Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 23019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,560
  • 1951-2015 Memory Eternal Uncle Roy--40 Days of Mourning.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #585 on: November 06, 2013, 05:16:18 PM »
On a related note, a man in Saudi Arabia divorces his wife for kissing a horse.

Source

Nice to know that the Saudis at least have a bit more sense and justification for divorce than we do in America...
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #586 on: November 06, 2013, 05:27:22 PM »
All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

So, yes, in some sense you are right that the prophets may be considered similarly, but in the wider view, and more importantly in keeping with historical Christian theology, there is one only eternal "kalimatullah", and that is Christ Jesus.


Al injil:

Quote from: John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He (John the Baptist/other prophets) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Quote from: 1 John 1
We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life— 2 this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— 3 we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 05:44:05 PM by Romaios »

Offline ZealousZeal

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,957
  • You talkin' to me?
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 05:34:55 PM by ZealousZeal »
"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #588 on: November 06, 2013, 05:48:19 PM »
"Can a man or woman communicate after performing the conjugal act over night?

Only in writing, to express complaints.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:07:50 PM by Romaios »

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #589 on: November 06, 2013, 05:59:37 PM »
Could you people get any more infantile?

Instead of actually discussing maximalism in Orthodoxy, you all just make implications about your opponent's penis, question his mental sanity, and then James runs in screaming bonzai.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #590 on: November 06, 2013, 06:05:21 PM »
So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

Coming from the self-described "inquirer"....

So is this one of the weeks where you don't self-identify as a misotheist?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,359
  • We must go back!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #591 on: November 06, 2013, 06:06:42 PM »
For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. (John 1:17)

 ::)

You've probably sacrificed a hecatomb of kittens to no avail already, eh?  :laugh:

Exactly. Why wouldn't Theophilos care about the kittens?
"Par ma foi! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien."
-Molière, The Middle-Class Gentleman.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,359
  • We must go back!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #592 on: November 06, 2013, 06:08:25 PM »
Exactly. Islam is also similar to Marcionism in that it is essentially anti-Jewish.

*facepalm*

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 06:08:42 PM by Cyrillic »
"Par ma foi! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien."
-Molière, The Middle-Class Gentleman.

Offline RehamG

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 276
    • Add me on FB
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #593 on: November 06, 2013, 06:15:37 PM »
As far as posting portions of the Quran, this is why I told Poppy to learn Arabic well enough to read it and understand. The Arabic language can't fully be translated to English so you will get one by one Author worded one way, and the next another due to transliteration. I thought someone would have cleared that bit up a while ago...maybe they did and I missed it. However I have no explanation for big discrepancies.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #594 on: November 06, 2013, 06:31:04 PM »
Why wouldn't Theophilos care about the kittens?

Muslims love them, Jews not so much:

Spanish-Jewish folklore recounts that Adam’s first wife, Lilith, became a black vampire cat, sucking the blood from sleeping babies. This may be the root of the superstition that a cat will smother a sleeping baby or suck out the child’s breath.

Also, the smell of cat's urine is a bad omen - demons, dybbuks.

The cat is also not mentioned explicitly in the Koran, although tafsīrs and ḥadīṯ frequently refer to it. According to Muslim mythology the cat was created on Noah’s Ark: Alarmed at the increasing number of mice Noah asked God for help; God ordered him to touch the lion’s head or rub its nostrils, whereupon the lion sneezed out a pair of cats (Jāḥeẓ, V, pp. 347-48; Baḷʿamī, ed. Bahār, I, pp. 140-41; Ḥoqūqī, III, p.25; Danhardt, I, pp. 271f.; Massé, p. 189; this myth may be at the root of the Persian folk belief that the cat is vain because it fell out of a lion’s nose, az damāḡ-e šīr oftāda; Hedāyat, pp.140-41; cf. Thompson, Motif A1811.2 “Creation of cat: Sneezed from lion’s nostrils”). In Islam the cat therefore carried good associations, and even the Prophet is said to have assigned the konya Abū Horayra to one of his companions whose affection for his pet kitten was well known. The Prophet’s affection for cats is also reflected in a tradition according to which he says about a woman who starved a cat to death that she would be punished in hell (Boḵārī, pp. 469-70; Ḥammām b. Monabbeh, p.36, trad. no. 89 and cf. pp. 389-90 for evidence from other ḥadīṯ compendia; Tūqadī, p. 103). Among the Sufis, Šeblī is said to have received divine forgiveness for his sins, not as a result of his piety but his kindness to a helpless kitten (Damīrī, II, p. 383). In Islam the cat, unlike the dog, is therefore also not considered to be “unclean.” According to a tradition traced to ʿĀyeša, the prophet’s wife, it is permissible to make ablutions with the water in a vessel from which a cat has already drunk (Ebn Māja, I, p. 131, trad. nos. 367-69). This is in stark contrast to the Zoroastrian belief that even if one were to wash a bowl from which a cat has eaten seven times it still would be unclean, that eating food touched by a cat’s whiskers will cause one to waste away, and that demons will enter a corpse seen by a cat (Boyce, Stronghold, p. 163 n. 51).

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #595 on: November 06, 2013, 06:34:45 PM »
As far as posting portions of the Quran, this is why I told Poppy to learn Arabic well enough to read it and understand. The Arabic language can't fully be translated to English so you will get one by one Author worded one way, and the next another due to transliteration. I thought someone would have cleared that bit up a while ago...maybe they did and I missed it. However I have no explanation for big discrepancies.

Have you learned Greek and Hebrew and Latin and Russian and well I think you get my point.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,028
  • "In those days I will pour out my Spirit..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #596 on: November 06, 2013, 07:02:15 PM »
Instead of actually discussing maximalism in Orthodoxy...

Which wasn't remotely a topic until you decided to make it one in your peculiar way.

Quote
...you all just make implications about your opponent's penis...

Whoa, where did that happen? 

Quote
...question his mental sanity, and then James runs in screaming bonzai.

If a kingdom is divided against itself...
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,692
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #597 on: November 06, 2013, 07:07:47 PM »
Could you people get any more infantile?

Instead of actually discussing maximalism in Orthodoxy, you all just make implications about your opponent's penis, question his mental sanity, and then James runs in screaming bonzai.
in those ethnic settings I am firsthand familiar with, orthodoxy isn't maximalist really. it's a very easy-going, here comes everybody, hands-off (no pun intended) religion. which makes me suspect it has a kernel of sanity to it .
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 07:08:17 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Theophilos78

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,043
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #598 on: November 06, 2013, 07:16:11 PM »
Exactly. Islam is also similar to Marcionism in that it is essentially anti-Jewish.

*facepalm*

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

Avoid false dilemmas and follow the third option: read that article.  ::)
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #599 on: November 06, 2013, 07:26:27 PM »
Instead of actually discussing maximalism in Orthodoxy...

Which wasn't remotely a topic until you decided to make it one in your peculiar way.

You made it a topic when you mentioned your prayer book with prayers for bathing. Unless you can't figure out what maximalism means.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,028
  • "In those days I will pour out my Spirit..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #600 on: November 06, 2013, 07:30:43 PM »
You made it a topic when you mentioned your prayer book with prayers for bathing. Unless you can't figure out what maximalism means.

No, I didn't make it a topic, I made it an example of the point I was making.  Unless you don't know how to read. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #601 on: November 06, 2013, 07:31:36 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #602 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:17 PM »
You made it a topic when you mentioned your prayer book with prayers for bathing. Unless you can't figure out what maximalism means.

No, I didn't make it a topic, I made it an example of the point I was making.  Unless you don't know how to read. 

Okay, so you don't have even the faintest idea of what you're talking about. Noted.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,028
  • "In those days I will pour out my Spirit..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #603 on: November 06, 2013, 07:39:00 PM »
Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

William,

You asked me a question, I answered it.  Your problem is that you didn't like the answer, think you know my thinking better than I do, and decided to keep pushing a point I never made in the first place.  That's why I insult you.  When you don't take yourself seriously, why should I?   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #604 on: November 06, 2013, 07:39:27 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts.  

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.      

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.      

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.

Dude you have to know when you are in above your head . . . You think of all people you would have gotten that lesson by now.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 07:40:25 PM by orthonorm »
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #605 on: November 06, 2013, 07:41:14 PM »
That's why I insult you.

Actually it's because you have no ability to discuss things like a rational person with any semblance of respect or civility.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #606 on: November 06, 2013, 07:43:32 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts.  

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.      

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.      

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.

Dude you have to know when you are in above your head . . . You think of all people you would have gotten that lesson by now.

Well you've consistently shown a complete lack of any sort of real understanding of Orthodoxy on this board, so I'll just ignore you.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #607 on: November 06, 2013, 07:44:44 PM »
Sometimes I wonder whether James'n'William aren't twins.  :-\

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #608 on: November 06, 2013, 07:48:08 PM »
On a related note, a man in Saudi Arabia divorces his wife for kissing a horse.

Source

Nice to know that the Saudis at least have a bit more sense and justification for divorce than we do in America...

James,

I've been remiss in mentioning, but your avatar is the greatest ever. I am telling you, it literally makes my day when I see it.

Keep up the good work. Despite what some might say, you have a very strong voice for such a young man with some substance to back it up. Unlike many young people around here, you speak from heart and gut and occasionally the mind (which is the least important in life) rather than trying to channel some weird confabulation of the din of middle aged, reactionary men which tends to pass for wisdom somehow around here.

Back to the show . . .
 
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline ZealousZeal

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,957
  • You talkin' to me?
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #609 on: November 06, 2013, 07:49:05 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

xOrthodox4Christx said: "The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine." This started the whole exchange, which Mor disagreed with and gave specific examples of prayers for various daily tasks and said "If we are more "liberal" about such things nowadays in 21st century America, then give thanks to God." He was not giving thanks to God himself, he was giving instruction to xOrthodox4Christx, a person who had already expressed his feelings that he doesn't like the idea of religious rituals for the minutiae of daily life. Are you familiar with an imperative sentence?
"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Offline Poppy

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,030
    • im the pretty one!!! lolOl
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #610 on: November 06, 2013, 07:49:10 PM »
Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.

This thread readers can only cope with English. Everything that isn't English, such as French or Latin, or maybe Greek or even Russian, needs to have additional translation beside it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 07:50:02 PM by Poppy »

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #612 on: November 06, 2013, 07:51:59 PM »
That's why I insult you.

Actually it's because you have no ability to discuss things like a rational person with any semblance of respect or civility.

When did you become Emily Post?

Really, it is sorta funny to see James butt heads with mor, cause I know James has a sense of humor and ain't gonna go nuclear when he inevitably gets bested, but you buddy concern me.

You might think about calming down. Mor is quite brilliant, well mannered, and well humored. I have no idea where you are coming from at times.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #613 on: November 06, 2013, 07:55:15 PM »

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #614 on: November 06, 2013, 07:56:10 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

xOrthodox4Christx said: "The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine." This started the whole exchange, which Mor disagreed with and gave specific examples of prayers for various daily tasks and said "If we are more "liberal" about such things nowadays in 21st century America, then give thanks to God." He was not giving thanks to God himself, he was giving instruction to xOrthodox4Christx, a person who had already expressed his feelings that he doesn't like the idea of religious rituals for the minutiae of daily life. Are you familiar with an imperative sentence?

Sheesh, not even I get upbraided by Zealous . . . and everyone knows I am a jerk. I dunno, when the most even tempered posters begin losing their nerve . . .
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #615 on: November 06, 2013, 08:01:03 PM »
http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-cats.html

This website...are you like the webmaster bro?

No way. I'm quite indifferent to cats...

Google came up with it.

"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #616 on: November 06, 2013, 08:02:11 PM »
http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-cats.html

This website...are you like the webmaster bro?

No way. I'm quite indifferent to cats...

Google came up with it.

"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

Try taking a vow of celibacy and see what happens.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #617 on: November 06, 2013, 08:03:36 PM »
http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-cats.html

This website...are you like the webmaster bro?

No way. I'm quite indifferent to cats...

Google came up with it.

"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

Try taking a vow of celibacy and see what happens.

I wondered if the advent of viagra allowed certain men to be able to finally join the ranks of such avowed men.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #618 on: November 06, 2013, 08:04:58 PM »
http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-cats.html

This website...are you like the webmaster bro?

No way. I'm quite indifferent to cats...

Google came up with it.

"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

Try taking a vow of celibacy and see what happens.

I wondered if the advent of viagra allowed certain men to be able to finally join the ranks of such avowed men.
Guardians of the harem beds in great Muslim empires were required to be “shaved,” which meant having both the testicles and penis removed.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #619 on: November 06, 2013, 08:05:27 PM »
http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-cats.html

This website...are you like the webmaster bro?

No way. I'm quite indifferent to cats...

Google came up with it.

"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

Technically, that's still required of Christian ministers too.

And rabbis never served in the Temple. (Some Jews would call their synagogues "temples", though).

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,028
  • "In those days I will pour out my Spirit..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #620 on: November 06, 2013, 08:06:08 PM »
"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

I'm reminded of the scene in The Borgias after Rodrigo is elected Pope.  They bring in some specially constructed stool so that he can sit down among the Cardinals and have his genitals verified manually.  I never thought I'd hear "Habet duos testiculos, bene pendentes" on any sort of TV.  It was a defining moment in my life, a moment where you know nothing will ever be the same again, and there's no going back to a more innocent time when you could believe that Popes were never voluntarily molested before assuming office.      
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #621 on: November 06, 2013, 08:06:46 PM »
Technically, that's still required of Christian ministers too.

And rabbis never served in the Temple. (Some Jews would call their synagogues "temples", though).
Romaios we should collaborate on a new random history and facts website.

I'll design the graphics!
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline newtoorthodoxy

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #622 on: November 06, 2013, 08:07:42 PM »
This thread was only started on October 20th, and it's got over 600 posts?  Are you serious?  I ain't reading from the beginning.  No way.
Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith.  Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #623 on: November 06, 2013, 08:08:15 PM »
"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

I'm reminded of the scene in The Borgias after Rodrigo is elected Pope.  They bring in some specially constructed stool so that he can sit down among the Cardinals and have his genitals verified manually.  I never thought I'd hear "Habet duos testiculos, bene pendentes" on any sort of TV.  It was a defining moment in my life, a moment where you know nothing will ever be the same again, and there's no going back to a more innocent time when you could believe that Popes were never voluntarily molested before assuming office.      

Did you see my comment / link of the betterness of Borgia over The Borgias?
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #624 on: November 06, 2013, 08:08:24 PM »
"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

I'm reminded of the scene in The Borgias after Rodrigo is elected Pope.  They bring in some specially constructed stool so that he can sit down among the Cardinals and have his genitals verified manually.  I never thought I'd hear "Habet duos testiculos, bene pendentes" on any sort of TV.  It was a defining moment in my life, a moment where you know nothing will ever be the same again, and there's no going back to a more innocent time when you could believe that Popes were never voluntarily molested before assuming office.      
Anybody want to do the punchline?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #625 on: November 06, 2013, 08:08:42 PM »
This thread was only started on October 20th, and it's got over 600 posts?  Are you serious?  I ain't reading from the beginning.  No way.

If you don't read the OP . . .
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline newtoorthodoxy

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #626 on: November 06, 2013, 08:09:07 PM »

I'm reminded of the scene in The Borgias after Rodrigo is elected Pope.  They bring in some specially constructed stool so that he can sit down among the Cardinals and have his genitals verified manually.  I never thought I'd hear "Habet duos testiculos, bene pendentes" on any sort of TV.  It was a defining moment in my life, a moment where you know nothing will ever be the same again, and there's no going back to a more innocent time when you could believe that Popes were never voluntarily molested before assuming office.  
   

It is impossible to now UNread that.  Thanks, Mor.  I'm scarred for life.
Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith.  Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,275
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #627 on: November 06, 2013, 08:09:33 PM »
"The Old Testament says, “He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.” Rabbis had to show those parts were in working order before they could lead a temple."

LOL!!

I'm reminded of the scene in The Borgias after Rodrigo is elected Pope.  They bring in some specially constructed stool so that he can sit down among the Cardinals and have his genitals verified manually.  I never thought I'd hear "Habet duos testiculos, bene pendentes" on any sort of TV.  It was a defining moment in my life, a moment where you know nothing will ever be the same again, and there's no going back to a more innocent time when you could believe that Popes were never voluntarily molested before assuming office.      
Anybody want to do the punchline?

Everything is a punchline and the jokes write themselves.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #628 on: November 06, 2013, 08:09:39 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.

Yes, that is what he said. If not I've given him ample opportunity to clarify himself and his response has been to, as is his usual, to insult me.

The church had a tradition to facilitate prayer without ceasing by encouraging a certain prayer while bathing. Nobody really actively encourages this tradition anymore, and Mor Ephrem is thankful to God because of this. He can only conceive of two options:

1. this tradition either being in complete disuse or
2. A cartoonish caricature where people are bullied and acid is thrown into people's face for not following said tradition.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

xOrthodox4Christx said: "The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine." This started the whole exchange, which Mor disagreed with and gave specific examples of prayers for various daily tasks and said "If we are more "liberal" about such things nowadays in 21st century America, then give thanks to God." He was not giving thanks to God himself, he was giving instruction to xOrthodox4Christx, a person who had already expressed his feelings that he doesn't like the idea of religious rituals for the minutiae of daily life. Are you familiar with an imperative sentence?

Then he went to talk about how it is a good thing, because otherwise people would be throwing acid in one's face (I'm still really confused about how that connection was made).

Thanks for replying substantively, though.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Romaios

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,933
Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #629 on: November 06, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »
Technically, that's still required of Christian ministers too.

And rabbis never served in the Temple. (Some Jews would call their synagogues "temples", though).
Romaios we should collaborate on a new random history and facts website.

 
Quote from: Apostolic Canons
Canon XXI.

An eunuch, if he has been made so by the violence of men [some mss. add: or if his virilia have been amputated] in times of persecution, or if he has been born so, if in other respects he is worthy, may be made a bishop.

Canon XXII.

He who has mutilated himself, cannot become a clergyman, for he is a self-murderer, and an enemy to the workmanship of God.

Canon XXIII.

If any man being a clergyman shall mutilate himself, let him be deposed, for he is a self-murderer.

Canon XXIV.

If a layman mutilate himself, let him be excommunicated for three years, as practising against his own life.

Source