Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 25081 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #540 on: November 06, 2013, 02:16:24 PM »
Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

Ahhhh. . . And you profess the mysteria of Orthodoxy?

I am not sure how much poppy knows about Islam but her most rabid detractors are showing some grave misunderstandings about Christianity not to mention Orthodoxy.

So are you honestly telling me that Orthodoxy controls how we have sex and how we go to the bathroom? Because Islam does. Ghusl is needed before and after any feces, urination and dealings with one's 'significant other'. Is such ritual washing inherently obligated by the Orthodox Church and it's Canon Law? Or for that matter, by Jesus Christ?

Does Jesus Christ honestly force us to ritually wash before and after we commit these activities?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:23:50 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #541 on: November 06, 2013, 02:29:30 PM »

You probably do this with your own scriptures as well.

Tu quoque is a logical fallacy.  :)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #542 on: November 06, 2013, 02:31:41 PM »

Marcionites. Muslims are Marcionites in that they disregard former revelations but they accept their own fabrications as revelation. Except that Muslims are far more Marcionite than Marcionites ever were.

Exactly. Islam is also similar to Marcionism in that it is essentially anti-Jewish.

Suggested reading: http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/gnostic_islamic_crucifixion.html
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #543 on: November 06, 2013, 02:36:26 PM »
Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

Ahhhh. . . And you profess the mysteria of Orthodoxy?

I am not sure how much poppy knows about Islam but her most rabid detractors are showing some grave misunderstandings about Christianity not to mention Orthodoxy.

So are you honestly telling me that Orthodoxy controls how we have sex and how we go to the bathroom? Because Islam does. Ghusl is needed before and after any feces, urination and dealings with one's 'significant other'. Is such ritual washing inherently obligated by the Orthodox Church and it's Canon Law? Or for that matter, by Jesus Christ?

Does Jesus Christ honestly force us to ritually wash before we commit these activities?

The main take-away, for me, in the above exchange is that you believe Islam encompasses all of the believer's life and activities, but supposedly (Orthodox) Christianity doesn't.  Well, no.  While (Orthodox) Christianity may not have a number of the same practices as Islam, we do have our own, and/or we have had similar practices in various times and places.  Are they ordained in Scripture?  Perhaps not, but we are not sola Scripturists either, so such things have been practiced and handed down as if part of the faith.  I have in my possession an Orthodox prayer book from the "old world" containing prayers

1.  upon waking
2.  before bathing
3.  while bathing
4.  before dressing
5.  while dressing

and on and on.  If we are more "liberal" about such things nowadays in 21st century America, then give thanks to God.  But it wasn't always that way, whether or not it was ever handed down from above, coming down from the Father of Lights.    

The idea that Christianity doesn't encompass a believer's entire life and activities is not Christianity, it's boutique religion.  It's Christianity as hobby.  Let us at least be honest about that.  

Regarding sex, I found Fr Sergei Sveshnikov's There is No Sex in the Church (scroll down to p. 61) rather interesting reading.  
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #544 on: November 06, 2013, 02:37:41 PM »
Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity?  

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

On the country, it stops us from being naive. Exactly because every area is covered it makes you have to consider it and to think hard about it. A lot of things are not fardh, something that is required, but sunnah, things the Prophet did from his life that we copy.

Nothing in Islam controls me. Many people think that especially of women. No man is telling me to wear abaya or niqab but I do. I took the decision to wear it,all black because of what I read in the Qur'an and recently I took the decision to wear something a little more colourful but still strictest modesty like the blessed Mary.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #545 on: November 06, 2013, 02:39:04 PM »
There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg oma subhana w ta 3la, just everything.

Fixed that for you.

 :D
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #546 on: November 06, 2013, 02:44:18 PM »

Nothing in Islam controls me. Many people think that especially of women. No man is telling me to wear abaya or niqab but I do. I took the decision to wear it,all black because of what I read in the Qur'an and recently I took the decision to wear something a little more colourful but still strictest modesty like the blessed Mary.

Why so? Aisha must be your primary model. The Qur'an said nothing about the way Amram's daughter and Aaron's sister Miryam got dressed.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #547 on: November 06, 2013, 03:00:10 PM »
Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity?  

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

Ahhhh. . . And you profess the mysteria of Orthodoxy?

I am not sure how much poppy knows about Islam but her most rabid detractors are showing some grave misunderstandings about Christianity not to mention Orthodoxy.

So are you honestly telling me that Orthodoxy controls how we have sex and how we go to the bathroom? Because Islam does. Ghusl is needed before and after any feces, urination and dealings with one's 'significant other'. Is such ritual washing inherently obligated by the Orthodox Church and it's Canon Law? Or for that matter, by Jesus Christ?

Does Jesus Christ honestly force us to ritually wash before we commit these activities?

The main take-away, for me, in the above exchange is that you believe Islam encompasses all of the believer's life and activities, but supposedly (Orthodox) Christianity doesn't.  Well, no.  While (Orthodox) Christianity may not have a number of the same practices as Islam, we do have our own, and/or we have had similar practices in various times and places.  Are they ordained in Scripture?  Perhaps not, but we are not sola Scripturists either, so such things have been practiced and handed down as if part of the faith.  I have in my possession an Orthodox prayer book from the "old world" containing prayers

1.  upon waking
2.  before bathing
3.  while bathing
4.  before dressing
5.  while dressing

and on and on.  If we are more "liberal" about such things nowadays in 21st century America, then give thanks to God.  But it wasn't always that way, whether or not it was ever handed down from above, coming down from the Father of Lights.    

The idea that Christianity doesn't encompass a believer's entire life and activities is not Christianity, it's boutique religion.  It's Christianity as hobby.  Let us at least be honest about that.  

Regarding sex, I found Fr Sergei Sveshnikov's There is No Sex in the Church (scroll down to p. 61) rather interesting reading.  

Thank you. The lists of seemingly insane behavior could go on forever for what was ostensibly Orthodoxy at various times. Sorry, I can't take the crypto-Protestant critique of Islam.

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:00:31 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #548 on: November 06, 2013, 03:04:31 PM »

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?


All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

Not if the Word pre-existed with God. (John 1:1) Are you saying Abraham pre-existed with God? (John 8:58)

Not that I take any of your posts too seriously given their content, but I must know, how does anything pre-exist, especially in the context you are using it.

Existence itself leads arguably to a Trinitarian understanding of God. I think you need to think a little more about what existence means and how a monadic God could exist before anything else.

That to me is the trouble with the Islamic understanding of God. Some Islamic philosophy has attempted to deal with the problem, foreshadowing some 20th century insights into ontology centuries earlier.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #549 on: November 06, 2013, 03:04:49 PM »
There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)



Ok, I'm not going to guess as to why The One True Allah might have did whatever He does do, as we already established that the ways of All Mighty Allah are different to ours, only to say that He gives signs,  He sends Prophets,peace and blessings to them, and He performs miracles.

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

If God is absolutely inscrutable, then how you can have any belief in God?

This goes to why you believe in God to begin with. That is the advent of revelation which is not necessarily and only rarely something which could be called a cognitive act.

So how does God reveal himself, his ways being not ours, such that those who are entirely other can encounter him in the first place?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #550 on: November 06, 2013, 03:05:46 PM »
If people are going to complain about my being cryptic and ignore clear posts, I'll show you what cryptic really is.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #551 on: November 06, 2013, 03:08:14 PM »
Existence itself leads arguably to a Trinitarian understanding of God. I think you need to think a little more about what existence means and how a monadic God could exist before anything else.

That to me is the trouble with the Islamic understanding of God. Some Islamic philosophy has attempted to deal with the problem, foreshadowing some 20th century insights into ontology centuries earlier.

Expand, s'il vous plaît?
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #552 on: November 06, 2013, 03:09:29 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #553 on: November 06, 2013, 03:35:19 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #554 on: November 06, 2013, 03:36:49 PM »

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?


All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

This is a very good point, and following Orthonorm's point about how it is in some sense inadequate to translate "Logos" as "word" due to the associations that that term has (and in fact there is a separate Greek word for the more technical, grammatical/linguistic sense that he points to -- lexis -- which in some sense frees us to think of "logos" philosophically), we should consider not only as "Word" in the sense of "message" (at which level you are absolutely right that other prophets are also a kind of "logos"), but also in terms traced to the Hellenic Jews who preceded the Christians in places like Alexandria, as these were likely the antecedents to the development of a specifically Christian theology regarding this term. Philo (20 BC-50 AD), for instance, identified the Logos with God's creative power (perhaps similar to what the Eastern Orthodox would call His energies, i.e., the way He works within creation). Others identify the logos with divine reason, following more closely the Stoics. All of these are acceptable and they are all in some sense correct -- God is, after all, never without His creative power (recall how in the Qur'an, God says "be!" and it is), nor His reason.

So you're not wrong here, either, it's just that there's more to it than that. It's an idea that encompasses all that came before it, and indeed probably goes further than even Philo did, in identifying all of these senses of Logos with one incarnate person (having lived before the incarnation and died only shortly after St. Mark brought the message of Christianity to Alexandria, Philo obviously would not have thought to apply it in that sense, although he certainly had no problem adopting the term to talk about God, and Christians have done nothing else). Following the above, in Christian usage it appears common to relate the logos to the permanence and/or preexistence of God, and hence the permanence and/or preexistence of Christ, as in the fraction prayer for the apostles fast and feast, which begins by addressing Christ: "You are the Logos of the Father, the God before all ages"

There is a danger in thinking of these concepts in one sense only, which really restricts our view. As early as the first century after Christ, Christian writers such as Justin Martyr (d. 165) were writing about the concept of the "spermatikos logos" -- "the Word in seed form" -- to argue that there is a 'seed' of the true revelation of God in all non-Christian religions. For Christians, that revelation is obviously complete and perfect in Jesus Christ, but we follow Justin Martyr in affirming this too. I bring this up to show that this is yet another level at which the Word can be affirmed, without claiming anything about the prophets of these various religions being "Word made flesh", as we do not affirm their religions in themselves (think of this as similar to the Muslim stance that not everything in Christianity is wrong, but Christianity itself is).

So, yes, in some sense you are right that the prophets may be considered similarly, but in the wider view, and more importantly in keeping with historical Christian theology, there is one only eternal "kalimatullah", and that is Christ Jesus.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #555 on: November 06, 2013, 03:37:45 PM »
Existence itself leads arguably to a Trinitarian understanding of God. I think you need to think a little more about what existence means and how a monadic God could exist before anything else.

That to me is the trouble with the Islamic understanding of God. Some Islamic philosophy has attempted to deal with the problem, foreshadowing some 20th century insights into ontology centuries earlier.

Expand, s'il vous plaît?

In few words?

Existence means to stand outside, thus suggesting an already transcendent structure to it.

How can one being ever stand outside of itself. The ex is more than outside it has IMHO a more directional aspect. So it is more a standing out towards. Towards what if nothing else exists?

One could argue that a diad could solve this problem, but as I said arguably and this is quick and "straight forward" which is the end of thinking frankly.

One could argue God doesn't exist as such and avoid the problem in that manner. Which is what Muslims and Orthodox ends doing at times.

Hope that is helpful.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:38:54 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline William

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #556 on: November 06, 2013, 03:57:08 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #557 on: November 06, 2013, 04:03:57 PM »
Mor, why do you say "give thanks to God" that modern Orthodoxy is not all-encompassing, and then in your next few sentences identify such with "boutique religion"?

I directed those remarks toward someone who seems to argue that Christianity is not as "in your business" as Islam.  Actually, Christianity is very much "in your business", but the "how" and "in what way" and "to what extent" has differed over the course of time and in various contexts. 

If, as we have received her faith and praxis, the Church hasn't dogmatised one or the other form of such "meddling" and mandated obligatory participation for all, then such a person as I was responding to ought to thank God that there is "freedom" in his time and context.  In another time and place, the kind of religion he decries would've been the only option if he wanted to be Orthodox, and he might not have known any better anyway.  If some people in other Christian denominations or other religions are in that situation today, I don't think we have the right to criticise.  There but for the grace of God went we.     

Moreover, I think we can all thank God that the Church "in-real-life" is not going to enable community enforcers to harass, punish, and hurt members for not following such strictures (the Church "on-the-internet", on the other hand, is full of such self-appointed characters).  For particularly weighty violations, there are communal consequences, but most "violations" are at most dealt with in the context of confession but typically are dealt with by letting people participate as they are able and minding one's own business.  I've yet to have acid thrown in my face because I don't recite verses from Psalm 50 while in the shower just because a prayer book somewhere says to do so because otherwise I might sensually focus on my nakedness.     

So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

That's not what he said.  Besides, you should be praying unceasingly, which includes while bathing.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #558 on: November 06, 2013, 04:15:16 PM »
Maybe Christian vs. Muslim bathroom habits are better left to another thread? I mean, it's pretty silly to make the point that Christianity does not codify rules regarding such minutiae and then spend subsequent posts arguing over the same.

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #559 on: November 06, 2013, 04:22:11 PM »
So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #560 on: November 06, 2013, 04:25:44 PM »
So are you honestly telling me that Orthodoxy controls how we have sex...

"Can a man or woman communicate after performing the conjugal act over night?
Answer. No.  1 Cor. vii. 5."


Source

Let Canon law speak for itself...
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #561 on: November 06, 2013, 04:37:10 PM »
Let Canon law speak for itself...

Better canon law than you...at least canon law knows what it's talking about.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #562 on: November 06, 2013, 04:39:48 PM »
Maybe Christian vs. Muslim bathroom habits are better left to another thread? I mean, it's pretty silly to make the point that Christianity does not codify rules regarding such minutiae and then spend subsequent posts arguing over the same.

Maybe, but when someone who is actively attempting to apologize for Christianity is speaking in obvious ignorance, they are doing Christianity more harm than good.

Poppy is not an idiot and the gotcha apologetics ain't going to work.

You and mina are doing a fine job. Let the OOs take over everything I say.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #563 on: November 06, 2013, 04:40:37 PM »
So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #564 on: November 06, 2013, 04:42:23 PM »
William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

If that's what little Willy likes.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #565 on: November 06, 2013, 04:42:35 PM »

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?


All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

This is a very good point, and following Orthonorm's point about how it is in some sense inadequate to translate "Logos" as "word" due to the associations that that term has (and in fact there is a separate Greek word for the more technical, grammatical/linguistic sense that he points to -- lexis -- which in some sense frees us to think of "logos" philosophically), we should consider not only as "Word" in the sense of "message" (at which level you are absolutely right that other prophets are also a kind of "logos"), but also in terms traced to the Hellenic Jews who preceded the Christians in places like Alexandria, as these were likely the antecedents to the development of a specifically Christian theology regarding this term. Philo (20 BC-50 AD), for instance, identified the Logos with God's creative power (perhaps similar to what the Eastern Orthodox would call His energies, i.e., the way He works within creation). Others identify the logos with divine reason, following more closely the Stoics. All of these are acceptable and they are all in some sense correct -- God is, after all, never without His creative power (recall how in the Qur'an, God says "be!" and it is), nor His reason.

So you're not wrong here, either, it's just that there's more to it than that. It's an idea that encompasses all that came before it, and indeed probably goes further than even Philo did, in identifying all of these senses of Logos with one incarnate person (having lived before the incarnation and died only shortly after St. Mark brought the message of Christianity to Alexandria, Philo obviously would not have thought to apply it in that sense, although he certainly had no problem adopting the term to talk about God, and Christians have done nothing else). Following the above, in Christian usage it appears common to relate the logos to the permanence and/or preexistence of God, and hence the permanence and/or preexistence of Christ, as in the fraction prayer for the apostles fast and feast, which begins by addressing Christ: "You are the Logos of the Father, the God before all ages"

There is a danger in thinking of these concepts in one sense only, which really restricts our view. As early as the first century after Christ, Christian writers such as Justin Martyr (d. 165) were writing about the concept of the "spermatikos logos" -- "the Word in seed form" -- to argue that there is a 'seed' of the true revelation of God in all non-Christian religions. For Christians, that revelation is obviously complete and perfect in Jesus Christ, but we follow Justin Martyr in affirming this too. I bring this up to show that this is yet another level at which the Word can be affirmed, without claiming anything about the prophets of these various religions being "Word made flesh", as we do not affirm their religions in themselves (think of this as similar to the Muslim stance that not everything in Christianity is wrong, but Christianity itself is).

So, yes, in some sense you are right that the prophets may be considered similarly, but in the wider view, and more importantly in keeping with historical Christian theology, there is one only eternal "kalimatullah", and that is Christ Jesus.


This is fine stuff. Not too hifalutin. Not too dumbed down. I really think mina had a point about not getting too technical, but I think his post was couched in a less than felicitous manner.

Your post seems to strike the happy medium for what would pass for serious apologetics on this forum and in this thread.

Well done.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #566 on: November 06, 2013, 04:45:27 PM »
William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

If that's what little Willy likes.

Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #567 on: November 06, 2013, 04:47:52 PM »
Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.

That conflict is in your own head.  Perhaps there are others in there keeping it company.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #568 on: November 06, 2013, 04:49:52 PM »

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?


All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

This is a very good point, and following Orthonorm's point about how it is in some sense inadequate to translate "Logos" as "word" due to the associations that that term has (and in fact there is a separate Greek word for the more technical, grammatical/linguistic sense that he points to -- lexis -- which in some sense frees us to think of "logos" philosophically), we should consider not only as "Word" in the sense of "message" (at which level you are absolutely right that other prophets are also a kind of "logos"), but also in terms traced to the Hellenic Jews who preceded the Christians in places like Alexandria, as these were likely the antecedents to the development of a specifically Christian theology regarding this term. Philo (20 BC-50 AD), for instance, identified the Logos with God's creative power (perhaps similar to what the Eastern Orthodox would call His energies, i.e., the way He works within creation). Others identify the logos with divine reason, following more closely the Stoics. All of these are acceptable and they are all in some sense correct -- God is, after all, never without His creative power (recall how in the Qur'an, God says "be!" and it is), nor His reason.

So you're not wrong here, either, it's just that there's more to it than that. It's an idea that encompasses all that came before it, and indeed probably goes further than even Philo did, in identifying all of these senses of Logos with one incarnate person (having lived before the incarnation and died only shortly after St. Mark brought the message of Christianity to Alexandria, Philo obviously would not have thought to apply it in that sense, although he certainly had no problem adopting the term to talk about God, and Christians have done nothing else). Following the above, in Christian usage it appears common to relate the logos to the permanence and/or preexistence of God, and hence the permanence and/or preexistence of Christ, as in the fraction prayer for the apostles fast and feast, which begins by addressing Christ: "You are the Logos of the Father, the God before all ages"

There is a danger in thinking of these concepts in one sense only, which really restricts our view. As early as the first century after Christ, Christian writers such as Justin Martyr (d. 165) were writing about the concept of the "spermatikos logos" -- "the Word in seed form" -- to argue that there is a 'seed' of the true revelation of God in all non-Christian religions. For Christians, that revelation is obviously complete and perfect in Jesus Christ, but we follow Justin Martyr in affirming this too. I bring this up to show that this is yet another level at which the Word can be affirmed, without claiming anything about the prophets of these various religions being "Word made flesh", as we do not affirm their religions in themselves (think of this as similar to the Muslim stance that not everything in Christianity is wrong, but Christianity itself is).

So, yes, in some sense you are right that the prophets may be considered similarly, but in the wider view, and more importantly in keeping with historical Christian theology, there is one only eternal "kalimatullah", and that is Christ Jesus.


This is fine stuff. Not too hifalutin. Not too dumbed down. I really think mina had a point about not getting too technical, but I think his post was couched in a less than felicitous manner.

Your post seems to strike the happy medium for what would pass for serious apologetics on this forum and in this thread.

Well done.

You know, I think should be nominated for template of the year or something.

EDIT: uhh Jeremy's post, not mine, obviously.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 04:50:25 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #569 on: November 06, 2013, 04:56:03 PM »
That conflict is in your own head.  Perhaps there are others in there keeping it company.

At least he has something in his head that doesn't involve merging two into one.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #570 on: November 06, 2013, 04:57:00 PM »
Let Canon law speak for itself...

Better canon law than you...at least canon law knows what it's talking about.

I find your personification amusing
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #571 on: November 06, 2013, 04:58:20 PM »
William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

If that's what little Willy likes.

Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.

The false dichotomy creeps its head again
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #572 on: November 06, 2013, 04:59:27 PM »
That conflict is in your own head.  Perhaps there are others in there keeping it company.

At least he has something in his head that doesn't involve merging two into one.

uh oh, JamesR's thymos has been kindled!

Nice knowing you, mor . . .
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #573 on: November 06, 2013, 05:00:01 PM »
William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

If that's what little Willy likes.

Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.

The false dichotomy creeps its head again

Awww, a tag team, that's so adorable!
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #574 on: November 06, 2013, 05:00:13 PM »
Does Jesus Christ honestly force us to ritually wash before and after we commit these activities?

Sure; if you replace "ritual washing" with prostrations, prayer intervals, and Confession.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #575 on: November 06, 2013, 05:01:32 PM »
That conflict is in your own head.  Perhaps there are others in there keeping it company.

At least he has something in his head that doesn't involve merging two into one.

So what's your excuse?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #576 on: November 06, 2013, 05:02:32 PM »
uh oh, JamesR's thymos has been kindled!

Nice knowing you, mor . . .

Forgive me, a sinner.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #577 on: November 06, 2013, 05:03:15 PM »
William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

If that's what little Willy likes.

Apparently it's what you like, since you're unable to conceive of a medium between laissez faire spirituality and getting your face melted.

The false dichotomy creeps its head again

Awww, a tag team, that's so adorable!

Similar to those dreadlocks and Rasta man externals that adorn OO Priests; very adorable indeed, depending on who you ask.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #578 on: November 06, 2013, 05:05:39 PM »
That conflict is in your own head.  Perhaps there are others in there keeping it company.

At least he has something in his head that doesn't involve merging two into one.

So what's your excuse?

My excuse? I think everyone here is full of dung. No one here has said anything productive save a select few posters who are getting drowned out by pseudo internet rhetoric, lousy overused apologetics, and logical error.

You and William ought to play nice with each other; you're both full of dung for the most part. I at least emptied mine out this morning, speaking of Islamic bathroom habits…

RETRACTED

--Mina (11/11/13)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:45:41 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #579 on: November 06, 2013, 05:05:48 PM »
Similar to those dreadlocks and Rasta man externals that adorn OO Priests; very adorable indeed, depending on who you ask.

I like you, James.  
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #580 on: November 06, 2013, 05:06:46 PM »
My excuse? I think everyone here is full of dung. No one here has said anything productive save a select few posters who are getting drowned out by pseudo internet rhetoric, lousy overused apologetics, and logical error.

You and William ought to play nice with each other; you're both full of dung for the most part. I at least emptied mine out this morning, speaking of Islamic bathroom habits...

I spoke too soon.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #581 on: November 06, 2013, 05:06:51 PM »
So you think it's a good thing that modernization has brought the church to the point where it does not encourage one to pray while bathing.

William, what you do with yourself in the shower is your business. 

So Protestantism.

Coming from the self-described "inquirer"....
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #582 on: November 06, 2013, 05:10:08 PM »
I find it funny that many of the folks posting threads being rather kind towards Islam are pretty harsh towards Protestantism and Roman Catholicsim. Gives me alot of food for thought.

PP

I find even more amusing that the people who are harsh to Islam are often kind and tolerant toward Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #583 on: November 06, 2013, 05:10:33 PM »
My excuse? I think everyone here is full of dung. No one here has said anything productive save a select few posters who are getting drowned out by pseudo internet rhetoric, lousy overused apologetics, and logical error.

You and William ought to play nice with each other; you're both full of dung for the most part. I at least emptied mine out this morning, speaking of Islamic bathroom habits...

I spoke too soon.

Mor you know I think you are awesome and stuff, but if it comes down to you or JamesR, sorry brah, man . . .
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #584 on: November 06, 2013, 05:16:05 PM »
Mor you know I think you are awesome and stuff, but if it comes down to you or JamesR, sorry brah, man . . .

De gustibus...  Nevertheless, I respect you.   
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