I thank you for your long reply back to me dzheremi. First I just want to make clear that what I wrote was to sister Poppy and not trying to make waves on here with others
Understood. We're just exchanging ideas over here.
It is not my plan or intention to argue you or Poppy or anybody in or out of anything.
I think for us to talk about where I'm coming from we would need to start at the main split which is you as a Christian feel that all is born into sin where as me from a Jewish now Muslim background I would not agree man is not born into sin just cause he is of flesh. that's where we would have to start from.
Actually, I think we are not different in this. Perhaps you had Roman Catholics or other Western Christians in mind. As I have been taught the Orthodox faith, what was emphasized to me in the very allegorical reading of Genesis and the fall that is apparently common to our tradition is that all are born into a world that is affected by sin, and thus our inheritance is one of mortality
, rather than sin itself. This might seem arcane, but think of it maybe like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or something: The baby did not drink, but because its mother did, it is born with the effects of those choices just the same. So I would not say people are "born into sin" if that means in any way a kind of guilt
from which they must be redeemed, as though they are personally sinful. I look at a newborn baby and see...well, a baby. I know the baby will die some day, as that is part of sharing the one human nature, but I don't say "that baby is sinful; that baby will die because of its sin." Nobody is personally guilty for whatever someone else has done, but there may still be effects of that sin, as no sin is truly self-contained if considered at this level (if it were, why do Islamic societies have laws based on the Qur'an which curtail certain personal choices on the basis that allowing them would "spread mischief in the land", as I have read it translated?).
So I don't think there's a "split" here so much as perhaps a misunderstanding of what Christianity (or at least non-Western Christianity) means when talking about human sinfulness.
Once you look at it from my view point then there is no need for a blood Savior or Allah (swt) to kill anyone for sin.
Yes, but did you catch the quotation from St. Athanasius in my post? We recognize that this is not a "need-based" action, insofar as God could have accomplished the same end via some other means. Now, the fact that Jesus Christ was incarnate and crucified and died is not therefore irrelevant (far from it, for many reasons I won't go into because this thread is not about that), but I mean conceptually...at a bird's eye level, if you will, there is nothing to stop us from saying together with St. Athanasius that salvation history could have been effected differently. It is rather, as I wrote previously, a matter of respecting God's prerogative.
Allah (swt)looks over your sins as long as you repent feel guilty and ask for Allah (swt) help in not doing it again.
This too is not substantially different than Christianity, though it is interesting to see that you have written "repent and feel guilty" in light of your earlier contention that non-Muslims are in their religion because of feelings.
I would say that in Orthodox Christianity (as well as in Roman Catholicism and some traditional forms of Protestantism) this is essentially the "lead up" to confession, which is lacking in both Islam and many types of Christianity, so in that way we have some more tools or what have you to deal with the problem of sin, but...yeah...it's still not substantially different, in that the penitent must of course repent, feel guilty, and ask God's help to change their life and behavior. So far it looks as though Islam and Christianity are more alike than you think...
Islam is the same message as what was giving form before repent don't give your worship to other things other than the one true God. Seek him for everything and Allah (swt) will save you and do as he ask you to live. It's not that hard in Islam a smile to another person is worship unto Allah)swt) feeding a homeless person worship unto Allah (swt) your whole reason for being here is to give your worship and call others to the one true God nothing else matters.
This too, save for the stuff about Islam being the same message as what was given before. You sure you're not an evangelist?
Christians are not the first ones with man/god people look at Pharaoh of Egypt he was to them a man/god what did Allah (swt) do to him? Sunk him in the sea. and Many others after pharaoh. Jesus (PBUH) came with the same message repent and turn back to your Lord and do His laws. That was the whole message.
It may interest you to know that when Christianity came to Egypt, the native Egyptians did indeed adopt it with vigor in part because of the preparation that their earlier religions gave them to accept certain ideas, including the incarnation and the Holy Trinity. Being in the Egyptian Orthodox Church myself (though not an ethnic Egyptian, so I'll leave it to my Coptic brothers and sisters to add their voices on this point, either in correction or elaboration, if they want to), I can say from first hand knowledge gained during my catechesis that this is not something that Egyptian Christians deny or shy away from. They are in fact quite proud to be among the first people's outside of Palestine and its surroundings to accept Christianity, and they did not abandon their native culture with it (well, the Coptic Orthodox didn't, anyway). This does not mean, however, and has never meant, that Christianity is somehow wholly derivative of or dependent upon earlier pagan mythology. Frankly, as a Muslim this is not a place where you should want to go just to repeat tired Zeitgeist
-level accusations which are easily proven wrong or at best wildly exaggerated. There are many, many works to be consulted about the origins of the Qur'an which show it to be very much a work of its time and place, which -- given the idea enshrined in Islamic orthodoxy of its textural incorruption and otherworldly origins -- do much more to explode the myths surrounding Islam than any such attempts by Muslims (for 1400 years and counting!) to discount Christianity could ever do. And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh
(not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?