Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?

[jewish voice]

The thing is people only look and view things through the lens of what we are brought up with. It takes people a lot of work to view things out side that lens.

Like many people here, I was not brought up in or around Orthodox Christianity.

To this day I can't make heads or tails of the trinity I'm not going to lie. I have talked to all kinds of different Christians to find out the answers no matter what they bring to me just don't get it.

This makes me wonder about the god of Islam. The Muslims I know seem fine admitting that he is beyond their comprehension, but some converts (to all religions) seem to be really bothered by what they can't understand, as though the things that all the faithful of all ages have grappled with should be made clear to them now before they can have faith, for some reason. If Islam's Allah is to be a reasonable God for a reasonable people, then why end everything with "Allah 'alem" (God knows), as though you haven't figured it out? From a Christian perspective, it just seems weird that Muslims would go on and on about "God knows" and "If God wills" and "There is none like Him" and all that, but then when we say "Yes! Exactly! None is like the Holy Trinity!", they back up and go "Heyyy...hold on a minute...we didn't mean that...I mean, that's unreasonable! It is beneath God that He should have a son!"

So you are left in a very strange conceptual space where you have to say "It's not that he couldn't do it, it's that there wouldn't be need for Him to do it", as though God operates based on some perceived 'need'. Other Christians like to spin their wheels in alternative universes, too, also for the sake of making what actually happened anything but the focus of the discussion. God could've come to earth as a 500 foot-tall jello mold piloting a spaceship covered in Christmas lights, but He didn't. Now who's doing more to disrespect God's majesty or whatever by saying "He didn't need to do this", or "It's beneath Him that this would happen"? If the things you are objecting to are things He already did, then why does He need your armchair quarterbacking 600 years after the fact, or today, or ever? So long as we're going base what we can accept based on what we hypothesize about what God would need, we might as well mention what He doesn't. And Christianity certainly had that covered long before Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islam ever existed: "You are my Lord; You have no need of my goodness." (St. Augustine, Confessions)

So it is telling to me, in this context, that Poppy has written elsewhere that in Islam the goal is that your good deeds outweigh your bad (or some such; sorry, Poppy...this thread is moving too fast for me to recall the exact quote). And this connects to the incarnation and the crucifixion and the resurrection, all of these. They're nothing He needed to do. They're nothing we made Him do. They're what He did, and I respect His prerogatives as God.

To me I use this pc here and I don't have to become a pc to understand how it works and what it does. Allah (swt) made me so I don't think that its not he couldn't become man but there is no need for Allah (swt)to become man.

Ah, but see above. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the incarnation. Rather, as St. Gregory teaches us, that which is not assumed is not healed. That God should want to save us from the devil is not a foreign concept in Islam, is it? I have heard with my own ears Muslims pray to Allah for protection against the devil. And who among us, Christian or Muslim, would dare to face the demons without calling on divine assistance? The difference, of course, is that in Christianity that salvation was incarnated in the God-man Jesus Christ, such was His love for us and desire to save us from eternal damnation. Could he have done so some other way? Sure. St. Athanasius the Apostolic says nothing less in his treatise on the Incarnation: "He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body [...] This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die..."

The analogy with the computer is a little odd. It would seem to reduce the Lord to a purely tactile creature, as though He could not understand His creation if He did not become part of it. Heaven forbid! It is because He understands our plight that He willed Himself to go through it to the utmost, beyond what any of us could do, and came to us as a servant, trampling down death by death and restoring life to those in the tombs.

I know most here don't try to view it as we do or even try cause they go by what feels good on the inside.

This is needlessly insulting, don't you think? I was not a fan earlier in the thread when someone here insinuated that love of a Muslim man was behind Poppy's conversion to Islam, and I am not a fan now when you presuppose that Christians adhere to their religion because it "feels good on the inside". You are not made out of different stuff than the rest of humanity, Muslim Voice. I don't know if you got some sort of Secret Club decoder ring down at the masjid so that only you and other Muslims really understand what religion is about, but whatever it is, you're fooling yourself if you think other people are driven by emotionalism, but neophyte Muslims such as yourself have it all figured out by logic and reason. We're all people, and chances are you ended up in Islam because you find it true, no different than how converts to other religions (including from Islam) find their new religions.

Tons of people die everyday don't mean I get saved from it does it.

And none of those tons of people are Jesus Christ.

Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing.

If you are meaning to allude to his first epistle to the Corinthians, the wording is "if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty" (15:14; emphasis mine). It is in answer to those who would deny the resurrection of the dead (see the immediately preceding verses), as there was some controversy among the various communities on this point. It does not deny either the divinity of Christ nor His resurrection, but says, in effect, "if you do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, our faith is meaningless". Seeing as how Islam believes in the resurrection of the dead (yawm el-qiyama and whatnot), this is an odd matter for a Muslim to bring up as though it provides some defense for their religion.

Though I suppose it is interesting to see a Muslim finally say that they agree with St. Paul on something. I never thought I would live to see the day.

I thank you for your long reply back to me dzheremi. First I just want to make clear that what I wrote was to sister Poppy and not trying to make waves on here with others I think for us to talk about where I'm coming from we would need to start at the main split which is you as a Christian feel that all is born into sin where as me from a Jewish now Muslim background I would not agree man is not born into sin just cause he is of flesh. that's where we would have to start from. Once you look at it from my view point then there is no need for a blood Savior or Allah (swt) to kill anyone for sin. Allah (swt)looks over your sins as long as you repent feel guilty and ask for Allah (swt) help in not doing it again. Islam is the same message as what was giving form before repent don't give your worship to other things other than the one true God. Seek him for everything and Allah (swt) will save you and do as he ask you to live. It's not that hard in Islam a smile to another person is worship unto Allah)swt) feeding a homeless person worship unto Allah (swt) your whole reason for being here is to give your worship and call others to the one true God nothing else matters. Christians are not the first ones with man/god people look at Pharaoh of Egypt he was to them a man/god what did Allah (swt) do to him? Sunk him in the sea. and Many others after pharaoh. Jesus (PBUH) came with the same message repent and turn back to your Lord and do His laws. That was the whole message.

[dzheremi]

I thank you for your long reply back to me dzheremi. First I just want to make clear that what I wrote was to sister Poppy and not trying to make waves on here with others

Understood. We're just exchanging ideas over here. It is not my plan or intention to argue you or Poppy or anybody in or out of anything.

I think for us to talk about where I'm coming from we would need to start at the main split which is you as a Christian feel that all is born into sin where as me from a Jewish now Muslim background I would not agree man is not born into sin just cause he is of flesh. that's where we would have to start from.

Actually, I think we are not different in this. Perhaps you had Roman Catholics or other Western Christians in mind. As I have been taught the Orthodox faith, what was emphasized to me in the very allegorical reading of Genesis and the fall that is apparently common to our tradition is that all are born into a world that is affected by sin, and thus our inheritance is one of mortality, rather than sin itself. This might seem arcane, but think of it maybe like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or something: The baby did not drink, but because its mother did, it is born with the effects of those choices just the same. So I would not say people are "born into sin" if that means in any way a kind of guilt from which they must be redeemed, as though they are personally sinful. I look at a newborn baby and see...well, a baby. I know the baby will die some day, as that is part of sharing the one human nature, but I don't say "that baby is sinful; that baby will die because of its sin." Nobody is personally guilty for whatever someone else has done, but there may still be effects of that sin, as no sin is truly self-contained if considered at this level (if it were, why do Islamic societies have laws based on the Qur'an which curtail certain personal choices on the basis that allowing them would "spread mischief in the land", as I have read it translated?).

So I don't think there's a "split" here so much as perhaps a misunderstanding of what Christianity (or at least non-Western Christianity) means when talking about human sinfulness.

Once you look at it from my view point then there is no need for a blood Savior or Allah (swt) to kill anyone for sin.

Yes, but did you catch the quotation from St. Athanasius in my post? We recognize that this is not a "need-based" action, insofar as God could have accomplished the same end via some other means. Now, the fact that Jesus Christ was incarnate and crucified and died is not therefore irrelevant (far from it, for many reasons I won't go into because this thread is not about that), but I mean conceptually...at a bird's eye level, if you will, there is nothing to stop us from saying together with St. Athanasius that salvation history could have been effected differently. It is rather, as I wrote previously, a matter of respecting God's prerogative.

Allah (swt)looks over your sins as long as you repent feel guilty and ask for Allah (swt) help in not doing it again.

This too is not substantially different than Christianity, though it is interesting to see that you have written "repent and feel guilty" in light of your earlier contention that non-Muslims are in their religion because of feelings. I would say that in Orthodox Christianity (as well as in Roman Catholicism and some traditional forms of Protestantism) this is essentially the "lead up" to confession, which is lacking in both Islam and many types of Christianity, so in that way we have some more tools or what have you to deal with the problem of sin, but...yeah...it's still not substantially different, in that the penitent must of course repent, feel guilty, and ask God's help to change their life and behavior. So far it looks as though Islam and Christianity are more alike than you think... 

Islam is the same message as what was giving form before repent don't give your worship to other things other than the one true God. Seek him for everything and Allah (swt) will save you and do as he ask you to live. It's not that hard in Islam a smile to another person is worship unto Allah)swt) feeding a homeless person worship unto Allah (swt) your whole reason for being here is to give your worship and call others to the one true God nothing else matters.

This too, save for the stuff about Islam being the same message as what was given before. You sure you're not an evangelist?

Christians are not the first ones with man/god people look at Pharaoh of Egypt he was to them a man/god what did Allah (swt) do to him? Sunk him in the sea. and Many others after pharaoh. Jesus (PBUH) came with the same message repent and turn back to your Lord and do His laws. That was the whole message.

It may interest you to know that when Christianity came to Egypt, the native Egyptians did indeed adopt it with vigor in part because of the preparation that their earlier religions gave them to accept certain ideas, including the incarnation and the Holy Trinity. Being in the Egyptian Orthodox Church myself (though not an ethnic Egyptian, so I'll leave it to my Coptic brothers and sisters to add their voices on this point, either in correction or elaboration, if they want to), I can say from first hand knowledge gained during my catechesis that this is not something that Egyptian Christians deny or shy away from. They are in fact quite proud to be among the first people's outside of Palestine and its surroundings to accept Christianity, and they did not abandon their native culture with it (well, the Coptic Orthodox didn't, anyway). This does not mean, however, and has never meant, that Christianity is somehow wholly derivative of or dependent upon earlier pagan mythology. Frankly, as a Muslim this is not a place where you should want to go just to repeat tired Zeitgeist-level accusations which are easily proven wrong or at best wildly exaggerated. There are many, many works to be consulted about the origins of the Qur'an which show it to be very much a work of its time and place, which -- given the idea enshrined in Islamic orthodoxy of its textural incorruption and otherworldly origins -- do much more to explode the myths surrounding Islam than any such attempts by Muslims (for 1400 years and counting!) to discount Christianity could ever do. And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?

[Poppy]

it just seems weird that Muslims would go on and on about "God knows" and "If God wills" and "There is none like Him" and all that, but then when we say "Yes! Exactly! None is like the Holy Trinity!", they back up and go "Heyyy...hold on a minute...we didn't mean that...I mean, that's unreasonable! It is beneath God that He should have a son!"

So you are left in a very strange conceptual space where you have to say "It's not that he couldn't do it, it's that there wouldn't be need for Him to do it", as though God operates based on some perceived 'need'. Other Christians like to spin their wheels in alternative universes, too, also for the sake of making what actually happened anything but the focus of the discussion. God could've come to earth as a 500 foot-tall jello mold piloting a spaceship covered in Christmas lights, but He didn't. Now who's doing more to disrespect God's majesty or whatever by saying "He didn't need to do this", or "It's beneath Him that this would happen"? If the things you are objecting to are things He already did, then why does He need your armchair quarterbacking 600 years after the fact, or today, or ever? So long as we're going base what we can accept based on what we hypothesize about what God would need, we might as well mention what He doesn't. And Christianity certainly had that covered long before Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islam ever existed: "You are my Lord; You have no need of my goodness." (St. Augustine, Confessions)

So it is telling to me, in this context, that Poppy has written elsewhere that in Islam the goal is that your good deeds outweigh your bad (or some such; sorry, Poppy...this thread is moving too fast for me to recall the exact quote). And this connects to the incarnation and the crucifixion and the resurrection, all of these. They're nothing He needed to do. They're nothing we made Him do. They're what He did, and I respect His prerogatives as God.

For me,it's not a question of what Allah,subhana w ta 3la, could or could not do. I'm like,what is more likely - as if anyone can know the mind of God to even figure that out uh.

That's what I meant about Islam being for all, not just a select few that can mentally get their head around   stuff like... oh yea, he was talking for the benefit of those listening when he said "not my will but yours be done" because Adam did his own will and Jesus was teaching them even then that he was the second Adam come to put right what the first Adam messed up.

Occam Razor - maybe he just wasn't God.

Or the worst one  heard was like some schizophrenic personality explanation where the human side of Jesus was talking to his spiritual perfect part of him.

[ZealousZeal]

It feels odd to jump in on page 12 and respond directly to the OP (is anyone still talking about the OP  ), but to answer whether I've ever considered Islam:

Not seriously, no. I've pondered conversion to Islam in a very general sense as I know people who have converted, and I can get its appeal to some folks. The people that I know who have converted were raised in a sort of vague Christianity, and I think (as much as I can presume to speak for someone else, which isn't a lot, really) it scratches the ritualistic itch, and fills a void that the practice of their faith didn't have before. Plus it's insta-community, and you get to say cool-sounding words in another language a lot, which people tend to like.

But Islam is a non-starter to me for a variety of reasons. In your OP you asked if Jesus made up my mind for me, and I suppose you could say that. Even so, if I weren't a Christian I would be an atheist.

[JamesR]

I would not agree man is not born into sin just cause he is of flesh.

Good for you; we don't either--save a few neo-gnostics and Calvinists.

Once you look at it from my view point then there is no need for a blood Savior or Allah (swt) to kill anyone for sin.

God didn't kill anyone; the Romans did.

Allah (swt)looks over your sins as long as you repent feel guilty and ask for Allah (swt) help in not doing it again.

My God offers me an opportunity to become deified like Him; yours only offers forgiveness. This is Christianity's ace-in-the-hole in my opinion. Screw forgiveness. I'm sick of Western Christianity, Islam, and all the other legalistic religions talking about how I need to be forgiven by some distant deadbeat father in the sky who's angry at me. The Incarnation is the only reason I think God is worthy of worship; He came to me.

I admittedly envy the simpleness and practicality of Islam and Judaism--I oftentimes find the transcendence and overemphasis on mysticism in Christianity to be a downer, but, I still think it comes down to Incarnation vs. no Incarnation, and quite frankly, nothing short of the Incarnation would get me to worship God.
 

...repent don't give your worship to other things other than the one true God.

Except we believe that Christ is God; it all comes down to whether or not you accept the Incarnation. Everything else is secondary.

[dzheremi]

For me,it's not a question of what Allah,subhana w ta 3la, could or could not do. I'm like,what is more likely - as if anyone can know the mind of God to even figure that out uh.

Indeed. You've hit the nail on the head: You are measuring what is true by what is most likely according to your own intellect, all the while recognizing that it is not your place or anyone's place to presume that they know the mind of God. In your studies of the Christianity or the Bible, you may have come across Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways", says the Lord.

That's what I meant about Islam being for all, not just a select few that can mentally get their head around   stuff like... oh yea, he was talking for the benefit of those listening when he said "not my will but yours be done" because Adam did his own will and Jesus was teaching them even then that he was the second Adam come to put right what the first Adam messed up.

Christ as the new Adam is Patristically and Biblically-supported (see Romans 5:12-18), but I agree that this is not the most easily understood explanation to give to a curious student, at least not before more basic explanations that don't rely on allegorical typologies. But even if that was difficult to understand, it does not then follow that Christianity is only for some intellectually-minded elites. One of my favorite passages on this comes from Benedictine monk Mark Gruber's book Journey Back to Eden on his time in the Coptic Orthodox monasteries of Egypt in the 1980s, where he quotes a monk who tells him the following about the Coptic Orthodox approach to Christianity:

"Our faith is easy, as simple as the alphabet. In the ancient tongue, alpha means 'eagle'. It is the bird of heaven, that which represents God -- transcendent, over all. Beta is the Hebrew word, we hear it in the name 'Bethel'; it means 'house, home' -- the place in which we are familiar, comfortable, in control, the place where we live out our lives day to day. But these two words, so opposite, have been conjoined: 'alpha' and 'beta', because in Christ Jesus, heaven is wedded to earth. Christ is the Word made flesh to dwell among us, to pitch His tent in our midst. We are not estranged anymore. This is easy; this is simple. Every child knows the alphabet, and so can any heart accept our faith."

Occam Razor - maybe he just wasn't God.

Occam is not a prophet in either of our religions, of course, and I would have to think that this could just as easily be applied to Islam as to any other religion, hence why you must have faith in it and not assume that it is most reasonable and hence correct just find it easier to understand than the alternatives (I don't think it is terribly reasonable that God would entrust His final revelation to an illiterate heathen merchant in the middle of nowhere, for instance; maybe God is simply much less reasonable than Occam, you, or I would have it, if we had any say in the matter).

Or the worst one  heard was like some schizophrenic personality explanation where the human side of Jesus was talking to his spiritual perfect part of him.

I've never heard of that. Sounds crazy.

[Poppy]

I am really finding this thread a help. Seriously, All glory to The One True God, thanks for everyone contributing to it and giving your time and being bothered to do that for me. I really appreciate it so much.

God willing (in sha'Allah), I will get around to all the direct questions to me, eventually and some I'm still thinking about. So, I'm not being rude to ignore you, just work and stuff.

[hecma925]

jewish voice: God became man because of the death that mankind faced, and God was merciful enough to let Himself go on the Cross to overturn death and not put one of us in His place.

The Allah of Islam is just a fabrication of men's minds and hands. The same as the 'god' of Judaism. Do you really think God is satisfied when you read a magic book, wash your hands and learn religious 'knowledge'?

Muhammad is not a Prophet, just a man. He's not magical. Neither is the Qur'an.

"Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing" And that's a misquotation of St. Paul's words. He said if Christ is not raised it is all for nothing. And Christ was raised, and He bears testimony of your rejection of Him given that fact.

Jesus being God is a revelation to humanity in the Incarnation. The Jews at the time of Christ such as the Essenes and Philo indicate that the Messiah would be Divine. And the Holy Scripture teaches these things in Ezekiel 37, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 9 and other areas.

When God spoke to Abraham, was it just some fabrication in Abraham's mind?  I agree that the Jews at the time of Christ rejected Jesus as Messiah, thus rejecting him as God. 

[xOrthodox4Christx]

jewish voice: God became man because of the death that mankind faced, and God was merciful enough to let Himself go on the Cross to overturn death and not put one of us in His place.

The Allah of Islam is just a fabrication of men's minds and hands. The same as the 'god' of Judaism. Do you really think God is satisfied when you read a magic book, wash your hands and learn religious 'knowledge'?

Muhammad is not a Prophet, just a man. He's not magical. Neither is the Qur'an.

"Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing" And that's a misquotation of St. Paul's words. He said if Christ is not raised it is all for nothing. And Christ was raised, and He bears testimony of your rejection of Him given that fact.

Jesus being God is a revelation to humanity in the Incarnation. The Jews at the time of Christ such as the Essenes and Philo indicate that the Messiah would be Divine. And the Holy Scripture teaches these things in Ezekiel 37, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 9 and other areas.

When God spoke to Abraham, was it just some fabrication in Abraham's mind?  I agree that the Jews at the time of Christ rejected Jesus as Messiah, thus rejecting him as God. 

I didn't say that in my post. You misread what I was saying. I was simply saying a person cannot constrain God to the fabrications and limitations of their mind, magical book or 'Law of God'. God is not affected by these man-made machinations.

[Mor Ephrem]

Even so, if I weren't a Christian I would be an atheist.

+1 

I've often felt that Christianity, and specifically Orthodoxy, ruined me for other religions.  If I ever "lost faith", I don't know if I'd be an atheist, but I'd certainly be a Mortheist...I'd do whatever I feel is right for me.   

[hecma925]

jewish voice: God became man because of the death that mankind faced, and God was merciful enough to let Himself go on the Cross to overturn death and not put one of us in His place.

The Allah of Islam is just a fabrication of men's minds and hands. The same as the 'god' of Judaism. Do you really think God is satisfied when you read a magic book, wash your hands and learn religious 'knowledge'?

Muhammad is not a Prophet, just a man. He's not magical. Neither is the Qur'an.

"Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing" And that's a misquotation of St. Paul's words. He said if Christ is not raised it is all for nothing. And Christ was raised, and He bears testimony of your rejection of Him given that fact.

Jesus being God is a revelation to humanity in the Incarnation. The Jews at the time of Christ such as the Essenes and Philo indicate that the Messiah would be Divine. And the Holy Scripture teaches these things in Ezekiel 37, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 9 and other areas.

When God spoke to Abraham, was it just some fabrication in Abraham's mind?  I agree that the Jews at the time of Christ rejected Jesus as Messiah, thus rejecting him as God. 

I didn't say that in my post. You misread what I was saying. I was simply saying a person cannot constrain God to the fabrications and limitations of their mind, magical book or 'Law of God'. God is not affected by these man-made machinations.

You're right, God is not constrained by anyone's mind.  But Jews don't view the Torah as the literal word of God the same way as Muslims view the Koran to be.  

Yet, Jews and Muslims (and most of the world) reject Jesus either way, book or no book.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

jewish voice: God became man because of the death that mankind faced, and God was merciful enough to let Himself go on the Cross to overturn death and not put one of us in His place.

The Allah of Islam is just a fabrication of men's minds and hands. The same as the 'god' of Judaism. Do you really think God is satisfied when you read a magic book, wash your hands and learn religious 'knowledge'?

Muhammad is not a Prophet, just a man. He's not magical. Neither is the Qur'an.

"Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing" And that's a misquotation of St. Paul's words. He said if Christ is not raised it is all for nothing. And Christ was raised, and He bears testimony of your rejection of Him given that fact.

Jesus being God is a revelation to humanity in the Incarnation. The Jews at the time of Christ such as the Essenes and Philo indicate that the Messiah would be Divine. And the Holy Scripture teaches these things in Ezekiel 37, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 9 and other areas.

When God spoke to Abraham, was it just some fabrication in Abraham's mind?  I agree that the Jews at the time of Christ rejected Jesus as Messiah, thus rejecting him as God. 

I didn't say that in my post. You misread what I was saying. I was simply saying a person cannot constrain God to the fabrications and limitations of their mind, magical book or 'Law of God'. God is not affected by these man-made machinations.

You're right, God is not constrained by anyone's mind.  But Jews don't view the Torah as the literal word of God the same way as Muslims view the Koran to be. 

Yet, Jews and Muslims (and most of the world) reject Jesus either way, book or no book.

They still build their outright ridiculous legal system using it. Haven't you seen this before? Believe it or not, Salafi Muslims have a very similar practice. I read something about Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, a Salafi-jihadi, making a publication about something quite similar to this.

I was simply reiterating, although in a very rhetorical and offensive manner, what St. Dionysios the Areopagite said:

Leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge.

Islam, Judaism, Protestantism and Hinduism all rely on the same 'god' of the Intellect; that needs to be discarded for the sake of true union with the Creator. Religious 'knowledge' of the Vedas, the Qur'an and the Arabic language, Usul al-Fiqh, Ulum al-Hadith, Isnad chains, Tafsir, etc. etc. etc. and the Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash etc. etc. etc. Along with 'vain repetitions' of verses from the Bible, Qur'an and Vedas that are memorized but never understood; is required in these religions. When God is not bound by any intellectual pursuit.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Even so, if I weren't a Christian I would be an atheist.

+1 

I've often felt that Christianity, and specifically Orthodoxy, ruined me for other religions.  If I ever "lost faith", I don't know if I'd be an atheist, but I'd certainly be a Mortheist...I'd do whatever I feel is right for me.   

If I wasn't a Christian I would be a Buddhist. Atheism is an intellectually untenable position for anyone who has any intellectual opinion, philosophical background or moral compass.

[hecma925]

Yeah, I've seen that before.  I actually posted that link not too long ago.  Many who claim Christianity also have ridiculous legal systems for their congregations (e.g. KJV1611 only fundamentalists, Pentecostals, and other sola scriptura types).  So it is too much intellect (which is given by God) that has given us Islam, Judaism as it is today, and the many strains of christianity.

I think it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to abandon intellect.  If everyone dialed down their intellects, would the whole world accept Christ as God?

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I think it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to abandon intellect.  If everyone dialed down their intellects, would the whole world accept Christ as God?

Well, you cannot interpret the Bible literally and come to the conclusion that Christ is the Messiah anyway. The Gospel writers and St. Paul use metaphorical methods of interpretation when explicating on the Messianic nature of the Christ-God. (Matthew 2 is a very good example) If it was so obviously, intellectually the case that Christ was God and the Messiah, everybody would already be a Christian. And an Orthodox Christian, at that.

Intellect cannot understand the things of God. Christ rebuked St. Peter for his false belief that the Messiah must not suffer and die. He thought, like other Jews did, that the Messiah was closer to Bar Kokhba than any merciful loving Son of God.

[orthonorm]

Even so, if I weren't a Christian I would be an atheist.

+1 

I've often felt that Christianity, and specifically Orthodoxy, ruined me for other religions.  If I ever "lost faith", I don't know if I'd be an atheist, but I'd certainly be a Mortheist...I'd do whatever I feel is right for me.   

Mortheist. I love it.

I want the Tshirt.

[Shiny]

Even so, if I weren't a Christian I would be an atheist.

+1 

I've often felt that Christianity, and specifically Orthodoxy, ruined me for other religions.  If I ever "lost faith", I don't know if I'd be an atheist, but I'd certainly be a Mortheist...I'd do whatever I feel is right for me.   

Mortheist. I love it.

I want the Tshirt.

Only if Morpheus is on it holding the pills.

[Poppy]

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.

Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.

The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.

There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

Not if the Word pre-existed with God. (John 1:1) Are you saying Abraham pre-existed with God? (John 8:58)

[Theophilos78]

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they?

No. They were mere humans who were chosen to convey some part of the divine truth. When the appointed time came, the Word became human and lived among us. See the contrast drawn between Moshe and Yeshua in the prologue to John's Gospel:

For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. (John 1:17)

Again, the idea of several prophets preaching the same message over and over is problematic:

Another Islamic objection to Jesus’ divinity actually enabled me to answer the vital question why the Koran was not pleased with the Christian idea of Jesus’ equality with God. The Koran refuted Jesus’ divinity and relegated His mission to that of a local prophet because it only endorsed a monotonous and repetitive prophetic system. Islam was said to be the name of the only true religion sent by the only true God. All the prophets mentioned in the Koran had preached Islam to their respective folks and tried to establish it as the true faith system. However, constant deviations from the only truth occurred as soon as the prophets passed away, which made it impossible for Islam to be firmly established on earth until Mohammad’s advent. The idea that Mohammad could do what all other prophets had failed to do (the first successful establishment and spread of Islam) bothered me a lot since this implicitly made all the messengers apart from Mohammad incompetent and pathetic religious figures.

Besides, the Islamic assertion about the inauthentic nature of the former faiths (Judaism and Christianity) was based on the supposition that God had oddly chosen to forget about His message once His messengers passed away. Instead of preserving the truth He had revealed, he kept sending it over and over since some evil people falsified it. In Christian theology, however, God preserved His word and allowed no discrepancy between His former message (the Old Testament) and the new message He taught through Jesus (the Gospel). Thus, Islam contended that there was an inevitable disruption in the communication of God’s divine truth until the final revelation was given to Mohammad whereas Christianity argued that the same communication was continuous and progressive and that it reached perfection in Jesus, who was God incarnate.
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/testimony.html

[Cyrillic]

For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. (John 1:17)

 

[orthonorm]

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

Not if the Word pre-existed with God. (John 1:1) Are you saying Abraham pre-existed with God? (John 8:58)

Not that I take any of your posts too seriously given their content, but I must know, how does anything pre-exist, especially in the context you are using it.

Existence itself leads arguably to a Trinitarian understanding of God. I think you need to think a little more about what existence means and how a monadic God could exist before anything else.

That to me is the trouble with the Islamic understanding of God. Some Islamic philosophy has attempted to deal with the problem, foreshadowing some 20th century insights into ontology centuries earlier.

[Romaios]

For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. (John 1:17)

 

You've probably sacrificed a hecatomb of kittens to no avail already, eh?  

[Theophilos78]

Look who's talking about derailing threads. 

[orthonorm]

...And since Christianity can and did exist without a codified central text, since it is based around the Word made flesh (not text), it is really not the problem that you may think it is if you can point to earlier stories that you claim are the precursors to Christ. There have always been precursors to Christ and the true religion of God (Christianity), and this fact was happily acknowledged long before the advent of Islam...what else do you think the Old Testament is all about to Christians?

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they? As they all carry a message in their actions to be lived out in a mong people.

You raise a good point. I think Christians haven't thought through what logos means, especially when they translate it as Word.

I mean if we are going to talk about Muslims using foreign vocabulary, what does Word mean?

To most people? word when it the first word a sentence.

[Poppy]

There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)

Ok, I'm not going to guess as to why The One True Allah might have did whatever He does do, as we already established that the ways of All Mighty Allah are different to ours, only to say that He gives signs,  He sends Prophets,peace and blessings to them, and He performs miracles.

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

[Theophilos78]

Even the author of the Qur'an designated Yeshua as a Word from God and the Word of God in the post-migration period without knowing the theological implications of this term.

[orthonorm]

it just seems weird that Muslims would go on and on about "God knows" and "If God wills" and "There is none like Him" and all that, but then when we say "Yes! Exactly! None is like the Holy Trinity!", they back up and go "Heyyy...hold on a minute...we didn't mean that...I mean, that's unreasonable! It is beneath God that He should have a son!"

So you are left in a very strange conceptual space where you have to say "It's not that he couldn't do it, it's that there wouldn't be need for Him to do it", as though God operates based on some perceived 'need'. Other Christians like to spin their wheels in alternative universes, too, also for the sake of making what actually happened anything but the focus of the discussion. God could've come to earth as a 500 foot-tall jello mold piloting a spaceship covered in Christmas lights, but He didn't. Now who's doing more to disrespect God's majesty or whatever by saying "He didn't need to do this", or "It's beneath Him that this would happen"? If the things you are objecting to are things He already did, then why does He need your armchair quarterbacking 600 years after the fact, or today, or ever? So long as we're going base what we can accept based on what we hypothesize about what God would need, we might as well mention what He doesn't. And Christianity certainly had that covered long before Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islam ever existed: "You are my Lord; You have no need of my goodness." (St. Augustine, Confessions)

So it is telling to me, in this context, that Poppy has written elsewhere that in Islam the goal is that your good deeds outweigh your bad (or some such; sorry, Poppy...this thread is moving too fast for me to recall the exact quote). And this connects to the incarnation and the crucifixion and the resurrection, all of these. They're nothing He needed to do. They're nothing we made Him do. They're what He did, and I respect His prerogatives as God.

For me,it's not a question of what Allah,subhana w ta 3la, could or could not do. I'm like,what is more likely - as if anyone can know the mind of God to even figure that out uh.

That's what I meant about Islam being for all, not just a select few that can mentally get their head around   stuff like... oh yea, he was talking for the benefit of those listening when he said "not my will but yours be done" because Adam did his own will and Jesus was teaching them even then that he was the second Adam come to put right what the first Adam messed up.

Occam Razor - maybe he just wasn't God.

Or the worst one  heard was like some schizophrenic personality explanation where the human side of Jesus was talking to his spiritual perfect part of him.

And I think this thread shows the problem when theology and philosophy mix, especially by those not with much background in either.

Theology proper doesn't reside in the same the understanding as philosophy. Using philosophical insight, even when properly understood, to make sense of theology is an odd problem which has plagued theology since well the first Church Father though he could do both.

Of course, theology decided to return the favor and plagued philosophy as well.

Neither has been the better for it.

 

[Theophilos78]

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

False parallelism since Adam and Eve were directly created whereas Yeshua was born. Also Adam and Eve were the first parents of mankind whereas Yeshua was not the progenitor of the human race.

[orthonorm]

There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)

Ok, I'm not going to guess as to why The One True Allah might have did whatever He does do, as we already established that the ways of All Mighty Allah are different to ours, only to say that He gives signs,  He sends Prophets,peace and blessings to them, and He performs miracles.

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

If God is absolutely inscrutable, then how you can have any belief in God?

This goes to why you believe in God to begin with. That is the advent of revelation which is not necessarily and only rarely something which could be called a cognitive act.

So how does God reveal himself, his ways being not ours, such that those who are entirely other can encounter him in the first place?

[orthonorm]

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

False parallelism

As pallid a manner of understanding as can be had by a person.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

[orthonorm]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

Gabriel, I think she answered this quite thoroughly some pages back.

[RehamG]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

Gabriel, I think she answered this quite thoroughly some pages back.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,54606.405.html

She answered here, to be exact.

[Poppy]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity?  

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

[mike]

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg oma subhana w ta 3la, just everything.

Fixed that for you.

[Theophilos78]

The unchanged Qur'an in its original form.

Really? The Qur'an underwent modifications even in the process of the supposed revelation: 

a) Allah/the author of the Qur'an changed it:

And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. (Surah 16:101 Pickthall)

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things? (Surah 2:106 Yusuf Ali)

b) Satan/the author of the Qur'an changed it:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise. (Surah 22:52 Pickthall)

[Theophilos78]

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

Yet your Allah failed to get the persons of the Christian Trinity correct. 

[orthonorm]

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

Yet your Allah failed to get the persons of the Christian Trinity correct.  

Dude (are you a guy?), the emoticons are bad enough, but do you have to affect the least admirable aspect of teen aged girls?

I can't expect you to be able to actually post something interesting, you refrain from your cartoon eye rolling.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity?  

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

[Poppy]

The unchanged Qur'an in its original form.

Really? The Qur'an underwent modifications even in the process of the supposed revelation: 

a) Allah/the author of the Qur'an changed it:

And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. (Surah 16:101 Pickthall)

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things? (Surah 2:106 Yusuf Ali)

b) Satan/the author of the Qur'an changed it:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise. (Surah 22:52 Pickthall)

You probably do this with your own scriptures as well.

[orthonorm]

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity?  

There was many things. Its simplicity, beauty, singularity of purpose in the message that was not changed from the beginning. The unchanged Qur'an in its original form. The heart of worship that is the core of everything you do. That my own actions determinate my relationship with All Mighty Allah and INTENTION, the fact that Islam addresses every area of life without anything missed out. It's whole ideology, omg, just everything.

Repelling? probably the usual stuff you heard already but mostly God being three persons.

The idea that Islam encompasses all of your life and dealings is what turns me off to it. It makes you incapable of thinking for yourself. You are controlled by a system of laws and religious doctrine.

Ahhhh. . . And you profess the mysteria of Orthodoxy?

I am not sure how much poppy knows about Islam but her most rabid detractors are showing some grave misunderstandings about Christianity not to mention Orthodoxy.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

All prophets of God would be, word made flesh, wouldn't they?

No. They were mere humans who were chosen to convey some part of the divine truth. When the appointed time came, the Word became human and lived among us. See the contrast drawn between Moshe and Yeshua in the prologue to John's Gospel:

For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. (John 1:17)

Again, the idea of several prophets preaching the same message over and over is problematic:

Another Islamic objection to Jesus’ divinity actually enabled me to answer the vital question why the Koran was not pleased with the Christian idea of Jesus’ equality with God. The Koran refuted Jesus’ divinity and relegated His mission to that of a local prophet because it only endorsed a monotonous and repetitive prophetic system. Islam was said to be the name of the only true religion sent by the only true God. All the prophets mentioned in the Koran had preached Islam to their respective folks and tried to establish it as the true faith system. However, constant deviations from the only truth occurred as soon as the prophets passed away, which made it impossible for Islam to be firmly established on earth until Mohammad’s advent. The idea that Mohammad could do what all other prophets had failed to do (the first successful establishment and spread of Islam) bothered me a lot since this implicitly made all the messengers apart from Mohammad incompetent and pathetic religious figures.

Besides, the Islamic assertion about the inauthentic nature of the former faiths (Judaism and Christianity) was based on the supposition that God had oddly chosen to forget about His message once His messengers passed away. Instead of preserving the truth He had revealed, he kept sending it over and over since some evil people falsified it. In Christian theology, however, God preserved His word and allowed no discrepancy between His former message (the Old Testament) and the new message He taught through Jesus (the Gospel). Thus, Islam contended that there was an inevitable disruption in the communication of God’s divine truth until the final revelation was given to Mohammad whereas Christianity argued that the same communication was continuous and progressive and that it reached perfection in Jesus, who was God incarnate.
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/testimony.html

Marcionites. Muslims are Marcionites in that they disregard former revelations but they accept their own fabrications as revelation. Except that Muslims are far more Marcionite than Marcionites ever were.

[primuspilus]

I find it funny that many of the folks posting threads being rather kind towards Islam are pretty harsh towards Protestantism and Roman Catholicsim. Gives me alot of food for thought.

PP