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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 17682 times) Average Rating: 5
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ialmisry
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« Reply #405 on: November 03, 2013, 06:26:03 PM »

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...

Typo.. I meant Alaha... Alaha is not the same as Allah.
Same Guy:

ˀlh, ˀlhˀ (ˀĕ/ălāh, ˀĕ/ălāhā) n.m. god

  1 god, God Com. --(a) pagan god(s) Com. --(b) the God of Israel Com. (b.1) in oaths and curses JBA. --(c) ܠܐ ܐܠܗ : godless Syr.
   LS2: 47[21]. DJPA: 59a. DJBA: 133a. Jastrow: 66. Levy Ch-W: 1:29. J. Payne-Smith: 17. DNWSI: 57.
http://cal.huc.edu/searchroots.php?pos=N&lemma=)lh

Btw, the supreme god of the Canaanites was El.  Sound familiar? (Israel, Emmanuel...)
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« Reply #406 on: November 03, 2013, 06:33:00 PM »

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...

Typo.. I meant Alaha... Alaha is not the same as Allah.
Same Guy:

ˀlh, ˀlhˀ (ˀĕ/ălāh, ˀĕ/ălāhā) n.m. god

  1 god, God Com. --(a) pagan god(s) Com. --(b) the God of Israel Com. (b.1) in oaths and curses JBA. --(c) ܠܐ ܐܠܗ : godless Syr.
   LS2: 47[21]. DJPA: 59a. DJBA: 133a. Jastrow: 66. Levy Ch-W: 1:29. J. Payne-Smith: 17. DNWSI: 57.
http://cal.huc.edu/searchroots.php?pos=N&lemma=)lh

Btw, the supreme god of the Canaanites was El.  Sound familiar? (Israel, Emmanuel...)

Nope, not the same. Allah does not mean god. Alaha can only be related to ILAH, which indeed means god in Arabic. As I've said hundreds of times so far, Allah is an ilah, but not every ilah is Allah. These are different terms.  Wink

I do not claim that EL is the name of the God of Israel. YHWH is his sacred name.
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« Reply #407 on: November 03, 2013, 06:50:31 PM »

Quote from: Cyrillic
As told by any respectable scholar.
Sorry. no disrespect intended.

Quote
Why did you become a muslim?

I looked into Christianity. All diff kinds of it. I went to the Baptist church once, looked into their ways, same with Charismatics, total weirdness gone to bed, same with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy was where I spent the longest time studying because it's the only sane version of Christianity that exists (along with RC). Everything else made me want to stick pencils in my eyes and slap the preachers wife for thinking it gives her a free pass to lead vocals in the choir, even when she has a voice that makes yr ears bleed.

So I started some classes about the creed and me and the fr. got to the part about Jesus عليه الصلاة والسلام
I had to stop because i didn't believe it. I tried to accept it but there was so many late additions as the various councils met and then two other major religions didn't accept Jesus as God. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give away some of God's glory to someone else. Then I started reading Islam.

It not only made more sense to me but I discovered it's nothing, nothing at all like it's portrayed by misinformed people. It's truly a beautiful religion when the internal beliefs are practised. That's what makes the external stuff so impressive. The commitment and discipline because of the internal faith in One God who brings truth and forgiveness for all, not a select few but for the whole entire world.

I read so much stuff in Christianity where the fundamentals were up for debate and disbelief amongst Christians but in Islam, everyone reads the same text. Sure there are different schools of fiqh (laws and stuff) but they all still read and agree with ALL of the whole of the Qur'an.

The 99 Names made me decide, because they show the depth and breath of the nature of Allah, Al Wadod (The Loving) and Al Wali (The Friend/Protection), Al Muqtdir (The Dominant), Al Nur (The Light)... read them, it would be worth it.

People told me of Christianity always "free gift" God's love and his forgiveness and I never could understand why they would say it. It was not free at all in Christianity but cost another his human life and all the pain that was endured. But like everything else considered 'free' it has no value and I could see that demonstrated in the lives of christians every day.

Don't get me wrong, our community is equally as messed up but for different reasons. Years of cultural/political in fighting, corruption at the highest level and other disturbing rubbish. The core of Islam though remains the same. Same historically, same book unchanged, same unwaveringness and unapologetic for making a firm stand on issues of faith in this world where other religions have crumpled under the pressure to modernise and change, allowing all kinds of badness into the Church.

The miracles in Islam, the way Islam has covered every part of society, the Prophets own life, salallahu 3lehi wa salam, the lives of the women in Islam, ma sha'Allah, their faith, their actions and how they are honoured and respected so deeply. Crikey I could go on and on.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:51:42 PM by Poppy » Logged
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« Reply #408 on: November 03, 2013, 06:53:14 PM »

Quote from: Cyrillic
As told by any respectable scholar.
Sorry. no disrespect intended.

Quote
Why did you become a muslim?

I looked into Christianity. All diff kinds of it. I went to the Baptist church once, looked into their ways, same with Charismatics, total weirdness gone to bed, same with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy was where I spent the longest time studying because it's the only sane version of Christianity that exists (along with RC). Everything else made me want to stick pencils in my eyes and slap the preachers wife for thinking it gives her a free pass to lead vocals in the choir, even when she has a voice that makes yr ears bleed.

So I started some classes about the creed and me and the fr. got to the part about Jesus عليه الصلاة والسلام
I had to stop because i didn't believe it. I tried to accept it but there was so many late additions as the various councils met and then two other major religions didn't accept Jesus as God. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give away some of God's glory to someone else. Then I started reading Islam.

It not only made more sense to me but I discovered it's nothing, nothing at all like it's portrayed by misinformed people. It's truly a beautiful religion when the internal beliefs are practised. That's what makes the external stuff so impressive. The commitment and discipline because of the internal faith in One God who brings truth and forgiveness for all, not a select few but for the whole entire world.

I read so much stuff in Christianity where the fundamentals were up for debate and disbelief amongst Christians but in Islam, everyone reads the same text. Sure there are different schools of fiqh (laws and stuff) but they all still read and agree with ALL of the whole of the Qur'an.

The 99 Names made me decide, because they show the depth and breath of the nature of Allah, Al Wadod (The Loving) and Al Wali (The Friend/Protection), Al Muqtdir (The Dominant), Al Nur (The Light)... read them, it would be worth it.

People told me of Christianity always "free gift" God's love and his forgiveness and I never could understand why they would say it. It was not free at all in Christianity but cost another his human life and all the pain that was endured. But like everything else considered 'free' it has no value and I could see that demonstrated in the lives of christians every day.

Don't get me wrong, our community is equally as messed up but for different reasons. Years of cultural/political in fighting, corruption at the highest level and other disturbing rubbish. The core of Islam though remains the same. Same historically, same book unchanged, same unwaveringness and unapologetic for making a firm stand on issues of faith in this world where other religions have crumpled under the pressure to modernise and change, allowing all kinds of badness into the Church.

The miracles in Islam, the way Islam has covered every part of society, the Prophets own life, salallahu 3lehi wa salam, the lives of the women in Islam, ma sha'Allah, their faith, their actions and how they are honoured and respected so deeply. Crikey I could go on and on.

Thanks poppy.
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« Reply #409 on: November 03, 2013, 06:57:34 PM »


I had to stop because i didn't believe it. I tried to accept it but there was so many late additions as the various councils met and then two other major religions didn't accept Jesus as God. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give away some of God's glory to someone else. Then I started reading Islam.


Maybe soon we shall witness you write:  Roll Eyes

"two other major religions didn't accept Muhammad as prophet. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give credence to a false prophet. Then I stopped studying Islam"
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« Reply #410 on: November 03, 2013, 06:59:52 PM »

I'm tired and, God permitting, I have got 12 hour work tomorrow so I will answer minas tomorrow. About Maryaam and other stuff.
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« Reply #411 on: November 03, 2013, 07:01:09 PM »

dzheremi

The Qur'an, and hence the religion that is built around it, fails quite simply because it is not what it says it is: It is not the word of God/Allah (and, as a corollary, Muhammad is not the messenger of God/Allah, his "revelation" is false, etc). And we can know that it is not what it says it is because it fails in its own stated goals to serve as "reminder" of what came before (since it doesn't match what came before, if it's corrective, it wouldn't have to?

Yet you fail to understand that the Qur'an never claims to correct the former revelations. Actually, the Qur'an repeatedly teaches that its function is to CONFIRM what went before it rather than correct and change.  angel

The English word 'confirm' doesn't give the same nuance to the Arabic word Musadiqun (مصدق) which has the connotation of veracity (using the Latin root 'Veritate' to indicate 'truth') and truth. A better word IMO would be 'verifying' the former revelations. Therefore, confirming their truth.

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...

Typo.. I meant Alaha... Alaha is not the same as Allah.
Same Guy:

ˀlh, ˀlhˀ (ˀĕ/ălāh, ˀĕ/ălāhā) n.m. god

  1 god, God Com. --(a) pagan god(s) Com. --(b) the God of Israel Com. (b.1) in oaths and curses JBA. --(c) ܠܐ ܐܠܗ : godless Syr.
   LS2: 47[21]. DJPA: 59a. DJBA: 133a. Jastrow: 66. Levy Ch-W: 1:29. J. Payne-Smith: 17. DNWSI: 57.
http://cal.huc.edu/searchroots.php?pos=N&lemma=)lh

Btw, the supreme god of the Canaanites was El.  Sound familiar? (Israel, Emmanuel...)

Nope, not the same. Allah does not mean god. Alaha can only be related to ILAH, which indeed means god in Arabic. As I've said hundreds of times so far, Allah is an ilah, but not every ilah is Allah. These are different terms.  Wink

I do not claim that EL is the name of the God of Israel. YHWH is his sacred name.

I have heard these claims that 'Allah' does not mean God, but they are just untrue. Allah is the word for God in Arabic, just like ilah is.

Quote from: Cyrillic
As told by any respectable scholar.
Sorry. no disrespect intended.

Quote
Why did you become a muslim?

I looked into Christianity. All diff kinds of it. I went to the Baptist church once, looked into their ways, same with Charismatics, total weirdness gone to bed, same with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy was where I spent the longest time studying because it's the only sane version of Christianity that exists (along with RC). Everything else made me want to stick pencils in my eyes and slap the preachers wife for thinking it gives her a free pass to lead vocals in the choir, even when she has a voice that makes yr ears bleed.

So I started some classes about the creed and me and the fr. got to the part about Jesus عليه الصلاة والسلام
I had to stop because i didn't believe it. I tried to accept it but there was so many late additions as the various councils met and then two other major religions didn't accept Jesus as God. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give away some of God's glory to someone else. Then I started reading Islam.

It not only made more sense to me but I discovered it's nothing, nothing at all like it's portrayed by misinformed people. It's truly a beautiful religion when the internal beliefs are practised. That's what makes the external stuff so impressive. The commitment and discipline because of the internal faith in One God who brings truth and forgiveness for all, not a select few but for the whole entire world.

I read so much stuff in Christianity where the fundamentals were up for debate and disbelief amongst Christians but in Islam, everyone reads the same text. Sure there are different schools of fiqh (laws and stuff) but they all still read and agree with ALL of the whole of the Qur'an.

The 99 Names made me decide, because they show the depth and breath of the nature of Allah, Al Wadod (The Loving) and Al Wali (The Friend/Protection), Al Muqtdir (The Dominant), Al Nur (The Light)... read them, it would be worth it.

People told me of Christianity always "free gift" God's love and his forgiveness and I never could understand why they would say it. It was not free at all in Christianity but cost another his human life and all the pain that was endured. But like everything else considered 'free' it has no value and I could see that demonstrated in the lives of christians every day.

Don't get me wrong, our community is equally as messed up but for different reasons. Years of cultural/political in fighting, corruption at the highest level and other disturbing rubbish. The core of Islam though remains the same. Same historically, same book unchanged, same unwaveringness and unapologetic for making a firm stand on issues of faith in this world where other religions have crumpled under the pressure to modernise and change, allowing all kinds of badness into the Church.

The miracles in Islam, the way Islam has covered every part of society, the Prophets own life, salallahu 3lehi wa salam, the lives of the women in Islam, ma sha'Allah, their faith, their actions and how they are honoured and respected so deeply. Crikey I could go on and on.

In other words, there was no specific reason. It's a lie that Islam remains the same. Plenty of historical data and Islamic tradition throw that out the window. And Islam is very much like it is stereotyped by people. You just haven't encountered those elements yet.
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« Reply #412 on: November 03, 2013, 07:01:34 PM »

I'm tired and, God permitting, I have got 12 hour work tomorrow so I will answer minas tomorrow. About Maryaam and other stuff.

Which Maryaam? Yeshua's blessed mother or Amram's daughter and Aaron's sister? Oh wait, your prophet taught they were identical.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #413 on: November 03, 2013, 07:26:03 PM »

dzheremi

The Qur'an, and hence the religion that is built around it, fails quite simply because it is not what it says it is: It is not the word of God/Allah (and, as a corollary, Muhammad is not the messenger of God/Allah, his "revelation" is false, etc). And we can know that it is not what it says it is because it fails in its own stated goals to serve as "reminder" of what came before (since it doesn't match what came before, if it's corrective, it wouldn't have to?

But if it can be shown to be wrong in its representation of what it is supposedly correcting, does that not harm its claims of being a correction of what came before? If I "correct" Islam based on what Ahmadiyya believe, then I haven't really corrected Islam, have I? By the same token, if I claim that what I teach is in line with what came before, but it is actually at variance with what came before (being, as it is in the case of Islam, based on twisted versions of oral gospel rememberings, including non-canonical literature popular in Muhammad's time, like the Arabic Infancy Gospels), then it isn't really a reminder. It's a kind of retelling, but since it is flipped on its head and used to buttress the claims of a latter-day self-proclaimed prophet that none of the people who originally heard or composed those same writings it references accept, it is at best self-serving and anyway inaccurate. This was my point in bringing up Griffith's assessment, that there are certainly echos of preexisting Christian and Jewish biblical and extra-biblical literature, but they do not correspond to anything that the Christians or Jews themselves would've recognized as scripture, since the Qur'an purposely mutilates them in order to support its own narrative. I mean, I bet if I took an x-acto knife to the Qur'an and rearranged its words until they said what I wanted them to say, you'd probably have a hard time stomaching my contention that whatever I'd created was a "reminder" or a "corrective" of the Qur'an, right? This is how it is with the Qur'an vis-a-vis other scriptures. Influences can be discerned, no doubt, but it doesn't really function as it says it does, either as a reminder or a corrective, because the only way that it fits itself in with what came before is by completely mangling what came before until somehow Muhammad or his followers could say that these people, places, and sayings fit together with Islam. But they don't, regardless of who says they do.

Quote
Muftis would do more than show the contradictions. You  know yourself probably, the average Christian (ok maybe not the average Orthodox Christian), can't manage more than throwing bible quotes at people, torn from their original context.[/b]

I can't speak to what the average Christian would or wouldn't manage, but if Muftis think they know our scriptures better than the Fathers, I say let them bring what they have, and be silenced on that account. Some of the fathers in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, such as John of Damascus, even lived contemporaneously with the early Muslims, and observed their practices first hand. His characterization need hardly be updated, I would think, as it is still true that Islam is a heresy of the Arabs, and Muhammad wrote many false things, etc.

Quote
It is a bit of a Goldilocks religion who?


Goldilocks and the Three Bears is a British fairytale that is also popular in America. It concerns a young girl who wanders into a house in which three bears live, and at one point she tastes porridge belonging to them. Finding the first two hot, and the second two cold, she settles upon the third, declaring it to be just right. The parallel to Islam is obvious: Judaism is wrong, Christianity is wrong, but along comes Muhammad who just happens to succeed where the others have failed.

Quote
(1) At the time of Christ (and, in the Jews' view, of course also after Him), there was a preexisting belief in the coming of a Messiah. but they wanted him to overthrow the existing rulers of the day and to start a revolution? That's what they were expecting

Yes, and? I said the preexisting belief was there. I didn't say anything about whether or not the Jews' expectations would be fulfilled by Jesus Christ (I think it's pretty obvious that they were not, given that there are still Jews today). Please do not read things into my posts that are not there.

Quote
I don't really understand what you're on about because you're not very pithy and i'm losing the will to live a bit in your post. It's like you brought yr own bottle of wine to a party only to be able to say how rubbish the wine is.

But so I read a lot about the Ottoman Empire and all that Islam achieved and contributed to the world.

Can you object without resorting to ad hominem? I'm not writing to be pithy or impress you. You asked why people who may have considered Islam and Christianity did not go for Islam, didn't you? These are a few reasons why it was easy for me to reject Islam in favor of Christianity.

And the accomplishments of Islam or the Ottomans were built upon Christian and Jewish physicians, polymaths, etc. There is very little that Islam actually contributed to the world. While the letter contains a racialist overtone that I find distasteful (after all, there's nothing wrong with being Arab, and Arab does not automatically equate to Muslim), Assyrian news reporter Peter BetBasoo does a pretty good job dismantling the most common claims of the Islamic sycophants who seem eager to credit "Islamic civilization" with everything accomplished by its minorities, who were usually the ones who were ultimately responsible for the so-called 'achievements' Muslims now try to claim as their own or for their religion: What Arab Civilization?

Quote
In your humble limited opinion

Which you asked for by starting this thread, mind you.

Quote
I can show you some equally difficult parts from the bible and the God of love and forgiveness that is also spoken of and where God instructs people to do certain things that seem a bit off for a loving God.

The All Mighty God is both the most loving, merciful and unfathomable as well as being totally terrifying.
[/b]

No complaints here about that. I was merely saying that I don't see the love and forgiveness in Islam that you apparently do. Also, it should be pointed out that showing this or that difficult passage from the Bible does not in itself deal with the hadith in question, nor does the hadith in question lay the command to kill at the feet of God Himself, but rather it explicitly says that this was Muhammad's command. So I am afraid your reply does not address what I've actually mentioned here, but no matter...this is your thread, not mine.

Quote
Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. There are three days to repent.


Indeed. And similarly but greater the Fathers that this life (as in, the whole life) is given to us for repentance. It could be a three days, three years, three decades, or three minutes, but whatever it is, the time you have is to be used wisely to repent of sin, whether you are under sentence of death or not (as we all are in the long run, but hopefully you know what I mean).

Quote
Again, I could equally bring up stuff here about Christianity as well, and what the bible teaches, but likewise, both will have explanations from their respective sides.

This kind of discussion gets us no where and it's a bare waste of my time and yours.

Ah, you could if their were such laws among Christians as there are in many Islamic countries, but there are not. Again, you want to bring difficult things from the Bible as though they answer for the Qur'an or the Hadith, but they do not. I think that's the actual reason why these kinds of discussions are generally a waste of time.

Quote
it doesn't have to 'work', i'm just telling you the reason.

And I likewise am stating why it does not make sense.

Quote
Blessed Mary did? A good example to follow.

Indeed.

Quote
Who says that the extra time the person is given will result in repentance?? That is way too risky. They have 3 days, that is enough time.

Too risky how? And for who? For the apostate? For God?

You do have a point, though, in that it is not guaranteed that any extra time will result in repentance. I am not sure that this wasn't already thought of in the times of our fathers, but that doesn't change the fact that our tradition is what it is. We did not fight the rigorists like the Donatists and others only to have that re-emerge with divine sanction from Muhammad and Co. Your religion may do as it pleases, but for us repentance is always possible, so long as we dwell on this earth.

Quote
Also, people got/get killed for all kinds of reasons, death row in the states and also for treason in this country and a tonne of others. Yet we go weak at the thought of the biggest insult to All Mighty, someone turning their back on the God who gives them every breath in their body and is their all source and resource. (reminds me of Hebrews 11) and yet this reason is lower down the scale than human justice and insult??

Is it truly weakness to forgive rather than kill when you have the power to choose between one and the other? I have been taught in my faith that God's justice does not preclude His mercy (so we cannot think that we can do whatever we want with the idea that we'll just stop sinning later and poof, we're fine), but never that people must be killed to appease God's hurt feelings or whatever. That sounds more like Calvinism than traditional Christianity. We cannot appease God, even if we live to be a million years old.

Quote
Anyway, I don't want to have a spat about this. You asked and so I answered but it's way off from what I need so If you reply back about it, I won't carry on the discussion. Really, it's just an exercise that's all. It don't add anything.

I am merely responding as I already wrote to Mina that I would only continue if you responded to me directly, which you have done now. We can cease communicating after this, if you'd like.

Quote
Same has happened here too misunderstandings from Christians about Islam. No matter how much it's explained, the explanations just aren't accepted. Both sides think the others' answer is messed up and so the answer is rejected and the misinformation continues.

Absolutely. This goes back to the first part of this reply, about how different our theological languages are. We can't help but conclude each other to be very, very wrong, even as we cannot fully appreciate every nuance of the others' points. I am, after all, not a Muslim, so much of what you've written here does not make sense to me. I assume that the same is true of my answers to you. This is kind of what I was getting at in my reply to Mina.

Quote
They really cannot countenance that the truth may be as the Christian puts it about our own belief, as that would mean that the Qur'an (and hence Muhammad and Allah) are wrong about something, and the whole house of cards just collapses (since Islam is built around "the book"). Not always the case. Your thinking only one dimensionally, this is the only reason I can think of so it must be true. Sometimes it's not understood because of cultural reasons or just a lack of comprehension about the actual concept itself. Like for instance, the incantation.

Not at all, in fact. You have put the word "only" into your characterization of my reply (it's not in the original, as you can see). I can certainly agree with everything that you have written here, because these are also reasons why a Muslim might disagree with the Christian belief, but please note that I was referring the characterization of the Christian belief as found and codified in Islam (hence the bit about "the book"), which is something other than whatever other objections Muslims might have to Christian doctrine. In the context in which I invoked the idea, it makes perfect sense to say a Muslim will not accept that the Christian's correction about our own belief, because doing so would mean that the Qur'an is wrong, and of course for Islam to be correct the Qur'an cannot be wrong.

Quote
But with me....seeing as you mentioned me in particular. It's incomprehensible, especially about the incarnation,so i find it not only difficult to hold that thought but also to even say it or talk about it. It's not a matter of rejecting your truth, I promise. That don't need a 'tut and rolly eyes', it just need repeating and bit of frikin patience.

The rolling eyes were for Mina's approach (perhaps somewhat hastily; sorry, Mina), as he seems to have acknowledged in his reply to me, not for you. I apologize for the confusion.

Quote
I only answered your posts like this because I felt for you because of what minas said. And also you wasn't rude to me personally, but minas is right, more of your posts was about what Islam isn't rather than what Christianity is. It's all good though. But they were a bit predictable. Seeing that you asked -)

Well, yes. They were about what Islam isn't because it is what Islam isn't in comparison to what it says it is (particularly in the context of its polemic against Christianity, since that's something I know at least a little bit about already, so it's easy to spot where Islam gets it wrong when it really shouldn't if it is in fact the true religion of God) that ultimately convinced me that it is not the religion for me. If you had asked "What about Christianity made you decide to be a Christian?", my answers would have been completely different, and not included Islam at all. I have no trouble taking either religion (or any religion) entirely on its own merits, but for the fact that they were invoked together in this thread. Well, that and the fact that Islam is at a bit of a disadvantage, as it must provide an apology for itself relative to its claims of continuation or perfection of previous faiths that Christianity does not need to provide in response (read: by virtue of its distinctive prophetology, Islam attempts to answer and correct both Christians and Jews, but since Christianity predates Islam by centuries, we do not have to prove ourselves in line with Islam, and indeed gladly say that we are not, since what Muhammad brought contradicts our own preexisting command that we not believe any other Gospel, even if brought from an angel of heaven).
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« Reply #414 on: November 03, 2013, 10:10:39 PM »

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As told by any respectable scholar.
Sorry. no disrespect intended.

Quote
Why did you become a muslim?

I looked into Christianity. All diff kinds of it. I went to the Baptist church once, looked into their ways, same with Charismatics, total weirdness gone to bed, same with Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy was where I spent the longest time studying because it's the only sane version of Christianity that exists (along with RC). Everything else made me want to stick pencils in my eyes and slap the preachers wife for thinking it gives her a free pass to lead vocals in the choir, even when she has a voice that makes yr ears bleed.

So I started some classes about the creed and me and the fr. got to the part about Jesus عليه الصلاة والسلام
I had to stop because i didn't believe it. I tried to accept it but there was so many late additions as the various councils met and then two other major religions didn't accept Jesus as God. Then I worried that if he was not, it would be such a blasphemy to give away some of God's glory to someone else. Then I started reading Islam.

It not only made more sense to me but I discovered it's nothing, nothing at all like it's portrayed by misinformed people. It's truly a beautiful religion when the internal beliefs are practised. That's what makes the external stuff so impressive. The commitment and discipline because of the internal faith in One God who brings truth and forgiveness for all, not a select few but for the whole entire world.

I read so much stuff in Christianity where the fundamentals were up for debate and disbelief amongst Christians but in Islam, everyone reads the same text. Sure there are different schools of fiqh (laws and stuff) but they all still read and agree with ALL of the whole of the Qur'an.

The 99 Names made me decide, because they show the depth and breath of the nature of Allah, Al Wadod (The Loving) and Al Wali (The Friend/Protection), Al Muqtdir (The Dominant), Al Nur (The Light)... read them, it would be worth it.

People told me of Christianity always "free gift" God's love and his forgiveness and I never could understand why they would say it. It was not free at all in Christianity but cost another his human life and all the pain that was endured. But like everything else considered 'free' it has no value and I could see that demonstrated in the lives of christians every day.

Don't get me wrong, our community is equally as messed up but for different reasons. Years of cultural/political in fighting, corruption at the highest level and other disturbing rubbish. The core of Islam though remains the same. Same historically, same book unchanged, same unwaveringness and unapologetic for making a firm stand on issues of faith in this world where other religions have crumpled under the pressure to modernise and change, allowing all kinds of badness into the Church.

The miracles in Islam, the way Islam has covered every part of society, the Prophets own life, salallahu 3lehi wa salam, the lives of the women in Islam, ma sha'Allah, their faith, their actions and how they are honoured and respected so deeply. Crikey I could go on and on.

Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed. 
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« Reply #415 on: November 04, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »

...  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
 
This is the big difference, is it not, between Christianity and Islam. Islam does not accept the Trinity. However, even some Protestants do not accept Jesus as God Incarnate, but only as a special messenger of God.
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« Reply #416 on: November 04, 2013, 12:49:41 AM »

...  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
 
This is the big difference, is it not, between Christianity and Islam. Islam does not accept the Trinity. However, even some Protestants do not accept Jesus as God Incarnate, but only as a special messenger of God.

It isn't. The big difference is Islam supersedes anything Christianity or Judaism can offer. So, Christians can point to the Old Testament and New Testament as much as they want to, Islam is still superior and still abrogates those religions and those books.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Tafseer/keller.html

In other words, no matter what the 'unbelievers' say, Muslims are always right. Smiley
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« Reply #417 on: November 04, 2013, 03:44:48 AM »

What I want to know is where are all the great saints and miracles in the Islamic faith? I feel inspired by Orthodoxy because the saints are real life examples of what Christ has done for us. It's the power of the Holy Spirit working and producing fruit in and through the real faith.
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« Reply #418 on: November 04, 2013, 04:50:35 AM »

Who says that the extra time the person is given will result in repentance?? That is way too risky. They have 3 days, that is enough time. As you know in Islam it is all about making your good deeds outweigh your bad. Do they need more time so that they end up in such a bad place for much longer or even forever? Say they have 3 years to repent and do, but right at the last bit of that 3 years. They have 2 years and 11months of badness they built up that might even nullify their repentance depending on what it was and how much and for how long.

Also, people got/get killed for all kinds of reasons, death row in the states and also for treason in this country and a tonne of others. Yet we go weak at the thought of the biggest insult to All Mighty, someone turning their back on the God who gives them every breath in their body and is their all source and resource. (reminds me of Hebrews 11) and yet this reason is lower down the scale than human justice and insult??

My username's namesake, who was indeed commonly referred to as Hawkeye, was an average Old Believer. He worked in the standard job fields, got married young, and probably drank his fair share. There came a day, however, when everything went south for him. His family life collapsed and he lost himself in drugs, alcohol, and other various evils. He lived like that for over a decade until, out of the blue, he returned to the church he had abandoned pleading for forgiveness.

After some examination, his contrition was accepted as genuine and, upon serving his penance, he was readmitted into the church as a member in good standing. Right around that same time, he even started reconnecting with his children. Things were starting to look up for him once more.

Within a month, there was a traffic collision and he was dead.

You are right in saying that extra time does not repentance make but who would have thought that this man would one day see the error of his way? Should the opportunity have been denied after 3 days, or 3 months, or 3 years? Would it have been preferable to take from him any and all chances of repentance after a short period of time, such that this situation could never have occurred?

Among other reasons, this is precisely why I oppose the death penalty in nearly all - if not all - cases. What madness denies a man, no matter how terrible, the opportunity to repent, whatever the crime may be?

I cannot fathom such an attitude.
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« Reply #419 on: November 04, 2013, 06:41:10 PM »

What I want to know is where are all the great saints and miracles in the Islamic faith? I feel inspired by Orthodoxy because the saints are real life examples of what Christ has done for us. It's the power of the Holy Spirit working and producing fruit in and through the real faith.

So true. Never heard of any Islamic saints period, let alone saint's whose bodies exude healing oil that procure miraculous healings like St. Nicholas or St. Nektarios. In my own parish we have had two people healed from terminal illnesses and one healed completely from a major car accident which should have killed him or left him severely handicapped through being anointed with oil from St. John Maximovitch's lampada oil.

Syrian Christians told me Muslims would come to Sayidnaya, an Antiochian Orthodox Christian convent,  to receive healing from the Theotokos.
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« Reply #420 on: November 04, 2013, 07:56:40 PM »

What I want to know is where are all the great saints and miracles in the Islamic faith? I feel inspired by Orthodoxy because the saints are real life examples of what Christ has done for us. It's the power of the Holy Spirit working and producing fruit in and through the real faith.

So true. Never heard of any Islamic saints period, let alone saint's whose bodies exude healing oil that procure miraculous healings like St. Nicholas or St. Nektarios. In my own parish we have had two people healed from terminal illnesses and one healed completely from a major car accident which should have killed him or left him severely handicapped through being anointed with oil from St. John Maximovitch's lampada oil.

Syrian Christians told me Muslims would come to Sayidnaya, an Antiochian Orthodox Christian convent,  to receive healing from the Theotokos.

Well, I don't know about miracles associated with "saints", but Shiite Muslims have a tradition of venerating notable people over the centuries, and even allows an iconographic tradition, something Sunnis are vehemently against.
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« Reply #421 on: November 04, 2013, 08:09:38 PM »

All the miracles related to Islam are fabricated and modern as we can see in the invention of pseudo-scientific miracles.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/
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« Reply #422 on: November 04, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means. 
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« Reply #423 on: November 04, 2013, 08:17:52 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means. 

Me neither!  Grin
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« Reply #424 on: November 04, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means. 

Me neither!  Grin

I think of throat singing:

Huun-Huur-Tu means "sunbeams", apparently.
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« Reply #425 on: November 04, 2013, 09:13:39 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means. 
Me neither, but you do know what Yahwist means and I think for that we can all be grateful.

In Christ,
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« Reply #426 on: November 04, 2013, 09:31:25 PM »

Sufis have saints of some kind. Wikipedia has a list of people who are considered saints by various Sufi traditions, anyway. I dunno.
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« Reply #427 on: November 04, 2013, 09:59:32 PM »


In Romania there is a town (Babadag) built around the shrine of a Sufi saint - Baba Sari Saltuk - in Dobrogea. It's still visited by Muslim pilgrims from abroad, especially from Turkey.



We also have lots of stories about Nastratin Hogea. This one I find quite funny:

Quote
Reaching enlightenment

    Nasreddin was walking in the bazaar with a large group of followers. Whatever Nasreddin did, his followers immediately copied. Every few steps Nasreddin would stop and shake his hands in the air, touch his feet and jump up yelling "Hu Hu Hu!". So his followers would also stop and do exactly the same thing.

    One of the merchants, who knew Nasreddin, quietly asked him: "What are you doing my old friend? Why are these people imitating you?"

    "I have become a Sufi Sheikh," replied Nasreddin. "These are my Murids (spiritual seekers); I am helping them reach enlightenment!"

    "How do you know when they reach enlightenment?"

    "That’s the easy part! Every morning I count them. The ones who have left – have reached enlightenment!"
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« Reply #428 on: November 04, 2013, 10:37:52 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means. 
Me neither, but you do know what Yahwist means and I think for that we can all be grateful.

In Christ,
Andrew

Actually, I wish I didn't know.  Really.  When I was in college, I came across the term "Yahwist" in a biblical studies course, and that was fine.  But this newfangled Yahwist?  I'll bet even he who sits in the heavens laughs. 

Anyway, since when does the Bulgarian Patriarchate use Syriac?  Wink
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« Reply #429 on: November 04, 2013, 10:39:47 PM »

I'm pretty sure only Bulgarians who used to be Maronites use Syriac... Smiley
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« Reply #430 on: November 04, 2013, 10:42:32 PM »

I still don't know what "hmm har" means.  

I am guessing the use of the her manner of saying hem and haw.

To equivocate about Islam. To consider it as a Christian with some reservation.
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« Reply #431 on: November 04, 2013, 10:43:19 PM »

Man, I missed out on a lot...

Maronite, huh?  Nice.  There's a local parish now, I'd like to visit, but its Liturgy is always during or at the tail end of any Orthodox Liturgy in this area.  Sad
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« Reply #432 on: November 04, 2013, 10:44:13 PM »

I am guessing the use of the her manner of saying hem and haw.

To equivocate about Islam. To consider it as a Christian with some reservation.

What a mind you have, I would never have guessed that.  Actually, there are quite a few interesting minds here. 
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« Reply #433 on: November 04, 2013, 10:50:02 PM »

I am guessing the use of the her manner of saying hem and haw.

To equivocate about Islam. To consider it as a Christian with some reservation.

What a mind you have, I would never have guessed that.  Actually, there are quite a few interesting minds here. 

It's from living in too many Englishes.

In the country, hem-haw was used a lot. It sounded more like him-how're. Having heard poppy's English and extrapolating, that was my guess when I read it.
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« Reply #434 on: November 04, 2013, 10:54:55 PM »

What a mind you have, I would never have guessed that.  

I imagine Orthonorm as the American avatar of Nasreddin.
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« Reply #435 on: November 04, 2013, 10:58:51 PM »

What a mind you have, I would never have guessed that.  

I imagine Orthonorm as the American avatar of Nasreddin.

Sounds like this could be a clever insult.

Someone from the horrible part of the world this sounds like it originates from, the Orient, so Grurks and Pakindians let me know.
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« Reply #436 on: November 04, 2013, 11:00:45 PM »

What a mind you have, I would never have guessed that.  

I imagine Orthonorm as the American avatar of Nasreddin.

Sounds like this could be a clever insult.

I assure you it is not. I am quite fond of the Hodja.  Smiley
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« Reply #437 on: November 04, 2013, 11:20:44 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.
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« Reply #438 on: November 04, 2013, 11:28:55 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

lol Sufis believe in Wahdat al-Wujood. Salafis are 200 times more monotheist then Sufis are. Shi'ites are the better deal.
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« Reply #439 on: November 04, 2013, 11:38:32 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

lol Sufis believe in Wahdat al-Wujood. Salafis are 200 times more monotheist then Sufis are. Shi'ites are the better deal.

Those might be in the habit of taking themselves too seriously. 

Emphasize monotheism too much and you might find yourself out of the Truth.  Wink
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« Reply #440 on: November 04, 2013, 11:45:34 PM »


Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed.  

Yea a couple of corrections or retractions or wev. When I say studied Orthodoxy, I should have said looked into, because, it was mostly an overview. I read a few books, Fr Timothy Ware, a couple of his. I read The Wounded Heart and also the prayer books that are used. I went through the liturgy and also read all about the Jesus Prayer.  I listened to a tonne of stuff by Fr Hopko and other ppl who do podcasts on that site. I also bought a book from that Fr. on here. Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. It was ok for giving an overview.
I also started classes about the creed, going through that. I went to service twice.
What else...oh I learnt how to make them knotts on the prayer ropes. I read up on some saints and their Icons and I even had a couple of icons that, after reverting to Islam, I sent them by post to a Fr somewhere I duno, because I knew they had to be cared for properly.

That was the extent of my "study" so, a medium effort, more like a looked into though. I didn't want to be misleading.

Anyway, to reply briefly to this, I came from, no religious upbringing at all, so, the starting point for me was ....does God exist? Once I had decided that The One True God did exist, and I haven't ever wavered on that part, the rest was simply...whose account of All Mighty God is right?

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The councils and the changing canon.
...
...
...
You know all the stuff that I would have read about as  Muslim and been taught concerning Christianity.

But so all of that would have to be reconsidered if I knew that I was wrong about Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام)

But someone earlier mentioned that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Well, so, I am even fearful of considering that it might be true, because that in itself would be such a grave sin to me. So, it's rli hard to even still look into it.

But here I am none the lest, doing jus that. I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

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« Reply #441 on: November 04, 2013, 11:48:54 PM »


Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed. 

Yea a couple of corrections or retractions or wev. When I say studied Orthodoxy, I should have said looked into, because, it was mostly an overview. I read a few books, Fr Timothy Ware, a couple of his. I read The Wounded Heart and also the prayer books that are used. I went through the liturgy and also read all about the Jesus Prayer.  I listened to a tonne of stuff by Fr Hopko and other ppl who do podcasts on that site. I also bought a book from that Fr. on here. Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. It was ok for giving an overview.
I also started classes about the creed, going through that. I went to service twice.
What else...oh I learnt how to make them knotts on the prayer ropes. I read up on some saints and their Icons and I even had a couple of icons that, after reverting to Islam, I sent them by post to a Fr somewhere I duno, because I knew they had to be cared for properly.

That was the extent of my "study" so, a medium effort, more like a looked into though. I didn't want to be misleading.

Anyway, to reply briefly to this, I came from, no religious upbringing at all, so, the starting point for me was ....does God exist? Once I had decided that The One True God did exist, and I haven't ever wavered on that part, the rest was simply...whose account of All Mighty God is right?

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The councils and the changing canon.
...
...
...

Are you a Sunni or a Shiite?  Forgive me if you answered that elsewhere.
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« Reply #442 on: November 04, 2013, 11:54:57 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

Sufis - I have, and, no thanks.
Shias are not considered even Muslims

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« Reply #443 on: November 04, 2013, 11:59:35 PM »

I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

Quote from: Galatians 1:10
Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people?
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« Reply #444 on: November 05, 2013, 12:01:12 AM »

In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

Sufis - I have, and, no thanks.

May I ask why?
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« Reply #445 on: November 05, 2013, 12:02:20 AM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

Sufis - I have, and, no thanks.
Shias are not considered even Muslims

There's a nearby mosque where both Sunnis and Shias pray together just fine. In fact the woman that gave our tour of the whole Islamic center and mosque was a Shi'ite Iranian.

Thoughts on that? They consider each other Muslims there.
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« Reply #446 on: November 05, 2013, 12:03:25 AM »

I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

You can't please everybody....
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« Reply #447 on: November 05, 2013, 12:22:40 AM »

These seem appropriate here:

Quote
One day Nasrudin was sitting at court The King was complaining that his subjects were untruthful. "Majesty," said Nasrudin, "there is truth and truth. People must practice real truth before they can use relative truth. They always try the other way around. The result is that they take liberties with their man-made truth, because they know instinctively that it is only an invention."

The King thought that this was too complicated. "A thing must be true or false. I will make people tell the truth, and by this practice they will establish the habit of being truthful."

When the city gates were opened the next morning, a gallows had been erected in front of them, presided over by the captain of the royal guard. A herald announced:

'Whoever would enter the city must first answer the truth to a question which will be put to him by the captain of the guard."

Nasrudin, who had been waiting outside, stepped forward first.

The captain spoke: 'Where are you going? Tell the truth-the alternative is death by hanging."

"I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on those gallows."

"I don't believe you!"

'Very well, then. If I have told a lie, hang me!"

"But that would make it the truth!"

"Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."

Quote
People do not know where to look when they are seeking enlightenment. As a result, it is hardly surprising that they may attach themselves to any cult, immerse themselves in all manner of theories, believing that they have the capacity to distinguish the true from the false.

Nasrudin taught this in several ways. On one occasion a neighbor found him down on his knees looking for something.

''What have you lost, Mulla?"

"My key," said Nasrudin.

After a few minutes of searching, the other man said,

"Where did you drop it?"

"At home."

"Then why, for heaven's sake, are you looking here?"

"There is more light here."

This is one of the most famous of all Nasrudin tales, used by many Sufis, commenting upon people who seek exotic sources for enlightenment.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 12:42:06 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #448 on: November 05, 2013, 12:44:00 AM »

Roll Eyes

Sufis really are the smart alecs of the Muslim world.
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« Reply #449 on: November 05, 2013, 12:50:17 AM »

I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

Quote from: Galatians 1:10
Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people?

Curious, why NRSx?
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