The Qur'an, and hence the religion that is built around it, fails quite simply because it is not what it says it is: It is not the word of God/Allah (and, as a corollary, Muhammad is not the messenger of God/Allah, his "revelation" is false, etc). And we can know that it is not what it says it is because it fails in its own stated goals to serve as "reminder" of what came before (since it doesn't match what came before, if it's corrective, it wouldn't have to?
but instead only twists it around), and to bring people back to the true religion that has apparently been corrupted by the preexisting Christians and Jews (since Muslims can never show where the supposed corruption took place, only point to areas where the Bible contradicts the Qur'an as though that is self-evidently the same thing). Muftis would do more than show the contradictions. You know yourself probably, the average Christian (ok maybe not the average Orthodox Christian), can't manage more than throwing bible quotes at people, torn from their original context.
It is a bit of a Goldilocks religion who? (...but Muhammad's revelation was juuuust right), and I have always gotten a sense that there is some kind of "me too"-ism in its approach to other religions: The Jews have their prophets and patriarchs and the Christians theirs, but who ever thought that there should be a prophet from among the Arabs, or took to heart what he claims to have brought forth because God has revealed this new thing in 'clear Arabic'? (as the Qur'an congratulates itself for being...well whoopty-freaking-doo...er, excuse me...alhamdulilah...)
Some people, even Orthodox people, have said that the Qur'an and Islam are essentially no different than Christianity in this regard, as Christianity sees itself as the fulfillment of Judaism in some sense. I am not sympathetic to this view for at least a few reasons:
(1) At the time of Christ (and, in the Jews' view, of course also after Him), there was a preexisting belief in the coming of a Messiah. but they wanted him to overthrow the existing rulers of the day and to start a revolution? That's what they were expecting
For Christians, Jesus is that Messiah as well as being the Son of God. In contrast, by the time of Muhammad, for at least the Christians the Messiah had already come and it had been accepted for centuries that there would be no other Messiah, nor any new prophets or new revelations after the deaths of the Apostles. So Muhammad is out. (For the Jews, not being one myself I can only say that as far as I know they do not accept Muhammad as a prophet, nor do they agree with the Qur'ans contention that somehow Jesus is the Messiah, so he would appear to be a failure in that religion, as well.)
(2) Christianity does not seek to strength itself by claiming any textual corruption on the part of the Jews, as we do indeed accept their scripture as our scripture (even though our canons and versions of accepted books differ for historical reasons). Rather, related to Christ's divinity and the authority invested in His interpretation as the final and only correct interpretation of whatever matter is at hand ("You have heard it said..., but I say unto you..."), we say that the Jews are mistaken in rejecting Him and His commands. This difference might seem subtle (e.g., Muslims or others could respond "Well, Christians and Jews are wrong in rejecting Muhammad and the commands brought in the Qur'an, too!"), but it is quite important. It lays in the source of authority by which someone can claim that they should be followed, as we say that Muhammad brought a new revelation that contradicts what was known before, and cited as his authority revelations from "God" which no one else ever saw or was allowed to question. By contrast, at least for Christians, as Jesus is God, that's the only authority He needs. Muhammad, not being God, cannot claim the same authority.
For all these reasons and more, I find Islam very flawed, and have no trouble at all rejecting it. It only even gets brought up in the context of comparison to Christianity or Judaism because it has falsely wedged itself into some sort of vague "Abrahamic" family (com'on...even Christians and Jews share some of the same texts, and their rituals share some common ancestry), but at its roots it is something else, bringing a new revelation that is not believed by any preexisting religion (all the while claiming to be in conformity with them), from a prophet who nobody asked for, to a marginal people who, were it not for their false prophet and the religion he and his successors forced upon the world (including Arabia proper), would not have much in the way of non-regional accomplishments, literary culture, etc
I don't really understand what you're on about because you're not very pithy and i'm losing the will to live a bit in your post. It's like you brought yr own bottle of wine to a party only to be able to say how rubbish the wine is.
But so I read a lot about the Ottoman Empire and all that Islam achieved and contributed to the world.
No wonder Muslims insist that the Qur'an is Muhammad's miracle. I don't buy it. Islam is bunk. In your humble limited opinion
I have known several Christians of various persuasions who converted to Islam (most did not stay Muslims), there's always church/religious butterflies but none of them as far as I can remember had either come from or considered Orthodox Christianity prior to becoming Muslims, I did. for whatever that distinction is worth. If I understand one of the replies to your OP correctly, you came back from a visit to Greece with an interest in Islam, which strikes me as interesting since as far as I know Islam has historically been confined to a few minority populations in Greece, and strongly concentrated in a few islands relative to the much larger Eastern Orthodox population of the country. So please do share with us, if you wouldn't mind. I'll try to just absorb your point of view, and ask questions instead of arguing. No. I don't need that right now. I just only want to pick through what ppl have already posted and think about the good post properly. People don't stop to think about stuff properly, it's important. There is enough info here for me already. I will ask for more stuff when I need it. But thanks.
I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, No. 57)
It's pretty far from the prodigal son, y'know? I can show you some equally difficult parts from the bible and the God of love and forgiveness that is also spoken of and where God instructs people to do certain things that seem a bit off for a loving God.
The All Mighty God is both the most loving, merciful and unfathomable as well as being totally terrifying.
We in the Coptic Orthodox tradition pray at the end of every hour to the Lord who "does not desire the death of the sinner, but rather that he returns and lives" and "who calls all to salvation with the promise of the good things to come". In the case of Islam, it seems to relish in the death of the sinner, and hastens to bring it about by any means Islamically permissible. Sad
Seems to. I agree, It can seem that way.
Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. There are three days to repent.
Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all. Again, I could equally bring up stuff here about Christianity as well, and what the bible teaches, but likewise, both will have explanations from their respective sides.
This kind of discussion gets us no where and it's a bare waste of my time and yours.
Poppy's reasoning for using "Allah" instead of "God" only works if you believe Islam has some sort of theological copyright on the word "Allah", which it doesn't it doesn't have to 'work', i'm just telling you the reason.
(sorry, Malaysia, and smug, self-satisfied Muslims everywhere; we used it in worship before Islam or Muhammad ever existed and we're not relinquishing it to you for anything). Given the demographics of the Arabic-speaking people I surround myself with, if someone used "Allah" around me, I would assume they were Coptic Orthodox or Catholic. It's the Islamic uniform for the women that would tip me off that they weren't, since with the exception of Tewahedo I've never known any Orthodox women who remained veiled outside of Church.
Blessed Mary did? A good example to follow.
I'm sorry to come back to this (I'll drop it after this post, unless she responds herself), but isn't the effect the same? Dead is dead either way, and after death there is no repentance. I've been writing about effects because Poppy wrote about the side-effect of the murder (or some such), so I'm writing about other effects of that mindset that I think reveal something of the wide chasm between Christianity and Islam, which make it difficult to understand where Muslims are seeing this abundance of love and mercy in their religion (don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be there, I just don't see it).
Who says that the extra time the person is given will result in repentance?? That is way too risky. They have 3 days, that is enough time. As you know in Islam it is all about making your good deeds outweigh your bad. Do they need more time so that they end up in such a bad place for much longer or even forever? Say they have 3 years to repent and do, but right at the last bit of that 3 years. They have 2 years and 11months of badness they built up that might even nullify their repentance depending on what it was and how much and for how long.
Also, people got/get killed for all kinds of reasons, death row in the states and also for treason in this country and a tonne of others. Yet we go weak at the thought of the biggest insult to All Mighty, someone turning their back on the God who gives them every breath in their body and is their all source and resource. (reminds me of Hebrews 11) and yet this reason is lower down the scale than human justice and insult??
Anyway, I don't want to have a spat about this. You asked and so I answered but it's way off from what I need so If you reply back about it, I won't carry on the discussion. Really, it's just an exercise that's all. It don't add anything.
We speak very different theological languages, so while this is great when it is possible, I am not sure that I agree that it is always the source of the most fruitful discussions. You tell a Muslim that we believe in one God, and they just revert to the same Islamic distortion about our faith and how we have associated others with God. Same has happened here too misunderstandings from Christians about Islam. No matter how much it's explained, the explanations just aren't accepted. Both sides think the others' answer is messed up and so the answer is rejected and the misinformation continues.
They really cannot countenance that the truth may be as the Christian puts it about our own belief, as that would mean that the Qur'an (and hence Muhammad and Allah) are wrong about something, and the whole house of cards just collapses (since Islam is built around "the book"). Not always the case. Your thinking only one dimensionally, this is the only reason I can think of so it must be true. Sometimes it's not understood because of cultural reasons or just a lack of comprehension about the actual concept itself. Like for instance, the incantation.
You've seen it in this very thread, in your own continued attempts to correct Poppy regarding Christian theology. You really think Muslims, particularly neophytes all fired up about their newest unchanging truth, are going to take correction from those they see their new religion as being the supreme corrector of? Please, Mina...
But with me....seeing as you mentioned me in particular. It's incomprehensible, especially about the incarnation,so i find it not only difficult to hold that thought but also to even say it or talk about it. It's not a matter of rejecting your truth, I promise. That don't need a 'tut and rolly eyes', it just need repeating and bit of frikin patience.
The Christians' ultimate victory is on the last day, while we were certainly promised tribulations before that. I know that Islam in some ways sees its victory over all other religions in very temporal terms (while also concerning itself with final judgment, of course), but what can I say...you can't fit Christians pegs in Islamic holes, or vice versa.
The Church is victorious every time a sinner returns, every time a convert is received, every time the true body and blood of our Savior is given to us, every time a new house of worship is consecrated, every time the Gospel is proclaimed, every time a martyr is crowned, etc. Perhaps you don't see these things because Islam sees victory in different terms, but they're still how we measure things. The kingdom of God is not of this world, but where and when it counts, the Church is victorious, and will always be victorious. Even before Islam I had this question to Fr Chris (where is he btw?)
Where have you seen otherwise in my posts here? I asked some questions about some things in Islam that don't make sense to me just as Poppy has asked some questions about things in Christianity that don't make sense to her. This is how dialogue is supposed to work, no? I don't pull any punches about what I don't like about Islam, but you'll notice, I hope, that Poppy has considered my posts and responded to them (thank you for this, Poppy; it helps me to learn your perspective) and not dismissed them as being rude or confrontational as she has with those of others, so I would think that this is enough to continue dialogue, insofar as we have not made the faith out to be about what the other religion isn't, in either case.
I only answered your posts like this because I felt for you because of what minas said. And also you wasn't rude to me personally, but minas is right, more of your posts was about what Islam isn't rather than what Christianity is. It's all good though. But they were a bit predictable. Seeing that you asked -)