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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 14377 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #270 on: November 02, 2013, 12:14:36 AM »

Oh ok sorry, I just now saw the word apostates.

That probably comes down to the mercy of Allah and the good deeds they have done up until that time as a Muslim. But I can't be like i'm issuing a fatwa about it because i'm not. Allah knows best.

Did you see any of those gruesome videos of Muslims beheading "apostates" who had left Islam for Christianity?

Indeed, Allah knows best and there will be a day of reckoning...
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« Reply #271 on: November 02, 2013, 12:15:45 AM »

Anyway, it's nearly fajr (first early dawn prayers) so I need to log off.

(no, I didn't view the videos)
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« Reply #272 on: November 02, 2013, 12:17:52 AM »

Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all.
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« Reply #273 on: November 02, 2013, 12:19:45 AM »

Anyway, it's nearly fajr (first early dawn prayers) so I need to log off.

(no, I didn't view the videos)

If you ever do see them (and I think you should), just think for a minute that - had you been born in a Muslim country instead of a Christian one and chosen to convert - it may well have been your throat they were cutting bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim.

John 16:2 - "Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God."
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« Reply #274 on: November 02, 2013, 12:50:14 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.
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« Reply #275 on: November 02, 2013, 01:14:59 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.
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« Reply #276 on: November 02, 2013, 01:26:02 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.
That's because you haven't experienced the Egyptian charm.  angel
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« Reply #277 on: November 02, 2013, 01:54:12 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.
That's because you haven't experienced the Egyptian charm.  angel

True enough. If it were the Egyptian charm, he wouldn't have let her leave without 5 Amr Diab CDs, two awful V-neck tshirts, and an icon of the Theotokos covered in twinkly lights.

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« Reply #278 on: November 02, 2013, 02:20:37 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.
That's because you haven't experienced the Egyptian charm.  angel

True enough. If it were the Egyptian charm, he wouldn't have let her leave without 5 Amr Diab CDs, two awful V-neck tshirts, and an icon of the Theotokos covered in twinkly lights.



I do love Amr Diab's music, but twinkly lights on my icons, not so much.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 02:20:55 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #279 on: November 02, 2013, 02:28:32 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.

Well that is rather insulting to poppy.
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« Reply #280 on: November 02, 2013, 02:36:52 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.

Well that is rather insulting to poppy.

Considering she doesn't have a problem with Muslims murdering someone who leaves the religion of "peace," I would say my disparagement is rather light.
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« Reply #281 on: November 02, 2013, 02:38:44 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

And just like that, a British girl rejects her kind and anything to do with them, even accepting death on all non-mohamedians.

Perhaps some superficially charming British Arab or Paki has something to do with her devotion to Islam. I would be willing to bet on it. Charm is a middle eastern specialty. I remember once being in an Italian men's clothing store owned by a Lebanese gentlemen who was using every charismatic trick in the book to make a sale with me. Finally, I said with a wry little smile," I grew up in a church full of Arab men just like you. Your Lebanese charm has no impact on me. "

"Okay," he said,"I will give you the Lebanese discount."

I laughed and walked out of the store.

I need to start a school for foolish young white girls to save them from this nonsense.

Well that is rather insulting to poppy.

Considering she doesn't have a problem with Muslims murdering someone who leaves the religion of peace, I would say my disparagement is rather light.

Guess you've never read that Gospel of Jesus? Or poppy's post either.
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« Reply #282 on: November 02, 2013, 02:40:17 AM »

I don't think anyone understood what poppy was trying to say in her post, I've reread her posts here, so I think I do.

But what I find interesting is what is the grand apology for death we hear about from the Orthodox?

Sounds sorta similar.
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« Reply #283 on: November 02, 2013, 02:51:19 AM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)

She seems to be at peace with this teaching as she writes " Allah, knows best"
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« Reply #284 on: November 02, 2013, 02:57:05 AM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)

She seems to be at peace with this teaching as she writes " Allah, knows best"

Allah does? Doesn't He?

And why does God allow death? You might want to take a look at the tradition apologetics for that tangle. Why not let a man live till the next age giving him as much time as possible to repent?

You might find what poppy is attempting to say ain't far from apologies you are going to read.

Before arguing with others about their faith, best to learn a little, just a little about your own, lest you find yourself confronted by someone who knows yours better than you and rather than humble yourself and remain silent you bring scandal onto the faith you hold onto.
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« Reply #285 on: November 02, 2013, 05:21:39 AM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)

She seems to be at peace with this teaching as she writes " Allah, knows best"

 والله أعلم

Means that even when we do give any answer, we are recognising, in that moment we speak as one with knowledge, that God is all source of knowledge. It's a humility thing, to stop someone getting up theirself and also, to remember God in that exact moment.

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have. It is remembrance that God is provider of all our days.




And no Tamara, there was no bloke involved with my reversion.
It don't really insult me, what you said, but rather more yourself, at the arrogance of your thoughts and the indictment that you place on our sex.
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« Reply #286 on: November 02, 2013, 05:23:34 AM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.
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« Reply #287 on: November 02, 2013, 05:32:07 AM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It would be number 1 on my list of traits that I want in my life. It is the very heart of worship and the core of humility.

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« Reply #288 on: November 02, 2013, 05:33:01 AM »

Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all.

Any reply to this post, Poppy?
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« Reply #289 on: November 02, 2013, 05:37:03 AM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?
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« Reply #290 on: November 02, 2013, 05:54:16 AM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?

Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

It's not just some superficial (ugh what's the term for the ppl with all vintage clothes and big glasses - fgot) well it's not just for some dumb reason. It's like transubstantiation and how the Orthodox don't use that word because it means something specific which isn't quite what you believe. But you don't have another word for that process so, you just say it's a mystery. But you don't use that word for that reason. It's not correct and it would be misleading depending on who was listening. Like ppl would think you were Catholic if they heard you use it. (If i remember right). But if I said God willing, everyone would think me Christian who heard it plus it's not correct for what I want to express. Plus it's not a statement for the hearer but for the speaker.

LBK, (in sha'Allah) will reply to it after out and back. Got to get some food in.

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« Reply #291 on: November 02, 2013, 06:06:52 AM »

If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

Christians don't think that God has partners or co-equals.
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« Reply #292 on: November 02, 2013, 11:59:31 AM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It would be number 1 on my list of traits that I want in my life. It is the very heart of worship and the core of humility.



This reminds me of a time when my spiritual father asked me a trick question:  "How many times a day should we pray?" Thinking of the rules of the book of prayer of the hours, I said "7!"  He told me, "wrong, my son!  We're not a legalistic Church.  We have 7 recommended hours, but the ideal of the Christian spiritual life is that we "pray without ceasing" (1 Thes. 5:17).  Indeed, it's a beautiful thing to unceasingly pray to God in everything we do.

I think you'll like the same idea also in our Coptic Thanksgiving Prayer we recite daily:

"Oh Master Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, we thank you for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition.  For you have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and have brought us to this very hour.  Therefore, we ask and entreat your goodness, oh Lover of mankind, grant us to complete this holy day, and all the days of our lives in all peace with your fear.  All envy, all temptation, all the working of Satan, all the council of wicked men, and the rising up of enemies, hidden or manifest, take them away from us, from all Your people, from Your Church, and from Your Holy Altar in Your Church.  But those things which are good and profitable for us do provide for us.  For it is You who has given us the authority to trample down serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy."

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« Reply #293 on: November 02, 2013, 12:10:07 PM »

You said you were bowing out of this thread.

Just because one thing is true, (ie..committing oneself knowing the consequences of leaving Islam), It doesn't make everything else, untrue (ie...the love and mercy or Allah, subhana wa ta 3la)

And now I'm back, is there a problem with that? No it does not make everything else untrue, I am saying it is invalidating itself by saying one thing then another in a different section. It is like if I say I'm one thing and then the next day I am another. It doesn't change the basics about me but it does make it hard for others to believe stuff I say.
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« Reply #294 on: November 02, 2013, 12:22:55 PM »

Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all.

Any reply to this post, Poppy?

No because Poppy thinks if one knows the full consequence of committing to Islam and leaving....RIP. She mentioned so in a quote of one of my replies. To worship a God who demands that a person's life be ended for leaving the faith versus one that allows repentance and true forgiveness seems like madness to me. There is no love and mercy in murder. The relationship between the Christian view of God to the faithful is a loving, caring one where God in Islam is to be feared, to be pleased. I suppose now that my stress is over here (thank goodness) I can reply with some conviction and sense finally.
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« Reply #295 on: November 02, 2013, 12:49:28 PM »

Well, to be fair (much fairer to Islam than Islam is to anything, including apostates), it is written in the Psalms that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, though that's just it: it's the beginning, not the end. I've never been Muslim (almajdulilah/Glory be to God), but it seems to me from what Muslims like Poppy write, Islam never gets past this beginning. Maybe it can't because the relationship with God is so different? I dunno. I would count this as another indictment against the religion, and particularly the "killing people for their own good" idea that Poppy has introduced -- in the same way that killing people for their own good robs them of their ability to repent, killing them also robs them of their ability to grow in love for God, which is of course fundamental to repentance. Y'know, if I had killed myself at my first sign of spiritual trouble in the RCC, I would've never found Orthodoxy...I wonder if Poppy would be so understanding about converts to Islam being killed, as has been known to happen sometimes (though much more rarely than to converts from Islam).
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« Reply #296 on: November 02, 2013, 12:58:36 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?

Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

It's not just some superficial (ugh what's the term for the ppl with all vintage clothes and big glasses - fgot) well it's not just for some dumb reason. It's like transubstantiation and how the Orthodox don't use that word because it means something specific which isn't quite what you believe. But you don't have another word for that process so, you just say it's a mystery. But you don't use that word for that reason. It's not correct and it would be misleading depending on who was listening. Like ppl would think you were Catholic if they heard you use it. (If i remember right). But if I said God willing, everyone would think me Christian who heard it plus it's not correct for what I want to express. Plus it's not a statement for the hearer but for the speaker.

LBK, (in sha'Allah) will reply to it after out and back. Got to get some food in.



Poppy,

I did say God has no partners or co-equals.  In fact, we as Arab Christians also use "Allah".  In John chapter 1, it is written,  "فِي البَدْءِ كانَ الكَلِمَةُ   مَوْجُوداً، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ مَعَ اللهِ، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهَ."  Fi al bidaya (In the beginning) kan el Kalima (was the Word), mawgoodan (exists) wa kan al Kalima ma'a Allah (and the Word was with God), wa kan al Kalima howa Allah (and the Word was God)."

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

How can we call each "fully God"?  Take the analogy of the Sun.  If you can visualize the orb of the sun, you can identify it as the Sun.  If a blind man can feel warm in the morning, He will mention he is warmed by the Sun, or warmed by the Heat of the Sun, both meaning the same thing.  If a man from the dark comes out and sees because of light, He sees by the Sun, or He sees by the Light of the Sun.  The orb is Sun, the Light is Sun, the Heat is Sun, and these three are One Sun.
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« Reply #297 on: November 02, 2013, 01:10:40 PM »

Poppy's reasoning for using "Allah" instead of "God" only works if you believe Islam has some sort of theological copyright on the word "Allah", which it doesn't (sorry, Malaysia, and smug, self-satisfied Muslims everywhere; we used it in worship before Islam or Muhammad ever existed and we're not relinquishing it to you for anything). Given the demographics of the Arabic-speaking people I surround myself with, if someone used "Allah" around me, I would assume they were Coptic Orthodox or Catholic. It's the Islamic uniform for the women that would tip me off that they weren't, since with the exception of Tewahedo I've never known any Orthodox women who remained veiled outside of Church.
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« Reply #298 on: November 02, 2013, 01:13:52 PM »

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

I'd read about this sort of exposition of Trinitarian theology in the Medieval Arabic-speaking Christian world. The works I read called it the "attribute apology." Is it still commonly taught in Coptic circles? Either way, it's neat to see it still being used.
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« Reply #299 on: November 02, 2013, 01:19:44 PM »

I want to share with everyone else here that I sympathize in irky feeling about the tough verses of the Quran and how it is perceived in our culture, and in fact even taken literally by terrorists.  But in Poppy's defense, she seems to learn from a more reasonable school of thought.  She wrote here:

Oh ok sorry, I just now saw the word apostates.

That probably comes down to the mercy of Allah and the good deeds they have done up until that time as a Muslim. But I can't be like i'm issuing a fatwa about it because i'm not. Allah knows best.

It seems to me she's interpreting the verse as not advocating a corporal capital punishment of an apostate, but a capital divine punishment in the afterlife of an apostate, in saying "comes down to the mercy of Allah".

Whatever the case may be, I don't think it's for her benefit that we waste our time on the usual polemics against Islam.  After years of having these types of discussions, the most fruitful of discussions are ones that rely on the theological thoughts of the respective religions and more so the defense and clarification of our Christian faith in a loving way and a way that we can try to help a Muslim relate to the faith.
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« Reply #300 on: November 02, 2013, 01:24:59 PM »

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

I'd read about this sort of exposition of Trinitarian theology in the Medieval Arabic-speaking Christian world. The works I read called it the "attribute apology." Is it still commonly taught in Coptic circles? Either way, it's neat to see it still being used.

There is a slippery slope in the attribute theology though.  Some took the attributes in a literal Aristotelian sense (because Islamic philosophy was heavily dependent on Aristotelian philosophy, as was Scholasticism around the same time) and couldn't fathom theosis.  Others were careful to imply an attribute/essence distinction similar to the Palamite energy/essence distinction.
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« Reply #301 on: November 02, 2013, 01:25:54 PM »

Well, to be fair (much fairer to Islam than Islam is to anything, including apostates), it is written in the Psalms that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, though that's just it: it's the beginning, not the end. I've never been Muslim (almajdulilah/Glory be to God), but it seems to me from what Muslims like Poppy write, Islam never gets past this beginning. Maybe it can't because the relationship with God is so different? I dunno. I would count this as another indictment against the religion, and particularly the "killing people for their own good" idea that Poppy has introduced -- in the same way that killing people for their own good robs them of their ability to repent, killing them also robs them of their ability to grow in love for God, which is of course fundamental to repentance. Y'know, if I had killed myself at my first sign of spiritual trouble in the RCC, I would've never found Orthodoxy...I wonder if Poppy would be so understanding about converts to Islam being killed, as has been known to happen sometimes (though much more rarely than to converts from Islam).

In Islam, God predestines whether they believe or not. So killing them was predestined by Allah.
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« Reply #302 on: November 02, 2013, 01:45:10 PM »

It seems to me she's interpreting the verse as not advocating a corporal capital punishment of an apostate, but a capital divine punishment in the afterlife of an apostate, in saying "comes down to the mercy of Allah".

I'm sorry to come back to this (I'll drop it after this post, unless she responds herself), but isn't the effect the same? Dead is dead either way, and after death there is no repentance. I've been writing about effects because Poppy wrote about the side-effect of the murder (or some such), so I'm writing about other effects of that mindset that I think reveal something of the wide chasm between Christianity and Islam, which make it difficult to understand where Muslims are seeing this abundance of love and mercy in their religion (don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be there, I just don't see it).

Quote
Whatever the case may be, I don't think it's for her benefit that we waste our time on the usual polemics against Islam.

To be frank, I don't it's to anyone's benefit that they convert to Islam in the first place. Call that polemical if you want, but I too have been having these discussions with Muslims (both neophytes and born Muslims) for years, and the only substantial headway I have made has come about when (a) I've alerted them to the native expressions of Christianity as it is in the Middle Eastern land of its birth (which is helpful to dispel the myth that Christianity is somehow a "Western" religion), and (b) they've seen in my approach an uncompromising defense of the faith, as there are likewise some who see us as weak not only theologically, but in terms of our commitment to our religion (this came up a lot in the wake of the Muhammad cartoon debacle a few years ago, when they kept trying to say "But you don't understand the depth of our feelings towards our religion and our prophet, since you're a Christian and Christians don't care about their religion" -- it was then that I first began invoking the idea that Muslims don't have or get to have more feelings than the rest of us, which I have repeated on this board as necessary; either we're both made of the same "stuff", or they're something different and ultimately worse for the violent irrationality displayed by the worst of them in defense of their religion, and therefore all of them should be treated accordingly, since it is not in our interest to wait to be murdered by those who think they are acting in service of God just because not all of them would do that [to be clear, this is a polemic to make a point; I don't believe Muslims are ultimately any different than the rest of us, even if they think they are the best of creatures or whatever the exact Qur'anic wording is]).

Quote
the most fruitful of discussions are ones that rely on the theological thoughts of the respective religions and more so the defense and clarification of our Christian faith in a loving way and a way that we can try to help a Muslim relate to the faith.

We speak very different theological languages, so while this is great when it is possible, I am not sure that I agree that it is always the source of the most fruitful discussions. You tell a Muslim that we believe in one God, and they just revert to the same Islamic distortion about our faith and how we have associated others with God. They really cannot countenance that the truth may be as the Christian puts it about our own belief, as that would mean that the Qur'an (and hence Muhammad and Allah) are wrong about something, and the whole house of cards just collapses (since Islam is built around "the book"). You've seen it in this very thread, in your own continued attempts to correct Poppy regarding Christian theology. You really think Muslims, particularly neophytes all fired up about their newest unchanging truth, are going to take correction from those they see their new religion as being the supreme corrector of? Please, Mina...
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« Reply #303 on: November 02, 2013, 02:19:46 PM »


Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.


Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin
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« Reply #304 on: November 02, 2013, 02:47:22 PM »


Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.


Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin

The problem with that is Allah is Aramaic word that was used of the God of Israel before Islam.

Syriac Orthodox Hymn: Shlom Lekh, 'Hail Mary'
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« Reply #305 on: November 02, 2013, 02:55:04 PM »


Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.


Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin

The problem with that is Allah is Aramaic word that was used of the God of Israel before Islam.

Syriac Orthodox Hymn: Shlom Lekh, 'Hail Mary'

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink
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« Reply #306 on: November 02, 2013, 02:56:57 PM »


Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.


Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin

And when you say Theos you refer to chief god of Greek polytheism....
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« Reply #307 on: November 02, 2013, 02:57:50 PM »

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...
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« Reply #308 on: November 02, 2013, 02:58:30 PM »


And when you say Theos you refer to chief god of Greek polytheism....

No. The chief god of Greek polytheism was named Zeus, not theos.  laugh
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« Reply #309 on: November 02, 2013, 02:59:04 PM »

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...

Typo.. I meant Alaha... Alaha is not the same as Allah.
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« Reply #310 on: November 02, 2013, 02:59:56 PM »

You are definitely confusing Aloha with Allah.  Wink

Whereas you confuse Hawaiian with Syriac...
That really says it all. Thanks LOL.
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« Reply #311 on: November 02, 2013, 03:00:02 PM »


And when you say Theos you refer to chief god of Greek polytheism....

No. The chief god of Greek polytheism was named Zeus, not theos.  laugh

Not again....


Did the Apostles forget that Jupiter was called Θεός?

Jupiter was Jupiter's name, not Theos.  Wink

From the Odyssey, XIV:439-445

Quote
αἴθ᾽ οὕτως, Εὔμαιε, φίλος Διὶ πατρὶ γένοιο
ὡς ἐμοί, ὅττι τε τοῖον ἐόντ᾽ ἀγαθοῖσι γεραίρεις.

τὸν δ᾽ ἀπαμειβόμενος προσέφης, Εὔμαιε συβῶτα:
‘ἔσθιε, δαιμόνιε ξείνων, καὶ τέρπεο τοῖσδε,
οἷα πάρεστι: θεὸς δὲ τὸ μὲν δώσει, τὸ δ᾽ ἐάσει,
ὅττι κεν ᾧ θυμῷ ἐθέλῃ: δύναται γὰρ ἅπαντα.

Quote
I hope, Eumaeus," said he, "that Jove will be as well disposed
towards you as I am, for the respect you are showing to an outcast like myself."

To this you answered, O swineherd Eumaeus,
"Eat, my good fellow, and enjoy your supper,
such as it is. God grants this, and withholds that,
just as he thinks right, for he can do whatever he chooses."

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« Reply #312 on: November 02, 2013, 03:03:15 PM »


And when you say Theos you refer to chief god of Greek polytheism....

No. The chief god of Greek polytheism was named Zeus, not theos.  laugh

"O God most glorious, called by many a name,
Nature's great King, through endless years the same;
Omnipotence, who by thy just decree
Controllest all, hail, Zeus, for unto thee
Behoves thy creatures in all lands to call.
We are thy children, we alone, of all
On earth's broad ways that wander to and fro,
Bearing thy image wheresoe'er we go.
Wherefore with songs of praise thy power I will forth show.
Lo! yonder heaven, that round the earth is wheeled,
Follows thy guidance, still to thee doth yield
Glad homage; thine unconquerable hand
Such flaming-minister, the levin-brand,
Wieldeth, a sword two-edged, whose deathless might
Pulsates through all that Nature brings to light;
Vehicle of the universal Word, that flows
Through all, and in the light celestial glows
Of stars both great and small. O King of Kings
Through ceaseless ages, God, whose purpose brings
To birth, whate'er on land or in the sea
Is wrought, or in high heaven's immensity;
Save what the sinner works infatuate.
Nay, but thou knowest to make the crooked straight:
Chaos to thee is order: in thine eyes
The unloved is lovely, who did'st harmonise
Things evil with things good, that there should be
One Word through all things everlastingly.
One Word -- whose voice alas! the wicked spurn;
Insatiate for the good their spirits yearn:
Yet seeing see not, neither hearing hear
God's universal law, which those revere,
By reason guided, happiness who win.
The rest, unreasoning, diverse shapes of sin
Self-prompted follow: for an idle name
Vainly they wrestle in the lists of fame:
Others inordinately Riches woo,
Or dissolute, the joys of flesh pursue.
Now here, now there they wander, fruitless still,
For ever seeking good and finding ill.
Zeus the all-beautiful, whom darkness shrouds,
Whose lightning lightens in the thunder clouds;
Thy children save from error's deadly sway:
Turn thou the darkness from their souls away:
Vouchsafe that unto knowledge they attain;
For thou by knowledge art made strong to reign
O'er all, and all things rulest righteously.
So by thee honoured, we will honour thee,
Praising thy works continuously with songs,
As mortals should; nor higher meed belongs
E'en to the gods, than justly to adore
The universal law for evermore."

-Cleanthes, 2nd Century BC
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« Reply #313 on: November 02, 2013, 03:04:06 PM »


And when you say Theos you refer to chief god of Greek polytheism....

No. The chief god of Greek polytheism was named Zeus, not theos.  laugh

Not again....


Did the Apostles forget that Jupiter was called Θεός?

Jupiter was Jupiter's name, not Theos.  Wink

From the Odyssey, XIV:439-445

Quote
αἴθ᾽ οὕτως, Εὔμαιε, φίλος Διὶ πατρὶ γένοιο
ὡς ἐμοί, ὅττι τε τοῖον ἐόντ᾽ ἀγαθοῖσι γεραίρεις.

τὸν δ᾽ ἀπαμειβόμενος προσέφης, Εὔμαιε συβῶτα:
‘ἔσθιε, δαιμόνιε ξείνων, καὶ τέρπεο τοῖσδε,
οἷα πάρεστι: θεὸς δὲ τὸ μὲν δώσει, τὸ δ᾽ ἐάσει,
ὅττι κεν ᾧ θυμῷ ἐθέλῃ: δύναται γὰρ ἅπαντα.

Quote
I hope, Eumaeus," said he, "that Jove will be as well disposed
towards you as I am, for the respect you are showing to an outcast like myself."

To this you answered, O swineherd Eumaeus,
"Eat, my good fellow, and enjoy your supper,
such as it is. God grants this, and withholds that,
just as he thinks right, for he can do whatever he chooses."


The only thing your quote proves is that Zeus was addressed as God (theos) because theos means God in Greek. Theos was not the name of the chief god of Greek polytheism as you claim.  Grin
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« Reply #314 on: November 02, 2013, 03:05:40 PM »

The Theos is Zeus.
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