Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 25014 times)

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #945 on: May 07, 2014, 02:51:31 PM »
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #946 on: May 07, 2014, 03:13:22 PM »

If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?

I am on my way to maghrib prayers so after, Allah (SWT) permitting, I will be glad to answer this. I won't forget.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #947 on: May 07, 2014, 03:18:44 PM »

Call me paranoid, but I get the sense you have an axe to grind.  ;)

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #948 on: May 07, 2014, 05:08:05 PM »
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #949 on: May 07, 2014, 06:26:28 PM »
Poppy, I genuinely have a soft spot for you, and I empathize with your search for religious truth.  But I still get a hearty chuckle at your over-the-top convertitus jargon and acronym usage. 
It's not particularly different from a lot of Orthodox converts, mind you, but it's still amusing (and a little grating).

I suppose when you start talking more like any of the rest of the Muslims I know--very active in their practice or not--I'll know that we've truly "lost" you to that side of things.  Until then, I hold out hope.  :angel:
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #950 on: May 08, 2014, 07:51:54 AM »
Poppy, I genuinely have a soft spot for you, and I empathize with your search for religious truth.  But I still get a hearty chuckle at your over-the-top convertitus jargon and acronym usage. 
It's not particularly different from a lot of Orthodox converts, mind you, but it's still amusing (and a little grating).

I suppose when you start talking more like any of the rest of the Muslims I know--very active in their practice or not--I'll know that we've truly "lost" you to that side of things.  Until then, I hold out hope.  :angel:

Kind of reminds me of the little rich teenage white girl who gets her first black boyfriend then starts listening to hard rap and talking about "our struggle."

PP
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #951 on: May 08, 2014, 05:31:49 PM »
Poppy, I genuinely have a soft spot for you well don't. I am not a puppy you can pat on the head!!, and I empathize with your search for religious truth.  But I still get a hearty chuckle at your over-the-top convertitus jargon and acronym usage.  
It's not particularly different from a lot of Orthodox converts, mind you, but it's still amusing (and a little grating).

I suppose when you start talking more like any of the rest of the Muslims I know Nauzubillah min zaliq (may Allah save us from that),--very active in their practice or not NOT--I'll know that we've truly "lost" you to that side of things.  Until then, I hold out hope.  :angel:



Kind of reminds me of the little rich teenage white girl who gets her first black boyfriend then starts listening to hard rap and talking about "our struggle."

PP
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:33:07 PM by Poppy »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #952 on: May 08, 2014, 07:01:49 PM »
When you have the opportunity, could you answer my question, Poppy?  :)
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #953 on: May 09, 2014, 08:59:15 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 09:00:02 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #954 on: May 09, 2014, 09:03:18 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (5/30/2015)

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #955 on: May 09, 2014, 09:16:54 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #956 on: May 09, 2014, 09:28:57 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.
Not everything I type or have typed in the past is reflective of the teaching of the Orthodox Church, or may not reflect my contemporary views on a subject. (5/30/2015)

I am scaling back posting because the crack in my computer screen makes it harder and harder to type.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #957 on: May 09, 2014, 09:43:14 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.
Or maybe others are following it incorrectly. Then again, interpretation is apparently at the heart of all this Islam stuff nowadays, isn't it?

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline hecma925

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #958 on: May 09, 2014, 10:37:47 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.
Or maybe others are following it incorrectly. Then again, interpretation is apparently at the heart of all this Islam stuff nowadays, isn't it?

PP

Apparently.  The Muslims I know don't do it.  Are they less Muslim because of that?  I doubt it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #959 on: May 09, 2014, 11:30:19 AM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.
Or maybe others are following it incorrectly. Then again, interpretation is apparently at the heart of all this Islam stuff nowadays, isn't it?

PP

Apparently.  The Muslims I know don't do it.  Are they less Muslim because of that?  I doubt it.
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."
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Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #960 on: May 09, 2014, 11:55:01 AM »

If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?

Ok, sorry for taking a day or two but your question wasn't as simple as it originally seemed. You have to appreciate that I cannot speak without knowledge regarding either the Qur'an, Ahadith and Sunnah or really any scholar.

You seem like you know quite a bit about Islam already by the way you structured your question.


Firstly, we don't really follow scholars, we follow Allah (SWT) and Allah (SWT) guides us. The scholars teach, and depending on how learned they are, will give an indication of how respected they are in the four main schools (Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki and Shafi) obviously some very wise scholars who evidence their every statement with a strong hadith, Qur'an guidance and maybe even Sunnah will be on solid ground and grow in their knowledge and blessing. It is all about how closely scholars stay embedded within this structure handed down, memorised and unchanged, to every Muslim.

This is not dissimilar to your church fathers some agreeing with each other on issues and some not, but their main fundamental beliefs are the same. Also, the way that Muslims memorise all of the Qur'an as was the practice before it was ever written. A little like your church Tradition orally passed down through the church fathers.

There are, of course, some scholars who become misguided on some issues and some who have an agenda that is far from Islamic and therefore might use the Qur'an, Sunnah and Ahadith as backing for their own desires. This also happens in Christianity but these people in both religions, are far from followed by the majority of core people.

I hope this has answered your question and I hope I haven't said anything wrong.
May Allah forgive me if I did as Allah (SWT) knows best.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 11:58:15 AM by Poppy »

Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #961 on: May 09, 2014, 12:06:20 PM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.

This is correct.
All of the cradle Muslims at Mosque and the reverts say it all the time. There is no difference between the reverts and the cradles in this.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #962 on: May 09, 2014, 12:16:44 PM »

If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?

Ok, sorry for taking a day or two but your question wasn't as simple as it originally seemed. You have to appreciate that I cannot speak without knowledge regarding either the Qur'an, Ahadith and Sunnah or really any scholar.

You seem like you know quite a bit about Islam already by the way you structured your question.


Firstly, we don't really follow scholars, we follow Allah (SWT) and Allah (SWT) guides us. The scholars teach, and depending on how learned they are, will give an indication of how respected they are in the four main schools (Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki and Shafi) obviously some very wise scholars who evidence their every statement with a strong hadith, Qur'an guidance and maybe even Sunnah will be on solid ground and grow in their knowledge and blessing. It is all about how closely scholars stay embedded within this structure handed down, memorised and unchanged, to every Muslim.

This is not dissimilar to your church fathers some agreeing with each other on issues and some not, but their main fundamental beliefs are the same. Also, the way that Muslims memorise all of the Qur'an as was the practice before it was ever written. A little like your church Tradition orally passed down through the church fathers.

There are, of course, some scholars who become misguided on some issues and some who have an agenda that is far from Islamic and therefore might use the Qur'an, Sunnah and Ahadith as backing for their own desires. This also happens in Christianity but these people in both religions, are far from followed by the majority of core people.

I hope this has answered your question and I hope I haven't said anything wrong.
May Allah forgive me if I did as Allah (SWT) knows best.


Interesting.  Thanks for the explanation.  :)
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #963 on: May 09, 2014, 12:43:08 PM »
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #964 on: May 09, 2014, 12:56:50 PM »
Honestly, IME, the only Muslims I've personally come into contact with that did the constant honorifics were semi-radicalized cradles/converts in a Middle Eastern Studies department a relative of mine was in at the time. That includes having received tours at two different mosques - one strictly Sunni, and the other Sunni/Shi'a.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #965 on: May 09, 2014, 01:37:58 PM »
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
What is an atheist Muslim?
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #966 on: May 09, 2014, 03:06:53 PM »
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
What is an atheist Muslim?
Iqbal once said that he didn't care if God (or if you prefer "Allah") existed as long as Muhammad did.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #967 on: May 09, 2014, 03:32:03 PM »
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
What is an atheist Muslim?
Iqbal once said that he didn't care if God (or if you prefer "Allah") existed as long as Muhammad did.
Sounds like Thomas J. J. Altizer
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #968 on: May 09, 2014, 05:19:19 PM »
An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
What is an atheist Muslim?
Iqbal once said that he didn't care if God (or if you prefer "Allah") existed as long as Muhammad did.

Who's Iqbal?

An atheist Muslim once told me "what is true Islam?  It's what Muslims don't do.  Because whenever you point out something that Muslims are doing, they say "that's not true Islam."

 :laugh:
What is an atheist Muslim?
Iqbal once said that he didn't care if God (or if you prefer "Allah") existed as long as Muhammad did.
Sounds like Thomas J. J. Altizer

Who's Thomas JJ Altizer
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #969 on: May 09, 2014, 07:18:24 PM »
Honestly, IME, the only Muslims I've personally come into contact with that did the constant honorifics were semi-radicalized cradles/converts in a Middle Eastern Studies department a relative of mine was in at the time. That includes having received tours at two different mosques - one strictly Sunni, and the other Sunni/Shi'a.

Likewise. Almost all the hardcore converts I met, including myself at one time, drop "in shaa Allah, alhamdulillah, ma shaa Allah" and so forth into every part of conversation possible. In hindsight most who do this are trying to prove their Muslim-ness. Flame me now, say what you will, but I know this for a fact is true 99.99% of the time.

"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline RehamG

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #970 on: May 09, 2014, 07:24:41 PM »
Quote
Is that how you view western Christians who convert to Orthodoxy too? Sad.
Nope. Just you. I am a western Christian convert to Orthodoxy, and I also know a few dozen more personally. None of us look any way possible to prove our Ortho-cred by using Russian or Greek in an everyday conversation as you evidently do with Islam.

PP

In Islam, it's obligatory by the Sharia to say certain things in certain ways or it's nullified, illegitimate etc.
I know plenty of Muslims that follow Sharia that don't do this. Some of them are my students.

PP

Well, then they are not following the Sharia... They might follow certain parts of the Sharia, but not the whole of it.

This is correct.
All of the cradle Muslims at Mosque and the reverts say it all the time. There is no difference between the reverts and the cradles in this.

All the cradle Muslims AT YOUR mosque do. There is a world outside your mosque, one in which most Muslims do not say many of the Arabic honorifics often unless in an Arabic speaking country.....even then, it is only a formality of speech....why say no in Egypt when you can say in shaa Allah because it is more PC :laugh:
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #971 on: May 09, 2014, 07:32:30 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 07:32:48 PM by DeniseDenise »

Offline RehamG

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #972 on: May 09, 2014, 08:03:51 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'


In a sense I think most converts to any faith and somewhat trying to prove themselves at least for a time. In my mind I was trying to point out that its a thing many born Muslim Arabic speakers don't do in most English countries basically, let alone a non-Arab convert. I'm failing with my words today.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 08:04:23 PM by RehamG »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #973 on: May 09, 2014, 08:07:11 PM »
No...I got what you meant....but the argument still stands..


American converts could easily -not- use the word Theotokos, but rather 'Mother of God', Icon stand instead of iconostasis...etc



Just saying that we should not ascribe 'motive' to usage of religious terms in a foreign language by converts for whom that language is not their primary spoken language...because Orthodoxy is no different ;)

Offline Nephi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #974 on: May 09, 2014, 08:10:30 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'


Apart from Theotokos (which does sometimes pop up in Roman Catholic circles because it was affirmed at the universal Council of Ephesus), many other words and such could very well (and oft justifiably) be perceived and criticized as "convert lingo." Just like when you have English-speaking converts to Orthodox say things like:

"Easter's for non-Orthodox Western Christians, we celebrate Pascha."

"Please don't call me Elizabeth anymore - I go by Xanthippe now."

And no doubt we criticize them just the same as a non-Arabic-speaking convert to Islam constantly throwing out Arabic words.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 08:10:54 PM by Nephi »

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #975 on: May 09, 2014, 08:12:59 PM »


And no doubt we criticize them just the same as a non-Arabic-speaking convert to Islam constantly throwing out Arabic words.

ahh religion of mercy and love towards our neighbors.....if we can't even go easy on our Brothers in Christ.......

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #976 on: May 09, 2014, 08:34:24 PM »
why say no in Egypt when you can say in shaa Allah because it is more PC :laugh:

So true...every Egyptian kid (Muslim or Christian) hates that. It's filled with false hope.

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Good times :P
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 08:37:25 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #977 on: May 09, 2014, 08:57:41 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'


Apart from Theotokos (which does sometimes pop up in Roman Catholic circles because it was affirmed at the universal Council of Ephesus), many other words and such could very well (and oft justifiably) be perceived and criticized as "convert lingo." Just like when you have English-speaking converts to Orthodox say things like:

"Easter's for non-Orthodox Western Christians, we celebrate Pascha."

"Please don't call me Elizabeth anymore - I go by Xanthippe now."

And no doubt we criticize them just the same as a non-Arabic-speaking convert to Islam constantly throwing out Arabic words.
The non-Orthodox Western Christians should call it Pascha too.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #978 on: May 09, 2014, 09:57:58 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'


Apart from Theotokos (which does sometimes pop up in Roman Catholic circles because it was affirmed at the universal Council of Ephesus), many other words and such could very well (and oft justifiably) be perceived and criticized as "convert lingo." Just like when you have English-speaking converts to Orthodox say things like:

"Easter's for non-Orthodox Western Christians, we celebrate Pascha."

"Please don't call me Elizabeth anymore - I go by Xanthippe now."

And no doubt we criticize them just the same as a non-Arabic-speaking convert to Islam constantly throwing out Arabic words.
The non-Orthodox Western Christians should call it Pascha too.

Most do. Spanish speaking Christians call it Pascua. It's just an Anglicism.
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #979 on: May 09, 2014, 10:17:49 PM »
Not going to flame here....

BUT

I think the implication that one can ascribe an attribute of 'trying too hard' to  someone by how much they fling around the new 'lingo' of their religious choice...is a pretty slippery slope.

Converts to Orthodoxy are 'suddenly' (from those folks around them's perspective) talking 'thesis, Theotokos, iconostasis,kathisma' and many an additional term that can just as easily be perceived as 'trying to prove their Orthodox-ness'


Apart from Theotokos (which does sometimes pop up in Roman Catholic circles because it was affirmed at the universal Council of Ephesus), many other words and such could very well (and oft justifiably) be perceived and criticized as "convert lingo." Just like when you have English-speaking converts to Orthodox say things like:

"Easter's for non-Orthodox Western Christians, we celebrate Pascha."

"Please don't call me Elizabeth anymore - I go by Xanthippe now."

And no doubt we criticize them just the same as a non-Arabic-speaking convert to Islam constantly throwing out Arabic words.
The non-Orthodox Western Christians should call it Pascha too.

Most do. Spanish speaking Christians call it Pascua. It's just an Anglicism.
Not to mention "Paschaltide" etc.

So they have no excuse.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Trebor135

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #980 on: June 18, 2014, 07:40:21 PM »
It's pointless. People would rather instantly gratify their ego than see the importance of staying on topic for someone who really needs to have a proper quality thread that they can refer back to. It would only attract the same people back who are constantly in love with their own words. But thanks for trying so, Allah willing, I will answer your question if you're still about to read it even.

Aggravating, isn't it?

Quote
I know, from studying a little of Christianity before I reverted, that other Muslims believe that Christians worship three Gods, which I do try and explain but most don't get that.

Thank you for doing what you can to correct Muslims' misconceptions about Christianity.

Quote
With the greatest of respect though, there are so many versions of Christianity, that I'm not sure quite what you're referring to, as the people of the book are not the same now as the people of the book as mentioned in The Qur'an.

Well, what did the "People of the Book" believe back in Muhammad's day versus what Christians believe presently?

And there aren't "so many versions of Christianity"; Latins, Protestants, and Orthodox believe in the trinity and the deity of Christ despite their other differences. There are groups like the Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelfians, and Mormons who would probably want us to call them Christian, but if we care about precision, we can't do so. Would it be fair for me to say that Islam is divided among Sunni, Shi`a, `Alawi, Druze, Ahmadiya, and Bahá'í?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:43:17 PM by Trebor135 »

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #981 on: June 18, 2014, 08:46:15 PM »
It's pointless. People would rather instantly gratify their ego than see the importance of staying on topic for someone who really needs to have a proper quality thread that they can refer back to. It would only attract the same people back who are constantly in love with their own words. But thanks for trying so, Allah willing, I will answer your question if you're still about to read it even.

Aggravating, isn't it?

Quote
I know, from studying a little of Christianity before I reverted, that other Muslims believe that Christians worship three Gods, which I do try and explain but most don't get that.

Thank you for doing what you can to correct Muslims' misconceptions about Christianity.

Quote
With the greatest of respect though, there are so many versions of Christianity, that I'm not sure quite what you're referring to, as the people of the book are not the same now as the people of the book as mentioned in The Qur'an.

Well, what did the "People of the Book" believe back in Muhammad's day versus what Christians believe presently?

And there aren't "so many versions of Christianity"; Latins, Protestants, and Orthodox believe in the trinity and the deity of Christ despite their other differences. There are groups like the Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelfians, and Mormons who would probably want us to call them Christian, but if we care about precision, we can't do so. Would it be fair for me to say that Islam is divided among Sunni, Shi`a, `Alawi, Druze, Ahmadiya, and Bahá'í?

During Muhammad's time the people of the book believed the same things as they do now. Though, some polytheists also worshiped Christ and Mary as gods (the Ka'aba had 360-ish gods before Muhammad destroyed them), and Muhammad got confused about this and sometimes thought that those polytheists represented Orthodox Christian beliefs.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 08:50:07 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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I am scaling back posting because the crack in my computer screen makes it harder and harder to type.