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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 14911 times) Average Rating: 5
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ialmisry
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« Reply #900 on: May 03, 2014, 08:02:54 PM »

and so many versions of the Quran, 7, 10, 14 or more.

I didn't know that. 
for starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at
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« Reply #901 on: May 04, 2014, 03:14:00 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap
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« Reply #902 on: May 04, 2014, 03:20:32 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

You can edit that one.
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« Reply #903 on: May 04, 2014, 03:27:51 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

You can edit that one.

I know.

I was being sarcastic
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« Reply #904 on: May 04, 2014, 05:51:23 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

You can edit that one.

I know.

I was being sarcastic

And I completely misread you. My apologies.

Carry on.
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« Reply #905 on: May 04, 2014, 08:40:41 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

Even pseudo-scholars like Shabir Ally admit this about the Qur'an.
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« Reply #906 on: May 04, 2014, 10:38:11 AM »



Wait, Salafism is heterodox? What have I missed? I thought it is sort of far right version of Sunni Islam.
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« Reply #907 on: May 04, 2014, 11:10:06 AM »

And I can do this regarding Christianity and its denomination and para-church weird sects and all manner of other deviations which could be included.

Is that helpful? No
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« Reply #908 on: May 04, 2014, 11:15:14 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

Even pseudo-scholars like Shabir Ally admit this about the Qur'an.
How divergent are these versions?
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« Reply #909 on: May 04, 2014, 12:08:58 PM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

Even pseudo-scholars like Shabir Ally admit this about the Qur'an.
How divergent are these versions?

Depends on what your sources are. Shia claim a version exist with an extra chapter called Surah al-Wilaya. I found a video of Ayatollah Sayyed Kamal Haydari reciting this Surah, but I cannot find it now. I think I posted it else where on this forum, maybe on this topic. Hadith sources say that there once existed versions with Surah al-Ahzab having as many verses as Surat al-Baqarah. And that verses that dealt with breastfeeding and stoning were removed. The only ones I've been able to absolutely verify however, were only a few word differences.

Salafi Sheikh Adnan al-Aroor in a discussion with a Shi'ite Hujjat al-Islam mentions both word variants from a verse in the Quran, as an example.
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« Reply #910 on: May 04, 2014, 12:16:21 PM »

Poppy,

What exactly is meant by saying that some Christians are/were 'people of the book'? Does this mean that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all shared a basis in the text of the Old Testament (albeit with perhaps different versions)? Or is this meant to imply something deeper and more fundamental about how Christians go about understanding and living out their religion?
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« Reply #911 on: May 05, 2014, 10:19:32 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....
handy.  The Enclopedia of Islam isn't, but it will give you the exact same information.
crap
most da'wah is.
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« Reply #912 on: May 05, 2014, 10:36:38 AM »


Aah....Wikipedia.

So, academically acceptable, so, uneditable, so....crap

Even pseudo-scholars like Shabir Ally admit this about the Qur'an.
How divergent are these versions?
about the same as the variants of NT manuscripts, or a little more.

The bigger problem is the text that have been found, e.g. in the Great Mosque of Sana'a fragments, diverge more, and the evidence of texts even more divergent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Sana%27a#Discoveries
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/fatiha.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/thq.htm
http://www.islamicmanuscripts.info/reference/books/Jeffery-1937-Materials/Jeffery-1937-Materials-000-061.pdf
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« Reply #913 on: May 05, 2014, 10:38:34 AM »

And I can do this regarding Christianity and its denomination and para-church weird sects and all manner of other deviations which could be included.

Is that helpful? No
We're not the ones cherry picking the evidence, so bring it on.
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« Reply #914 on: May 05, 2014, 12:00:20 PM »

Poppy,

What exactly is meant by saying that some Christians are/were 'people of the book'? Does this mean that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all shared a basis in the text of the Old Testament (albeit with perhaps different versions)? Or is this meant to imply something deeper and more fundamental about how Christians go about understanding and living out their religion?

How can she know this when she follows a man who mistakenly taught that Yeshua's mother was the daughter of Amram and sister of Aaron?  Grin
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« Reply #915 on: May 05, 2014, 01:19:04 PM »

I've heard of an earlier Christian author writing about the contemporary collection of and destruction of Quran's (a century or so after Uthman). Anyone have any idea as to who that was?

I also remember that certain companions of the prophet were supposed to have been allowed to keep their own versions privately after Uthman's "canonizaton," which was touched on some in my Islamic religion/history courses (professor being an atheist Syrian).
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« Reply #916 on: May 05, 2014, 01:51:59 PM »

Poppy,

What exactly is meant by saying that some Christians are/were 'people of the book'? Does this mean that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all shared a basis in the text of the Old Testament (albeit with perhaps different versions)? Or is this meant to imply something deeper and more fundamental about how Christians go about understanding and living out their religion?

How can she know this when she follows a man who mistakenly taught that Yeshua's mother was the daughter of Amram and sister of Aaron?  Grin

Actually, she can, since Asteriktos asked her a question concerning islamic theology.
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« Reply #917 on: May 05, 2014, 05:15:56 PM »

Poppy,

What exactly is meant by saying that some Christians are/were 'people of the book'? Does this mean that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all shared a basis in the text of the Old Testament (albeit with perhaps different versions)? Or is this meant to imply something deeper and more fundamental about how Christians go about understanding and living out their religion?

Not some basis in the text, but basis in the truth.
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« Reply #918 on: May 05, 2014, 05:31:09 PM »

Just out of curiosity, if Muslims believe that Jesus is merely a prophet, then how come they believe that He was born of a virgin? AFAIK, none of the other prophets (Moses, Muhammed, etc.) are said to have been born from virgins in Islam. It seems a bit bizarre. And also, is there a hierarchy among the prophets? Are some prophets "higher" than the others? And if so, would Christ's virgin birth be related to that at all in anyway?
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« Reply #919 on: May 05, 2014, 05:33:50 PM »

I've heard of an earlier Christian author writing about the contemporary collection of and destruction of Quran's (a century or so after Uthman). Anyone have any idea as to who that was?

I also remember that certain companions of the prophet were supposed to have been allowed to keep their own versions privately after Uthman's "canonizaton," which was touched on some in my Islamic religion/history courses (professor being an atheist Syrian).
you are probably thinking of 'Abd Allah b. Ishaq al-Kindi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_of_al-Kindy_(book)
Mingana speaks about him in that context:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Mingana/transmission2.htm
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« Reply #920 on: May 06, 2014, 12:09:27 AM »

Just out of curiosity, if Muslims believe that Jesus is merely a prophet, then how come they believe that He was born of a virgin? AFAIK, none of the other prophets (Moses, Muhammed, etc.) are said to have been born from virgins in Islam. It seems a bit bizarre. And also, is there a hierarchy among the prophets? Are some prophets "higher" than the others? And if so, would Christ's virgin birth be related to that at all in anyway?

Your first question in part has been discussed earlier in this thread.  I think the answer was simply "Allah makes miracles happen".  Poppy can correct me if I'm wrong on that one or if I'm misrepresenting it in any way.

Of course, we believe the Virgin Birth does point to Jesus as more than a prophet.  The fact that Islam retains this is something that deserves a lot of attention and interest.
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« Reply #921 on: May 06, 2014, 05:05:10 AM »

Just out of curiosity, if Muslims believe that Jesus is merely a prophet, then how come they believe that He was born of a virgin? AFAIK, none of the other prophets (Moses, Muhammed, etc.) are said to have been born from virgins in Islam. It seems a bit bizarre. And also, is there a hierarchy among the prophets? Are some prophets "higher" than the others? And if so, would Christ's virgin birth be related to that at all in anyway?

There is no "merely" about Isa (prayers of peace to him) but given your beliefs, I can understand why you use that word.

Allah (AWJ) made Jesus (blessings + peace of Allah to him) with no seed of a father and also made the very first man from no mother or father so, Allah ta'ala can do as he wishes. The reason is simply as a sign to mankind.

The only difference with the prophets (AAWA)  is that Allah (AzWJ) has sent now the final prophet (SAwS) for the whole of mankind.

When Isa (AS) returns, he will defeat the enemy.


I agree with Minas, it is interesting about the birth of Jesus (AS) in Islam. And I will take this into consideration.
The difficult thing is, in Islam, my (and any one individual's) opinions and thoughts are irrelevant. There is truth in the words of Allah (AWJ) and you seek truth from scholars. So, when you have concerns on an issue, the last thing you do is sit and ponder for yourself and come up with your own version of the truth.

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?
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« Reply #922 on: May 06, 2014, 06:01:21 AM »


Allah (AWJ) made Jesus (blessings + peace of Allah to him) with no seed of a father and also made the very first man from no mother or father so, Allah ta'ala can do as he wishes.

This is a false analogy. Adam was directly created unlike Yeshua. Besides, the author of the Qur'an did not consider Adam's creation a miracle wrought for humanity.

The reason is simply as a sign to mankind.

a sign of what? How could Mary have proven her miraculous conception? In the Qur'an Issa never talks of his miraculous birth either.

The only difference with the prophets (AAWA)  is that Allah (AzWJ) has sent now the final prophet (SAwS) for the whole of mankind.

Yet Issa and his mother were a sign for the whole mankind.  Roll Eyes

When Isa (AS) returns, he will defeat the enemy.

This is not a Quranic teaching.

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« Reply #923 on: May 06, 2014, 09:59:19 AM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?

It is evident for those who practice the life of "godliness" through many spiritual practices that they live the life of the Holy Spirit.  Think of it this way.  We all start off like infants in the Christian faith.  The Holy Spirit is our "godfather" so to speak, teaching us and caring for us along the way and working through us.  As infants we seek nourishment.  As children, we learn a bit but still seek nourishment, and undergo some "homework" (prayers, minor fasting exercises, reading the Scriptures).  As adults, you comprehend the faith much better, able to take responsibility for the exercises given. We increase in ascetism, and we become emboldened in the care for others in the community and in relationships with our neighbors.  Needless to say this doesn't  happen as much or as readily seen by the outsider as they used to, but when you read about the Christians of the first 3-4 centuries, you hear of an unusual practice of life that made them stand out from Gentiles and Jews.  They were ready to die for their faith like a lamb to the slaughter, silent, in prayer, subdued to the will of God. They didn't die with swords in their hands in the field of battle and call them "martyrs." They died evangelizing with more powerful weapon, the faith!

People who have this self-sacrificial personality and those who live the highest form of asceticism and prayer life (knowing how to pray unceasingly as the Scriptures teaches, not five times a day or seven times a day) are those who we entrust good authority to give us the teachings of the Holy Spirit.  Today this personality exists at best with the monastic system we have, but following immediately after Christ, it would seem most Christians lived this tough ascetic lifestyle akin to monastic practices today.  We consider many of us here who share with you theological answers to give you what these great spiritual giants have taught us, and not something from our own minds.  But we as Christians are encouraged that since we too have the Holy Spirit in us, can so attain this enlightenment through our ascetic practices.  Many of us however, though we may be adults physically are still infants in our spirituality.

I think it's important you see the parallel between Adam and Jesus, who we call the "New Adam".  If Jesus was born in a different manner than anyone else, it is so that we obtain a new birth and new creation. Of Jesus was a mere man, it's "business as usual."  But if the parallel is that He reflects new birth and "new mankind", then He's more than a man.  In Him lies the fullness of newness, and the only One who can make us "new" is God.
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« Reply #924 on: May 06, 2014, 10:09:12 AM »

When Isa (AS) returns, he will defeat the enemy.
I have returned.
I agree with Minas, it is interesting about the birth of Jesus (AS) in Islam. And I will take this into consideration.
The difficult thing is, in Islam, my (and any one individual's) opinions and thoughts are irrelevant. There is truth in the words of Allah (AWJ) and you seek truth from scholars.
That's true:
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St. John of Damascus’s Critique of Islam
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
There is nothing St. John can't answer.

So, when you have concerns on an issue, the last thing you do is sit and ponder for yourself and come up with your own version of the truth.
The 'Ulama' do little else.
How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?
ask your Prophet that question.
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« Reply #925 on: May 06, 2014, 10:25:35 AM »


Allah (AWJ) made Jesus (blessings + peace of Allah to him) with no seed of a father and also made the very first man from no mother or father so, Allah ta'ala can do as he wishes.

This is a false analogy. Adam was directly created unlike Yeshua. Besides, the author of the Qur'an did not consider Adam's creation a miracle wrought for humanity.

The reason is simply as a sign to mankind.

a sign of what? How could Mary have proven her miraculous conception? In the Qur'an Issa never talks of his miraculous birth either.

The only difference with the prophets (AAWA)  is that Allah (AzWJ) has sent now the final prophet (SAwS) for the whole of mankind.

Yet Issa and his mother were a sign for the whole mankind.  Roll Eyes

When Isa (AS) returns, he will defeat the enemy.

This is not a Quranic teaching.



I didn't post Adam as an example of a miracle. Only a example of various creative beings in various ways.

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link. If not, please delete it and sorry.
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« Reply #926 on: May 06, 2014, 10:27:51 AM »

Just out of curiosity, if Muslims believe that Jesus is merely a prophet, then how come they believe that He was born of a virgin? AFAIK, none of the other prophets (Moses, Muhammed, etc.) are said to have been born from virgins in Islam. It seems a bit bizarre. And also, is there a hierarchy among the prophets? Are some prophets "higher" than the others? And if so, would Christ's virgin birth be related to that at all in anyway?

Yes. There are Hadith that talk about the hierarchy of the Prophets in the heavens. Muhammad is at the top, he is considered Khatam al-Anbiya or ''Seal of the Prophets''. Since there are seven heavens in Islam, different prophets dwell in different heavens.

Here's a link to a Hadith that mentions this.
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« Reply #927 on: May 06, 2014, 10:30:12 AM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?
ask your Prophet that question.

Why are you so nasty? It was a genuine question. If you don't like this thread then free to jog on but May Allah (AWJ) forgive you for throwing sarcastic hostility in the way of someone inquiring.
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« Reply #928 on: May 06, 2014, 10:38:05 AM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?

It is evident for those who practice the life of "godliness" through many spiritual practices that they live the life of the Holy Spirit.  Think of it this way.  We all start off like infants in the Christian faith.  The Holy Spirit is our "godfather" so to speak, teaching us and caring for us along the way and working through us.  As infants we seek nourishment.  As children, we learn a bit but still seek nourishment, and undergo some "homework" (prayers, minor fasting exercises, reading the Scriptures).  As adults, you comprehend the faith much better, able to take responsibility for the exercises given. We increase in ascetism, and we become emboldened in the care for others in the community and in relationships with our neighbors.  Needless to say this doesn't  happen as much or as readily seen by the outsider as they used to, but when you read about the Christians of the first 3-4 centuries, you hear of an unusual practice of life that made them stand out from Gentiles and Jews.  They were ready to die for their faith like a lamb to the slaughter, silent, in prayer, subdued to the will of God. They didn't die with swords in their hands in the field of battle and call them "martyrs." They died evangelizing with more powerful weapon, the faith!

People who have this self-sacrificial personality and those who live the highest form of asceticism and prayer life (knowing how to pray unceasingly as the Scriptures teaches, not five times a day or seven times a day) are those who we entrust good authority to give us the teachings of the Holy Spirit.  Today this personality exists at best with the monastic system we have, but following immediately after Christ, it would seem most Christians lived this tough ascetic lifestyle akin to monastic practices today.  We consider many of us here who share with you theological answers to give you what these great spiritual giants have taught us, and not something from our own minds.  But we as Christians are encouraged that since we too have the Holy Spirit in us, can so attain this enlightenment through our ascetic practices.  Many of us however, though we may be adults physically are still infants in our spirituality.

I think it's important you see the parallel between Adam and Jesus, who we call the "New Adam".  If Jesus was born in a different manner than anyone else, it is so that we obtain a new birth and new creation. Of Jesus was a mere man, it's "business as usual."  But if the parallel is that He reflects new birth and "new mankind", then He's more than a man.  In Him lies the fullness of newness, and the only One who can make us "new" is God.

I've copied all your words to think about and reread.

But this emboldened I will comment on directly. When Jesus (AS) was in the garden and he spoke to the sky and said something like 'not my will but yours be done' ....we have arguments that this is a proof that Jesus (AS) is not at all Allah (SWT) but I remember reading you believe that Jesus (AS) was talking (as the 'New Adam') on behalf of the original Adam. Meaning that the original Adam did his own will.

Is this true? That you believe this way? Or have I total misunderstood it?
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« Reply #929 on: May 06, 2014, 11:28:54 AM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?

It is evident for those who practice the life of "godliness" through many spiritual practices that they live the life of the Holy Spirit.  Think of it this way.  We all start off like infants in the Christian faith.  The Holy Spirit is our "godfather" so to speak, teaching us and caring for us along the way and working through us.  As infants we seek nourishment.  As children, we learn a bit but still seek nourishment, and undergo some "homework" (prayers, minor fasting exercises, reading the Scriptures).  As adults, you comprehend the faith much better, able to take responsibility for the exercises given. We increase in ascetism, and we become emboldened in the care for others in the community and in relationships with our neighbors.  Needless to say this doesn't  happen as much or as readily seen by the outsider as they used to, but when you read about the Christians of the first 3-4 centuries, you hear of an unusual practice of life that made them stand out from Gentiles and Jews.  They were ready to die for their faith like a lamb to the slaughter, silent, in prayer, subdued to the will of God. They didn't die with swords in their hands in the field of battle and call them "martyrs." They died evangelizing with more powerful weapon, the faith!

People who have this self-sacrificial personality and those who live the highest form of asceticism and prayer life (knowing how to pray unceasingly as the Scriptures teaches, not five times a day or seven times a day) are those who we entrust good authority to give us the teachings of the Holy Spirit.  Today this personality exists at best with the monastic system we have, but following immediately after Christ, it would seem most Christians lived this tough ascetic lifestyle akin to monastic practices today.  We consider many of us here who share with you theological answers to give you what these great spiritual giants have taught us, and not something from our own minds.  But we as Christians are encouraged that since we too have the Holy Spirit in us, can so attain this enlightenment through our ascetic practices.  Many of us however, though we may be adults physically are still infants in our spirituality.

I think it's important you see the parallel between Adam and Jesus, who we call the "New Adam".  If Jesus was born in a different manner than anyone else, it is so that we obtain a new birth and new creation. Of Jesus was a mere man, it's "business as usual."  But if the parallel is that He reflects new birth and "new mankind", then He's more than a man.  In Him lies the fullness of newness, and the only One who can make us "new" is God.

I've copied all your words to think about and reread.

But this emboldened I will comment on directly. When Jesus (AS) was in the garden and he spoke to the sky and said something like 'not my will but yours be done' ....we have arguments that this is a proof that Jesus (AS) is not at all Allah (SWT) but I remember reading you believe that Jesus (AS) was talking (as the 'New Adam') on behalf of the original Adam. Meaning that the original Adam did his own will.

Is this true? That you believe this way? Or have I total misunderstood it?
You misunderstood it (at least in part).
The New Adam had a human will since the Incarnation.  The Son still shared the the Divine Will, as He remained God, but the human will He assumed in the Incarnation remained human, and hence separate and subject to the Divine Will.  Indeed, only because Christ was both God and man, did the assumed will do the incarnated will.
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« Reply #930 on: May 06, 2014, 11:30:00 AM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?
ask your Prophet that question.

Why are you so nasty? It was a genuine question. If you don't like this thread then free to jog on but May Allah (AWJ) forgive you for throwing sarcastic hostility in the way of someone inquiring.
Your question makes a claim. I merely called on you to substantiate it with some consistency.
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« Reply #931 on: May 06, 2014, 11:31:25 AM »


Allah (AWJ) made Jesus (blessings + peace of Allah to him) with no seed of a father and also made the very first man from no mother or father so, Allah ta'ala can do as he wishes.

This is a false analogy. Adam was directly created unlike Yeshua. Besides, the author of the Qur'an did not consider Adam's creation a miracle wrought for humanity.

The reason is simply as a sign to mankind.

a sign of what? How could Mary have proven her miraculous conception? In the Qur'an Issa never talks of his miraculous birth either.

The only difference with the prophets (AAWA)  is that Allah (AzWJ) has sent now the final prophet (SAwS) for the whole of mankind.

Yet Issa and his mother were a sign for the whole mankind.  Roll Eyes

When Isa (AS) returns, he will defeat the enemy.

This is not a Quranic teaching.



I didn't post Adam as an example of a miracle. Only a example of various creative beings in various ways.

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link. If not, please delete it and sorry.
You won't find a single verse in the Qur'an on the Dajjal.
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« Reply #932 on: May 06, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »

How does the Holy Spirit work in the way truth is arrived at in Christianity? He leads people into all truth as I seem to remember but then isn't that truth then subject to the person delivering it?

It is evident for those who practice the life of "godliness" through many spiritual practices that they live the life of the Holy Spirit.  Think of it this way.  We all start off like infants in the Christian faith.  The Holy Spirit is our "godfather" so to speak, teaching us and caring for us along the way and working through us.  As infants we seek nourishment.  As children, we learn a bit but still seek nourishment, and undergo some "homework" (prayers, minor fasting exercises, reading the Scriptures).  As adults, you comprehend the faith much better, able to take responsibility for the exercises given. We increase in ascetism, and we become emboldened in the care for others in the community and in relationships with our neighbors.  Needless to say this doesn't  happen as much or as readily seen by the outsider as they used to, but when you read about the Christians of the first 3-4 centuries, you hear of an unusual practice of life that made them stand out from Gentiles and Jews.  They were ready to die for their faith like a lamb to the slaughter, silent, in prayer, subdued to the will of God. They didn't die with swords in their hands in the field of battle and call them "martyrs." They died evangelizing with more powerful weapon, the faith!

People who have this self-sacrificial personality and those who live the highest form of asceticism and prayer life (knowing how to pray unceasingly as the Scriptures teaches, not five times a day or seven times a day) are those who we entrust good authority to give us the teachings of the Holy Spirit.  Today this personality exists at best with the monastic system we have, but following immediately after Christ, it would seem most Christians lived this tough ascetic lifestyle akin to monastic practices today.  We consider many of us here who share with you theological answers to give you what these great spiritual giants have taught us, and not something from our own minds.  But we as Christians are encouraged that since we too have the Holy Spirit in us, can so attain this enlightenment through our ascetic practices.  Many of us however, though we may be adults physically are still infants in our spirituality.

I think it's important you see the parallel between Adam and Jesus, who we call the "New Adam".  If Jesus was born in a different manner than anyone else, it is so that we obtain a new birth and new creation. Of Jesus was a mere man, it's "business as usual."  But if the parallel is that He reflects new birth and "new mankind", then He's more than a man.  In Him lies the fullness of newness, and the only One who can make us "new" is God.

I've copied all your words to think about and reread.

But this emboldened I will comment on directly. When Jesus (AS) was in the garden and he spoke to the sky and said something like 'not my will but yours be done' ....we have arguments that this is a proof that Jesus (AS) is not at all Allah (SWT) but I remember reading you believe that Jesus (AS) was talking (as the 'New Adam') on behalf of the original Adam. Meaning that the original Adam did his own will.

Is this true? That you believe this way? Or have I total misunderstood it?

In the gospel of John, he talks about Christ as the Logos:  "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God...
...
...
...And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us."

The same chapter where Jesus prays "not my will, but your will" is a profound statement by Christ, who being the Logos became flesh, not merely bones and muscles, but mind, soul, spirit as well, everything that we as humans are except sin.  And only God does no sin.  Therefore, to say that Jesus is without sin is to call Him God.

In Luke chapter 22, this is where you find the prayer Christ made to the Father.  But in the same chapter, we should not ignore the fact that Luke records Jesus giving His disciples the institution of His Body and Blood.  Therefore, Jesus pretty much says His humanity is given for us, not for Himself.  For Him, He will not fulfill the Passover until the second coming.  Until then, He gave them His body and blood. 

Later on, Christ promises to bestow upon His disciples eternal kingdoms, just as He has one from the Father.  Only God has the power and authority to bestow kingdom, thus, Jesus is making Himself on par with the Father's authority.  He could have said "my Father will make kingdoms for you and will make you judge the 12 tribes of Israel."  No, He said "I" will make kingdoms for you.  That is the key issue here.

When Jesus was captured by Jewish officers after Judas's betrayal, Christ stopped His disciples from fighting with swords, and Jesus healed the ear of one of the officers arresting him that was cut off by the sword.  One can say, logically, Jesus could have defended himself like a warrior as previous prophets had.  But now Jesus fulfills the commandment to love even our enemies, and shows us the example of healing the ear.  Since Jesus did not pick up a sword, but taught us the value of trying to love our persecutors, this type of clemency can only exist with God, to the point where anyone afterwords who claims to preach God's message and fights as a warrior is not to be trusted as a messenger of God.

And finally at the end of chapter 22, Christ confesses to the Sanhedrin that He is the Son of God.

Therefore, you need to give the Scriptures the courtesy of not taking things out of context.  Yes, He prayed to the Father "not my will", but He did so with human tendencies, on behalf of all humanity.  God blesses our natural human fear of death in Himself, when He took flesh.  The Old Adam would have ran away from persecution, would have contradicted the will of God, would have maybe picked up a sword to fight and shed blood, but the New Adam, faced the natural human fear all mankind share, conquered it for us, condemned any of His disciples who picked up swords, and gave His life willingly and without struggle as a sacrifice for all mankind.
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« Reply #933 on: May 06, 2014, 12:43:55 PM »

rofl at the Kant tag

The tag is not irrelevant: there was a section in this thread where he was discussed.  (It is not good to keep discussing him now, because it would only throw the discussion off topic, but tags are there to help anyone to find info on OC.net via cross-referencing.)

The same goes for the other tags.  Someone keeps on erasing tags on this thread, and I would ask them to stop so that people may be able to find information on various threads on topics that interest them on this site.  Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #934 on: May 06, 2014, 01:59:01 PM »


I've copied all your words to think about and reread.

But this emboldened I will comment on directly. When Jesus (AS) was in the garden and he spoke to the sky and said something like 'not my will but yours be done' ....we have arguments that this is a proof that Jesus (AS) is not at all Allah (SWT) but I remember reading you believe that Jesus (AS) was talking (as the 'New Adam') on behalf of the original Adam. Meaning that the original Adam did his own will.

Is this true? That you believe this way? Or have I total misunderstood it?

In the gospel of John, he talks about Christ as the Logos:  "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God...
...
...
...And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us."

The same chapter where Jesus prays "not my will, but your will" is a profound statement by Christ, who being the Logos became flesh, not merely bones and muscles, but mind, soul, spirit as well, everything that we as humans are except sin.  And only God does no sin.  Therefore, to say that Jesus is without sin is to call Him God.

In Luke chapter 22, this is where you find the prayer Christ made to the Father.  But in the same chapter, we should not ignore the fact that Luke records Jesus giving His disciples the institution of His Body and Blood.  Therefore, Jesus pretty much says His humanity is given for us, not for Himself.  For Him, He will not fulfill the Passover until the second coming.  Until then, He gave them His body and blood. 

Later on, Christ promises to bestow upon His disciples eternal kingdoms, just as He has one from the Father.  Only God has the power and authority to bestow kingdom, thus, Jesus is making Himself on par with the Father's authority.  He could have said "my Father will make kingdoms for you and will make you judge the 12 tribes of Israel."  No, He said "I" will make kingdoms for you.  That is the key issue here.

When Jesus was captured by Jewish officers after Judas's betrayal, Christ stopped His disciples from fighting with swords, and Jesus healed the ear of one of the officers arresting him that was cut off by the sword.  One can say, logically, Jesus could have defended himself like a warrior as previous prophets had.  But now Jesus fulfills the commandment to love even our enemies, and shows us the example of healing the ear.  Since Jesus did not pick up a sword, but taught us the value of trying to love our persecutors, this type of clemency can only exist with God, to the point where anyone afterwords who claims to preach God's message and fights as a warrior is not to be trusted as a messenger of God.

And finally at the end of chapter 22, Christ confesses to the Sanhedrin that He is the Son of God.

Therefore, you need to give the Scriptures the courtesy of not taking things out of context.  Yes, He prayed to the Father "not my will", but He did so with human tendencies, on behalf of all humanity.  God blesses our natural human fear of death in Himself, when He took flesh.  The Old Adam would have ran away from persecution, would have contradicted the will of God, would have maybe picked up a sword to fight and shed blood, but the New Adam, faced the natural human fear all mankind share, conquered it for us, condemned any of His disciples who picked up swords, and gave His life willingly and without struggle as a sacrifice for all mankind.

Ok thank you. (and I didn't mean to take out of context, sorry.)

That's enough information for now to think about.

jazakumullah minas and James. (may Allah ta'ala, give you recompense)
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« Reply #935 on: May 06, 2014, 04:57:16 PM »


I didn't post Adam as an example of a miracle. Only a example of various creative beings in various ways.

Then the question "of all humans, why was only Issa formed without a father?" remains unanswered. Adam was the progenitor of mankind unlike Issa. What are those various creative beings?

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.


You need not provide endless verses from the Qur'an. Citing one single verse to prove your argument would be enough.

Besides, the word Dajjal does not occur in the Qur'an either. The Islamic connection drawn between Dajjal and Issa is based on tradition rather than on the Qur'an.
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« Reply #936 on: May 07, 2014, 02:15:00 PM »

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.


You need not provide endless verses from the Qur'an. Citing one single verse to prove your argument would be enough.

Besides, the word Dajjal does not occur in the Qur'an either. The Islamic connection drawn between Dajjal and Issa is based on tradition rather than on the Qur'an.

If you are interested, watch the video of the scholar speaking about it. A scholar's words on your point are way better than my own.
I get the feeling though that you are not really interested in the answer.
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« Reply #937 on: May 07, 2014, 02:19:00 PM »

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.


You need not provide endless verses from the Qur'an. Citing one single verse to prove your argument would be enough.

Besides, the word Dajjal does not occur in the Qur'an either. The Islamic connection drawn between Dajjal and Issa is based on tradition rather than on the Qur'an.

If you are interested, watch the video of the scholar speaking about it. A scholar's words on your point are way better than my own.
I get the feeling though that you are not really interested in the answer.
If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?
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« Reply #938 on: May 07, 2014, 02:24:35 PM »

here is Dajjal in Qur'an by Mufti Menk. It was the best I can give you without finding endless verses from Qur'an, if you are interested in the information, it is best coming from a scholar.


You need not provide endless verses from the Qur'an. Citing one single verse to prove your argument would be enough.

Besides, the word Dajjal does not occur in the Qur'an either. The Islamic connection drawn between Dajjal and Issa is based on tradition rather than on the Qur'an.

If you are interested, watch the video of the scholar speaking about it. A scholar's words on your point are way better than my own.
I get the feeling though that you are not really interested in the answer.
If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?

In Sunni Islam, you don't. You have to be literate in Islam to know which ones are faithful to the religion. Normally, the Caliph was the supreme interpreter of the Qur'an and Islamic law. But the Caliphate was abolished by Ataturk. Now, you either make a guess, or you don't attach yourself to any specific scholar (kind of a anti-clericalism). The latter of which Salafis like al-Qaeda belong to.

Shi'ites though, have a certain limited number of Marja' which are the supreme interpretive authority.
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« Reply #939 on: May 07, 2014, 02:29:14 PM »



If you are interested, watch the video of the scholar speaking about it. A scholar's words on your point are way better than my own.
I get the feeling though that you are not really interested in the answer.

Why should I watch the video when I know that the word Dajjal does not occur in the Qur'an? To see how certain Muslim "scholars" are good at fabricating and teaching things that do not exist in the Qur'an?  Grin
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« Reply #940 on: May 07, 2014, 02:31:00 PM »


If I am wanting to learn more about Islam, how do I know which scholars to follow?  In Orthodox Christianity, we have the traditions of the Church that we follow, but I get the sense in Islam there is no such structure.  How do you know the scholar you are following is faithful to Mohammed's teachings and not just putting his own personal spin on it for either personal or ideological gains?

Simple: in Islam "scholars" who fabricate and spread lies to defend and promote Islam are considered good...
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« Reply #941 on: May 07, 2014, 02:37:06 PM »

OMGA not this again...
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« Reply #942 on: May 07, 2014, 02:38:51 PM »

Thank you all, but I am more interested in hearing a Muslim's answer to my question than a Christian's answer.
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« Reply #943 on: May 07, 2014, 02:39:22 PM »

Thank you all, but I am more interested in hearing a Muslim's answer to my question than a Christian's answer.

I am a former Muslim. Would that not count?  Cool
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« Reply #944 on: May 07, 2014, 02:42:45 PM »

Thank you all, but I am more interested in hearing a Muslim's answer to my question than a Christian's answer.

I am a former Muslim. Would that not count?  Cool
Call me paranoid, but I get the sense you have an axe to grind.  Wink
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