If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects.
I see no conflict. The onus is on you to prove conflict. People reap what they sow. If you have an inclination to have a relationship with God, and you don't act on that inclination, then you will suffer the consequences. It doesn't come from God. It comes from your own denial and suppression and fear and anger. The conflict again is in the person, not in God. And don't fool yourself by thinking you're "refuting" some illogical concept. I want you to ask YOURSELF a very honest question so that you can understand deep down in yourself whether you're wasting your time in this discussion or not:
Would it make a difference for you if God allowed people to sin or do good or to have a relationship with Him or not WITHOUT consequences? In other words, would you believe in THAT God? Honestly, forget about hell. Pretend that doesn't exist. Would you believe in God, or would you look for another excuse to reject Him? If you don't, then you're wasting your time asking such silly questions, and it comes to prove the conflict is in yourself.
If you do want to believe in that type of God, then I have to question if you even have any logic, because that means you are creating God in your own image, the very same accusation you give to believers in God. And then you will realize it's not logic that makes you disbelieve in God, it's emotional.
I was showing off the inconsistencies of Christian theology concerning the attributes of God in points 1-5.
I like all human beings am someone who has been threat with eternal hell. And for the record I was brought up Orthodox Christian.
LOL! You've been "threatened"? That's hilarious coming from an atheist, and illogical. There's no threat to hell if you disbelieve in it, isn't there?
The "threat" is no different than a threat of touching a hot stove will cause burns. Sure nature could have given us indestructible skins to temperature, but nature "threatened" us with getting burnt if something is too hot, or "freeze burn" if something is too cold.
No, you're not "threatened". It's just natural. And you learn to live with it, not in fear of hell or desire of heaven, but true mature faith does not care about heaven or hell, just as any idiot does not care about the stove or the Arctic cold. He learns to stay away from things too extreme to enjoy life, or at least know how to protect himself from those extremes
Metaphors should be chosen wisely and make sense. I have one question for you buddy. After the 'Last judgement' will we still have free-will? Do those in heaven still have free-will? Can one who is in heaven still sin? What will happen if he does?
I have one question for you "buddy"? How many questions is "one" question?
Remember what I told you about the afterlife? Let me jot your memory: "Neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart can contemplate" the afterlife. The answer is we don't know. Our lives here are nothing but a shadow of the life we will live beyond. But your question(s)
are not hard to fathom, when we know a few clues about who we are and who God is.If God loves us the way we were, God won't change us in the afterlife.
What we do gain though when we get to the afterlife is wisdom by experience
. In other words, we were at one point in our lives naive, and our "free will" really wasn't so "free" to begin with. In order to be really free, we have to have a full set of knowledge and wisdom. As we gain experience, we become "freer". Yes, our lives begin with choices, but the choices we make help us gain experience and wisdom, and in this, we grow and mature and become "freer". And this growth and maturity does not end, but continues in the afterlife
. We will not be static creatures standing and saying Alleluia forever. But we will continue to grow. If God loves the fact that we can grow and learn and created us that way, then He will love us by allowing us to continue that way in the afterlife.
Can someone sin from heaven? I can't answer that, and no one can. But many have thought that there's a less chance
we will, simply because we become stronger, and wiser, learning from our past mistakes, and share in the throne of God Himself as gods, and even share in the judgment throne itself.
Our whole life, remember I told you earlier, is centered to becoming like God in a relationship with Him, and that includes being "free" like Him. That only means that we're "more free" tomorrow than we were yesterday. Freedom is an infinite journey to make, not an instant concept to experience.
And ONLY GOD is truly free. We are made in the capacity to grow into that freedom by whatever little freedom we have now. That's the beauty of our creation. And in order for us to experience that change, we are given the possibility to make mistakes as well that we may have a better appreciation of our lives in this world as well as the world to come. We are made to evolve.
I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?
You said you used to be an "Orthodox Christian". But were you really? It only seems to me that you were IN the Orthodox Church, but you were NOT an Orthodox Christian. I don't know your history. But I know many people born into atheist families that have a long for this divine relationship and end up believing in God (many who are Orthodox as well). And there are many, like yourself, born of Orthodox parents, and leave the Church later on in life. Can you identify any time in your life that happened in the Church that might have turned out differently if the Church said something different or if you learned something in a different way? Usually those who leave the Church is because of something stupid the Church did, and not because of something "logical". The "logic" usually only comes after some emotional trauma or stagnancy.
And already you proved to me that emotional "trauma" by alluding to "being threatened" by hell in the Orthodox Church. Do you want to know what the height of spiritual maturity is? The height of spiritual maturity is that I am not afraid of hell, nor do I seek "prizes" in heaven, but I care nothing about "punishment" or "reward". I only care to have that lifelong eternal relationship with God. Hell and heaven are for children who have yet to have a spiritual maturity. People who haven't outgrown the fear of hell are like those 30-year-olds who still need a spanking for not cleaning their room.