OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 20, 2014, 08:21:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 15094 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,634


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #810 on: November 17, 2013, 05:45:22 PM »

One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?

The thing is, if you answer "yes," then here is my dilemma/question: who did Allah/Yahweh (whatever you like to call Him) love before He created the universe? In order to love, you have to have something to love. if God is eternal and has existed forever, then what did He love before He created the universe? If you answer that God didn't love anything before the Creation, then in a sense, it kind of makes your God appear "incomplete," for lack of a better term. And I think that this may be what Jason is always getting at when he talks about the Christian God vs. the Muslim God and "completeness." If on the other hand, you say that God did love something before Creation, then I think you would fall into dualism and blasphemy because you are assuming that there is something else other than God that is eternal and has existed forever, never being created. I think all "Abrahamic" faiths would agree that God created EVERYTHING. So to answer in this way would violate the God-created-everything doctrine.

So is God all-loving in Islam and Judaism? If not, then no offense, but imo He seems kinda incomplete. If yes, then it becomes a real question of WHO or WHAT did He love before Creation? Because everything other than God is the result of Creation, and therefore there was a time when it didn't exist. And if God existed during that time, then who or what did He love? And how could anything apart from Creation other than God have existed forever when we assert that God is the only monadic, forever-existing thing?

In theory, could this postulate ARGUABLY set the blueprint for a Trinitarian (or maybe dyadic) God who is multiple persons yet still one God? It would appear on the outset to solve the dilemma, because it answers how God could be all-loving  (you could say that the members of the Godhead loved each other forever, even before Creation), and it doesn't risk falling into blasphemy by asserting that something other than God existed forever, because you could say that the multiple members of the Godhead are still one God, therefore it's no blasphemy.

Just some thoughts I've had in my head.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #811 on: November 17, 2013, 05:45:28 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.

Poppy, I don't think the answer to this question will satisfy you, as it has never really satisfied any Muslim.  The assumption comes from a theology in your religion that claims that there has to come a prophet who is the seal of prophets after the Messiah.  In Christianity, the seal of prophets, kings, and priests was in the Messiah Himself.  The idea of a Messiah is so strong, even in Judaism, that He is considered to come at the end of the world in Jewish religion.  We too believe the Messiah will come at the end of the world, in a "second coming".  Furthermore, the question is also using writings that seem to reflect an attitude in Islam that what Jews and Christians have has been corrupted, and the "original" is missing.  Please correct me if I'm misconstruing that part of your religion.  So if you feel the need to speak of things in our Bible that pertain to something "you feel" pertains to your prophet, don't you think you have to establish a level of legitimacy of the whole text and the context of this before you can assume this talks about Mohamed?



I am not "any Muslim", I am me, but thank you for your politeness. If we all tried our best to be more transparent and our egos diminished, then maybe we can all see more truth in each other from God being seen instead of our egos, then His guidance might be made more apparent uh? That is the one thing I like about sufism. But only that one thing.

The embolderlined part: yea, you have a good point. It can't be that your text is so corrupt that it is not known which is ok and which is not, so do not read any (which is what I was advised) and then yet quote some to say that this part speaks of our Prophet (salalahu alehi wa asalam) here. That is funny now I think of it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 05:45:52 PM by Poppy » Logged
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #812 on: November 17, 2013, 05:57:04 PM »

One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?

The thing is, if you answer "yes," then here is my dilemma/question: who did Allah/Yahweh (whatever you like to call Him) love before He created the universe? In order to love, you have to have something to love. if God is eternal and has existed forever, then what did He love before He created the universe? If you answer that God didn't love anything before the Creation, then in a sense, it kind of makes your God appear "incomplete," for lack of a better term. And I think that this may be what Jason is always getting at when he talks about the Christian God vs. the Muslim God and "completeness." If on the other hand, you say that God did love something before Creation, then I think you would fall into dualism and blasphemy because you are assuming that there is something else other than God that is eternal and has existed forever, never being created. I think all "Abrahamic" faiths would agree that God created EVERYTHING. So to answer in this way would violate the God-created-everything doctrine.

So is God all-loving in Islam and Judaism? If not, then no offense, but imo He seems kinda incomplete. If yes, then it becomes a real question of WHO or WHAT did He love before Creation? Because everything other than God is the result of Creation, and therefore there was a time when it didn't exist. And if God existed during that time, then who or what did He love? And how could anything apart from Creation other than God have existed forever when we assert that God is the only monadic, forever-existing thing?

In theory, could this postulate ARGUABLY set the blueprint for a Trinitarian (or maybe dyadic) God who is multiple persons yet still one God? It would appear on the outset to solve the dilemma, because it answers how God could be all-loving  (you could say that the members of the Godhead loved each other forever, even before Creation), and it doesn't risk falling into blasphemy by asserting that something other than God existed forever, because you could say that the multiple members of the Godhead are still one God, therefore it's no blasphemy.

Just some thoughts I've had in my head.

I am guessing why you would think that, but so you can tell me why in your own words please?
Logged
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #813 on: November 17, 2013, 06:01:24 PM »


Isaiah 29:12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”


An attempt by Allah worshippers to twist our Scriptures! Let's see what Prophet Isaiah actually said in that section:

 
10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
    He has sealed your eyes, the prophets;
    he has covered your heads, the seers
.
11  For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
    And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him,
    "Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
12  Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say,
    "Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
13  The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth
    and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
    Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

These statements have nothing to do with the promise of an illiterate prophet. Adonai declared that both literate and illiterate people would fail to understand visions since they would be likened to a sealed scroll.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #814 on: November 17, 2013, 06:05:50 PM »


he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with Ten Thousand Saints : from his right hand went a fiery law for them. " (Deuteronomy 33:2
Biblical scholars concur that the desert of Paran/Faran was the home of the Ishmaelites.

Another attempt by Allah worshippers to twist our Scriptures! These baseless allegations have already been refuted:

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/dt33_2.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/deut33-2.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/holy_ones.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Meherally/tenthousands.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/holy_ones2.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi-mhd.htm
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,211



« Reply #815 on: November 17, 2013, 06:10:39 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 06:22:56 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone, believing it to be God." (Mahatma Gandhi)
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #816 on: November 17, 2013, 06:11:09 PM »


he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with Ten Thousand Saints : from his right hand went a fiery law for them. " (Deuteronomy 33:2
Biblical scholars concur that the desert of Paran/Faran was the home of the Ishmaelites.

Another attempt by Allah worshippers to twist our Scriptures! These baseless allegations have already been refuted:

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/dt33_2.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/deut33-2.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/holy_ones.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Meherally/tenthousands.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/holy_ones2.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi-mhd.htm

When you are done being rude and inciting rudeness back to you, if you wern't so ignorant, you would see that some of us are trying our best to learn from others who are not interested in winning points but more interested their own original thoughts and words, rather than tedious links to websites.

tt;dr
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,634


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #817 on: November 17, 2013, 06:15:28 PM »

One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?

The thing is, if you answer "yes," then here is my dilemma/question: who did Allah/Yahweh (whatever you like to call Him) love before He created the universe? In order to love, you have to have something to love. if God is eternal and has existed forever, then what did He love before He created the universe? If you answer that God didn't love anything before the Creation, then in a sense, it kind of makes your God appear "incomplete," for lack of a better term. And I think that this may be what Jason is always getting at when he talks about the Christian God vs. the Muslim God and "completeness." If on the other hand, you say that God did love something before Creation, then I think you would fall into dualism and blasphemy because you are assuming that there is something else other than God that is eternal and has existed forever, never being created. I think all "Abrahamic" faiths would agree that God created EVERYTHING. So to answer in this way would violate the God-created-everything doctrine.

So is God all-loving in Islam and Judaism? If not, then no offense, but imo He seems kinda incomplete. If yes, then it becomes a real question of WHO or WHAT did He love before Creation? Because everything other than God is the result of Creation, and therefore there was a time when it didn't exist. And if God existed during that time, then who or what did He love? And how could anything apart from Creation other than God have existed forever when we assert that God is the only monadic, forever-existing thing?

In theory, could this postulate ARGUABLY set the blueprint for a Trinitarian (or maybe dyadic) God who is multiple persons yet still one God? It would appear on the outset to solve the dilemma, because it answers how God could be all-loving  (you could say that the members of the Godhead loved each other forever, even before Creation), and it doesn't risk falling into blasphemy by asserting that something other than God existed forever, because you could say that the multiple members of the Godhead are still one God, therefore it's no blasphemy.

Just some thoughts I've had in my head.

I am guessing why you would think that, but so you can tell me why in your own words please?

It's quite simple tbh; how do you love if there is no one or thing for you to love? That's like saying you are going to fix something even though nothing exists for you to fix. Humans are able to love because we have other humans, we have God, we have animals, we have material things that we can all love. But if you took that all away, we'd be incapable of love. Similarly, this is the dilemma I see with a non-Trinitarian (or non-dyadic) monadic "all-loving" God, and what I'm asking you to solve.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 06:19:20 PM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #818 on: November 17, 2013, 06:17:45 PM »

If you would of read my first post in this thread you would of seen that I converted to Islam from Judaism so you on about my screen name shows you didn't read the thread or are having a misunderstanding. I know your in yellow and be a bit for you post again so take the time to read the thread and also post to me from the Bible,Torah or Quran where it says Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree THANKS

Isn't it weird indeed that you, suppposedly a former Jew, are completely ignorant of what the Rabbinical literature says on this issue?

Read what the Book of Wisdom (a deuterocanonical book in our canon) teaches in regard to Adam's fall and death:

God, to be sure, framed man for an immortal destiny, the created image of his own endless being; but, since the devil’s envy brought death into the world, they make him their model that take him for their master. (2:23-25)

Quote
The Jewish view concerning Adam's sin is best expressed by Ammi (Shab. 55a, based upon Ezek. xviii. 20): "No man dies without a sin of his own. Accordingly, all the pious, being permitted to behold the Shekinah (glory of God) before their death, reproach Adam (as they pass him by at the gate) for having brought death upon them; to which he replies: 'I died with but one sin, but you have committed many: on account of these you have died; not on my account'" (Tan., Ḥuḳḳat, 16).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/758-adam
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #819 on: November 17, 2013, 06:21:09 PM »


When you are done being rude and inciting rudeness back to you, if you wern't so ignorant, you would see that some of us are trying our best to learn from others who are not interested in winning points but more interested their own original thoughts and words, rather than tedious links to websites.

tt;dr

I know how Allah worshippers think and act. I am really honoured when Yeshua's enemies call me ignorant and rude. Resorting to straw-man arguments proves that you are a perfect Allah worshipper now. Rejoice!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 06:24:52 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,649



« Reply #820 on: November 17, 2013, 06:28:09 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.

Poppy, I don't think the answer to this question will satisfy you, as it has never really satisfied any Muslim.  The assumption comes from a theology in your religion that claims that there has to come a prophet who is the seal of prophets after the Messiah.  In Christianity, the seal of prophets, kings, and priests was in the Messiah Himself.  The idea of a Messiah is so strong, even in Judaism, that He is considered to come at the end of the world in Jewish religion.  We too believe the Messiah will come at the end of the world, in a "second coming".  Furthermore, the question is also using writings that seem to reflect an attitude in Islam that what Jews and Christians have has been corrupted, and the "original" is missing.  Please correct me if I'm misconstruing that part of your religion.  So if you feel the need to speak of things in our Bible that pertain to something "you feel" pertains to your prophet, don't you think you have to establish a level of legitimacy of the whole text and the context of this before you can assume this talks about Mohamed?

The answer is this.  The Pharisees are instigators.  Therefore, they became repetitive in their question.  They did not know who "the prophet" mentioned in Deut 18:18 would be, whether it be the Messiah or some other prophet.  They also assumed that this prophet would be from the line of Israel, not from Ishmael.  Inasmuch as one can make an argument of "Ishmaelites" as "brothers", Israelites, which are by default children of Isaac, only considered themselves as holy people, and if anyone should come and be called a "prophet", it would not be outside the confines of the children of Jacob/Israel.  Read the whole chapter 18 of Deuteronomy.  Look at the very beginning:

Quote
“The priests, the Levites—all the tribe of Levi—shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and His portion. 2 Therefore they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance, as He said to them.

Here, the "no part nor inheritance among their brethren" is defined by the fact that the "brethren" are "with Israel".  If we know our context clues well, there's no way "Ishmaelites" IN THIS CHAPTER ALONE has been included as "brethren".  Biology does not matter here.  "Among brethren" could be an Chinese or an Indian prophet for all we care, since we're all children of Adam anyway.  But in Deuteronomy Chapter 18, the "brethren" is not even Isaacites, but Israelites, since it even excludes Israel's twin brother.
The Muslims have another problem:

They say, like us, that Jesus is the Messiah the Jews were/are waiting for.  The Jews are still waiting.

They say that Muhammad is the prophet that the Christians were waiting for.  However, we aren't waiting for any Prophet, nor have we ever.  Just waiting for the return of the Lord.  If it were as Muslim with the Jewish accent says, we should be waiting for some Prophet, as should the Jews, as they still are waiting for the Messiah.

As for Jewish Voice's babbling, I'd have to take the time, to be complete, to shift through his echoing of this old-and long ago discredited-argument.  In the meantime, notice on no. 2 that Christ Himself identifies John the Baptist as Elijah, while not denying that John was not Elijah, showing that the Pharisees were not quite correct on what they were expecting.  After all, they missed identifying their Messiah after all.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #821 on: November 17, 2013, 06:35:13 PM »


As for Jewish Voice's babbling, I'd have to take the time, to be complete, to shift through his echoing of this old-and long ago discredited-argument.  In the meantime, notice on no. 2 that Christ Himself identifies John the Baptist as Elijah, while not denying that John was not Elijah, showing that the Pharisees were not quite correct on what they were expecting.  After all, they missed identifying their Messiah after all.

Those Levites mistakenly interpreted the promise of Eliyahu's return in a literal sense. Still, the very person they posed the question "Are you the prophet?" was an Israelite, not an Arab. This shows that the Jews expected the prophet promised in Deuteronomy 18:15 to be an Israelite.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Poppy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Muslim
Jurisdiction: Hanbali fiqh
Posts: 1,030

onlytwatsusetwitter
WWW
« Reply #822 on: November 17, 2013, 06:37:30 PM »

One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?

The thing is, if you answer "yes," then here is my dilemma/question: who did Allah/Yahweh (whatever you like to call Him) love before He created the universe? In order to love, you have to have something to love. if God is eternal and has existed forever, then what did He love before He created the universe? If you answer that God didn't love anything before the Creation, then in a sense, it kind of makes your God appear "incomplete," for lack of a better term. And I think that this may be what Jason is always getting at when he talks about the Christian God vs. the Muslim God and "completeness." If on the other hand, you say that God did love something before Creation, then I think you would fall into dualism and blasphemy because you are assuming that there is something else other than God that is eternal and has existed forever, never being created. I think all "Abrahamic" faiths would agree that God created EVERYTHING. So to answer in this way would violate the God-created-everything doctrine.

So is God all-loving in Islam and Judaism? If not, then no offense, but imo He seems kinda incomplete. If yes, then it becomes a real question of WHO or WHAT did He love before Creation? Because everything other than God is the result of Creation, and therefore there was a time when it didn't exist. And if God existed during that time, then who or what did He love? And how could anything apart from Creation other than God have existed forever when we assert that God is the only monadic, forever-existing thing?

In theory, could this postulate ARGUABLY set the blueprint for a Trinitarian (or maybe dyadic) God who is multiple persons yet still one God? It would appear on the outset to solve the dilemma, because it answers how God could be all-loving  (you could say that the members of the Godhead loved each other forever, even before Creation), and it doesn't risk falling into blasphemy by asserting that something other than God existed forever, because you could say that the multiple members of the Godhead are still one God, therefore it's no blasphemy.

Just some thoughts I've had in my head.

I am guessing why you would think that, but so you can tell me why in your own words please?

It's quite simple tbh; how do you love if there is no one or thing for you to love? That's like saying you are going to fix something even though nothing exists for you to fix. Humans are able to love because we have other humans, we have God, we have animals, we have material things that we can all love. But if you took that all away, we'd be incapable of love. Similarly, this is the dilemma I see with a non-Trinitarian (or non-dyadic) monadic "all-loving" God, and what I'm asking you to solve.

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God? If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

For me there is no dilemma to solve.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #823 on: November 17, 2013, 06:53:55 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.

Poppy, I don't think the answer to this question will satisfy you, as it has never really satisfied any Muslim.  The assumption comes from a theology in your religion that claims that there has to come a prophet who is the seal of prophets after the Messiah.  In Christianity, the seal of prophets, kings, and priests was in the Messiah Himself.  The idea of a Messiah is so strong, even in Judaism, that He is considered to come at the end of the world in Jewish religion.  We too believe the Messiah will come at the end of the world, in a "second coming".  Furthermore, the question is also using writings that seem to reflect an attitude in Islam that what Jews and Christians have has been corrupted, and the "original" is missing.  Please correct me if I'm misconstruing that part of your religion.  So if you feel the need to speak of things in our Bible that pertain to something "you feel" pertains to your prophet, don't you think you have to establish a level of legitimacy of the whole text and the context of this before you can assume this talks about Mohamed?



I am not "any Muslim", I am me, but thank you for your politeness.

I'm sorry Poppy. I didn't mean to be rude or to overgeneralize.  I have many Muslim friends, so I'm just relating to how I remember plenty of times this verse has been presented to me by own friends.  The discussion always ends in a shrug and then, "hey are you gonna finish those fries".  Tongue
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #824 on: November 17, 2013, 07:42:11 PM »

Dear Garuda,

Quote
If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects.

I see no conflict.  The onus is on you to prove conflict.  People reap what they sow.  If you have an inclination to have a relationship with God, and you don't act on that inclination, then you will suffer the consequences.  It doesn't come from God.  It comes from your own denial and suppression and fear and anger.  The conflict again is in the person, not in God.  And don't fool yourself by thinking you're "refuting" some illogical concept.  I want you to ask YOURSELF a very honest question so that you can understand deep down in yourself whether you're wasting your time in this discussion or not:

Would it make a difference for you if God allowed people to sin or do good or to have a relationship with Him or not WITHOUT consequences?  In other words, would you believe in THAT God?  Honestly, forget about hell.  Pretend that doesn't exist.  Would you believe in God, or would you look for another excuse to reject Him?  If you don't, then you're wasting your time asking such silly questions, and it comes to prove the conflict is in yourself. 

If you do want to believe in that type of God, then I have to question if you even have any logic, because that means you are creating God in your own image, the very same accusation you give to believers in God.  And then you will realize it's not logic that makes you disbelieve in God, it's emotional.

Quote
I was showing off the inconsistencies of Christian theology concerning the attributes of God in points 1-5.

I like all human beings am someone who has been threat with eternal hell. And for the record I was brought up Orthodox Christian.

LOL!  You've been "threatened"?  That's hilarious coming from an atheist, and illogical.  There's no threat to hell if you disbelieve in it, isn't there?

The "threat" is no different than a threat of touching a hot stove will cause burns.  Sure nature could have given us indestructible skins to temperature, but nature "threatened" us with getting burnt if something is too hot, or "freeze burn" if something is too cold.

No, you're not "threatened".  It's just natural.  And you learn to live with it, not in fear of hell or desire of heaven, but true mature faith does not care about heaven or hell, just as any idiot does not care about the stove or the Arctic cold.  He learns to stay away from things too extreme to enjoy life, or at least know how to protect himself from those extremes

Quote
Metaphors should be chosen wisely and make sense. I have one question for you buddy. After the 'Last judgement' will we still have free-will? Do those in heaven still have free-will? Can one who is in heaven still sin? What will happen if he does?

I have one question for you "buddy"?  How many questions is "one" question?

Remember what I told you about the afterlife?  Let me jot your memory:  "Neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart can contemplate" the afterlife.  The answer is we don't know.  Our lives here are nothing but a shadow of the life we will live beyond.  But your question(s) are not hard to fathom, when we know a few clues about who we are and who God is.

If God loves us the way we were, God won't change us in the afterlife.  What we do gain though when we get to the afterlife is wisdom by experience.  In other words, we were at one point in our lives naive, and our "free will" really wasn't so "free" to begin with.  In order to be really free, we have to have a full set of knowledge and wisdom.  As we gain experience, we become "freer".  Yes, our lives begin with choices, but the choices we make help us gain experience and wisdom, and in this, we grow and mature and become "freer". 

And this growth and maturity does not end, but continues in the afterlife.  We will not be static creatures standing and saying Alleluia forever.  But we will continue to grow.  If God loves the fact that we can grow and learn and created us that way, then He will love us by allowing us to continue that way in the afterlife. 

Can someone sin from heaven?  I can't answer that, and no one can.  But many have thought that there's a less chance we will, simply because we become stronger, and wiser, learning from our past mistakes, and share in the throne of God Himself as gods, and even share in the judgment throne itself. 

Our whole life, remember I told you earlier, is centered to becoming like God in a relationship with Him, and that includes being "free" like Him.  That only means that we're "more free" tomorrow than we were yesterday.  Freedom is an infinite journey to make, not an instant concept to experience.  And ONLY GOD is truly free.  We are made in the capacity to grow into that freedom by whatever little freedom we have now.  That's the beauty of our creation.  And in order for us to experience that change, we are given the possibility to make mistakes as well that we may have a better appreciation of our lives in this world as well as the world to come.  We are made to evolve.

Quote
I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?

You said you used to be an "Orthodox Christian".  But were you really?  It only seems to me that you were IN the Orthodox Church, but you were NOT an Orthodox Christian.  I don't know your history.  But I know many people born into atheist families that have a long for this divine relationship and end up believing in God (many who are Orthodox as well).  And there are many, like yourself, born of Orthodox parents, and leave the Church later on in life.  Can you identify any time in your life that happened in the Church that might have turned out differently if the Church said something different or if you learned something in a different way?  Usually those who leave the Church is because of something stupid the Church did, and not because of something "logical".  The "logic" usually only comes after some emotional trauma or stagnancy.

And already you proved to me that emotional "trauma" by alluding to "being threatened" by hell in the Orthodox Church.  Do you want to know what the height of spiritual maturity is?  The height of spiritual maturity is that I am not afraid of hell, nor do I seek "prizes" in heaven, but I care nothing about "punishment" or "reward".  I only care to have that lifelong eternal relationship with God.  Hell and heaven are for children who have yet to have a spiritual maturity.  People who haven't outgrown the fear of hell are like those 30-year-olds who still need a spanking for not cleaning their room.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 07:49:39 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #825 on: November 17, 2013, 07:44:09 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,211



« Reply #826 on: November 17, 2013, 07:46:38 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh

Of course. But that doesn't mean God's love toward men is conditional. It only shows that God hates the activities of mankind, not mankind themselves.
Logged

"Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone, believing it to be God." (Mahatma Gandhi)
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,634


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #827 on: November 17, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #828 on: November 17, 2013, 07:54:08 PM »

POTM nominee.  Well-written, minasoliman.
Dear Garuda,

Quote
If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects.

I see no conflict.  The onus is on you to prove conflict.  People reap what they sow.  If you have an inclination to have a relationship with God, and you don't act on that inclination, then you will suffer the consequences.  It doesn't come from God.  It comes from your own denial and suppression and fear and anger.  The conflict again is in the person, not in God.  And don't fool yourself by thinking you're "refuting" some illogical concept.  I want you to ask YOURSELF a very honest question so that you can understand deep down in yourself whether you're wasting your time in this discussion or not:

Would it make a difference for you if God allowed people to sin or do good or to have a relationship with Him or not WITHOUT consequences?  In other words, would you believe in THAT God?  Honestly, forget about hell.  Pretend that doesn't exist.  Would you believe in God, or would you look for another excuse to reject Him?  If you don't, then you're wasting your time asking such silly questions, and it comes to prove the conflict is in yourself. 

If you do want to believe in that type of God, then I have to question if you even have any logic, because that means you are creating God in your own image, the very same accusation you give to believers in God.  And then you will realize it's not logic that makes you disbelieve in God, it's emotional.

Quote
I was showing off the inconsistencies of Christian theology concerning the attributes of God in points 1-5.

I like all human beings am someone who has been threat with eternal hell. And for the record I was brought up Orthodox Christian.

LOL!  You've been "threatened"?  That's hilarious coming from an atheist, and illogical.  There's no threat to hell if you disbelieve in it, isn't there?

The "threat" is no different than a threat of touching a hot stove will cause burns.  Sure nature could have given us indestructible skins to temperature, but nature "threatened" us with getting burnt if something is too hot, or "freeze burn" if something is too cold.

No, you're not "threatened".  It's just natural.  And you learn to live with it, not in fear of hell or desire of heaven, but true mature faith does not care about heaven or hell, just as any idiot does not care about the stove or the Arctic cold.  He learns to stay away from things too extreme to enjoy life, or at least know how to protect himself from those extremes

Quote
Metaphors should be chosen wisely and make sense. I have one question for you buddy. After the 'Last judgement' will we still have free-will? Do those in heaven still have free-will? Can one who is in heaven still sin? What will happen if he does?

I have one question for you "buddy"?  How many questions is "one" question?

Remember what I told you about the afterlife?  Let me jot your memory:  "Neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart can contemplate" the afterlife.  The answer is we don't know.  Our lives here are nothing but a shadow of the life we will live beyond.  But your question(s) are not hard to fathom, when we know a few clues about who we are and who God is.

If God loves us the way we were, God won't change us in the afterlife.  What we do gain though when we get to the afterlife is wisdom by experience.  In other words, we were at one point in our lives naive, and our "free will" really wasn't so "free" to begin with.  In order to be really free, we have to have a full set of knowledge and wisdom.  As we gain experience, we become "freer".  Yes, our lives begin with choices, but the choices we make help us gain experience and wisdom, and in this, we grow and mature and become "freer". 

And this growth and maturity does not end, but continues in the afterlife.  We will not be static creatures standing and saying Alleluia forever.  But we will continue to grow.  If God loves the fact that we can grow and learn and created us that way, then He will love us by allowing us to continue that way in the afterlife. 

Can someone sin from heaven?  I can't answer that, and no one can.  But many have thought that there's a less chance we will, simply because we become stronger, and wiser, learning from our past mistakes, and share in the throne of God Himself as gods, and even share in the judgment throne itself. 

Our whole life, remember I told you earlier, is centered to becoming like God in a relationship with Him, and that includes being "free" like Him.  That only means that we're "more free" tomorrow than we were yesterday.  Freedom is an infinite journey to make, not an instant concept to experience.  And ONLY GOD is truly free.  We are made in the capacity to grow into that freedom by whatever little freedom we have now.  That's the beauty of our creation.  And in order for us to experience that change, we are given the possibility to make mistakes as well that we may have a better appreciation of our lives in this world as well as the world to come.  We are made to evolve.

Quote
I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?

You said you used to be an "Orthodox Christian".  But were you really?  It only seems to me that you were IN the Orthodox Church, but you were NOT an Orthodox Christian.  I don't know your history.  But I know many people born into atheist families that have a long for this divine relationship and end up believing in God (many who are Orthodox as well).  And there are many, like yourself, born of Orthodox parents, and leave the Church later on in life.  Can you identify any time in your life that happened in the Church that might have turned out differently if the Church said something different or if you learned something in a different way?  Usually those who leave the Church is because of something stupid the Church did, and not because of something "logical".  The "logic" usually only comes after some emotional trauma or stagnancy.

And already you proved to me that emotional "trauma" by alluding to "being threatened" by hell in the Orthodox Church.  Do you want to know what the height of spiritual maturity is?  The height of spiritual maturity is that I am not afraid of hell, nor do I seek "prizes" in heaven, but I care nothing about "punishment" or "reward".  I only care to have that lifelong eternal relationship with God.  Hell and heaven are for children who have yet to have a spiritual maturity.  People who haven't outgrown the fear of hell are like those 30-year-olds who still need a spanking for not cleaning their room.
Logged

jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #829 on: November 17, 2013, 07:59:09 PM »

If you would of read my first post in this thread you would of seen that I converted to Islam from Judaism so you on about my screen name shows you didn't read the thread or are having a misunderstanding. I know your in yellow and be a bit for you post again so take the time to read the thread and also post to me from the Bible,Torah or Quran where it says Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree THANKS

Isn't it weird indeed that you, suppposedly a former Jew, are completely ignorant of what the Rabbinical literature says on this issue?

Read what the Book of Wisdom (a deuterocanonical book in our canon) teaches in regard to Adam's fall and death:

God, to be sure, framed man for an immortal destiny, the created image of his own endless being; but, since the devil’s envy brought death into the world, they make him their model that take him for their master. (2:23-25)

Quote
The Jewish view concerning Adam's sin is best expressed by Ammi (Shab. 55a, based upon Ezek. xviii. 20): "No man dies without a sin of his own. Accordingly, all the pious, being permitted to behold the Shekinah (glory of God) before their death, reproach Adam (as they pass him by at the gate) for having brought death upon them; to which he replies: 'I died with but one sin, but you have committed many: on account of these you have died; not on my account'" (Tan., Ḥuḳḳat, 16).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/758-adam

Do you think if I had agreed with everything that Rabbinical literature said that I would of left Judaism? Me leaving my faith should tell you right off that I didn't agree with everything Rabbi's say.  Once again Jews don't have a Devil to have him have envy to cause death. Ha Shem does all the good and bad just so you know.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #830 on: November 17, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh

Of course. But that doesn't mean God's love toward men is conditional. It only shows that God hates the activities of mankind, not mankind themselves.

Are you saying God does not love sinners according to the Quran and the Bible?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Again, there's a difference between consequences and "not loving".  God always loves all, even those who sin.

Now I bet what your next question will be.  Wink (unless you know the answer)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:01:38 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #831 on: November 17, 2013, 08:03:24 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh

Of course. But that doesn't mean God's love toward men is conditional. It only shows that God hates the activities of mankind, not mankind themselves.
nope Hate is Hate
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #832 on: November 17, 2013, 08:03:57 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Lol!  The Trinity is not an easy concept.  I personally try my best to concentrate on Christ and talk little about the Trinity.  The Trinity is something that people with faith are able to grow into, not understand about.  It requires a relationship with God to know God.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #833 on: November 17, 2013, 08:07:39 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh

Of course. But that doesn't mean God's love toward men is conditional. It only shows that God hates the activities of mankind, not mankind themselves.

Are you saying God does not love sinners according to the Quran and the Bible?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Again, there's a difference between consequences and "not loving".  God always loves all, even those who sin.

Now I bet what your next question will be.  Wink (unless you know the answer)
Allah(swt) loves everyone I was just making a point
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,634


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #834 on: November 17, 2013, 08:13:22 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Lol!  The Trinity is not an easy concept.  I personally try my best to concentrate on Christ and talk little about the Trinity.  The Trinity is something that people with faith are able to grow into, not understand about.  It requires a relationship with God to know God.

Mina,

I disagree with you here. The Trinity isn't something to understand "about" God or to grow into--that type of thinking is what leads to many heretical groups abandoning the Trinity because they view it as a liability to God and thus dismiss it. Rather, the Trinity is the only way we can properly understand God & make sense out of this whole God/Christ/Incarnation thing.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,698


Never cease to intercede for us, your children.


« Reply #835 on: November 17, 2013, 08:18:31 PM »

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Hands down my favorite thing you've ever posted.  Smiley I've teased you lately so I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that I think that whole post was well done.
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,211



« Reply #836 on: November 17, 2013, 08:22:03 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Arabs are not descendents from Ishmael; Al-Tabari lied to you. I don't know what you are asking. If Muhammad were a prophet, he would have been an Israelite as per Deuteronomy, also he wouldn't have completely contradicted the Holy Scriptures from before. The Qur'an says:

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ ۚ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِن كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ
"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto."

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
"And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (al-Maidah 5:44)

While this alone doesn't confirm the veracity of the Torah, others verses of the Qur'an clearly do.

It says about the Torah: مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ "Verifying that which is between their hands."

Even in the Hadith Muhammad had the Torah brought to him to judge a case of Adultery.

"A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess." (Bukhari 6819)

Quote
One thought I've been having lately about the Triune, incarnate God of Christianity and the non-incarnate, non-Triune God of Islam and Judaism is about love. Talking to Jason about all this immanent/existence-Trinity/Incarnation philosophical stuff has really sparked me to ponder upon the concept of God much more than I previously had.

So that brings up one question and sort of a dilemma here that has perplexed me: in Islam and Judaism, what is the relationship between God and love? For example, in Christianity we say that God IS love and is all-loving etc. Would Islam/Judaism agree with this or would they say something different? Is Allah/Yahweh all-loving?
In Islam, God's love is conditional. He loves believers and jihadis, he hates nonbelievers and the unrighteous sinners.

Surah al-Saff 61:4 "Allah loves those who fight in His cause"

Surah al-Imran 3:32 "Allah does not love the unbelievers."

Surah 2:172 "Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner."

Surah al-Fathi 48:29 "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves."
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

I guess it's in your Bible too  laugh

Of course. But that doesn't mean God's love toward men is conditional. It only shows that God hates the activities of mankind, not mankind themselves.

Are you saying God does not love sinners according to the Quran and the Bible?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Again, there's a difference between consequences and "not loving".  God always loves all, even those who sin.

Now I bet what your next question will be.  Wink (unless you know the answer)
Allah(swt) loves everyone I was just making a point

That's just not true. The god of Islam hates. The God of the Bible's hate is not of people, but of people's actions. I bolded those verses to indicate this. The god of Islam predestines people to do things, and he hates them doing the things he predestined them to do. In other words, the god of Islam hates them for no reason. The God of Israel hates people's actions, not people themselves.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:28:33 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone, believing it to be God." (Mahatma Gandhi)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #837 on: November 17, 2013, 08:25:52 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Lol!  The Trinity is not an easy concept.  I personally try my best to concentrate on Christ and talk little about the Trinity.  The Trinity is something that people with faith are able to grow into, not understand about.  It requires a relationship with God to know God.

Mina,

I disagree with you here. The Trinity isn't something to understand "about" God or to grow into--that type of thinking is what leads to many heretical groups abandoning the Trinity because they view it as a liability to God and thus dismiss it. Rather, the Trinity is the only way we can properly understand God & make sense out of this whole God/Christ/Incarnation thing.

You turned God into a philosophical construct, and not into a means of developing your own relationship.  If knowledge about God would suffice or knowledge about "how" God is love would suffice, there would be no need to evangelize and serve the world.  Faith is not a science of proving what love means in God or in a Trinitarian framework, but faith comes from a relationship of how you experienced that love.  A life of prayer with and intimate devotion to Christ would make us understand much more deeply the Trinity.

See how St. Paul describes the Trinity:

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(Galatians 6)

That's a testimony to experiencing the Trinity.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:28:22 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #838 on: November 17, 2013, 08:35:32 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Lol!  The Trinity is not an easy concept.  I personally try my best to concentrate on Christ and talk little about the Trinity.  The Trinity is something that people with faith are able to grow into, not understand about.  It requires a relationship with God to know God.

Mina,

I disagree with you here. The Trinity isn't something to understand "about" God or to grow into--that type of thinking is what leads to many heretical groups abandoning the Trinity because they view it as a liability to God and thus dismiss it. Rather, the Trinity is the only way we can properly understand God & make sense out of this whole God/Christ/Incarnation thing.

You turned God into a philosophical construct, and not into a means of developing your own relationship.  If knowledge about God would suffice or knowledge about "how" God is love would suffice, there would be no need to evangelize and serve the world.  Faith is not a science of proving what love means in God or in a Trinitarian framework, but faith comes from a relationship of how you experienced that love.  A life of prayer with and intimate devotion to Christ would make us understand much more deeply the Trinity.
That's the thing I feel close to Allah (swt) with out a middle man. Every time I pray I just plug into a direct line with the one God who made me gave me life and feeds me and gives me everything that I have why would I give this love and worship to anything or anyone else. With out Allah(swt) I'm nothing I cease to be everything else cease's to be
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #839 on: November 17, 2013, 08:41:10 PM »

Maybe, in our limited state of humanity, we do need an object to focus our act of love towards. Should we transfer that onto God?

Yes; it's the only way we can understand God. I don't buy into the "other way/it's totally incomprehensible" thing. The only way we'd be able to understand and explain God is through what we observe in this life. And while it may not be 100% accurate, I think it is safe to assume that truths about God are at least in the same ballpark as truths we recognize in this life. Therefore, I think that my question stands, and I would ask you how you would transfer this onto God.

Quote
If you believe God to be all consuming and complete, then if He is love then maybe He would not need any such other thing.

Then that wouldn't be love at all because that makes no sense. You can't ascribe a quality to God and then change the definition of that quality based on an argument-from-ignorance. Nonsense is always nonsense, even if you insert the word "God" before it. I would say that God is all-consuming and complete (especially in love) precisely because I view the Trinitarian logic of one-yet-multiple as being the only logical way to reconcile and answer these questions, which you haven't answered yet.

Quote
For me there is no dilemma to solve.

Well to me there is, and if you want people to follow your religion, you should try to solve it for them.

Lol!  The Trinity is not an easy concept.  I personally try my best to concentrate on Christ and talk little about the Trinity.  The Trinity is something that people with faith are able to grow into, not understand about.  It requires a relationship with God to know God.

Mina,

I disagree with you here. The Trinity isn't something to understand "about" God or to grow into--that type of thinking is what leads to many heretical groups abandoning the Trinity because they view it as a liability to God and thus dismiss it. Rather, the Trinity is the only way we can properly understand God & make sense out of this whole God/Christ/Incarnation thing.

You turned God into a philosophical construct, and not into a means of developing your own relationship.  If knowledge about God would suffice or knowledge about "how" God is love would suffice, there would be no need to evangelize and serve the world.  Faith is not a science of proving what love means in God or in a Trinitarian framework, but faith comes from a relationship of how you experienced that love.  A life of prayer with and intimate devotion to Christ would make us understand much more deeply the Trinity.
That's the thing I feel close to Allah (swt) with out a middle man. Every time I pray I just plug into a direct line with the one God who made me gave me life and feeds me and gives me everything that I have why would I give this love and worship to anything or anyone else. With out Allah(swt) I'm nothing I cease to be everything else cease's to be

Thank you for making my point even clearer to James.  The Trinity continues to be misunderstood precisely with statements like what you made.  There is no "middle man".  That's the mystery of the Trinity.  Christ is no "middle man".  He is FULLY GOD, as St. Paul says about Christ, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

In Islam, can man partake of the divine nature?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:43:28 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 486



« Reply #840 on: November 17, 2013, 09:25:51 PM »

You know that answer Allah(swt) can not be eaten as you say and do
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #841 on: November 17, 2013, 09:51:59 PM »

You know that answer Allah(swt) can not be eaten as you say and do

This only comes to show that you don't know much about our faith.  Moreover you gave me an answer to the wrong question.  Do you only think things in such concrete ways, and not allow your mind into higher spiritual levels?  Tell me, do you take the Quran literally when they tell you some of the things you will have in heaven?

Keep in mind, I'm not assuming anything from your beliefs.  I took your word for it when you said Allah loves all.  There's no need for me to belabor the point on telling you what you believe.  That's why I asked you a specific question.  I have an idea you in what you believe, but I want to make sure I'm right.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 09:54:52 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Garuda
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99



« Reply #842 on: November 18, 2013, 04:34:54 AM »


I was referring to God as being confused/conflicted in will, according to this theology that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you can be more explicit?

 "If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects."
From my small understanding of Christianity, you're imposing your own emotional interpretation onto facts, even after you been told the facts isn't like how you perceive them. That means you're total stuck if you can't see outside of your own experience. Give up, go fishing or something or whatever you like to do for fun and then allow Allah to guide you to the straight path when your brain isn't engaged. You might have more benefit from that happening.

You been told already that in Christianity, God isn't punishing people, you have to take responsibility for your choices in life.
The consequences of me acting in a wrong, un-Islamic, way to another human is that consequences will be a deficit to me. Either in some of my rewards going to that person and that unforgiven action being outstanding on that day when I am judged.

Quote
I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?

Are they rejecting God or are they rejecting their knowledge and experience of organised religion? There is a difference to that. How can a person reject their sustainer of life, the One who provides the breath in their body and the systems in place on earth by which they live. Even the worst dog would offer some kind of gratitude or recognition of what you did, if you built them a house to live in and gave them a million quid.  And that stuff means nothing, it's just a vehicle in life. How much more when people realise about their All Source and Resource here and for eternity.

If God isn't punishing people then who is? Why are there bad/hurting consequences in certain behaviours?? Why doesn't God let humans be how they want to be without this negative/bad consequences?
Logged
Garuda
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99



« Reply #843 on: November 18, 2013, 04:34:54 AM »

What proof do you have that the Christian God does not hate certain people? Than why do certain people suffer and feel empty? Why do some suffer so much into committing suicide?
Logged
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #844 on: November 18, 2013, 06:01:25 AM »

Do you think if I had agreed with everything that Rabbinical literature said that I would of left Judaism? Me leaving my faith should tell you right off that I didn't agree with everything Rabbi's say.  Once again Jews don't have a Devil to have him have envy to cause death. Ha Shem does all the good and bad just so you know.

You are back to logical fallacies. Disagreeing with what the Rabbis teach is not the same as being ignorant of what the Rabbis teach. Besides, the fact that you disagreed and supposedly left Judaism does not make Judaism devoid of Rabbinical literature. I also do not agree with what the author of the Qur'an taught, but I still know what he taught and take it into account while discussing and criticizing Islam. It is absurd to deny what you do not know.  Wink
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #845 on: November 18, 2013, 06:04:23 AM »

That's the thing I feel close to Allah (swt) with out a middle man. Every time I pray I just plug into a direct line with the one God who made me gave me life and feeds me and gives me everything that I have why would I give this love and worship to anything or anyone else. With out Allah(swt) I'm nothing I cease to be everything else cease's to be

Naughty Jewish voice, you are being dishonest again. Does not Islam teach that the so-called final revelation was given through a man? That you have to believe in a man to be saved? Or do you consider Muhammad a god?  Roll Eyes
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #846 on: November 18, 2013, 08:22:43 AM »

That's the thing I feel close to Allah (swt) with out a middle man. Every time I pray I just plug into a direct line with the one God who made me gave me life and feeds me and gives me everything that I have why would I give this love and worship to anything or anyone else. With out Allah(swt) I'm nothing I cease to be everything else cease's to be

Naughty Jewish voice, you are being dishonest again. Does not Islam teach that the so-called final revelation was given through a man? That you have to believe in a man to be saved? Or do you consider Muhammad a god?  Roll Eyes

What does the shahada say?  There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God.  This is the confession, the creed, of Islam.  Muhammad is not considered a god, but it is absolutely necessary to confess this to be a Muslim.
Logged

minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #847 on: November 18, 2013, 03:58:53 PM »

What proof do you have that the Christian God does not hate certain people?

Christ is the proof

Quote
Than why do certain people suffer and feel empty? Why do some suffer so much into committing suicide?

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

We don't know why there is suffering.  But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.  "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 04:01:54 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,649



« Reply #848 on: November 18, 2013, 04:04:58 PM »

If you would of read my first post in this thread you would of seen that I converted to Islam from Judaism so you on about my screen name shows you didn't read the thread or are having a misunderstanding. I know your in yellow and be a bit for you post again so take the time to read the thread and also post to me from the Bible,Torah or Quran where it says Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree THANKS

Isn't it weird indeed that you, suppposedly a former Jew, are completely ignorant of what the Rabbinical literature says on this issue?

Read what the Book of Wisdom (a deuterocanonical book in our canon) teaches in regard to Adam's fall and death:

God, to be sure, framed man for an immortal destiny, the created image of his own endless being; but, since the devil’s envy brought death into the world, they make him their model that take him for their master. (2:23-25)

Quote
The Jewish view concerning Adam's sin is best expressed by Ammi (Shab. 55a, based upon Ezek. xviii. 20): "No man dies without a sin of his own. Accordingly, all the pious, being permitted to behold the Shekinah (glory of God) before their death, reproach Adam (as they pass him by at the gate) for having brought death upon them; to which he replies: 'I died with but one sin, but you have committed many: on account of these you have died; not on my account'" (Tan., Ḥuḳḳat, 16).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/758-adam

Do you think if I had agreed with everything that Rabbinical literature said that I would of left Judaism? Me leaving my faith should tell you right off that I didn't agree with everything Rabbi's say.
He didn't say that agreed or even disagreed with what Rabbinical literature says.  He pointed out your complete ignorance of it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Garuda
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99



« Reply #849 on: November 19, 2013, 12:49:41 PM »

What proof do you have that the Christian God does not hate certain people?

Christ is the proof

Quote
Than why do certain people suffer and feel empty? Why do some suffer so much into committing suicide?

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

We don't know why there is suffering.  But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.  "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

Why do certain people feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

According to the Christian saying, those who reject Christ will still burn in hell(forever?).

Can God suffer? Taking in consideration that He is considered perfect?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #850 on: November 19, 2013, 01:37:38 PM »

Why do certain people feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

We don't know why there is suffering.But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.    "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

Quote
Can God suffer? Taking in consideration that He is considered perfect?

What does it mean for God to be perfect?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Perfection is defined by love.  God is perfect because of His unconditional love for all mankind.  God is in His very nature and persona Love.  God is perfect because God is Love (1 John 4:8 ).  And God became man and suffered because He is Love!  He shows us the perfection of His love in bodily and tangible form.  He forgave His crucifiers while on the Cross because He loves them.  St. Paul was a terrorist who lead the deaths of many Christians, and God's love put him in a position that turned the world upside down.

Quote
According to the Christian saying, those who reject Christ will still burn in hell(forever?).

There are people who are still alive and are burning in hell right now as we speak, people who:

feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

If you reject Love, you will feel this way.  That's why we out of Love seek to save these people, in hopes that they accept and come back.  We even FORCE these people into rehab.  We never allow a person to commit suicide in society (if we can catch them in time).  Imagine that.  And at times, they wrongly ascribe their hell to rehab, when hell starts within themselves and the way they react to rehab.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:46:17 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Garuda
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99



« Reply #851 on: November 19, 2013, 02:31:03 PM »

Why do certain people feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

I thought you believed in a Personal Providential God. And yet this is not an answer.

Quote
We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

Judas suffered also. And unto his eternal perdition. Scary things have been said about his person in the Bible. Scary afterlife things.

If you haven't get it I am speaking of a similar Judas type of suffering, spiritual anguish, emptyness, void, vanity, losing taste in life, being cursed, crawling oneself from one day to another, feeling awful, hated and despised by everyone, distasteful, walking corps, feeling unable to enjoy's life's tempo's, feeling like the most cursed person on earth, like the whole Universe is against you, and finding only unprofitable situations everywhere you go. EXPLAIN this to me!

Quote
We don't know why there is suffering.But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.    "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

What kind of mind is that that feels comfort in someone else's suffering, or just because someone else is suffering with him?

Quote
Quote
Can God suffer? Taking in consideration that He is considered perfect?

What does it mean for God to be perfect?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Perfection is defined by love.  God is perfect because of His unconditional love for all mankind.  God is in His very nature and persona Love.  God is perfect because God is Love (1 John 4:8 ).  And God became man and suffered because He is Love!  He shows us the perfection of His love in bodily and tangible form.  He forgave His crucifiers while on the Cross because He loves them.  St. Paul was a terrorist who lead the deaths of many Christians, and God's love put him in a position that turned the world upside down.

I don't like guesses or assumptions based solely on the Bible. I need some philosophical ground on this.

Quote
Quote
According to the Christian saying, those who reject Christ will still burn in hell(forever?).

There are people who are still alive and are burning in hell right now as we speak, people who:

feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

If you reject Love, you will feel this way.  That's why we out of Love seek to save these people, in hopes that they accept and come back.  We even FORCE these people into rehab.  We never allow a person to commit suicide in society (if we can catch them in time).  Imagine that.  And at times, they wrongly ascribe their hell to rehab, when hell starts within themselves and the way they react to rehab.

You have to define what you mean by "Love" . Is making people suffer all this things "Love" ? If God really "Loves" people so much and respects their free will, why doesn't he bless their choice indiferently of what this will be? Why did he put such consequence on certain choices? And I think you should try dialoguing rather than preaching. I am not impressed by preaching and never was. I may have seen it all, as it depends on preaching. Respond to direct questions directly and adress them directly.
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,211



« Reply #852 on: November 19, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »

Why do certain people feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

I thought you believed in a Personal Providential God. And yet this is not an answer.

Quote
We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

Judas suffered also. And unto his eternal perdition. Scary things have been said about his person in the Bible. Scary afterlife things.

If you haven't get it I am speaking of a similar Judas type of suffering, spiritual anguish, emptyness, void, vanity, losing taste in life, being cursed, crawling oneself from one day to another, feeling awful, hated and despised by everyone, distasteful, walking corps, feeling unable to enjoy's life's tempo's, feeling like the most cursed person on earth, like the whole Universe is against you, and finding only unprofitable situations everywhere you go. EXPLAIN this to me!

Quote
We don't know why there is suffering.But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.    "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

What kind of mind is that that feels comfort in someone else's suffering, or just because someone else is suffering with him?

Quote
Quote
Can God suffer? Taking in consideration that He is considered perfect?

What does it mean for God to be perfect?

Quote from: Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Perfection is defined by love.  God is perfect because of His unconditional love for all mankind.  God is in His very nature and persona Love.  God is perfect because God is Love (1 John 4:8 ).  And God became man and suffered because He is Love!  He shows us the perfection of His love in bodily and tangible form.  He forgave His crucifiers while on the Cross because He loves them.  St. Paul was a terrorist who lead the deaths of many Christians, and God's love put him in a position that turned the world upside down.

I don't like guesses or assumptions based solely on the Bible. I need some philosophical ground on this.

Quote
Quote
According to the Christian saying, those who reject Christ will still burn in hell(forever?).

There are people who are still alive and are burning in hell right now as we speak, people who:

feel spiritual emptiness inside than and perpetual psychological dystress and vanity, an emptiness so deep, and an emptiness so big that makes people feeling like they are walking dead, like they cannot be happy of anything and that made many take their own lives.

If you reject Love, you will feel this way.  That's why we out of Love seek to save these people, in hopes that they accept and come back.  We even FORCE these people into rehab.  We never allow a person to commit suicide in society (if we can catch them in time).  Imagine that.  And at times, they wrongly ascribe their hell to rehab, when hell starts within themselves and the way they react to rehab.

You have to define what you mean by "Love" . Is making people suffer all this things "Love" ? If God really "Loves" people so much and respects their free will, why doesn't he bless their choice indiferently of what this will be? Why did he put such consequence on certain choices? And I think you should try dialoguing rather than preaching. I am not impressed by preaching and never was. I may have seen it all, as it depends on preaching. Respond to direct questions directly and adress them directly.

God doesn't put consequences on them, they put these consequences upon themselves. When they reject the essence of Love itself, God, they feel the guilt of it.
Logged

"Rationalists are admirable beings, rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of stock and stone, believing it to be God." (Mahatma Gandhi)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,429


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #853 on: November 19, 2013, 04:37:14 PM »



Judas suffered also. And unto his eternal perdition. Scary things have been said about his person in the Bible. Scary afterlife things.

If you haven't get it I am speaking of a similar Judas type of suffering, spiritual anguish, emptyness, void, vanity, losing taste in life, being cursed, crawling oneself from one day to another, feeling awful, hated and despised by everyone, distasteful, walking corps, feeling unable to enjoy's life's tempo's, feeling like the most cursed person on earth, like the whole Universe is against you, and finding only unprofitable situations everywhere you go. EXPLAIN this to me!


I know exactly the question you asked.  And I answered it.  "It's not an answer" is not a discussion.  You can reply to me with something different.  Ruminate a bit on the answer I gave you and then you can ask me what you have a problem with and not give me short meaningless assumptions about my beliefs or about how an answer is not an answer.  If you repeat questions, then I will repeat my answers.

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

We don't know why there is suffering.But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.    "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

As for Judas, he was an example of how one turns suffering into tragic despair, and how he freely chose to "give up" rather than to persevere.

Quote
What kind of mind is that that feels comfort in someone else's suffering, or just because someone else is suffering with him?

I kindly ask you to go back and read what I wrote because you are misconstruing what I wrote.  Furthermore, if you feel that doing charitable work and living among those who are needy while doing charitable work to them is "feeling comfort in someone else's suffering", I recommend you to start a homeless shelter and start actively engaging with those people in need.  Then come back and tell us about your experiences.

Quote
I don't like guesses or assumptions based solely on the Bible. I need some philosophical ground on this.

Philosophically explain to me why you care and why you're here?


Quote
You have to define what you mean by "Love" . Is making people suffer all this things "Love" ? If God really "Loves" people so much and respects their free will, why doesn't he bless their choice indiferently of what this will be? Why did he put such consequence on certain choices? And I think you should try dialoguing rather than preaching. I am not impressed by preaching and never was. I may have seen it all, as it depends on preaching. Respond to direct questions directly and adress them directly.

Love is not something you define.  It's something you experience and act upon.  You can only describe what Love does or how one reacts with Love.  You cannot define what Love IS.

It's funny you even tell me I'm not "dialoguing".  I asked you questions earlier that you refused to answer.  If you're frustrated with the way I answer things, feel free not to reply.  After all, nothing I say will convince you.  I don't know who you are or what you do or where you were in life.  But it's obvious you know nothing about Orthodox Christianity, and you enjoy mental gymnastics more than living in reality, in the present.  And you enjoy pushing people's buttons and insulting their beliefs.  You paint a picture of yourself here as a person of pity.  You came to this website like a teenager who enjoys pranks.  That just shows how much maturity you have.  Perhaps if you grow up, you'll realize I am dialoguing with you.  I'm not trying to "teach you" or "preach to you" anything, or I'm not trying to impress you with anything.  I'm simply telling you what I BELIEVE.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 05:01:53 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Garuda
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99



« Reply #854 on: November 19, 2013, 05:09:56 PM »



Judas suffered also. And unto his eternal perdition. Scary things have been said about his person in the Bible. Scary afterlife things.

If you haven't get it I am speaking of a similar Judas type of suffering, spiritual anguish, emptyness, void, vanity, losing taste in life, being cursed, crawling oneself from one day to another, feeling awful, hated and despised by everyone, distasteful, walking corps, feeling unable to enjoy's life's tempo's, feeling like the most cursed person on earth, like the whole Universe is against you, and finding only unprofitable situations everywhere you go. EXPLAIN this to me!


I know exactly the question you asked.  And I answered it.  "It's not an answer" is not a discussion.  You can reply to me with something different.  Ruminate a bit on the answer I gave you and then you can ask me what you have a problem with and not give me short meaningless assumptions about my beliefs or about how an answer is not an answer.  If you repeat questions, then I will repeat my answers.

Nature is riddled with problems, diseases, storms, and social/psychological problems.  All a part of nature.

The question was why. This is what I asked. This is an non-answer. Next.

Quote
We believe in God who took part of nature, and of suffering, and taught us to use suffering as a build-up of character.  God suffered on the Cross.  God loved us so much, He suffered so that He may share in our pain, and teach us that through suffering, we may rise victorious.

We don't know why there is suffering.But we learn to live with it so that we may rise stronger.    "I suffer, therefore I am," an Indian Orthodox Metropolitan once said.  And he went through an amazing amount of suffering.  But what does this teach us?  God did not answer the question "why we suffer".  He showed us a way to help those who suffer, by living with those who suffer and suffering with them.  God did not stay in a lofty position to command us to do good.  He dwelt among us to SHOW US how to do good, even when we suffer.  Even from His infancy, He was not born in a kingdom, nor was he born in the comfort of a home, but in a manger, in the middle of a smelly barn where only animals live and defecate.  He was born in that atmosphere.

(It's the two or third time you bring this on. For the record, just for the record, I am not an Indian and have nothing to do with the Hindus religion or people. I have been an Eastern Orthodox all my life. )

Why should the suffering of Jesus make me feel better? Light ball moment(doh!)

This is why I said : "What kind of mind is that that feels comfort in someone else's suffering, or just because someone else is suffering with him? "

Now who is the one who is not ruminating and more it is shallow, superficial,lazy and disrespectful?



Quote
As for Judas, he was an example of how one turns suffering into tragic despair, and how he freely chose to "give up" rather than to persevere.

It doesn't look like he had an option : Psalms 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.

12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.

Quote
Quote
What kind of mind is that that feels comfort in someone else's suffering, or just because someone else is suffering with him?

I kindly ask you to go back and read what I wrote because you are misconstruing what I wrote.  Furthermore, if you feel that doing charitable work and living among those who are needy while doing charitable work to them is "feeling comfort in someone else's suffering", I recommend you to start a homeless shelter and start actively engaging with those people in need.  Then come back and tell us about your experiences.

Look above.

Quote
Quote
I don't like guesses or assumptions based solely on the Bible. I need some philosophical ground on this.

Philosophically explain to me why you care and why you're here?

I need to see understanding and explanations of why you think so. If not sorry I cannot buy something you are not convinced yourself, or life hasn't taught you, or you don't own it.

Quote
Quote
You have to define what you mean by "Love" . Is making people suffer all this things "Love" ? If God really "Loves" people so much and respects their free will, why doesn't he bless their choice indiferently of what this will be? Why did he put such consequence on certain choices? And I think you should try dialoguing rather than preaching. I am not impressed by preaching and never was. I may have seen it all, as it depends on preaching. Respond to direct questions directly and adress them directly.

Love is not something you define.  It's something you experience and act upon.  You can only describe what Love does or how one reacts with Love.  You cannot define what Love IS.

Yet you can.

Quote
It's funny you even tell me I'm not "dialoguing".  I asked you questions earlier that you refused to answer.  If you're frustrated with the way I answer things, feel free not to reply.  After all, nothing I say will convince you.  I don't know who you are or what you do or where you were in life.  But it's obvious you know nothing about Orthodox Christianity, and you enjoy mental gymnastics more than living in reality, in the present.  And you enjoy pushing people's buttons and insulting their beliefs.  You paint a picture of yourself here as a person of pity.  You came to this website like a teenager who enjoys pranks.  That just shows how much maturity you have.  Perhaps if you grow up, you'll realize I am dialoguing with you.  I'm not trying to "teach you" or "preach to you" anything.  I'm simply telling you what I BELIEVE.

What is the reason of this nitpicking? I am "frustrated" by your thinking that I might have been an ignorant about Orthodox Christianity, yet I have been an Orthodox Christian all my life, that is the precise reason why I am challenging this beliefs. Because if you analyse them they are full of fallacies and contradictorial notions, as you prooved yourself and when you got exposed you infuriated and exposed your fury in a rudely manner.

In this disregarding of yours you didn't have the decency to answer direct questions directly.

I am discussing beliefs/belief systems, phylosophies, theological issues. Why are you discussing my person?
Logged
Tags: truth philosophy Kant Islam Incarnation immature egotistical idiots 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.361 seconds with 73 queries.