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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 16726 times) Average Rating: 5
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jewish voice
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« Reply #765 on: November 16, 2013, 03:29:30 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

Quote from: math lover
Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct.
Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.
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jewish voice
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« Reply #766 on: November 16, 2013, 03:33:55 PM »

Plus, Shi'a have a different philosophy on Hadith than Sunnis. Sunnis just shut down their brains when a Hadith is 'authentic', Shi'a actually take a more critical look at individual narrations.

What?
He is trying to tell you in a nice way that he isn't Muslim Tongue He is Shi'a
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« Reply #767 on: November 16, 2013, 03:35:42 PM »

Plus, Shi'a have a different philosophy on Hadith than Sunnis. Sunnis just shut down their brains when a Hadith is 'authentic', Shi'a actually take a more critical look at individual narrations.

What?
He is trying to tell you in a nice way that he isn't Muslim Tongue He is Shi'a

He's Orthodox, and Shias are Muslims.
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« Reply #768 on: November 16, 2013, 03:58:37 PM »

Can God really wish something that doesn't come to pass? Then God is not omnipotent.

I've heard this many times.  If God gives free will to mankind and wishes not to intrude on man's decisions, even though man does make decisions that God does not like, then God is not omnipotent.  I can see where this is going, and I appreciate the thought.  But I'm not going to give the obvious answer that pretty much makes distinct between what God "can do" and what God "won't do".  But that's not the point.  The point is relationship.  Can I have a real relationship with a puppet master?  No!  Now, if being omnipotent means being a puppet master, then okay, I'm willing to play semantics with you and say God is NOT nor will He EVER BE omnipotent.  But I can say He's so powerful, I can't fathom or describe His power to you.


Quote
How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.


Can a wife be sick of her husband and call that "normal".  Can a wife live as if the husband doesn't exist and say that this is how a husband always relates with his wife?

Quote
What is a broken relationship with God to you, and how do you know such a relationship like an intimate relationship with God really exists? What does an intimate relationship with God entail? How is God, which are the divine qualities? How do I know I really want to be like God, and why would I?


That last question is a good one!  How do I know I really want to be like God?  Why would I?  Very easy:  Because you already are doing it without realizing it.  Human nature is by nature god-like compared to everything.  We can control the world and tame it.  We can advance in technology.  We can have rational discussions and debates.  We also advance in our species so that we may live longer.  Collectively, we are trying to extend our life expectancy.  Our very actions pretty much shows that we want to be like God.  The divine qualities are being "untouchable", the "source of life", the "source of existence", the "powerful", the "forever-living", the "timeless", the "boundless".  All of these qualities we aspire and we desire.  It's in our nature, and it's something that we cannot deny in ourselves.

Now the other caveat is that we can individually tame those desires.  Some of us do not desire to have these qualities.  At this point, I'm going to say malarkey.  We can fight against our desires, but they're nonetheless desires implanted in us.  If evolutionary science taught us anything, is that a normal healthy species is a species that aspires to do great things for their offspring to achieve even GREATER things.  For one to fight against these desires and say "I do not want" will cause much pain and suffering and anger and resentment, and is also unnatural even in an evolutionary point of view.  And that's the part of a broken relationship with God.  The other part is using your inner desires down a wrong path, and doing so apart from God.

Quote
How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God? If we take a look at the world, the world is full with negativity.

Your perception of the world is "glass half empty".  And it comes to show you are showing resentment to your desires in trying to at least understand why or how we believe.

Quote
How do we know that that is not the expression of God? Perhaps a certain someone does not like the way God is, and does not want to have a relationship with him, then what? Does that mean that not everybody was made to have an intimate relationship with God?

Everyone was made to have an intimate relationship and everyone was made with a choice to resist that desire.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 04:02:19 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

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« Reply #769 on: November 16, 2013, 04:04:38 PM »

Plus, Shi'a have a different philosophy on Hadith than Sunnis. Sunnis just shut down their brains when a Hadith is 'authentic', Shi'a actually take a more critical look at individual narrations.

What?
He is trying to tell you in a nice way that he isn't Muslim Tongue He is Shi'a

He's Orthodox, and Shias are Muslims.
I was joking with you Brother hence the funny face in my post I'm Sunni and don't agree with everything the Shi'a do but that is between you and Allah(swt).
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dzheremi
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« Reply #770 on: November 16, 2013, 04:08:34 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
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« Reply #771 on: November 16, 2013, 04:16:26 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley

I think it's important to note that when talking to an atheist, it makes no difference if you quote a story that he probably considers fictional.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #772 on: November 16, 2013, 04:19:39 PM »

Oh, I'm sorry. I was not aware that this person is an atheist. I thought they were a struggling Christian of some sort.
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jewish voice
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« Reply #773 on: November 16, 2013, 04:19:54 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then
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« Reply #774 on: November 16, 2013, 04:28:50 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then

Where did you get the idea that "Allah was wrong and he had no clue", or that "Allah had to come up with a quick back-up plan to save man"?

Read the story of Adam and Eve.  He said, "if you sin, you will surely die".  Allah is forgiving and merciful, and yet we still die.  Why?
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #775 on: November 16, 2013, 04:35:50 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then

Where did you get the idea that "Allah was wrong and he had no clue", or that "Allah had to come up with a quick back-up plan to save man"?

Read the story of Adam and Eve.  He said, "if you sin, you will surely die".  Allah is forgiving and merciful, and yet we still die.  Why?

But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 04:36:43 PM by Math lover » Logged
dzheremi
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« Reply #776 on: November 16, 2013, 04:42:29 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then

When we are talking about God's relationship to man, there are two parties to consider: God and man. Guess which one was wrong? It wasn't God.
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« Reply #777 on: November 16, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then

Where did you get the idea that "Allah was wrong and he had no clue", or that "Allah had to come up with a quick back-up plan to save man"?

Read the story of Adam and Eve.  He said, "if you sin, you will surely die".  Allah is forgiving and merciful, and yet we still die.  Why?

But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.
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« Reply #778 on: November 16, 2013, 04:52:40 PM »

How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.

Because Adam and Eve were not always cast out from paradise, just as Lucifer was not always cast out from heaven. But don't take my word for it -- listen to the prayers of our Fathers: O God, the great, the eternal, who formed man in incorruption, and death which entered into the world through the envy of the devil, you have destroyed...

Now we are in the process of getting back to how and where we were meant to be, through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Smiley
that don't make sense at all to me. So your saying that when Allah(swt) said in Genesis that all was good that Allah (swt) was wrong and he had no clue ? Allah (swt) had to come up with a quick back up plan to save man. How did Allah (swt) forgive sins before Jesus and his death? So your saying that your god cant over look sins as he wills so who does your god answer too then

Where did you get the idea that "Allah was wrong and he had no clue", or that "Allah had to come up with a quick back-up plan to save man"?

Read the story of Adam and Eve.  He said, "if you sin, you will surely die".  Allah is forgiving and merciful, and yet we still die.  Why?
Cause as it is said in the Quran everything must taste death. The only one who is forever and everlasting is Allah (swt) even the Angles will taste death at the end of days only Allah(swt) will be the only one left then he will bring us all back.
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« Reply #779 on: November 16, 2013, 05:03:02 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?
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« Reply #780 on: November 16, 2013, 05:06:38 PM »



But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.

Jokes.

It is consequences of a thing that (Christian version of) God, set in motion though uh?
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« Reply #781 on: November 16, 2013, 05:08:36 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

Unless you believe this story is corrupted.  Then we have a situation.  Do you feel that the Genesis story is wrong or corrupted when it writes, "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

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« Reply #782 on: November 16, 2013, 05:19:20 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

    "By the passage of time*1, all of the humankind are in a state of great loss*2, except for those who come to the correct belief*3 and do the deeds of righteousness; and encourage and exhort one another to Truth*4 and encourage and exhort one another to steadfast patience."

        1. Allah swears an oath of great consequence
        2. Meaning "Hell" as a result of their dealings while on earth
        3. Oneness of Allah (Tawheed or monotheism)
        4. Here "Truth" means anything and everything pertaining to pure montheism (see: Islam)

    From the above quoted portion of the Quran and verses related to it, the scholars of Islam have concluded the following:

        A)    All of us are born with a purpose to be fulfilled before death – Worship of the One True God, Alone and on His terms and conditions.
        Note: Quran says: "Allah only created you all for the purpose of worshipping Him."
        B)    All of us will die and be in the grave.
        Note: Quran says: "Every soul shall taste death."
        C)    All of us (believers and non-believers) will be recreated (resurrected) on the Day of Judgment.
        Note: Quran says: "Surely from Allah you came and to Him is your return."
        And "Do they not think that they will be resurrected, on a Great Day? The Day when all mankind will stand before the Lord of the Worlds?"
        D)   Each person will receive his/her "Book of Record" (listing of all their deeds).
        Note: Quran says: "Nay! Truly, the Record of the wicked is a Preserved Record."
        And "Those who receive their books in their right hands will be successful." and "Those who receive their books behind their backs will be the losers."
        E)    Each person will be held accountable for what he/she has done.
        Note: Quran says: "Every person will see any good they have done, even an atom's weight. Every person will see any evil they have done, even an atom's weight."
        F)     None will take away the sins or punishment for another.
        Note: Quran says: "Allah does not burden a person beyond his ability. He will be rewarded for that which he has earned, and punished for that which he has earned."
        G)   None will make intercession with the Almighty except as He Wills.
        Note: Quran says: "Who is there that could come between Allah and what He has created except that He give them permission?"
        H) The final destination of Heaven or Hell will be made known then.
        Note: Quran says: "Verily, You shall see the blazing Fire (Hell)."
        I)   None will enter the Paradise except by the Mercy of Allah.
        Note: Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: “None shall enter the Jennah (Paradise) except with the Mercy of Allah.” When asked by his companions: “Even you? O, prophet of Allah?” And He replied: “Even me.”
        J) None will enter the Fire except those who have earned it.
        Note: Quran says: "Therefore, I have warned you of a blazing Fire (Hell). None shall enter it except the most wrected.
http://islamtomorrow.com/death.htm taken from here and you can read to learn more
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« Reply #783 on: November 16, 2013, 05:28:17 PM »



But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.

Jokes.

It is consequences of a thing that (Christian version of) God, set in motion though uh?
thats deep...really I thought about these things too...

The point though is not lost. It's like talking to an adult. If you continue to do this, you'll do great things, but if you go down this other path, you'll regret it. I can't stop you, but I want what's best for you.

God therefore created us in a way where we have this choice without direct punishment by God.  The point is the extra step means God cares about our autonomy and yet God cares about our choices and desires to help man no matter what he does.
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« Reply #784 on: November 16, 2013, 05:32:23 PM »

Quote
        1. Allah swears an oath of great consequence
        2. Meaning "Hell" as a result of their dealings while on earth

Touching quickly on this, we need to get back to the story of Genesis, which forms a basis for our theology.  In it, God swears an oath of great consequence to Adam and Eve.  They can eat of all the trees in the garden, except one.  They are asked not to eat it, and doing so, there will be a consequence, which was death.

Is this story non-existent or ignored by Muslims?  Or refuted even?
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« Reply #785 on: November 16, 2013, 05:32:55 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

Unless you believe this story is corrupted.  Then we have a situation.  Do you feel that the Genesis story is wrong or corrupted when it writes, "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.
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« Reply #786 on: November 16, 2013, 05:38:52 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

Unless you believe this story is corrupted.  Then we have a situation.  Do you feel that the Genesis story is wrong or corrupted when it writes, "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Praise to Allah, that is true because of the justification by faith (and actions) in the bible it mentions with Ibrahim as well. So the death was not necessary for sin.
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« Reply #787 on: November 16, 2013, 05:52:04 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.
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« Reply #788 on: November 16, 2013, 06:12:32 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.

The author of the Quran says Allah forgave Adam, but it also says that Adam was still punished due to his sin. Adam was commanded to get down from there.

But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time. (Surah 2:36)
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« Reply #789 on: November 16, 2013, 06:48:43 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.
No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals
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« Reply #790 on: November 16, 2013, 06:50:18 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word.

This is NOT TRUE. Ishmael was only a brother to Isaac, but not an heir of the promises made in Isaac. The Torah never designated Ishmael as the brother of Israel. In the Torah only the descendants of Jacob's brother Esau (Edomites) are called the brethren of Israel. (Ironically, even the author of the Qur'an did not say that Meccans and Israelites were brothers.)

The words Ishmael and Ishmaelites occur only in the Book of Genesis of the Five Books of Moshe. In the other books of the Torah even the name Ishmael does not occur. Moshe never talked of Ishmael or Ishmaelites.

The formula introduced by YHWH reads "I am the Elohim of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob". Ishmael is not in this formula. The author of the Qur'an primarily endorsed this Biblical doctrine before preaching heresy and blasphemy after Muhammad's migration.

These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping. (Surah 19:58)

Four patriarchs are mentioned in this verse: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel. Since Israel descended from Abraham through Isaac, Ishmael is the odd one out.

Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. (Surah 3:33)

We can see that the author of the Qur'an modified what he had written in Surah 19:58 by replacing Israel with Imran. However, even in this new formula are four names and the fourth patriarch is Imran, who descended from Abraham through Isaac, not Ishmael. Thus, Ishmael is again out! (Yet the author of the Qur'an claimed that this Amram was Yeshua's immediate grandfather (Surah 3:35)!!!  Grin

Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament.

Reference please? You have got to show references here. This is no place for Islamic daydreaming.

Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about

They were talking about the promised prophet in Deuteronomy 18:15. Yeshua's apostles taught that this promise too was fulfilled in Christ (Acts 3:22).

cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet.

This is not accurate per se. According to the New Testament, Yeshua has His own prophets. For example:

Now there were these prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius the Cyrenian, Manaen (a close friend of Herod the tetrarch  from childhood) and Saul. (Acts 13:1)

but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Another prophet after Christ? After? Where is that written? If you infer this from the order of people mentioned in the question posed by the Levites (Christ, Eliyahu, the prophet), you are in serious trouble as you must wait for Eliyahu to come after Christ and before the promised prophet!  Roll Eyes laugh
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« Reply #791 on: November 16, 2013, 06:57:34 PM »

No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals

Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” (Genesis 2:16-17)

Adam and Eve died because they ate of the forbidden fruit not because they were innately mortal.

So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because  all sinned – (Romans 5:12)

It's obvious that you have never read the Bible. Take my advice: do not get into religious debates before knowing what your opponents believe and teach.  Grin
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« Reply #792 on: November 16, 2013, 07:41:49 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.
No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals
You obviously don't know the Bible, at least not the New Testament (it has lots to say on Adam in this connection).

But then, what can be expected from a "Jewish" voice that shouts Muslim dogma?
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« Reply #793 on: November 16, 2013, 07:42:03 PM »



But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.

Jokes.

It is consequences of a thing that (Christian version of) God, set in motion though uh?
thats deep...really I thought about these things too...

The point though is not lost. It's like talking to an adult. If you continue to do this, you'll do great things, but if you go down this other path, you'll regret it. I can't stop you, but I want what's best for you.

God therefore created us in a way where we have this choice without direct punishment by God.  The point is the extra step means God cares about our autonomy and yet God cares about our choices and desires to help man no matter what he does.
God didn't say "If you eat the fruit of the tree, I will kill you."  He said "If you eat of the fruit of the tree, you will die."

I don't tell children "if you put your hand on the hot stove, I will burn you."  I say "If you put your hand on the hot stove, you will get burned."

IOW, no it is not "consequences of a thing that God, set in motion" (the Christian version of God being the only One there is)," but Adam, who chose disobedience and consequent death (what else would happen if you flee from the Life-Giver?).
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« Reply #794 on: November 16, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »

Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness

"The law entered so that sin might abound...", eh? And here I thought Muslims hated St. Paul. Grin

Quote
and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Ah...so I guess Jesus Christ was just chilling out playing bingo in Hades, then? Gotcha. Trust a Muslim to set us all straight.  Roll Eyes

Anyway, as with most Muslim objections, I like to refer to St. Athanaisus the Apostolic's On the Incarnation, which, in it's own way, answers all similar "______ (Jesus, God, etc.) didn't have to..." kinds of objections. In it, our father St. Athanasius writes:

Quote
Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as creatures in the Image of God. No, repentance could not meet the case. What—or rather Who was it that was needed for such grace and such recall as we required? Who, save the Word of God Himself, Who also in the beginning had made all things out of nothing? His part it was, and His alone, both to bring again the corruptible to incorruption and to maintain for the Father His consistency of character with all. For He alone, being Word of the Father and above all, was in consequence both able to recreate all, and worthy to suffer on behalf of all and to be an ambassador for all with the Father. For this purpose, then, the incorporeal and incorruptible and immaterial Word of God entered our world. In one sense, indeed, He was not far from it before, for no part of creation had ever been without Him Who, while ever abiding in union with the Father, yet fills all things that are. But now He entered the world in a new way, stooping to our level in His love and Self-revealing to us [....] He took to Himself a body, a human body even as our own. Nor did He will merely to become embodied or merely to appear; had that been so, He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body, and not only so, but He took it directly from a spotless, stainless virgin..."
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« Reply #795 on: November 16, 2013, 07:51:28 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word.

This is NOT TRUE. Ishmael was only a brother to Isaac, but not an heir of the promises made in Isaac. The Torah never designated Ishmael as the brother of Israel. In the Torah only the descendants of Jacob's brother Esau (Edomites) are called the brethren of Israel. (Ironically, even the author of the Qur'an did not say that Meccans and Israelites were brothers.)

The words Ishmael and Ishmaelites occur only in the Book of Genesis of the Five Books of Moshe. In the other books of the Torah even the name Ishmael does not occur. Moshe never talked of Ishmael or Ishmaelites.

The formula introduced by YHWH reads "I am the Elohim of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob". Ishmael is not in this formula. The author of the Qur'an primarily endorsed this Biblical doctrine before preaching heresy and blasphemy after Muhammad's migration.

These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping. (Surah 19:58)

Four patriarchs are mentioned in this verse: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel. Since Israel descended from Abraham through Isaac, Ishmael is the odd one out.

Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. (Surah 3:33)

We can see that the author of the Qur'an modified what he had written in Surah 19:58 by replacing Israel with Imran. However, even in this new formula are four names and the fourth patriarch is Imran, who descended from Abraham through Isaac, not Ishmael. Thus, Ishmael is again out! (Yet the author of the Qur'an claimed that this Amram was Yeshua's immediate grandfather (Surah 3:35)!!!  Grin

Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament.

Reference please? You have got to show references here. This is no place for Islamic daydreaming.

Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about

They were talking about the promised prophet in Deuteronomy 18:15. Yeshua's apostles taught that this promise too was fulfilled in Christ (Acts 3:22).

cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet.

This is not accurate per se. According to the New Testament, Yeshua has His own prophets. For example:

Now there were these prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius the Cyrenian, Manaen (a close friend of Herod the tetrarch  from childhood) and Saul. (Acts 13:1)

but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Another prophet after Christ? After? Where is that written? If you infer this from the order of people mentioned in the question posed by the Levites (Christ, Eliyahu, the prophet), you are in serious trouble as you must wait for Eliyahu to come after Christ and before the promised prophet!  Roll Eyes laugh


Isaiah 29:12 And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”

he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with Ten Thousand Saints : from his right hand went a fiery law for them. " (Deuteronomy 33:2
Biblical scholars concur that the desert of Paran/Faran was the home of the Ishmaelites.

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« Reply #796 on: November 16, 2013, 07:51:35 PM »

Quote
Well, look at what man does to the world today.  Sure man does great things, but man also does the worst things in this world.  The caveat with man's greatness is man's ability to use greatness in a terrifying manner.  Thus, because man falls short of doing things right in the world, it's also proof of man falling short in doing things right before God.  If God wishes to unite to you, you shun Him away.  If God wishes for you to do something, you do something else.  The relationship God wishes to establish, you destroy.

If there was no relationship broken, no need to fix anything, and God was simply a deity who makes rules to follow, then there's no need to believe in that God, in my opinion.  We can follow rules of morality without God.  God made us because He loves us, and this love means He wants to have an intimate relationship with us, and He wants us to be like Him.  He wants us to inherit His glory, His power, His life, His majesty, His holiness, His blessings.  He wants us to inherit His "99 names."  And He did this best by the incarnation.

Can God really wish something that doesn't come to pass? Then God is not omnipotent. How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans. What is a broken relationship with God to you, and how do you know such a relationship like an intimate relationship with God really exists? What does an intimate relationship with God entail? How is God, which are the divine qualities? How do I know I really want to be like God, and why would I? How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God? If we take a look at the world, the world is full with negativity. How do we know that that is not the expression of God? Perhaps a certain someone does not like the way God is, and does not want to have a relationship with him, then what? Does that mean that not everybody was made to have an intimate relationship with God?

You ask, "How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God?"  Try, and you will see.

I tried. I did not like it as an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #797 on: November 16, 2013, 07:51:35 PM »

Can God really wish something that doesn't come to pass? Then God is not omnipotent.

I've heard this many times.  If God gives free will to mankind and wishes not to intrude on man's decisions, even though man does make decisions that God does not like, then God is not omnipotent.  I can see where this is going, and I appreciate the thought.  But I'm not going to give the obvious answer that pretty much makes distinct between what God "can do" and what God "won't do".  But that's not the point.  The point is relationship.  Can I have a real relationship with a puppet master?  No!  Now, if being omnipotent means being a puppet master, then okay, I'm willing to play semantics with you and say God is NOT nor will He EVER BE omnipotent.  But I can say He's so powerful, I can't fathom or describe His power to you.

If God doesn't do what he wishes than he doesn't trully wish it. Is God confused/conflicted in its own will?

1. He wills to change something in/for/within us
2. He wills us to have free-will
3. He gets so angry over this he sends those who don't to an eternal hell.

or

4. Predestinated free-will
5. Why then eternal hell?


I think that if God is omnipotent and he really and trully wants something than that something comes to be/pass/consumation. After all he is the creator he creates creatures the way he wants. What kind of relationships are those with confused/conflicted beings?

Quote
Quote
How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans.


Can a wife be sick of her husband and call that "normal".  Can a wife live as if the husband doesn't exist and say that this is how a husband always relates with his wife?

This is not something conjugal even if the Bible chooses such a metaphor sometimes. Man and woman are beings of the same level, same constitution, etc. Some prefer to relate in a gay manner. Some men like men and some women like women. There is no universality on this. Yes, a woman can live without a man and a man without a woman as many have and many live differently or even celibate. The question is what is this relationship with God that you keep parroting about? How do you know there is such thing, and what does it entail?

Quote
Quote
What is a broken relationship with God to you, and how do you know such a relationship like an intimate relationship with God really exists? What does an intimate relationship with God entail? How is God, which are the divine qualities? How do I know I really want to be like God, and why would I?


That last question is a good one!  How do I know I really want to be like God?  Why would I?  Very easy:  Because you already are doing it without realizing it.  Human nature is by nature god-like compared to everything.  We can control the world and tame it.  We can advance in technology.  We can have rational discussions and debates.  We also advance in our species so that we may live longer.  Collectively, we are trying to extend our life expectancy.  Our very actions pretty much shows that we want to be like God.  The divine qualities are being "untouchable", the "source of life", the "source of existence", the "powerful", the "forever-living", the "timeless", the "boundless".  All of these qualities we aspire and we desire.  It's in our nature, and it's something that we cannot deny in ourselves.

Now the other caveat is that we can individually tame those desires.  Some of us do not desire to have these qualities.  At this point, I'm going to say malarkey.  We can fight against our desires, but they're nonetheless desires implanted in us.  If evolutionary science taught us anything, is that a normal healthy species is a species that aspires to do great things for their offspring to achieve even GREATER things.  For one to fight against these desires and say "I do not want" will cause much pain and suffering and anger and resentment, and is also unnatural even in an evolutionary point of view.  And that's the part of a broken relationship with God.  The other part is using your inner desires down a wrong path, and doing so apart from God.

I think chances are God is made more in the image of man than man in the image of God.

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Quote
How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God? If we take a look at the world, the world is full with negativity.

Your perception of the world is "glass half empty".  And it comes to show you are showing resentment to your desires in trying to at least understand why or how we believe.

Allow me to correct myself, the world is both negative(infected with negativity) and positive, and so are we. Why do we need a God for that?
Quote
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How do we know that that is not the expression of God? Perhaps a certain someone does not like the way God is, and does not want to have a relationship with him, then what? Does that mean that not everybody was made to have an intimate relationship with God?

Everyone was made to have an intimate relationship and everyone was made with a choice to resist that desire.

Than why are some people so religiously unappealing? What happens if some do not want a relationship with God? Why don't they?
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« Reply #798 on: November 16, 2013, 07:51:35 PM »

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Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.

I don't think it is about Christ being the end of all prophecies the post Christum Epistles speak of a continuance of prophecy for the adepts of the Christ. I think it is meant to say that Christ is God, the Amen, and the Logos on whom all creation is hanged.
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« Reply #799 on: November 16, 2013, 08:01:27 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.
No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals
You obviously don't know the Bible, at least not the New Testament (it has lots to say on Adam in this connection).

But then, what can be expected from a "Jewish" voice that shouts Muslim dogma?
If you would of read my first post in this thread you would of seen that I converted to Islam from Judaism so you on about my screen name shows you didn't read the thread or are having a misunderstanding. I know your in yellow and be a bit for you post again so take the time to read the thread and also post to me from the Bible,Torah or Quran where it says Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree THANKS
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« Reply #800 on: November 17, 2013, 09:15:16 AM »



But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.

Jokes.

It is consequences of a thing that (Christian version of) God, set in motion though uh?
thats deep...really I thought about these things too...

The point though is not lost. It's like talking to an adult. If you continue to do this, you'll do great things, but if you go down this other path, you'll regret it. I can't stop you, but I want what's best for you.

God therefore created us in a way where we have this choice without direct punishment by God.  The point is the extra step means God cares about our autonomy and yet God cares about our choices and desires to help man no matter what he does.
God didn't say "If you eat the fruit of the tree, I will kill you."  He said "If you eat of the fruit of the tree, you will die."

I don't tell children "if you put your hand on the hot stove, I will burn you."  I say "If you put your hand on the hot stove, you will get burned."

IOW, no it is not "consequences of a thing that God, set in motion" (the Christian version of God being the only One there is)," but Adam, who chose disobedience and consequent death (what else would happen if you flee from the Life-Giver?).

You are forgetting the God is the Alpha and Omega.

The God sets all 'firsts' in motion; He decides the set up and how it all will end.
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« Reply #801 on: November 17, 2013, 11:17:39 AM »



But even after Jesus came, we still die.
BTW, in Islam, we don't view death as a punishment.

Neither do we; it's a consequence, not a punishment. You're on OrthodoxChristianity.net, not CalvinistAngrySkyDad.net.

Jokes.

It is consequences of a thing that (Christian version of) God, set in motion though uh?
thats deep...really I thought about these things too...

The point though is not lost. It's like talking to an adult. If you continue to do this, you'll do great things, but if you go down this other path, you'll regret it. I can't stop you, but I want what's best for you.

God therefore created us in a way where we have this choice without direct punishment by God.  The point is the extra step means God cares about our autonomy and yet God cares about our choices and desires to help man no matter what he does.
God didn't say "If you eat the fruit of the tree, I will kill you."  He said "If you eat of the fruit of the tree, you will die."

I don't tell children "if you put your hand on the hot stove, I will burn you."  I say "If you put your hand on the hot stove, you will get burned."

IOW, no it is not "consequences of a thing that God, set in motion" (the Christian version of God being the only One there is)," but Adam, who chose disobedience and consequent death (what else would happen if you flee from the Life-Giver?).

Isa, seriously this is a ridiculously analogy.
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« Reply #802 on: November 17, 2013, 12:47:18 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.
No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals
You obviously don't know the Bible, at least not the New Testament (it has lots to say on Adam in this connection).

But then, what can be expected from a "Jewish" voice that shouts Muslim dogma?
If you would of read my first post in this thread you would of seen that I converted to Islam from Judaism so you on about my screen name shows you didn't read the thread or are having a misunderstanding.
You misunderstand.  You forget that we have met before:
I will not say that it don't happen that Muslims become Christian but I do know you can go on youtube and see hundreds of fake Muslim converts to Christian. There are things in Islam that just are not known to the public. You could read the Quran 100 times and never know such things. That's how Muslims know their fake.
and we are going to take a Jewish voice on that?

Any examples you can offer of "fake" Muslim converts to Christianity?  Because finding exposed fake Christian conversions to Islam is quite easy, e.g.:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/abuishaq.html

The knowledge of Muslims of Islam in general isn't so high, so even those born in Muslim families in Muslim countries wouldn't know the things you are alluding to, let alone be able to spot.

Btw, Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, all his descendants are/were Christian (I understand that one has apostacized and become Parsi, his father's original religion).
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« Reply #803 on: November 17, 2013, 01:17:24 PM »

Garuda,  brace yourself.  I hope you have a tough shell:

Quote
If God doesn't do what he wishes than he doesn't trully wish it. Is God confused/conflicted in its own will?

No.  He did exactly what He wished.  He wished that we have a relationship with Him while at the same time He wished that we do so freely.  There's no conflict.  The conflict is not in God, but in us.  If you feel God is confused or conflicted, the answer is no.  He always has a way with dealing in our choices.  Every choice we make away from Him follows by a choice God makes to make it clearer that He is waiting and will never abandon us.  Your philosophical hoops to find fault with God actually shows a beautiful human side in you that you never realized.  You come here and attack God.  That shows that you care.  GASP  Yes, you care enough to come, waste your time online to discuss issues you had trouble with in the past, and you probably still have trouble.  The dilemma is not in God. The dilemma is in you Garuda.  You have not allowed in your heart and in your mind any possibility that God exists, and yet you choose to waste your time attacking a notion of God as if you're mad at Him.  You can deny this all you want, but God knows exactly what He does.  It's you who is confused and conflicted in your will.  You disbelieve in God, and yet you continue to come and post here.

Quote
1. He wills to change something in/for/within us
2. He wills us to have free-will
3. He gets so angry over this he sends those who don't to an eternal hell.

or

4. Predestinated free-will
5. Why then eternal hell?

As an atheist, who are you to attack eternal hell?  What difference does it make in your life if you live in eternal hell or cease to exist after death.  One of the many mysteries of humanity in your warped world is that man lives to die.  Forget about advancements, companionships, having children, leaving a legacy.  In the end, all man, the whole world in fact, lives to die.  It's amazing how after 13 billion years, Earth supported life only to be destroyed after another 13 billion years, that's if a huge asteroid doesn't finish us first before then.

You ask questions about the afterlife even we as Orthodox Christians know NOTHING about.  The best we can tell you is "neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart contemplates".  Furthermore, you live in a hell of your own making.  You gnash your cyber teeth at us with many of your posts here, many of which are in poor taste, which shows how much pity one should have for you.

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I think that if God is omnipotent and he really and trully wants something than that something comes to be/pass/consumation. After all he is the creator he creates creatures the way he wants. What kind of relationships are those with confused/conflicted beings?
The kind that proves He is a merciful, loving, and compassionate God.  It's only through our conflicted and confused selves where we have an appreciation of how much grander the love of God is for us.  Ever hear the saying, "if you don't love me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best"?  That's exactly the type of relationship God has for us.  He loves us at our worst, and even more amazing, He doesn't make us in our best, but even in His best.

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This is not something conjugal even if the Bible chooses such a metaphor sometimes. Man and woman are beings of the same level, same constitution, etc. Some prefer to relate in a gay manner. Some men like men and some women like women. There is no universality on this. Yes, a woman can live without a man and a man without a woman as many have and many live differently or even celibate. The question is what is this relationship with God that you keep parroting about? How do you know there is such thing, and what does it entail?

It's a metaphor that best explains the indescribable feeling and joy one has when engaging in this relationship with God.  The relationship entailed from the very beginning that we mature in His glory until a time comes when He actually becomes us that we may become Him.  His plan for us, the peak of His creation, is to be free in His glory, to be glorified in His freedom.  And if we mess up, He is there ready to repair all problems for us.  And yes, there's a great chasm and difference between God and man.  Just as there is a clear difference between man and woman in the conjugal relationship, so God, despite His uncreated and limitless nature, wishes to dwell in us, and we dwell in Him.

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Than why are some people so religiously unappealing? What happens if some do not want a relationship with God? Why don't they?

The desire is always there, and nothing will be right so long as you resist it.  Look at yourself.  Think at how you post here.  You deride. You're rude.  You're angry.  Obviously, your disbelief in God makes you not a pleasant person.  If you really thought you were fine without God, I would expect a much more mature and kinder soul out of you.  But you're obviously troubled.  So long as you continue to fight and to discuss this, you are actively suppressing a natural desire in you that would be unnatural for you to not succumb to.
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« Reply #804 on: November 17, 2013, 01:33:38 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

Unless you believe this story is corrupted.  Then we have a situation.  Do you feel that the Genesis story is wrong or corrupted when it writes, "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Jewish Voice,

You bring up something interesting.  Let's look at Genesis together.

Genesis chapter 2 clearly states:  15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Is Allah a liar?  Does Allah go back to His word?  What did Allah do when man disobeyed?

If you feel the passage is corrupted or wrong, please say so, then the discussion would be different, and you could admit that the Torah has made it clear that God commanded there will be death if Adam ate from a particular tree.

Is God forgiving?  Absolutely!  But God did not say to Adam, "If you eat from the tree, you would be considered a sinner, which will lead me to consider forgiveness if you repent."  No, He said, "if you eat, you will surely die."

I recently had my heart broken a year ago.  And boy, did I feel truly dead to the world because of her!  Mortality is only a small part of the message in Genesis.  It's separation of the spiritual life from God, typified symbolically by the ejection from the Garden of Eden, as is seen in Genesis chapter 3.

In Genesis chapter 3, we also see God did forgive Adam and Eve, but they remained outside the Garden of Eden.  How do we know He forgave them?  21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.  So obviously, it doesn't sound like God directly punishing Adam and Eve.  It sounds like Adam and Eve did something that lead to consequences, like eating poisoned fruit that will make you sick, but God comes quickly to comfort the sickness of the death of their souls, and never abandons them.  And for us as Christians, we have special link with a passage in that same chapter of Genesis that seems to bring forth a promise that He will make right Adam's wrong of choosing death, as God was speaking to the serpent (typified for Satan):

Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.


The passages makes no sense to an ancient Hebrew, for woman cannot bear "seed", but only man.  And who is this "seed of woman" that will bruise the head of Satan, the jealous bringer of death?
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« Reply #805 on: November 17, 2013, 01:44:48 PM »

"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve became mortals after eating the fruit of the tree.
No where in the Torah,Bible or Quran does it ever say that Adam and Eve where not mortals before they ate of the tree. You can't add to the text and make what you want it to say. Adam and Eve where made from clay thats all it says never says they would live forever if they hadn't eaten of the tree or whatever Allah(swt) means by this tree be it real or something else. Cause Allah(swt) said there was a tree of life and a tree of good and evil so that tells me they where always mortals

Just because they were by nature mortal does not mean they were living by the grace of God (typified in the Tree of Life) in immortality.  If God made a commandment to avoid the Tree of Knowledge or else they will "surely die", this means God was sustaining them and having them transcend their own mortal nature.
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« Reply #806 on: November 17, 2013, 02:10:55 PM »

Ismail is the Brother of the Jews as you have to go back to were the word was first used to know the meaning of the word. Also you have in the book of Isaiah talking about the unlearned Prophet which clearly can't be Jesus as he was found in the temple at age 12 learning from the high priest and again he is shown to be able to read the Torah in the new testament. Also when they came to John they asked him 3 questions 1) Are you the Christ? 2) Are you Elijah? 3) Are you that Prophet? The third question should stick in your mind what other prophet are they talking about cause in christian terms Jesus is the be all end all Prophet. but yet they (Jews) know of another prophet after the Christ seams kinda odd to ask that question if there isn't another one after him don't you think.

Did anyone have a answer for this? I'd be interested to know it if they do. Thank you.

Poppy, I don't think the answer to this question will satisfy you, as it has never really satisfied any Muslim.  The assumption comes from a theology in your religion that claims that there has to come a prophet who is the seal of prophets after the Messiah.  In Christianity, the seal of prophets, kings, and priests was in the Messiah Himself.  The idea of a Messiah is so strong, even in Judaism, that He is considered to come at the end of the world in Jewish religion.  We too believe the Messiah will come at the end of the world, in a "second coming".  Furthermore, the question is also using writings that seem to reflect an attitude in Islam that what Jews and Christians have has been corrupted, and the "original" is missing.  Please correct me if I'm misconstruing that part of your religion.  So if you feel the need to speak of things in our Bible that pertain to something "you feel" pertains to your prophet, don't you think you have to establish a level of legitimacy of the whole text and the context of this before you can assume this talks about Mohamed?

The answer is this.  The Pharisees are instigators.  Therefore, they became repetitive in their question.  They did not know who "the prophet" mentioned in Deut 18:18 would be, whether it be the Messiah or some other prophet.  They also assumed that this prophet would be from the line of Israel, not from Ishmael.  Inasmuch as one can make an argument of "Ishmaelites" as "brothers", Israelites, which are by default children of Isaac, only considered themselves as holy people, and if anyone should come and be called a "prophet", it would not be outside the confines of the children of Jacob/Israel.  Read the whole chapter 18 of Deuteronomy.  Look at the very beginning:

Quote
“The priests, the Levites—all the tribe of Levi—shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and His portion. 2 Therefore they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance, as He said to them.

Here, the "no part nor inheritance among their brethren" is defined by the fact that the "brethren" are "with Israel".  If we know our context clues well, there's no way "Ishmaelites" IN THIS CHAPTER ALONE has been included as "brethren".  Biology does not matter here.  "Among brethren" could be an Chinese or an Indian prophet for all we care, since we're all children of Adam anyway.  But in Deuteronomy Chapter 18, the "brethren" is not even Isaacites, but Israelites, since it even excludes Israel's twin brother.
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« Reply #807 on: November 17, 2013, 04:43:49 PM »

Why must "everything taste death"?  Does Allah allow death without a purpose.  Is it "just because"?

If death is not a consequence of someone's action, why is death a punishment for some of man's sins in the Quran or the Torah?

Unless you believe this story is corrupted.  Then we have a situation.  Do you feel that the Genesis story is wrong or corrupted when it writes, "If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
"If you eat from this tree, you will surely die?"
 Did Adam die from eating from the tree? No cause Allah(swt) gave him a way to repent see Adam had to eat from the tree so Allah(swt) could show us his forgiveness and here we can see it didn't take Jesus to die for Adam to be forgiven of the sin.

Jewish Voice,

You bring up something interesting.  Let's look at Genesis together.

Genesis chapter 2 clearly states:  15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Is Allah a liar?  Does Allah go back to His word?  What did Allah do when man disobeyed?

If you feel the passage is corrupted or wrong, please say so, then the discussion would be different, and you could admit that the Torah has made it clear that God commanded there will be death if Adam ate from a particular tree.
I'm not sure if "command is the right word."  He rather just stated the plain fact: disobedience results in death.

As you point out:
So obviously, it doesn't sound like God directly punishing Adam and Eve.  It sounds like Adam and Eve did something that lead to consequences, like eating poisoned fruit that will make you sick, but God comes quickly to comfort the sickness of the death of their souls, and never abandons them.  And for us as Christians, we have special link with a passage in that same chapter of Genesis that seems to bring forth a promise that He will make right Adam's wrong of choosing death, as God was speaking to the serpent (typified for Satan):

Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.


The passages makes no sense to an ancient Hebrew, for woman cannot bear "seed", but only man.  And who is this "seed of woman" that will bruise the head of Satan, the jealous bringer of death?
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« Reply #808 on: November 17, 2013, 04:43:49 PM »

Garuda,  brace yourself.  I hope you have a tough shell:

Quote
If God doesn't do what he wishes than he doesn't trully wish it. Is God confused/conflicted in its own will?

No.  He did exactly what He wished.  He wished that we have a relationship with Him while at the same time He wished that we do so freely.  There's no conflict.  The conflict is not in God, but in us.  If you feel God is confused or conflicted, the answer is no.  He always has a way with dealing in our choices.  Every choice we make away from Him follows by a choice God makes to make it clearer that He is waiting and will never abandon us.  Your philosophical hoops to find fault with God actually shows a beautiful human side in you that you never realized.  You come here and attack God.  That shows that you care.  GASP  Yes, you care enough to come, waste your time online to discuss issues you had trouble with in the past, and you probably still have trouble.  The dilemma is not in God. The dilemma is in you Garuda.  You have not allowed in your heart and in your mind any possibility that God exists, and yet you choose to waste your time attacking a notion of God as if you're mad at Him.  You can deny this all you want, but God knows exactly what He does.  It's you who is confused and conflicted in your will.  You disbelieve in God, and yet you continue to come and post here.

If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects.

Quote
Quote
1. He wills to change something in/for/within us
2. He wills us to have free-will
3. He gets so angry over this he sends those who don't to an eternal hell.

or

4. Predestinated free-will
5. Why then eternal hell?

As an atheist, who are you to attack eternal hell?  What difference does it make in your life if you live in eternal hell or cease to exist after death.  One of the many mysteries of humanity in your warped world is that man lives to die.  Forget about advancements, companionships, having children, leaving a legacy.  In the end, all man, the whole world in fact, lives to die.  It's amazing how after 13 billion years, Earth supported life only to be destroyed after another 13 billion years, that's if a huge asteroid doesn't finish us first before then.

You ask questions about the afterlife even we as Orthodox Christians know NOTHING about.  The best we can tell you is "neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart contemplates".  Furthermore, you live in a hell of your own making.  You gnash your cyber teeth at us with many of your posts here, many of which are in poor taste, which shows how much pity one should have for you.

I was showing off the inconsistencies of Christian theology concerning the attributes of God in points 1-5.

I like all human beings am someone who has been threat with eternal hell. And for the record I was brought up Orthodox Christian.

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I think that if God is omnipotent and he really and trully wants something than that something comes to be/pass/consumation. After all he is the creator he creates creatures the way he wants. What kind of relationships are those with confused/conflicted beings?
The kind that proves He is a merciful, loving, and compassionate God.  It's only through our conflicted and confused selves where we have an appreciation of how much grander the love of God is for us.  Ever hear the saying, "if you don't love me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best"?  That's exactly the type of relationship God has for us.  He loves us at our worst, and even more amazing, He doesn't make us in our best, but even in His best.

I was referring to God as being confused/conflicted in will, according to this theology that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you can be more explicit?

 "If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects.
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This is not something conjugal even if the Bible chooses such a metaphor sometimes. Man and woman are beings of the same level, same constitution, etc. Some prefer to relate in a gay manner. Some men like men and some women like women. There is no universality on this. Yes, a woman can live without a man and a man without a woman as many have and many live differently or even celibate. The question is what is this relationship with God that you keep parroting about? How do you know there is such thing, and what does it entail?

It's a metaphor that best explains the indescribable feeling and joy one has when engaging in this relationship with God.  The relationship entailed from the very beginning that we mature in His glory until a time comes when He actually becomes us that we may become Him.  His plan for us, the peak of His creation, is to be free in His glory, to be glorified in His freedom.  And if we mess up, He is there ready to repair all problems for us.  And yes, there's a great chasm and difference between God and man.  Just as there is a clear difference between man and woman in the conjugal relationship, so God, despite His uncreated and limitless nature, wishes to dwell in us, and we dwell in Him.
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Metaphors should be chosen wisely and make sense. I have one question for you buddy. After the 'Last judgement' will we still have free-will? Do those in heaven still have free-will? Can one who is in heaven still sin? What will happen if he does?

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Than why are some people so religiously unappealing? What happens if some do not want a relationship with God? Why don't they?

The desire is always there, and nothing will be right so long as you resist it.  Look at yourself.  Think at how you post here.  You deride. You're rude.  You're angry.  Obviously, your disbelief in God makes you not a pleasant person.  If you really thought you were fine without God, I would expect a much more mature and kinder soul out of you.  But you're obviously troubled.  So long as you continue to fight and to discuss this, you are actively suppressing a natural desire in you that would be unnatural for you to not succumb to.

I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?
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« Reply #809 on: November 17, 2013, 05:27:42 PM »


I was referring to God as being confused/conflicted in will, according to this theology that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you can be more explicit?

 "If he wishes that people relate to him freely(with free will) than why does He manipulate people to relate to Him in a certain manner(sending invitations, suffering, etc), and is so frustrated of those who don't do that, that He punishes them in an eternal hell. If God was a respector of human free-will he would not punish people for actually using their free-will, on the contrary He would bliss every human choice and make it so that people would be happy because of them(their choices). I thought the reason why people suffer is because God does not like/agree/wish what certain people have chosen. How is this not conflicted? I am interested to see how you reconcile this aspects."
From my small understanding of Christianity, you're imposing your own emotional interpretation onto facts, even after you been told the facts isn't like how you perceive them. That means you're total stuck if you can't see outside of your own experience. Give up, go fishing or something or whatever you like to do for fun and then allow Allah to guide you to the straight path when your brain isn't engaged. You might have more benefit from that happening.

You been told already that in Christianity, God isn't punishing people, you have to take responsibility for your choices in life.
The consequences of me acting in a wrong, un-Islamic, way to another human is that consequences will be a deficit to me. Either in some of my rewards going to that person and that unforgiven action being outstanding on that day when I am judged.

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I am special. I see many materialist people with little or no religion appeal. Some just don't want God or a relationship with God and say so themselves. How do you explain that?

Are they rejecting God or are they rejecting their knowledge and experience of organised religion? There is a difference to that. How can a person reject their sustainer of life, the One who provides the breath in their body and the systems in place on earth by which they live. Even the worst dog would offer some kind of gratitude or recognition of what you did, if you built them a house to live in and gave them a million quid.  And that stuff means nothing, it's just a vehicle in life. How much more when people realise about their All Source and Resource here and for eternity.
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