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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 15349 times) Average Rating: 5
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Poppy
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« Reply #720 on: November 08, 2013, 11:14:09 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Do you have any other relatives that have converted with you?

No, I have a brother who is not yet even close to double digits age wise but that's it as far as family goes.
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« Reply #721 on: November 08, 2013, 11:15:58 AM »

I, for one, am completely close-minded about Islam, and Im completely ok with that.

PP
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« Reply #722 on: November 08, 2013, 11:23:03 AM »

I, for one, am completely close-minded about Islam, and Im completely ok with that.

PP
You mentioned somewhere how some of us are nice in regards to Muslims but with Protestants or RCs we're reacting a different way.  Speaking for myself, I've tried my best to consistently treat anyone who is not orthodox with respect and without insulting their religious beliefs, only engaging in a respectful discussion and debate, especially those who desire to have that respectful discussion.  I may be open or close minded in my beliefs, but that doesn't change how I approach interreligious discussion.
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« Reply #723 on: November 08, 2013, 11:32:20 AM »

I, for one, am completely close-minded about Islam, and Im completely ok with that.

PP
You mentioned somewhere how some of us are nice in regards to Muslims but with Protestants or RCs we're reacting a different way.  Speaking for myself, I've tried my best to consistently treat anyone who is not orthodox with respect and without insulting their religious beliefs, only engaging in a respectful discussion and debate, especially those who desire to have that respectful discussion.  I may be open or close minded in my beliefs, but that doesn't change how I approach interreligious discussion.
Oh, Im not criticizing anyone in particular at all. You're respectful anyways Smiley

Im just commenting on the "no u!" style of arguing and folks trying to do the matrix bullet-dodge about being close-minded. I for one, on this topic have no problem saying Im close minded concerning Islam. I have a very strong opinion on it and I will not change my stance on it. People thinking less of me for being happily close minded wont make me lose a second of sleep on it.

PP
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« Reply #724 on: November 08, 2013, 11:33:07 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina
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« Reply #725 on: November 08, 2013, 12:55:48 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

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You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

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I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.

Then let me offer another alternative that might be a more accessible interpreter of Paul, and Kant for that matter, and who I think most people read in junior high: Kafka.

But again, why?  What do Kafka or Kant or Russell or Hume or Descartes for that matter have to do with anything on this thread, particularly an Orthodox understanding of Paul?  What do they have to do with an Orthodox worldview?  Nothing, or less than nothing?

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I'll ignore your criticisms of my choice of Kant for now as they obviously have no bearing on having read his work but some bio blurb.


Not so.  I have read Kant.  My original criticism of your post stands.  You said that in order to discuss Paul's understanding of the law, we would have to bring Kant into the discussion, something that is clearly not true.  


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And it might surprise you but Kant is little more insightful than your average oc.netter. Or Odox in general.


"Odox in general"?  Then why are you Orthodox?  Kant is "insightful"?  Sure, from within the paradigm in which he was working, unquestionably.  But this is an Orthodox board.  This thread has to do with Islam and the Orthodox response to it, and vice-versa.  The fact that Kant was clearly one of the most important philosophers the West has ever produced has nothing to do with the question at hand.  On the other hand, the fact that his thought is often profoundly alien to the Orthodox worldview is very pertinent.  Why do we "have" to bring in Kant or any other post-medieval Western thinker or writer in order to have a better understanding of Paul from an Orthodox perspective?


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I'll bold the buzz words...

The buzz words are there for a reason.  For one, the fact that Kant was the product of an arch-Protestant environment is relevant because of your condemnation of what you consider to be crypto-Protestant arguments in this discussion.  For another, in many respects the thought of the Enlightenment is foreign to the Orthodox consciousness.  



How is Kant alien to the Odox worldview? What is the Odox worldview? What is a worldview?

By asking these questions, you are simply demonstrating that you are in way over your head.  By saying something like "everyone who has gone to university has read Kant" you call into serious question whether your shadow has ever darkened the door of a university.  In any event, it is quite clear that the "emperor" has no clothes.

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I can play this ridiculous game you all do here.

I think that you meant to use the word "can't" rather than "can" here.  In that case, I agree with you completely.  But you are very good at playing your own game. Having no clue about what might constitute Orthodox phronomena, you often have the temerity and gall to impose your own instead and hijack threads with irrelevant tidbits about British Rail timetables:

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[Here is a critique of] "It all happened on the 11.20 from Hainault to Redhill via Horsham and Reigate, calling at Carshalton Beeches, Malmesbury, Tooting Bec, and Croydon West". The author [of the play] is Mr. Neville Shunt....

   .....Some people have made the mistake of seeing Shunt's work as a load of rubbish about railway timetables,but clever people like me, who talk loudly in restaurants, see this as a deliberate ambiguity, a plea for understanding in a mechanized world. The points are frozen, the beast is dead. What is the difference? What indeed is the point? The point is frozen, the beast is late out of Paddington. The point is taken. If La Fontaine's elk would spurn Tom Jones the engine must be our head, the dining car our oesophagus, the guard's van our left lung, the cattle truck our shins, the first-class compartment the piece of skin at the nape of the neck and the level crossing an electric elk called Simon. The clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? It's over there in a box. Shunt is saying the 8.15 from Gillingham when in reality he means the 8.13 from Gillingham. The train is the same only the time is altered. Ecce homo, ergo elk. La Fontaine knew his sister and knew her [profanity which may offend British ears removed] well. The point is taken, the beast is moulting, the fluff gets up your nose. The illusion is complete; it is reality, the reality is illusion and the ambiguity is the only truth. But is the truth, as Hitchcock observes, in the box? No there isn't room, the ambiguity has put on weight. The point is taken, the elk is dead, the beast stops at Swindon, Chabrol stops at nothing, I'm having treatment and La Fontaine can get knotted.

source: www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode24.htm

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So if you have read Kant, then why do you think he might be important with the Pauline understanding of the law?

Again, I don't think that he's important in an Orthodox context.  In the context of Kant's paradigm, It's very interesting to look at (what some have called) Kant's pseudo-theology in terms of opposing his transcendent "pie in the sky" Christology to the legalism of the Jewish law, etc., etc., and yes, one might even be able to use that a little bit here if one wanted to, but I do not see the need at all.  You said that we have to look at Kant, which is clearly just so much posturing to make you appear erudite and others stupid.  

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This is something you can likely google, I would hope. I don't by into nearly any of the assumptions you have made especially the ones which makes no: being Orthodox and yet thinking Kant has more to say on the Pauline interpretation of the law than oc.netters or most Orthodox. How is that is problem?

Once more, it's a problem because Kant does not understand or in any way relate to Orthodox epistemology and because of your insistence on the necessity of  doing a Kantian reading of Paul, when in an Orthodox context it is not necessary at all.  

« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 01:46:31 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #726 on: November 08, 2013, 01:40:44 PM »

And I think this thread shows the problem when theology and philosophy mix, especially by those not with much background in either.

 How then, exactly, does insisting on the need to do a Kantian analysis of St. Paul fit into this line of reasoning?

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Theology proper doesn't reside in the same the understanding as philosophy. Using philosophical insight, even when properly understood, to make sense of theology is an odd problem which has plagued theology since well the first Church Father though he could do both.

I hope someone else challenges you on these thoughts, because right now I don't have the time.
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« Reply #727 on: November 08, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »

And I think this thread shows the problem when theology and philosophy mix, especially by those not with much background in either.

 How then, exactly, does insisting on the need to do a Kantian analysis of St. Paul fit into this line of reasoning?

Quote
Theology proper doesn't reside in the same the understanding as philosophy. Using philosophical insight, even when properly understood, to make sense of theology is an odd problem which has plagued theology since well the first Church Father though he could do both.

I hope someone else challenges you on these thoughts, because right now I don't have the time.

Hey, at least I got to meet a new member who reads Kant. And I guess missed the announcement about your becoming a moderator, so congrats.

But really who does have time for anything of this?

We should let mina and jeremy get back to doing the good work they were.
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« Reply #728 on: November 08, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »

And I think this thread shows the problem when theology and philosophy mix, especially by those not with much background in either.

 How then, exactly, does insisting on the need to do a Kantian analysis of St. Paul fit into this line of reasoning?

You can't put the cookie back into the tube.

And who is insisting? I know you are sorta new here, but I think you are reading a bit much into my words above. I never mentioned a "Kantian analysis of St. Paul". Perhaps Paul could have been helped by Freudian analysis, I dunno, I haven't ever really thought about it.

But anyway, let's drop this. And welcome and congrats again on your appointment to moderator.
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« Reply #729 on: November 08, 2013, 02:56:15 PM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina


How come other ppl can, for no apparent reason, post Latin and French words and without any translation uh?
I don't understand Latin and I have no idea why it's necessary to suddenly break out into it.

and also what about colloquialisms as well uh? It's like some clique here from what I read, in terms of communication. I have to look up what other people are on about all the time and yet, for some reason, I have to babysit lazyarse people? Why?

Poppy, you know better than to argue with moderatorial directives publicly like this. You've been warned multiple times to use private messages and private messages alone to express your disfavor with moderatorial actions. Seeing that you need another reminder, you are now on Warned status for the next 30 days. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message, and ONLY via private message.

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 04:20:21 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #730 on: November 08, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »

i am translating as a favour to poppy as i like her:
it says:
'in the name of God the compassionate, the merciful;
peace to you (plural) and the mercy and blessings of God'.
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« Reply #731 on: November 08, 2013, 03:37:02 PM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina


How come other ppl can, for no apparent reason, post Latin and French words and without any translation uh?
I don't understand Latin and I have no idea why it's necessary to suddenly break out into it.

and also what about colloquialisms as well uh? It's like some clique here from what I read, in terms of communication. I have to look up what other people are on about all the time and yet, for some reason, I have to babysit lazyarse people? Why?

Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 03:39:36 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #732 on: November 08, 2013, 03:45:53 PM »

I know you are sorta new here....

I have been a member of OC.net since 2004.  I have been a moderator for almost 6 years.

Quote
.... but I think you are reading a bit much into my words above. I never mentioned a "Kantian analysis of St. Paul". Perhaps Paul could have been helped by Freudian analysis, I dunno, I haven't ever really thought about it.

Oh boy.  I really think you should stop writing about this now.  Please.  For your sake.

Quote
But anyway, let's drop this. And welcome and congrats again on your appointment to moderator.


More than happy to stop.  And um, thanks, I guess.
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« Reply #733 on: November 08, 2013, 03:48:49 PM »

I know you are sorta new here....

I have been a member of OC.net since 2004.  I have been a moderator for almost 6 years.

Quote
.... but I think you are reading a bit much into my words above. I never mentioned a "Kantian analysis of St. Paul". Perhaps Paul could have been helped by Freudian analysis, I dunno, I haven't ever really thought about it.

Oh boy.  I really think you should stop writing about this now.  Please.  

Quote
But anyway, let's drop this. And welcome and congrats again on your appointment to moderator.


More than happy to stop.  And um, thanks, I guess.

Really, I've never seen a post from you. Or any moderatorial action. Glad you found the time to talk about my phronema though. You might want to translate that for poppy.
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« Reply #734 on: November 08, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina


How come other ppl can, for no apparent reason, post Latin and French words and without any translation uh?
I don't understand Latin and I have no idea why it's necessary to suddenly break out into it.

and also what about colloquialisms as well uh? It's like some clique here from what I read, in terms of communication. I have to look up what other people are on about all the time and yet, for some reason, I have to babysit lazyarse people? Why?

Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.

Someone used laissez faire, I think. William maybe. Anyway, it is hardly French. But maybe since it didn't originate in Russia or Greece it might not be Odox phronema friendly for Pravoslavbob. You'll have to get the translation from of that term from him as I don't know what it means evidently.
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« Reply #735 on: November 08, 2013, 03:51:55 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

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You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

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I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.

Then let me offer another alternative that might be a more accessible interpreter of Paul, and Kant for that matter, and who I think most people read in junior high: Kafka.

But again, why?  What do Kafka or Kant or Russell or Hume or Descartes for that matter have to do with anything on this thread, particularly an Orthodox understanding of Paul?  What do they have to do with an Orthodox worldview?  Nothing, or less than nothing?

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I'll ignore your criticisms of my choice of Kant for now as they obviously have no bearing on having read his work but some bio blurb.


Not so.  I have read Kant.  My original criticism of your post stands.  You said that in order to discuss Paul's understanding of the law, we would have to bring Kant into the discussion, something that is clearly not true.  


Quote
And it might surprise you but Kant is little more insightful than your average oc.netter. Or Odox in general.


"Odox in general"?  Then why are you Orthodox?  Kant is "insightful"?  Sure, from within the paradigm in which he was working, unquestionably.  But this is an Orthodox board.  This thread has to do with Islam and the Orthodox response to it, and vice-versa.  The fact that Kant was clearly one of the most important philosophers the West has ever produced has nothing to do with the question at hand.  On the other hand, the fact that his thought is often profoundly alien to the Orthodox worldview is very pertinent.  Why do we "have" to bring in Kant or any other post-medieval Western thinker or writer in order to have a better understanding of Paul from an Orthodox perspective?


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I'll bold the buzz words...

The buzz words are there for a reason.  For one, the fact that Kant was the product of an arch-Protestant environment is relevant because of your condemnation of what you consider to be crypto-Protestant arguments in this discussion.  For another, in many respects the thought of the Enlightenment is foreign to the Orthodox consciousness.  



How is Kant alien to the Odox worldview? What is the Odox worldview? What is a worldview?

By asking these questions, you are simply demonstrating that you are in way over your head.  By saying something like "everyone who has gone to university has read Kant" you call into serious question whether your shadow has ever darkened the door of a university.  In any event, it is quite clear that the "emperor" has no clothes.

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I can play this ridiculous game you all do here.

I think that you meant to use the word "can't" rather than "can" here.  In that case, I agree with you completely.  But you are very good at playing your own game. Having no clue about what might constitute Orthodox phronomena, you often have the temerity and gall to impose your own instead and hijack threads with irrelevant tidbits about British Rail timetables:

Quote
[Here is a critique of] "It all happened on the 11.20 from Hainault to Redhill via Horsham and Reigate, calling at Carshalton Beeches, Malmesbury, Tooting Bec, and Croydon West". The author [of the play] is Mr. Neville Shunt....

   .....Some people have made the mistake of seeing Shunt's work as a load of rubbish about railway timetables,but clever people like me, who talk loudly in restaurants, see this as a deliberate ambiguity, a plea for understanding in a mechanized world. The points are frozen, the beast is dead. What is the difference? What indeed is the point? The point is frozen, the beast is late out of Paddington. The point is taken. If La Fontaine's elk would spurn Tom Jones the engine must be our head, the dining car our oesophagus, the guard's van our left lung, the cattle truck our shins, the first-class compartment the piece of skin at the nape of the neck and the level crossing an electric elk called Simon. The clarity is devastating. But where is the ambiguity? It's over there in a box. Shunt is saying the 8.15 from Gillingham when in reality he means the 8.13 from Gillingham. The train is the same only the time is altered. Ecce homo, ergo elk. La Fontaine knew his sister and knew her [profanity which may offend British ears removed] well. The point is taken, the beast is moulting, the fluff gets up your nose. The illusion is complete; it is reality, the reality is illusion and the ambiguity is the only truth. But is the truth, as Hitchcock observes, in the box? No there isn't room, the ambiguity has put on weight. The point is taken, the elk is dead, the beast stops at Swindon, Chabrol stops at nothing, I'm having treatment and La Fontaine can get knotted.

source: www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode24.htm

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So if you have read Kant, then why do you think he might be important with the Pauline understanding of the law?

Again, I don't think that he's important in an Orthodox context.  In the context of Kant's paradigm, It's very interesting to look at (what some have called) Kant's pseudo-theology in terms of opposing his transcendent "pie in the sky" Christology to the legalism of the Jewish law, etc., etc., and yes, one might even be able to use that a little bit here if one wanted to, but I do not see the need at all.  You said that we have to look at Kant, which is clearly just so much posturing to make you appear erudite and others stupid.  

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This is something you can likely google, I would hope. I don't by into nearly any of the assumptions you have made especially the ones which makes no: being Orthodox and yet thinking Kant has more to say on the Pauline interpretation of the law than oc.netters or most Orthodox. How is that is problem?

Once more, it's a problem because Kant does not understand or in any way relate to Orthodox epistemology and because of your insistence on the necessity of  doing a Kantian reading of Paul, when in an Orthodox context it is not necessary at all.  



LOL! I didn't see this. Someone pointed it out to me.

Sorry, it is nicely done.
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« Reply #736 on: November 08, 2013, 03:59:40 PM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
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It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina


How come other ppl can, for no apparent reason, post Latin and French words and without any translation uh?
I don't understand Latin and I have no idea why it's necessary to suddenly break out into it.

and also what about colloquialisms as well uh? It's like some clique here from what I read, in terms of communication. I have to look up what other people are on about all the time and yet, for some reason, I have to babysit lazyarse people? Why?

Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.

Someone used laissez faire, I think. William maybe. Anyway, it is hardly French. But maybe since it didn't originate in Russia or Greece it might not be Odox phronema friendly for Pravoslavbob. You'll have to get the translation from of that term from him as I don't know what it means evidently.

Laissez faire has been adopted in the English language now.  I'd be hard-pressed to find out anyone with a high school education has not at least heard of the phrase.

As for phronema, this has been recently adopted into the English language, although not known by all except those in theological circles.  From what I can gather, as early as in the 1850s, John Newman used the term.  But if someone has trouble knowing what something means, ask!  And if you're writing in a foreign language, don't expect everyone to understand.  How would you like it if two people spoke in a foreign language in front of you?

I know I'm guilty of it at first, but we're getting complaints.  So please, we need to abide by the rules here.  And replying to a green mod post and complaining publicly isn't exactly allowed either, but I ignored that as well.  I really want there to be a good discussion here, and not get sidetracked.
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« Reply #737 on: November 08, 2013, 04:01:01 PM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


Poppy, please translate this.  I know you didn't say anything bad, but just for habit's sake so that no one gets confused or irritated by different languages.

Thank you.

Mina


How come other ppl can, for no apparent reason, post Latin and French words and without any translation uh?
I don't understand Latin and I have no idea why it's necessary to suddenly break out into it.

and also what about colloquialisms as well uh? It's like some clique here from what I read, in terms of communication. I have to look up what other people are on about all the time and yet, for some reason, I have to babysit lazyarse people? Why?

Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.

Someone used laissez faire, I think. William maybe. Anyway, it is hardly French. But maybe since it didn't originate in Russia or Greece it might not be Odox phronema friendly for Pravoslavbob. You'll have to get the translation from of that term from him as I don't know what it means evidently.

Laissez faire has been adopted in the English language now.  I'd be hard-pressed to find out anyone with a high school education has not at least heard of the phrase.

Be careful Bob is going to accuse you of never having gone to high school.
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« Reply #738 on: November 08, 2013, 04:02:49 PM »

How would you like it if two people spoke in a foreign language in front of you?


I know this is supposed to be rhetorical, but I would be relieved.

I hate having to hear people all the time. When I lived places where I couldn't understand a lick of what being said around me, the world was more awesome.

Sorta like opera without the surtitles. Or death metal without the liner notes.
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« Reply #739 on: November 08, 2013, 04:06:24 PM »

And replying to a green mod post and complaining publicly isn't exactly allowed either, but I ignored that as well.  I really want there to be a good discussion here, and not get sidetracked.

Since poppy is genuinely asking questions which are getting buried to do the antics of people like Bob and William. Perhaps we should all agree not respond to any attempts to derail the thread further.

I do. Sorry Poppy.
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« Reply #740 on: November 08, 2013, 04:12:39 PM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?

Since the Saudi King is the protector of Mecca, I would say the latter.  There are many Islamic shrines outside of Saudi Arabia where a woman can go unescorted.  I wouldn't say "politics";  more like "law of the land."
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« Reply #741 on: November 08, 2013, 04:41:10 PM »


Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.

Sorry, I shouldn't have argued with you but for a second I just saw red before green.

It happens, but, Alhmdulillah, (praises to The One True God) I am a lot better and more patient now than I was.
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« Reply #742 on: November 08, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?

Since the Saudi King is the protector of Mecca, I would say the latter.  There are many Islamic shrines outside of Saudi Arabia where a woman can go unescorted.  I wouldn't say "politics";  more like "law of the land."


lol The Saudi authorities destroy Islamic sites and shrines all of the time. Ironic to call them 'protectors'.
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« Reply #743 on: November 08, 2013, 04:52:16 PM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?

Since the Saudi King is the protector of Mecca, I would say the latter.  There are many Islamic shrines outside of Saudi Arabia where a woman can go unescorted.  I wouldn't say "politics";  more like "law of the land."


It's a fiqh (school, mathab) issue. And I would need a fatwa on it (ruling by a scholar)

"Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

"Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is unlawful for a woman who believes in Allah and the last day that she travels the distance of one day and one night without a Mahram accompanying her.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1038)

I do have a exception where it would be allowed (because of being a revert and it being for that specific purpose) and I have thought about that, but I would rather travel with someone just so I don't have to explain as well.
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« Reply #744 on: November 08, 2013, 08:34:28 PM »

Poppy,

Can you please point out where anyone posted something in Latin or French and we did not demand him/her to translate?

And whatever colloquialisms you are not able to understand, you have every right to ask for a translation.  We have to abide by the rules of this forum.  If there's a colloquialism or language not well known, it needs to be translated.

Let's be adults here.  I'm not trying to pick on you.  I'm just asking you to abide by the rules.  I've asked you earlier in this thread to translate whatever you write so that others may understand.

To be fair Mina I said "s'il vous plaît" upthread, but I figured pretty much everyone knows that means "please". I can go back and edit if you'd like.
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« Reply #745 on: November 08, 2013, 08:44:48 PM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?

Since the Saudi King is the protector of Mecca, I would say the latter.  There are many Islamic shrines outside of Saudi Arabia where a woman can go unescorted.  I wouldn't say "politics";  more like "law of the land."


It's a fiqh (school, mathab) issue. And I would need a fatwa on it (ruling by a scholar)

"Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

"Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is unlawful for a woman who believes in Allah and the last day that she travels the distance of one day and one night without a Mahram accompanying her.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1038)

I do have a exception where it would be allowed (because of being a revert and it being for that specific purpose) and I have thought about that, but I would rather travel with someone just so I don't have to explain as well.

Poppy, I lived with Muslims and among Muslims where we didn't speak either English nor Arabic to one another. They never peppered our discussions with Arabic the way I hear English speaking reverts do. They spoke German. Some said Allah, others just said Gott (God).

And they also used translations into English and German of the Koran when talking with me without reciting it the Arabic first. One was an Islamic educator and very serious about his faith, he was paid to teach Islam in the public school system.

English speaking reverts sound like Messianic Jews or Amadeus in this thread.

I really don't get the whole citing the Koran in Arabic, as any Muslim should know, no Koran is written, it is said. So the koran is not a book. It is a saying.

Now they did teach me a little Arabic and helped me with some specific passages of stuff I was reading at the time which was primarily extra-koranic.

In short, I think English-reverts wouldn't seem so odd and have an easier time if they adopted the approach of nearly every Muslim who was born into the faith I met.

Also, they had no hang-ups on my drinking, smoking, swearing, eating pork. And they considered me a friend. Again, they were "conservative" but not maniacs, they left their homelands to find the freedom they could have in Europe.

Just a suggestion.
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« Reply #746 on: November 09, 2013, 11:39:38 AM »

lol The Saudi authorities destroy Islamic sites and shrines all of the time. Ironic to call them 'protectors'.

Any recent examples? 
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« Reply #747 on: November 09, 2013, 02:32:04 PM »

You know, Christians should pray the hours too. It's in the bible.
I just want to make a point about this.

Anytime someone seriously considers the Christian faith then leaves it for something else, we Christians should ask ourselves why that happened.

Instead of blowing off whatever religion it is, in this case Islam, we should turn around and be more like Christ. There are people who see how Christians behave in the world and it can be very ugly, so why should they believe anything we say or do. Like Gandhi said, many of us are unlike the God we supposedly follow.

Maybe we just don't care enough about the salvation of others.

I know it starts with me, I know I need to do better but I'm just saying, we need to take care of our own before trying to tear down someone else's balcony.
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« Reply #748 on: November 09, 2013, 04:36:39 PM »

lol The Saudi authorities destroy Islamic sites and shrines all of the time. Ironic to call them 'protectors'.

Any recent examples? 

Is this recent?
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« Reply #749 on: November 09, 2013, 05:15:21 PM »

You know, Christians should pray the hours too. It's in the bible.
I just want to make a point about this.

Anytime someone seriously considers the Christian faith then leaves it for something else, we Christians should ask ourselves why that happened.

Instead of blowing off whatever religion it is, in this case Islam, we should turn around and be more like Christ. There are people who see how Christians behave in the world and it can be very ugly, so why should they believe anything we say or do. Like Gandhi said, many of us are unlike the God we supposedly follow.

Maybe we just don't care enough about the salvation of others.

I know it starts with me, I know I need to do better but I'm just saying, we need to take care of our own before trying to tear down someone else's balcony.

Just as a qualifier, I didn't mean that as a criticism, even if if does seem like one, I just meant it like, I never even knew that until recently, not because of slack Christians but I was thinking it just wasn't taught any more or something, anyway.

I do get what you're saying and my brothers and sisters in Islam have cited this to me as if it invalidates Christianity in some way but I don't think it does. I mean, I think it's bad when people don't live their religion properly but Muslims are equally guilty of this as well.

Because of the heavy price of sin that Christians are born under, or mortality as someone else put it, and also the weight of that cost lifting, under the act of sacrifice that you teach from a saviour God that places restored relationship in place of religion, kind of, I would expect slackness to be one result from some of Christianity's followers. It's just a consequence of either being too legalistic as some people say, or being too slack (there's another word Fr. Hopko uses but I forgot it).

I never have looked at that and thought that it somehow invalidates Christianity or tarnishes the message.

Jus wanted to express that.
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« Reply #750 on: November 09, 2013, 05:37:58 PM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?

Since the Saudi King is the protector of Mecca, I would say the latter.  There are many Islamic shrines outside of Saudi Arabia where a woman can go unescorted.  I wouldn't say "politics";  more like "law of the land."


It's a fiqh (school, mathab) issue. And I would need a fatwa on it (ruling by a scholar)

"Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

"Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is unlawful for a woman who believes in Allah and the last day that she travels the distance of one day and one night without a Mahram accompanying her.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1038)

I do have a exception where it would be allowed (because of being a revert and it being for that specific purpose) and I have thought about that, but I would rather travel with someone just so I don't have to explain as well.

Poppy, I lived with Muslims and among Muslims where we didn't speak either English nor Arabic to one another. They never peppered our discussions with Arabic the way I hear English speaking reverts do. They spoke German. Some said Allah, others just said Gott (God).

And they also used translations into English and German of the Koran when talking with me without reciting it the Arabic first. One was an Islamic educator and very serious about his faith, he was paid to teach Islam in the public school system.

English speaking reverts sound like Messianic Jews or Amadeus in this thread.

I really don't get the whole citing the Koran in Arabic, as any Muslim should know, no Koran is written, it is said. So the koran is not a book. It is a saying.

Now they did teach me a little Arabic and helped me with some specific passages of stuff I was reading at the time which was primarily extra-koranic.

In short, I think English-reverts wouldn't seem so odd and have an easier time if they adopted the approach of nearly every Muslim who was born into the faith I met.

Also, they had no hang-ups on my drinking, smoking, swearing, eating pork. And they considered me a friend. Again, they were "conservative" but not maniacs, they left their homelands to find the freedom they could have in Europe.

Just a suggestion.

That's been my experience as well with immigrant Muslims. I would add a caveat (warning) though, that in smaller urban areas like mine most of the immigrants are associated with the university here, health care or other professions or businesses.
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« Reply #751 on: November 09, 2013, 05:39:52 PM »

Leave this thread alone.
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« Reply #752 on: November 09, 2013, 06:34:18 PM »

Quote
Because of the heavy price of sin that Christians are born under, or mortality as someone else put it, and also the weight of that cost lifting, under the act of sacrifice that you teach from a saviour God that places restored relationship in place of religion, kind of, I would expect slackness to be one result from some of Christianity's followers. It's just a consequence of either being too legalistic as some people say, or being too slack (there's another word Fr. Hopko uses but I forgot it).
What urgency or need is there to believe in God if it's not to reestablish a broken relationship caused by man?
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« Reply #753 on: November 09, 2013, 07:06:25 PM »

lol The Saudi authorities destroy Islamic sites and shrines all of the time. Ironic to call them 'protectors'.

Any recent examples? 

Is this recent?

Yes, that is.  Thanks for the link.
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« Reply #754 on: November 10, 2013, 05:28:47 PM »

Orthodoxy stopped making sense buddies! Dudes and dudettes.
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« Reply #755 on: November 10, 2013, 05:28:47 PM »

Quote
Because of the heavy price of sin that Christians are born under, or mortality as someone else put it, and also the weight of that cost lifting, under the act of sacrifice that you teach from a saviour God that places restored relationship in place of religion, kind of, I would expect slackness to be one result from some of Christianity's followers. It's just a consequence of either being too legalistic as some people say, or being too slack (there's another word Fr. Hopko uses but I forgot it).
What urgency or need is there to believe in God if it's not to reestablish a broken relationship caused by man?

Slow down buddy! What broken relationship? How do you know it is caused by man? What to reestablish?
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« Reply #756 on: November 11, 2013, 10:14:12 PM »

Well, look at what man does to the world today.  Sure man does great things, but man also does the worst things in this world.  The caveat with man's greatness is man's ability to use greatness in a terrifying manner.  Thus, because man falls short of doing things right in the world, it's also proof of man falling short in doing things right before God.  If God wishes to unite to you, you shun Him away.  If God wishes for you to do something, you do something else.  The relationship God wishes to establish, you destroy.

If there was no relationship broken, no need to fix anything, and God was simply a deity who makes rules to follow, then there's no need to believe in that God, in my opinion.  We can follow rules of morality without God.  God made us because He loves us, and this love means He wants to have an intimate relationship with us, and He wants us to be like Him.  He wants us to inherit His glory, His power, His life, His majesty, His holiness, His blessings.  He wants us to inherit His "99 names."  And He did this best by the incarnation.
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« Reply #757 on: November 15, 2013, 02:33:51 PM »

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Well, look at what man does to the world today.  Sure man does great things, but man also does the worst things in this world.  The caveat with man's greatness is man's ability to use greatness in a terrifying manner.  Thus, because man falls short of doing things right in the world, it's also proof of man falling short in doing things right before God.  If God wishes to unite to you, you shun Him away.  If God wishes for you to do something, you do something else.  The relationship God wishes to establish, you destroy.

If there was no relationship broken, no need to fix anything, and God was simply a deity who makes rules to follow, then there's no need to believe in that God, in my opinion.  We can follow rules of morality without God.  God made us because He loves us, and this love means He wants to have an intimate relationship with us, and He wants us to be like Him.  He wants us to inherit His glory, His power, His life, His majesty, His holiness, His blessings.  He wants us to inherit His "99 names."  And He did this best by the incarnation.

Can God really wish something that doesn't come to pass? Then God is not omnipotent. How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans. What is a broken relationship with God to you, and how do you know such a relationship like an intimate relationship with God really exists? What does an intimate relationship with God entail? How is God, which are the divine qualities? How do I know I really want to be like God, and why would I? How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God? If we take a look at the world, the world is full with negativity. How do we know that that is not the expression of God? Perhaps a certain someone does not like the way God is, and does not want to have a relationship with him, then what? Does that mean that not everybody was made to have an intimate relationship with God?
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« Reply #758 on: November 16, 2013, 01:09:40 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.
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« Reply #759 on: November 16, 2013, 02:08:06 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 02:16:33 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #760 on: November 16, 2013, 02:58:13 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 
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« Reply #761 on: November 16, 2013, 03:04:11 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.

Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.
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« Reply #762 on: November 16, 2013, 03:07:44 PM »

Quote
Well, look at what man does to the world today.  Sure man does great things, but man also does the worst things in this world.  The caveat with man's greatness is man's ability to use greatness in a terrifying manner.  Thus, because man falls short of doing things right in the world, it's also proof of man falling short in doing things right before God.  If God wishes to unite to you, you shun Him away.  If God wishes for you to do something, you do something else.  The relationship God wishes to establish, you destroy.

If there was no relationship broken, no need to fix anything, and God was simply a deity who makes rules to follow, then there's no need to believe in that God, in my opinion.  We can follow rules of morality without God.  God made us because He loves us, and this love means He wants to have an intimate relationship with us, and He wants us to be like Him.  He wants us to inherit His glory, His power, His life, His majesty, His holiness, His blessings.  He wants us to inherit His "99 names."  And He did this best by the incarnation.

Can God really wish something that doesn't come to pass? Then God is not omnipotent. How do you know there is a broken relationship with God? Perhaps this is how God always related with humans. What is a broken relationship with God to you, and how do you know such a relationship like an intimate relationship with God really exists? What does an intimate relationship with God entail? How is God, which are the divine qualities? How do I know I really want to be like God, and why would I? How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God? If we take a look at the world, the world is full with negativity. How do we know that that is not the expression of God? Perhaps a certain someone does not like the way God is, and does not want to have a relationship with him, then what? Does that mean that not everybody was made to have an intimate relationship with God?

You ask, "How do I know I will be happy and satisfied in being like God or having an intimate relationship with God?"  Try, and you will see.

Man is made in the image of God, and thus has free will.  God does not override human will.  God, through Christ, provides the way in which man's will can at last be freed from slavery to sin and death, and given freedom to be oriented in the direction in which God's will is oriented.  Some people take advantage of this offer.  Some do not.  We can name many of those who did.  The Prophets Moses and Elijah are among them, for we know that the light of God shone through them at the Mount of Tabor.  St. Gregory Palamas is another.  The Mother of God, most assuredly, is the highest example of one whose will was in accord with the will of God, and she herself said so.  Now all nations call her blessed.  If you want to see what a right relationship with God looks like, look to these individuals.  Also look to such holy ancients as St. Anthony of the Desert and St. Mary of Egypt.  In more modern times, consider such holy saints as St. Elizabeth (Romanova) the New Martyr of Russia, in whom the light of God shone through even unto the death of their physical body.  Everybody is made (designed, if you will) to have an intimate relationship with God, but we have a choice.  Some people choose to turn away.  If I have a wooden spoon, I can use it all day to try to cut a branch from a tree, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a spoon.  It is made for eating, not cutting down trees.  So, too, with humans.  They are made for one thing but so often they choose to do another.  This is sin, for it draws us away from God.
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« Reply #763 on: November 16, 2013, 03:07:58 PM »

Jewish voice:

Islam teaches the Bible (Torah and Gospel) is corrupted. Do you believe that? If so, where is the evidence? When was the Bible corrupted, and show me where it was corrupted. If not, why are you a Muslim?

Also, what proof is there for the veracity of the Qur'an's immutability when the Qur'an has no evidence apart from it's own claims that it is immutable. The Hadith testify to the Qur'an's corruption and falsification.

Furthermore, what evidence is for the Prophethood of Muhammad apart from him claiming it? The Torah in the Book of Deuteronomy denies Prophets from anywhere except from among the Jews.

The Hadith testify that Muhammad was demon possessed.
Quote from: Sahih al-Bukhari 3175
Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet was bewitched (سُحِرَ) so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.
The Qur'an says any believer is unaffected by black magic.
Quote from: Qur'an 16:99
There is for him (Satan) no authority over those who have believed.

So, according to the Hadith, Muhammad is a non-Muslim kafir. And therefore, clearly not a Prophet of Allah.
Sorry I'm late getting back on here do to work. Jews do not think only prophets come from among Jews. there are many examples of this. Job was not a Jew Balaam was not a Jew Joshua was not a Jew and so on. The Talmud talks about how Allah sends prophets to all the nations to call them to the one true God.

The Talmud is wrong. The Torah says God only sends Prophets among the Israelites.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The Islamic god is not the God of the Torah. The God of the Torah dwells on the earth, the god of Islam is suspended in the sky. You also didn't answer the question, how can a Prophet of God be bewitched by the devil? If God is truly with him, according to Islam, that wouldn't have happened.

Also, I would like you to provide evidence of biblical corruption. Or at least, a definition of biblical corruption.
I clearly should you the Prophets in the old testament as you call it or Torah that are not Jews who are talked about. The verse that you are using you are clearly taken out of context and as well. 15. A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you you shall hearken to him.         טו. נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי יָקִים לְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵלָיו תִּשְׁמָעוּן:
16. According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."         טז. כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר שָׁאַלְתָּ מֵעִם יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּחֹרֵב בְּיוֹם הַקָּהָל לֵאמֹר לֹא אֹסֵף לִשְׁמֹעַ אֶת קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהָי וְאֶת הָאֵשׁ הַגְּדֹלָה הַזֹּאת לֹא אֶרְאֶה עוֹד וְלֹא אָמוּת:
17. And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.         יז. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה אֵלָי הֵיטִיבוּ אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּרוּ:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.         יח. נָבִיא אָקִים לָהֶם מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם כָּמוֹךָ וְנָתַתִּי דְבָרַי בְּפִיו וְדִבֶּר אֲלֵיהֶם אֵת כָּל אֲשֶׁר אֲצַוֶּנּוּ:
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.         יט. וְהָיָה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמַע אֶל דְּבָרַי אֲשֶׁר
See the word" Brother " no where does it say Israeli or Hebrews but" Brother" I don't know where your getting your text from but I would throw that Bible away today.

As the Torah having corruption read the book of Ezra to see he had to rewrite the Torah cause it had been lost and added to and no one even could speak Hebrew at the time of his return to Jerusalem. 

That proves my point. It's  מִקֶּרֶב אֲחֵיהֶם which means literally 'from those near to their brothers', the brothers of the Israelites are Israelites. What's not to understand? This is the NIV, and I know it's a terrible translation but it's the one I went with.

As for the Book of Ezra, all that happened was a recension. The same thing happened in the early Church with various LXX manuscripts and the same with the Masoretic recension.

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Let me guess: this hadith is in Bukhari? A book we Shias don't  trust.

I know, I got the above argument from a Shi'a Hojjatoleslam who claimed that according to Sunni books Muhammad cannot be a prophet which, according to him, is one of the reasons Christians and Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet. And he is 100% correct. Plus, Shi'a have a different philosophy on Hadith than Sunnis. Sunnis just shut down their brains when a Hadith is 'authentic', Shi'a actually take a more critical look at individual narrations.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 03:18:22 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #764 on: November 16, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »

Plus, Shi'a have a different philosophy on Hadith than Sunnis. Sunnis just shut down their brains when a Hadith is 'authentic', Shi'a actually take a more critical look at individual narrations.

What?
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