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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 14983 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #675 on: November 06, 2013, 10:01:52 PM »

Oh that is just beautiful. I didn't even plan that. God bless you, ZZ. You are a queen among alpacas.

Oh, that's a siggy quote!  Grin
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« Reply #676 on: November 06, 2013, 10:20:57 PM »

Poppy, I'm sorry about what happened to your thread. I feel as though I was involved.
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« Reply #677 on: November 06, 2013, 10:32:50 PM »

Don't worry, we'll comb through the forum and compile a MorHadith to follow and argue over.

MorHadith...I like it, but it kinda reminds me of McHadith.  We need Romaios to coin a term, incorporating some form of Mor, from the seven thousand languages he seems to know.  

Irish (a language I do not know) seems to have the most words prefixed with mor- ("great"):

mórmhuir de ghaois = ocean of wisdom (Dalai Lama, eat your heart out!)

mórchlúiteach - of high repute, renowned

mórchumhacht - great power, great authority

mórghníomhach - of mighty deed, redoubtable

mórchroí - big-heartedness, generosity

mórmhaitheas - great goodness, munificence

mórchúramach - exercising great care, great responsibility

mórmheasúil - highly esteemed

mórluaíocht - great merit, great reward, great indulgence

mórintinn - greatness of mind, greatness of purpose, magnanimity

mórfhoclach - magniloquent, high-sounding, oratorical; bombastic, boastful

mórbhéalach - bigmouthed

mórcheannach - big-headed

mórbholgach - big-bellied

mórshách - having a large appetite

mórbhainniúil - abundant in milk (btw, see Song of Songs 4:6, where the two breasts of the Bride are called har ha-mor - "mountain of myrrh" and giveat ha-levona - "hill of frankincense")

mórleabhar - big book, tome

Since you are fond of Italian cuisine, mortadella is a also a beautiful sounding word (for myrtle spiced baloney).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 10:59:30 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #678 on: November 06, 2013, 10:38:29 PM »

I can't believe I got into somebody's sig just a page after posting a cartoon of Hitler being seductively potentially gay. Where am I? This thread is al-bananas.
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« Reply #679 on: November 06, 2013, 10:53:17 PM »

I can't believe I got into somebody's sig just a page after posting a cartoon of Hitler being seductively potentially gay. Where am I? This thread is al-bananas.

Don't fight it.
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« Reply #680 on: November 07, 2013, 12:56:37 AM »

Romaios, thanks for all the hard work.  However...

mórbhéalach - bigmouthed

mórcheannach - big-headed

mórbholgach - big-bellied

mórshách - having a large appetite

...all of these hit close to home.  Tongue  And I'm not sure I like any of them over MorHadith.  Perhaps we shall have to keep it! 

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Since you are fond of Italian cuisine, mortadella is a also a beautiful sounding word (for myrtle spiced baloney).

A beautiful word for a beautiful meat.  When I'm mórshách, a mortadella sandwich is a wonderful thing...enough of those, and I'll be more mórbholgach than usual.  Anyway, thanks to you, I think I know what's for lunch tomorrow even though I have yet to sleep the night away.  Smiley
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« Reply #681 on: November 07, 2013, 01:04:14 AM »

Poppy,

 What initially attracted you towards Islam?  What have you found repelling about Orthodox Christianity? 

Gabriel, I think she answered this quite thoroughly some pages back.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,54606.405.html

She answered here, to be exact.

 Thanks, RehamG!
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« Reply #682 on: November 07, 2013, 03:49:46 AM »

Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.
"Amen! Amen! I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"
"Whom do you seek?
"We seek Jesus of Nazeth"
"I AM."

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The Maghazi and Jihad thing doesn't bother you, and the "Rightly Guided" Caliphs dying in a Civil against other Muslims as Apostates and being murdered by other Muslims.  OK. Roll Eyes

The councils and the changing canon.
Didn't happen.

But the Caliphs killing those with variants in their Quran and burning every copy that did not conform to the state mandated text, that's what Muslims say of their history...
You know all the stuff that I would have read about as  Muslim and been taught concerning Christianity.

But so all of that would have to be reconsidered if I knew that I was wrong about Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام)
If you by Islam's Isa, you are.

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« Reply #683 on: November 07, 2013, 06:39:50 AM »

Poppy, I'm sorry about what happened to your thread. I feel as though I was involved.

No worries. Pretty much all threads tail off into idiocy, which is fine. More so when you have got a insecure idiot on it that has to make everything about thereself eventually.
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« Reply #684 on: November 07, 2013, 08:06:28 AM »

Poppy, I'm sorry about what happened to your thread. I feel as though I was involved.

No worries. Pretty much all threads tail off into idiocy, which is fine. More so when you have got a insecure idiot on it that has to make everything about thereself eventually.
How old were you when started posting on this board?
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« Reply #685 on: November 07, 2013, 12:06:39 PM »

To some degree, I could see why many people may be attracted toward Islam. It really bridges the gap between the strict legalism of Orthodox Judaism and the overt mysticism and transcendent nature of Christianity that often leaves people frustrated. For me, personally, my problem with Christianity is the whole other-wordly emphasis. Quite frankly, I'm sick of being fed seemingly false promises about a future (that may never come) and stupid existential cop-outs for the problems in our world. The problem of suffering really makes no sense from any Abrahamic religion's perspective tbh, but I find Christianity's approach to it the most confusing. I think now that my main criticism with Islam is that like all religions, I don't think I can bring myself to worship a God who didn't become man. I simply see no reason to break my back for some detached authoritarian figure in the sky who does nothing about our suffering and yet expects that I worship Him. The Incarnation personally to me is the ONLY thing that makes God worth worshipping. I don't buy into all those silly "He's greater than us, He deserves worship by default" or "But look at the beauty of the world! He deserves worship!" arguments that many mainstream Christian and Muslim apologists make. I could care less about a God who knows nothing about our condition. If He wants my worship then He has to earn it and come down to my level. And I think that's really the only reason I choose Christianity over other religions, no matter how contradictory, confusing, and difficult it is.

Not so sure about the worship part.
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« Reply #686 on: November 07, 2013, 12:06:39 PM »

This is what I don't get about YiM, if you want to be the earliest follow of Christ, you need to start by rejecting the whole divinity part.

My recollection was that it was the other way around: the earliest heretics were those who couldn't accept that Jesus was human as well as divine. 

Or the original view of Christianity.
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« Reply #687 on: November 07, 2013, 01:07:57 PM »

"Whom do you seek?
"We seek Jesus of Nazeth"
"I AM."

One of my favourite accounts in the Gospels, especially when taking into consideration the response of his hearers. 
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« Reply #688 on: November 07, 2013, 01:23:03 PM »

Don't worry, we'll comb through the forum and compile a MorHadith to follow and argue over.

MorHadith...I like it, but it kinda reminds me of McHadith.  We need Romaios to coin a term, incorporating some form of Mor, from the seven thousand languages he seems to know.  

Irish (a language I do not know) seems to have the most words prefixed with mor- ("great"):

mórmhuir de ghaois = ocean of wisdom (Dalai Lama, eat your heart out!)

Actually, mhuir is sea.
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« Reply #689 on: November 07, 2013, 01:27:56 PM »


The councils and the changing canon.
Didn't happen.

But the Caliphs killing those with variants in their Quran and burning every copy that did not conform to the state mandated text, that's what Muslims say of their history..

Yes. From my Islamic course, I do remember a couple of the prophet's relatives having apparently distinct Qurans from that of Uthman, even after his was compiled.

Also, the Sana'a manuscript shows variations with the modern text.

And wasn't there a Christian that wrote about the collection and burning of variant Qurans even after Uthman?
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« Reply #690 on: November 07, 2013, 01:33:14 PM »

This is what I don't get about YiM, if you want to be the earliest follow of Christ, you need to start by rejecting the whole divinity part.

My recollection was that it was the other way around: the earliest heretics were those who couldn't accept that Jesus was human as well as divine. 

Then your recollection is wrong. I strongly advise reading the Gospels to see what the Church was like from the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry, heck let's pick one, Mark. Show me how many followers of Jesus professed his divinity. Demons, sure. Humans not so much.

And if we end Mark at the earliest accounts without the tacked on ending(s), it's even worse.

That was my point. If you want to be like the earliest follows of Jesus, you are pretty much gonna spend most of your time second guessing him, denying him, arguing with him, etc.

Wait, I guess pretty much everyone except saints are just like the earliest followers of Jesus. Sorry YiM for singling you out.

And if you want to get really clever, the earliest followers of Jesus in the Church didn't even know his name or that he existed, see the OT.
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« Reply #691 on: November 07, 2013, 02:00:32 PM »


The councils and the changing canon.
Didn't happen.

But the Caliphs killing those with variants in their Quran and burning every copy that did not conform to the state mandated text, that's what Muslims say of their history..

Also, the Sana'a manuscript shows variations with the modern text.

As does the all-holy Samarkand manuscript. There are no vowel markings or dots, and the letters are not connected in the same way as today's Arabic is; so it's really hard to compare the Mushaf that Muslims use today with the manuscript.

Modern Arabic Qur'an: Surah al-A'raf 7:86-7





Samarkand Manuscript:
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« Reply #692 on: November 07, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »

Oh God...I take one day off, and I come back to see this thread become...meh...back to this nice post:

There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)



Ok, I'm not going to guess as to why The One True Allah might have did whatever He does do, as we already established that the ways of All Mighty Allah are different to ours, only to say that He gives signs,  He sends Prophets,peace and blessings to them, and He performs miracles.

Allah The Sacred and Mighty, has made people without complete earthly parents before, not just Jesus, peace and blessings to him, so those are the facts.

If God is absolutely inscrutable, then how you can have any belief in God?

This goes to why you believe in God to begin with. That is the advent of revelation which is not necessarily and only rarely something which could be called a cognitive act.

So how does God reveal himself, his ways being not ours, such that those who are entirely other can encounter him in the first place?

I think this is a very serious question.  Earlier Poppy you mentioned Occam's razor, but quite frankly you haven't really defined the purpose of religion.  If you were to follow Occam's Razor based on my purpose of religion, Occam's razor eliminates all other concepts of God in other religions, and maybe even Christianity depending on the Christian denomination's theological beliefs.

On a long drive last night, I was listening to a famous and controversial theologian from our church, Dr. George Bebawi, who said something quite striking, and it causes one more purpose to explore this.  He firmly believes all heresy lies in the foundation of destroying a unity between God and man.  Elsewhere, he would scoff at the idea of Sufi spirituality, saying something profound: "It is not a true relationship with someone if you know about someone."  Ask yourself this.  You've heard of how great a man Jesus was.  Do you know him like you know your own friends?  Or do you know of him?

The question then extends to God.  Do we know of God, or do we know God?  The mystery of the Trinity that seems to be misunderstood by Muslims is precisely this slight difference.  You mention how you loved Islam because of its simplicity.  But if Allah becomes so simply understood, don't you think he no longer becomes God, but a figment of man's comfortable imagination of what they want God to be?  In that case, if all religions do is proclaim the 99 characteristics of a deity, then Occam's razor can be very frighteningly applied to your own beliefs as well.  All Muslims (and a lot of Christians) would end up doing is turn their religion into an intellectual exercise, not a relationship with something REAL, and Occam's razor destroys all of that.

So now back to the question of the Virgin birth, why does God do miracles?  If only Allah knows, then that means there's no need for me to know anything at all of Allah's purpose, and worst yet, there's no need for me to know Allah to begin with.  If Allah performs miracles only to prove He is Allah, then that only seems to me making Allah look like a grand magician.  He performs His magic on Jesus so that others may believe in Allah.  OR...OR...quite possibly, Allah in His infinite wisdom, alluded to Jesus in the same way as He alluded to Adam and Eve, a new progenitor of a new human race...just maybe, this is the purpose of Allah's miracle.  And if there's purpose to His miracles, it just makes Allah that more beautiful.  It makes Him no longer a Magician, but a "Logos", a Principled and All-Wise God.
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« Reply #693 on: November 07, 2013, 05:09:47 PM »


How can one being ever stand outside of itself.
Ketamine  Tongue laugh

But in all seriousness:

Existence itself leads arguably to a Trinitarian understanding of God. I think you need to think a little more about what existence means and how a monadic God could exist before anything else.

That to me is the trouble with the Islamic understanding of God. Some Islamic philosophy has attempted to deal with the problem, foreshadowing some 20th century insights into ontology centuries earlier.

Expand, s'il vous plaît?

In few words?

Existence means to stand outside, thus suggesting an already transcendent structure to it.

How can one being ever stand outside of itself. The ex is more than outside it has IMHO a more directional aspect. So it is more a standing out towards. Towards what if nothing else exists?

One could argue that a diad could solve this problem, but as I said arguably and this is quick and "straight forward" which is the end of thinking frankly.

One could argue God doesn't exist as such and avoid the problem in that manner. Which is what Muslims and Orthodox ends doing at times.

Hope that is helpful.

I'm digesting this over and over again...and I think I know what you're getting at, but I was wondering if perhaps you can expand a bit further...

...actually never mind...I think I finally get it Smiley
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« Reply #694 on: November 07, 2013, 05:22:46 PM »

mórmhuir de ghaois = ocean of wisdom (Dalai Lama, eat your heart out!)

Actually, mhuir is sea.

And mór is "great"...

But, indeed, ocean is aigéan.
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« Reply #695 on: November 07, 2013, 05:44:57 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?
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« Reply #696 on: November 07, 2013, 06:24:02 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was. I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

I am not sure what.

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« Reply #697 on: November 07, 2013, 06:37:40 PM »

Have you read St. Athanasius' the Great on the Incarnation? Or other good Christian books/writings/references on the Incarnation?

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« Reply #698 on: November 07, 2013, 11:26:08 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

Quote
You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

Quote
I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.
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« Reply #699 on: November 07, 2013, 11:34:09 PM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

Quote
You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

Quote
I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.

Then let me offer another alternative that might be a more accessible interpreter of Paul, and Kant for that matter, and who I think most people read in junior high: Kafka.

I'll ignore your criticisms of my choice of Kant for now as they obviously have no bearing on having read his work but some bio blurb. And it might surprise you but Kant is little more insightful than your average oc.netter. Or Odox in general.

I'll bold he buzz words and leave with Kafka.
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« Reply #700 on: November 07, 2013, 11:47:20 PM »

Orthonorm- are you Orthodox? Just curious.
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« Reply #701 on: November 07, 2013, 11:54:28 PM »

Orthonorm- are you Orthodox? Just curious.

I was Chrismated Odox within the OCA. There are threads about it. My participation in the parish became complicated by some health issues which created more complications.

It is frankly a very unhappy subject in the particulars thus I would prefer not to go into them.
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« Reply #702 on: November 08, 2013, 12:41:41 AM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

Quote
You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

Quote
I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.

Then let me offer another alternative that might be a more accessible interpreter of Paul, and Kant for that matter, and who I think most people read in junior high: Kafka.

But again, why?  What do Kafka or Kant or Russell or Hume or Descartes for that matter have to do with anything on this thread, particularly an Orthodox understanding of Paul?  What do they have to do with an Orthodox worldview?  Nothing, or less than nothing?

Quote
I'll ignore your criticisms of my choice of Kant for now as they obviously have no bearing on having read his work but some bio blurb.


Not so.  I have read Kant.  My original criticism of your post stands.  You said that in order to discuss Paul's understanding of the law, we would have to bring Kant into the discussion, something that is clearly not true.  


Quote
And it might surprise you but Kant is little more insightful than your average oc.netter. Or Odox in general.


"Odox in general"?  Then why are you Orthodox?  Kant is "insightful"?  Sure, from within the paradigm in which he was working, unquestionably.  But this is an Orthodox board.  This thread has to do with Islam and the Orthodox response to it, and vice-versa.  The fact that Kant was clearly one of the most important philosophers the West has ever produced has nothing to do with the question at hand.  On the other hand, the fact that his thought is often profoundly alien to the Orthodox worldview is very pertinent.  Why do we "have" to bring in Kant or any other post-medieval Western thinker or writer in order to have a better understanding of Paul from an Orthodox perspective?


Quote
I'll bold the buzz words...

The buzz words are there for a reason.  For one, the fact that Kant was the product of an arch-Protestant environment is relevant because of your condemnation of what you consider to be crypto-Protestant arguments in this discussion.  For another, in many respects the thought of the Enlightenment is foreign to the Orthodox consciousness.  

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« Reply #703 on: November 08, 2013, 08:18:15 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...
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« Reply #704 on: November 08, 2013, 09:05:35 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.
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« Reply #705 on: November 08, 2013, 09:08:49 AM »

Now, if someone wants to discuss a Pauline approach to the role of the law in a serious fashion, fine, but we are going to have to get into Kant and most just can't.

Why on earth would one have to do a Kantian reading of Paul in order to appreciate or discuss his view of the law?   Most can't, because they are/were not philosophy majors like you.  So what?

You need to read Kant to understand that, but I think most people with some time at University would have some understanding of the intersection between the Pauline beginning of the radical rethinking of the law and Kant's arguable most clearly articulated fulfillment of Paul's understanding. Not sure what people learn at University or with a library card.

I can assure you that there are multitudes of university graduates in the world today (including those who majored in the arts and the social sciences) who have no idea whatsoever about Kant's theories concerning Paul and his writings.

Quote
You don't have to be a philosophy major to read Kant. I don't think I was.

You don't "think" you were?  Man, what a long, strange trip it's been.

Quote
I read almost no Kant at University. And I am no Kant expert or even lay enthusiast. Just like I don't have to be a physics major to understand that Einstein had something to say about nature of light. We are in the realm of general knowledge.

Well then, I will rephrase my original question.  Why, on an Orthodox Christian board, should anyone care about what an eighteenth-century Prussian agnostic deist (of Pietist extraction) had to say about Paul's understanding of the law?  It seems to me particularly ironic that you are advocating for Kant (in heritage an arch-Protestant product of the Enlightenment if ever there was one!) when you have chastised other posters in this thread for their "crypto-Protestant" critiques of Islam.

Then let me offer another alternative that might be a more accessible interpreter of Paul, and Kant for that matter, and who I think most people read in junior high: Kafka.

But again, why?  What do Kafka or Kant or Russell or Hume or Descartes for that matter have to do with anything on this thread, particularly an Orthodox understanding of Paul?  What do they have to do with an Orthodox worldview?  Nothing, or less than nothing?

Quote
I'll ignore your criticisms of my choice of Kant for now as they obviously have no bearing on having read his work but some bio blurb.


Not so.  I have read Kant.  My original criticism of your post stands.  You said that in order to discuss Paul's understanding of the law, we would have to bring Kant into the discussion, something that is clearly not true.  


Quote
And it might surprise you but Kant is little more insightful than your average oc.netter. Or Odox in general.


"Odox in general"?  Then why are you Orthodox?  Kant is "insightful"?  Sure, from within the paradigm in which he was working, unquestionably.  But this is an Orthodox board.  This thread has to do with Islam and the Orthodox response to it, and vice-versa.  The fact that Kant was clearly one of the most important philosophers the West has ever produced has nothing to do with the question at hand.  On the other hand, the fact that his thought is often profoundly alien to the Orthodox worldview is very pertinent.  Why do we "have" to bring in Kant or any other post-medieval Western thinker or writer in order to have a better understanding of Paul from an Orthodox perspective?


Quote
I'll bold the buzz words...

The buzz words are there for a reason.  For one, the fact that Kant was the product of an arch-Protestant environment is relevant because of your condemnation of what you consider to be crypto-Protestant arguments in this discussion.  For another, in many respects the thought of the Enlightenment is foreign to the Orthodox consciousness.  



How is Kant alien to the Odox worldview? What is the Odox worldview? What is a worldview?

I can play this ridiculous game you all do here.

So if you have read Kant, then why do you think he might be important with the Pauline understanding of the law?

This is something you can likely google, I would hope. I don't by into nearly any of the assumptions you have made especially the ones which makes no: being Orthodox and yet thinking Kant has more to say on the Pauline interpretation of the law than oc.netters or most Orthodox. How is that is problem?

The above are all rhetorical. You think something like biography is informative and guiding when reading a writer, we are not going to agree on much then.
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« Reply #706 on: November 08, 2013, 09:12:53 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca?  When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  I got this from their website:
Quote
The following are the six articles of faith in Islam. These are the basic beliefs that one must have in order to be considered a true Muslim. They are:

1.Belief in God Almighty; that he is the Creator, Sustainer, and the only one that controls and holds dominion over all of creation. Belief in Him requires recognizing that because of the previous He Almighty is the only one worthy of our devotion, supplications, and worship.
2.Belief in all the Prophets of God; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All), as well as those not mentioned. We believe in all of them, recognize their mission, and follow them in their message.
3.Belief in the original scriptures revealed by God Almighty to his Prophets; the Torah having been given to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and the Quran given to Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All). All of these scriptures are recognized by Muslims as revelation. The Quran, God’s Almighty's final revelation is a culmination of message of the previous scriptures; it is a standard by which we live by containing eternal guidance for the salvation of Mankind.
4.Belief in the angels; that they are the unseen servants of God Almighty's, implementing his will and watching over mankind.
5.Belief in the Day of Judgment and the Hereafter; that all of mankind will be called to account for their deeds, and be righteously judged accordingly on the last day.
6.Belief in Divine design and decree; that God Almighty's has knowledge of all things, has written all things, and all things he has willed must come to pass.

http://www.icnef.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=89

Are these in line with what you believe?  
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« Reply #707 on: November 08, 2013, 09:24:20 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

rule 1: start a thread to defend and praise Christianity on an Islamic forum and wait to be banned by the time you write your second post.

rule 2: start a thread to criticize Islam on an Islamic forum and wait for death threats.

 Grin  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:24:50 AM by Theophilos78 » Logged

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« Reply #708 on: November 08, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

rule 1: start a thread to defend and praise Christianity on an Islamic forum and wait to be banned by the time you write your second post.

rule 2: start a thread to criticize Islam on an Islamic forum and wait for death threats.

 Grin  Roll Eyes

Well, I go to a Muslim forum (ShiaChat) where people criticize Islam, and I see no death threats, but I can't speak for other Muslim forums.
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« Reply #709 on: November 08, 2013, 09:42:46 AM »


Well, I go to a Muslim forum (ShiaChat) where people criticize Islam, and I see no death threats, but I can't speak for other Muslim forums.

Lucky you!  Smiley
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« Reply #710 on: November 08, 2013, 10:22:48 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


They are not 'misunderstandings' about Islam. If they were 'misunderstandings' you should be able to make us understand what we are misunderstanding. No matter how much evidence we provide, closing off the mind is always the option that Muslims choose.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 10:32:44 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #711 on: November 08, 2013, 10:31:53 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca?  When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  I got this from their website:
Quote
The following are the six articles of faith in Islam. These are the basic beliefs that one must have in order to be considered a true Muslim. They are:

1.Belief in God Almighty; that he is the Creator, Sustainer, and the only one that controls and holds dominion over all of creation. Belief in Him requires recognizing that because of the previous He Almighty is the only one worthy of our devotion, supplications, and worship.
2.Belief in all the Prophets of God; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All), as well as those not mentioned. We believe in all of them, recognize their mission, and follow them in their message.
3.Belief in the original scriptures revealed by God Almighty to his Prophets; the Torah having been given to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and the Quran given to Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All). All of these scriptures are recognized by Muslims as revelation. The Quran, God’s Almighty's final revelation is a culmination of message of the previous scriptures; it is a standard by which we live by containing eternal guidance for the salvation of Mankind.
4.Belief in the angels; that they are the unseen servants of God Almighty's, implementing his will and watching over mankind.
5.Belief in the Day of Judgment and the Hereafter; that all of mankind will be called to account for their deeds, and be righteously judged accordingly on the last day.
6.Belief in Divine design and decree; that God Almighty's has knowledge of all things, has written all things, and all things he has willed must come to pass.

http://www.icnef.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=89

Are these in line with what you believe?  

All Muslims believe in the six articles of faith. But 3/4 are in dispute, because to Muslims, the 'original scriptures' of Jesus, David, Abraham (sic) and Moses were corrupted by the Jews and Christians. Of course, there is no evidence apart from 1 John 5:7-8 to substantiate that claim. The Church simply edited and improvised on obscure passages, or made scribal errors. Not to mention it's a claim, that is never explained. What is meant by 'corrupted' to Muslims? Any slight variations in words? Missing vowels? If so, the Qur'an is also corrupted as evidenced by the Samarkand, and Sana'a manuscripts.

Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with. Here's a video of Shia scholars reciting a verse that they believed to have been in the Qur'an originally, but the Sunnis corrupted it. Something about "O Fatimah, Allah has prepared you, cleansed you, over all the women of the Universe..."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 10:40:50 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #712 on: November 08, 2013, 10:40:22 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca?  When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  I got this from their website:
Quote
The following are the six articles of faith in Islam. These are the basic beliefs that one must have in order to be considered a true Muslim. They are:

1.Belief in God Almighty; that he is the Creator, Sustainer, and the only one that controls and holds dominion over all of creation. Belief in Him requires recognizing that because of the previous He Almighty is the only one worthy of our devotion, supplications, and worship.
2.Belief in all the Prophets of God; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All), as well as those not mentioned. We believe in all of them, recognize their mission, and follow them in their message.
3.Belief in the original scriptures revealed by God Almighty to his Prophets; the Torah having been given to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and the Quran given to Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All). All of these scriptures are recognized by Muslims as revelation. The Quran, God’s Almighty's final revelation is a culmination of message of the previous scriptures; it is a standard by which we live by containing eternal guidance for the salvation of Mankind.
4.Belief in the angels; that they are the unseen servants of God Almighty's, implementing his will and watching over mankind.
5.Belief in the Day of Judgment and the Hereafter; that all of mankind will be called to account for their deeds, and be righteously judged accordingly on the last day.
6.Belief in Divine design and decree; that God Almighty's has knowledge of all things, has written all things, and all things he has willed must come to pass.

http://www.icnef.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=89

Are these in line with what you believe?   

All Muslims believe in the six articles of faith. But 3/4 are in dispute, because to Muslims, the 'original scriptures' of Jesus, David, Abraham (sic) and Moses were corrupted by the Jews and Christians. Of course, there is no evidence apart from 1 John 5:7-8 to substantiate that claim. The Church simply edited and improvised on obscure passages, or made scribal errors. Not to mention it's a claim, that is never explained. What is meant by 'corrupted' to Muslims? Any slight variations in words? Missing vowels? If so, the Qur'an is also corrupted as evidenced by the Samarkand, and Sana'a manuscripts.

Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with.

Only a minority of Shia scholars say that the Qur'an was corrupted.
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« Reply #713 on: November 08, 2013, 10:42:57 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca?  When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  I got this from their website:
Quote
The following are the six articles of faith in Islam. These are the basic beliefs that one must have in order to be considered a true Muslim. They are:

1.Belief in God Almighty; that he is the Creator, Sustainer, and the only one that controls and holds dominion over all of creation. Belief in Him requires recognizing that because of the previous He Almighty is the only one worthy of our devotion, supplications, and worship.
2.Belief in all the Prophets of God; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All), as well as those not mentioned. We believe in all of them, recognize their mission, and follow them in their message.
3.Belief in the original scriptures revealed by God Almighty to his Prophets; the Torah having been given to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and the Quran given to Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All). All of these scriptures are recognized by Muslims as revelation. The Quran, God’s Almighty's final revelation is a culmination of message of the previous scriptures; it is a standard by which we live by containing eternal guidance for the salvation of Mankind.
4.Belief in the angels; that they are the unseen servants of God Almighty's, implementing his will and watching over mankind.
5.Belief in the Day of Judgment and the Hereafter; that all of mankind will be called to account for their deeds, and be righteously judged accordingly on the last day.
6.Belief in Divine design and decree; that God Almighty's has knowledge of all things, has written all things, and all things he has willed must come to pass.

http://www.icnef.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=89

Are these in line with what you believe?   

All Muslims believe in the six articles of faith. But 3/4 are in dispute, because to Muslims, the 'original scriptures' of Jesus, David, Abraham (sic) and Moses were corrupted by the Jews and Christians. Of course, there is no evidence apart from 1 John 5:7-8 to substantiate that claim. The Church simply edited and improvised on obscure passages, or made scribal errors. Not to mention it's a claim, that is never explained. What is meant by 'corrupted' to Muslims? Any slight variations in words? Missing vowels? If so, the Qur'an is also corrupted as evidenced by the Samarkand, and Sana'a manuscripts.

Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with.

Only a minority of Shia scholars say that the Qur'an was corrupted.

Sorry, I was still editing the comment.

Quote from: Ibid.
Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with. Here's a video of Shia scholars reciting a verse that they believed to have been in the Qur'an originally, but the Sunnis corrupted it. Something about "O Fatimah, Allah has prepared you, cleansed you, over all the women of the Universe..."
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« Reply #714 on: November 08, 2013, 10:44:14 AM »

Good grief, this thread grows too fast to keep up and have a job.
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« Reply #715 on: November 08, 2013, 10:55:28 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca?  When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  I got this from their website:
Quote
The following are the six articles of faith in Islam. These are the basic beliefs that one must have in order to be considered a true Muslim. They are:

1.Belief in God Almighty; that he is the Creator, Sustainer, and the only one that controls and holds dominion over all of creation. Belief in Him requires recognizing that because of the previous He Almighty is the only one worthy of our devotion, supplications, and worship.
2.Belief in all the Prophets of God; Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All), as well as those not mentioned. We believe in all of them, recognize their mission, and follow them in their message.
3.Belief in the original scriptures revealed by God Almighty to his Prophets; the Torah having been given to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and the Quran given to Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Them All). All of these scriptures are recognized by Muslims as revelation. The Quran, God’s Almighty's final revelation is a culmination of message of the previous scriptures; it is a standard by which we live by containing eternal guidance for the salvation of Mankind.
4.Belief in the angels; that they are the unseen servants of God Almighty's, implementing his will and watching over mankind.
5.Belief in the Day of Judgment and the Hereafter; that all of mankind will be called to account for their deeds, and be righteously judged accordingly on the last day.
6.Belief in Divine design and decree; that God Almighty's has knowledge of all things, has written all things, and all things he has willed must come to pass.

http://www.icnef.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=89

Are these in line with what you believe?   

All Muslims believe in the six articles of faith. But 3/4 are in dispute, because to Muslims, the 'original scriptures' of Jesus, David, Abraham (sic) and Moses were corrupted by the Jews and Christians. Of course, there is no evidence apart from 1 John 5:7-8 to substantiate that claim. The Church simply edited and improvised on obscure passages, or made scribal errors. Not to mention it's a claim, that is never explained. What is meant by 'corrupted' to Muslims? Any slight variations in words? Missing vowels? If so, the Qur'an is also corrupted as evidenced by the Samarkand, and Sana'a manuscripts.

Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with.

Only a minority of Shia scholars say that the Qur'an was corrupted.

Sorry, I was still editing the comment.

Quote from: Ibid.
Of course, Shia claim that the Sunnis corrupted the Qur'an the same way the Jews and Christians 'corrupted' their books, which I tend to agree with. Here's a video of Shia scholars reciting a verse that they believed to have been in the Qur'an originally, but the Sunnis corrupted it. Something about "O Fatimah, Allah has prepared you, cleansed you, over all the women of the Universe..."

Well, anyways, Shias are more open to discuss the Qur'an than Sunnis.
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« Reply #716 on: November 08, 2013, 10:58:34 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).
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« Reply #717 on: November 08, 2013, 11:04:36 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Do you have any other relatives that have converted with you?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 11:04:51 AM by hecma925 » Logged

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« Reply #718 on: November 08, 2013, 11:10:08 AM »

Poppy, when do you plan on making pilgrimage?  Does your mosque /masjid organize the journeys to Mecca? When I lived in Jacksonville, FL, the Islamic Center (Sunni) there did (for Muslims, of course Smiley)  

I do plan to go, yeah and the masjid does help with some stuff. I can't go yet though as I need to travel with a mahram (brother or dad or another family bloke).

Because of Islam or because of Saudi politics?
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« Reply #719 on: November 08, 2013, 11:11:12 AM »

Rule: open a thread about Islam, and wait for all kind of insults in the world toward this religion...

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

It's been equal thirds on this thread. One third of people have been great, just discussing as normal. The insults from usual good posters have been about ignorance and misunderstandings of Islam and the other third has just been idiots, who insult their own religion daily as well probably.


They are not 'misunderstandings' about Islam. If they were 'misunderstandings' you should be able to make us understand what we are misunderstanding. No matter how much evidence we provide, closing off the mind is always the option that Muslims choose.

1. I am not closed minded, far from it.
2.You're the worst, because you make a huge big fanfare about what you know, when in fact it's very little. It's like you been reading the worst kind of rubbish sensationalist anti-muslim websites, and then expect people to take you serious, omdays.

3. It's not my job to make you understand anything, it's my job to answer your original questions that's if you have any, and to present you with the answer or my answer. If you don't like the answer, then it's not my problem.

If I don't understand or disagree with a answer that I am given, regarding Christianity, then it will provoke a few more questions from me, to that person who gave it. I don't usually attack the answer or the person (unless they're tragic), I'm not usually sarcastic about the answers given to me, I just accept them as the answer that was given and think about how I can understand it.

I'm not the one who is closed minded.
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