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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 15003 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #450 on: November 05, 2013, 12:55:44 AM »

I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

Quote from: Galatians 1:10
Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people?

Curious, why NRSx?

Hazard: I happen to own - and seldom read - that edition; Poppy happens to be British.
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« Reply #451 on: November 05, 2013, 01:01:49 AM »

I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.

Quote from: Galatians 1:10
Am I now seeking human approval, or God’s approval? Or am I trying to please people?

Curious, why NRSx?

Hazard: I happen to own - and seldom read - that edition; Poppy happens to be British.

There is much to praise in that translation into English, the gender neutral stuff really made it a wreck however. This verse being a moderate abuse of the language.

This translation into English might be more apropos this thread:

Quote
Galatians 1:10
Names of God Bible (NOG)
10 Am I saying this now to win the approval of people or God? Am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:10&version=NOG
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« Reply #452 on: November 05, 2013, 01:08:13 AM »

Thank you for that...

Concerning the verse "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."  If anything, it's because of this verse that I believe in the Trinity.  What if denying Christ as God is wrong, and what if I'm wrong about NOT believing in Christ?  I'm humbled by this verse that I first of all know nothing.  Allow me to share with you my undergraduate struggle and why I decided to keep my Christian faith despite having been exposed to atheists, Muslims, and Hindus debating with me.

I am humbled by the fact that neither an angel, nor an archangel, nor a prophet, nor a patriarch, nor a warrior nor a mere "divine" being of which I share the same nature was sent to bring salvation to mankind's depravity of life, but it was God Himself, taking flesh.

Why is the flesh important?  Is not morality important?  Yes, it is important.  But if morality is important, what's the point of God?  Can we not be moral atheists?  There's also no point in God if I am of the same substance as God.  I'm just as moral without God if I am part of God anyway.  No, what then am I to do with belief in God if all God ever does is dictate what I should do or how I should act?  I appreciate God's laws and disciplines, but as the Scriptures say,

"16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
    you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
    a broken and contrite heart
    you, God, will not despise." (Psalm 51)

But, a God who comes, unites His eternal nature with my wretched nature in an indescribable fashion, so that I may possess His very own eternal life and have a most intimate relationship with Him, beyond moral laws or rules, brings with it an unfathomable humility and peace to me.  It makes me say "Subhana wa Ta'ala" to the glory of Him who came and allowed me to inherit the things that belong to eternity.

"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom".  I fear that I may not have a full relationship with God if I deny His incarnation.  If being "Messiah" just meant being another prophet, then religion means nothing to me, and I would agree with my atheist friends, a God who is of the same nature as me or a God who cannot have an intimate unity with me are examples of a deity that makes no difference whether He exists or not.  I would rather be a moral atheist than believe in those versions of God.  But a God who does have intimate communion, and furthermore came down as a human so that I may be comprehend His divine ways and be united with His divine nature is a God who truly is worth believing, and who in fact destroys all vanity in atheism.  I therefore believe Christ when He says, "I am THE way, THE truth THE life," because I found all other ways, lives, and truths vain.

Perhaps this is why I felt so hmm har, not just about Islam, but about all other religions, except Christianity.
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« Reply #453 on: November 05, 2013, 01:18:28 AM »

This translation into English might be more apropos this thread:

Quote
Galatians 1:10
Names of God Bible (NOG)

Am I saying this now to win the approval of people or God? Am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.

Hmm, the difference is indeed significant...
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« Reply #454 on: November 05, 2013, 01:23:40 AM »

This translation into English might be more apropos this thread:

Quote
Galatians 1:10
Names of God Bible (NOG)

Am I saying this now to win the approval of people or God? Am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.

Hmm, the difference is indeed significant...


Did I get my threads mixed up?

Here is the raison d'etre for that version:

Quote
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) accurately translates the meaning of the original texts into clear, everyday language. While most translations obscure the names and titles of God by replacing them with just a few English words such as God, Lord, or LORD, The Names of God Bible restores the transliterations of ancient names—such as Yahweh, El Shadday, El Elyon, and Adonay—to help the reader better understand the rich meaning of God’s names that are found in the original Hebrew and Aramaic text.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Names-of-God-NOG-Bible/
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« Reply #455 on: November 05, 2013, 01:33:15 AM »

Did I get my threads mixed up?

Could be...

I'm sure Tanrı'nın sevgilisi would appreciate quotes from that version of the OT. But it's the NT I quoted and all versions seem to agree on rendering Theos as "God".
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« Reply #456 on: November 05, 2013, 03:59:36 AM »


Shias are not considered even Muslims


By radical Sunnis, you're right.  Hence why some find it so easy to regularly blow up their masjids and markets packed full of men, women, and children [I'm not talking about politics, balance of power issues, but the systematic murder of Shia--many of whom are defenseless and pose no political, military, or economic threat to others--by extremist Sunnis].  Many Sunni Muslims, despite what you're head-honcho says, absolutely consider them Muslims.  They may disagree with their views and traditions, even strongly, but they view them as Muslim. Sorry for this inconvenient and perhaps unexpected diversity of thought within your sect.

And having followed your explanations of "catechism" on here, that's the path you're on: radical Sunni Islam (not blowing folk up). 

My guess is that's what you wanted though, no equivocating, no "hmm harring", if you will.  You've likely got an Imaam who will give you the "straight dope" without cutting it with statements of uncertainty and vacillation.  I respect that and occasionally yearn for those proclamations of inerrant truth and guidance myself.  I know several Imaams who would be teaching you Islam in a very different way--in my opinion, more responsibly--but I don't think you'd be interested in that approach.

I'm glad you brought up the main point of contention though, which I've heard from many many Muslims I know, and that's the issue of Christ's divinity.  How could a man be divine?  It's truly inconceivable for many highly intelligent, spiritually focused Muslims to think that God would become human.  While I'm not a strong Xtian apologist, I do naturally ask the question--regardless of my own struggles with belief--why couldn't God become man?  Islam regularly talks of God as being all powerful, yet somehow He's not powerful enough to become man, if He wished.  It's not high theology by any means, but it works for me.  I never feel comfortable with a system that says "God couldn't have _______."  I find it off, and a tad disturbing to place constraints such as this on God's activities, what he can and can't do.

On a lighter note, this kind of reminds me of some Sunni folks I've known who assured me that Christ's nativity narrative in Christian scripture is demonstrably false, because mistletoe doesn't even grow in the holy land.  Aside from the fact that it does, I found it amusing that they person found that "evidence" so persuasive.  Like there's not a whole lot of significantly stranger stuff that Xtians have to end up believing.  Nope, it's the mistletoe hoax that debunked it all.

I'm trusting you're a bit smarter than that, Poppy, and that your Imaam is a bit more nuanced in his arguments.  At the same time, when I saw you refer to Constantine, alarms went off in my head.  This is yet another canard that gets tossed around not only in Evangelical Xtian circles, but also frequently in the radical Muslim convert communities.  Don't get me wrong, it's a very helpful narrative, almost certainly with bits of truth thrown in along the way, but that's really all it is.  I can't remember the name of the Dan Brownesque adventure novels circulating in the Arabic world, but those are funny.  Oh, and the glory of the oh so wonderful and Muslim Ottoman Empire, the only just and righteous empire to exist, unless of course you count the early Caliphates.  Pretty standard stuff here. 

Ending my rambling, my point is that you have already witnessed some bad Xtian apologetics regarding why Islam is bad, Xtianity is good, etc.  But after all of the investigation you've done, you can't be satisfied with your arguments either.  Whether you are able to believe or not is a different question entirely, but why couldn't God have become man?  And your idea of uniformity within Islam (once you've thrown out the Sufis, Shia, and anyone else your Imaam and that community tells you isn't legit), you'll still be stuck with a great amount of inconsistencies, shady development of doctrine, and conflicting practices all over.  I'm not saying that doesn't happen in Christianity--we both know it does all the time--but the idea that you've found this clear path, coherent and systematic throughout will be exposed at some point.  Not unlike many converts to Orthodoxy or Evangelic Xtianity for that matter.

Do you know or somehow feel this already and are sorting it out?  Is that why you are posting here again?
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« Reply #457 on: November 05, 2013, 11:41:14 AM »

Did I get my threads mixed up?

Could be...

I'm sure Tanrı'nın sevgilisi would appreciate quotes from that version of the OT. But it's the NT I quoted and all versions seem to agree on rendering Theos as "God".

Hmmm. What a cute expression that is!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #458 on: November 05, 2013, 11:55:42 AM »

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

We do not believe that Yeshua was the same person as God the Father. If we did, we would be Nominalists/Modalists rather than Orthodox Christians.

What does the Qur'an say about Yeshua and Christianity? Almost nothing. It does not even explain how today's Christianity came into existence despite its fundamental assertion that Yeshua was a messenger who preached Islam. The author of the Qur'an accused Christians of worshipping Yeshua and Miryam as two gods beside God, which has nothing to do with the Biblical and mainstream doctrine of the Trinity. He even ignored once that Christians consider Yeshua both God and man, putting forward the argument that Yeshua ate, so He could not be God!  Grin

What about the Tafsir? The traditional Tafsir but reveals the ignorance and disagreement of Muslims with regard to Christian doctrines.

Sadly enough, not few people fall for the lies put forward in the traditional Islamic commentaries and incline to accept the interpretation of the phrase “the sects” in Surah 19:37 and Surah 43:65 in association with the theological controversies among Christians. The reason for this tendency is the biased and doubtful approach to Christianity because of either a few modern anti-Trinitarian religious groups or the Christological disagreements and fights that could be settled only with the help of the ecumenical councils. This biased approach is most likely a contributing factor to the translation of the first verb in Surah 19:37 in present tense so the argument that Christians’ falling into religious disagreements among themselves is going on today can be strengthened.

Nonetheless, contrary to the popular myths and hoaxes in Islamic or anti-Christian writings, the Church of Christ did not divide into sects at the time of the apostles, and the unity of the Church was not threatened until a certain presbyter named Arius started to preach his controversial teachings about the origin and substance of the Logos (Word of God = Jesus in John’s Gospel 1:1) in the fourth century A.D. More to the point, the first council that had ever convened in Christian history was not the ecumenical council of 325 A.D., but the one that was held in Jerusalem at the time of the twelve apostles (Acts 15:1-31). Strikingly, the first apostolic council did not convene to debate a Christological issue, but to deal with the problems that arose from the conversion of pagans to Christianity and to seek an answer to the question whether such converts would have to fulfill the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law.

Further, none of the Christological controversies that resulted in the ecumenical councils from fourth century onward confirmed or verified the allegations offered in the Islamic commentaries. In such temporary religious divisions that existed until the resolution of a council none of the parties that opposed the teachings of the Church taught that Jesus was but a servant and messenger of God or that He was a part of the Trinity, but not the Son of God.
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/19_37_mystery.html
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« Reply #459 on: November 05, 2013, 12:00:15 PM »

Hmmm. What a cute expression that is!  Roll Eyes

I've just learned that the old spelling of Tanrı is a tetragrammaton (read from right to left):



Coincidence? Meh!
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« Reply #460 on: November 05, 2013, 12:02:21 PM »


Quote
Actually, the sacred name of Adonai contains THREE letters, which may be taken as an allusion to the Trinity.  Cool

I stand corrected. I made a mistake when I wrote this. Sorry.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #461 on: November 05, 2013, 12:06:27 PM »

^ Huh
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« Reply #462 on: November 05, 2013, 12:08:17 PM »

Actually, the sacred name of Adonai contains THREE letters, which may be taken as an allusion to the Trinity.  Cool

I see four letters in there: אֲדֹנָי  Huh
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« Reply #463 on: November 05, 2013, 12:10:51 PM »

Actually, the sacred name of Adonai contains THREE letters, which may be taken as an allusion to the Trinity.  Cool

I see four letters in there: אֲדֹנָי  Huh

I do not know. I read it somewhere in the Haggada. I shall post it if I find.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #464 on: November 05, 2013, 12:14:32 PM »

Actually, the sacred name of Adonai contains THREE letters, which may be taken as an allusion to the Trinity.  Cool

I see four letters in there: אֲדֹנָי  Huh

I do not know. I read it somewhere in the Haggada. I shall post it if I find.  Roll Eyes

The Messianic Haggada?
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« Reply #465 on: November 05, 2013, 12:18:15 PM »

Actually, the sacred name of Adonai contains THREE letters, which may be taken as an allusion to the Trinity.  Cool

I see four letters in there: אֲדֹנָי  Huh

I do not know. I read it somewhere in the Haggada. I shall post it if I find.  Roll Eyes
The Messianic Haggada?
No. Rabbinical literature named Haggada.  Smiley

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« Reply #466 on: November 05, 2013, 12:19:43 PM »

No. Rabbinical literature named Haggada.  Smiley

Ah, no wonder then! Those Rabbis see the Trinity everywhere...  Tongue
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« Reply #467 on: November 05, 2013, 12:31:36 PM »

No. Rabbinical literature named Haggada.  Smiley

Ah, no wonder then! Those Rabbis see the Trinity everywhere...  Tongue

Blame it on me! I misunderstood the following part due to hasty reading. Sorry.  Embarrassed

The third month was chosen for the revelation, because everything that is closely connected with the Torah and with Israel is triple in number. The Torah consists of three parts, the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa; similarly the oral law consists of Midrash, Halakah, and Haggadah. The communications between God and Israel were carried on by three, Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. Israel also is divided into three divisions, priests, Levites, and laymen; and they are, furthermore, the descendants of the three Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God has a preference for "the third": It was the third of Adam's sons, Seth, who became the ancestor of humanity, and so too it was the third among Noah's sons, Shem, who attained high station. Among the Jewish kings, too, it was the third, Solomon, whom God distinguished before all others. The number three plays a particularly important part in the life of Moses. He belonged to the tribe of Levi, which is not only the third of the tribes, but has a name consisting of three letters. He himself was the third of the children of the family; his own name consists of three letters; in his infancy he had been concealed by his mother throughout three months; and in the third month of the year, after a preparation of three days, did he receive the Torah on a mountain, the name of which consists of three letters. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj304.htm
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« Reply #468 on: November 05, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

We do not believe that Yeshua was the same person as God the Father. If we did, we would be Nominalists/Modalists rather than Orthodox  Christians.

Theophilus, think back to when you were a Muslim and someone said this to you. Did you know what a Modalist is, or the use of the word "person" or even "hypostasis?" Shouldn't you be a little more empathetic and eirenic in your approach?  Should you not explain the faith in a simple way for a Muslim to understand rather than give them academic information that is useless and easily misunderstood at her stage of comprehension? Do you feed an infant hard food it its first months?
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« Reply #469 on: November 05, 2013, 02:22:52 PM »


Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed. 

Yea a couple of corrections or retractions or wev. When I say studied Orthodoxy, I should have said looked into, because, it was mostly an overview. I read a few books, Fr Timothy Ware, a couple of his. I read The Wounded Heart and also the prayer books that are used. I went through the liturgy and also read all about the Jesus Prayer.  I listened to a tonne of stuff by Fr Hopko and other ppl who do podcasts on that site. I also bought a book from that Fr. on here. Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. It was ok for giving an overview.
I also started classes about the creed, going through that. I went to service twice.
What else...oh I learnt how to make them knotts on the prayer ropes. I read up on some saints and their Icons and I even had a couple of icons that, after reverting to Islam, I sent them by post to a Fr somewhere I duno, because I knew they had to be cared for properly.

That was the extent of my "study" so, a medium effort, more like a looked into though. I didn't want to be misleading.

Anyway, to reply briefly to this, I came from, no religious upbringing at all, so, the starting point for me was ....does God exist? Once I had decided that The One True God did exist, and I haven't ever wavered on that part, the rest was simply...whose account of All Mighty God is right?

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The councils and the changing canon.
...
...
...
You know all the stuff that I would have read about as  Muslim and been taught concerning Christianity.

But so all of that would have to be reconsidered if I knew that I was wrong about Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام)

But someone earlier mentioned that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Well, so, I am even fearful of considering that it might be true, because that in itself would be such a grave sin to me. So, it's rli hard to even still look into it.

But here I am none the lest, doing jus that. I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.



Constantine didn't do anything. He just reiterated what Christians always believed. Read St. Ignatius from the 1st century. He was the successor to St. Peter, he was disciple of St. John and he knew St. Paul and possibly even Christ himself.

He says: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
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« Reply #470 on: November 05, 2013, 02:29:07 PM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.

Poppy,

I learned Arabic. I was a Salafi manhaj following woman until I learned and read the Quran and Hadith in Arabic...borderline extremist. I hope you do learn Arabic as well and see where it takes you on this journey.

Oh my God...
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« Reply #471 on: November 05, 2013, 02:43:00 PM »


Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed. 

Yea a couple of corrections or retractions or wev. When I say studied Orthodoxy, I should have said looked into, because, it was mostly an overview. I read a few books, Fr Timothy Ware, a couple of his. I read The Wounded Heart and also the prayer books that are used. I went through the liturgy and also read all about the Jesus Prayer.  I listened to a tonne of stuff by Fr Hopko and other ppl who do podcasts on that site. I also bought a book from that Fr. on here. Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. It was ok for giving an overview.
I also started classes about the creed, going through that. I went to service twice.
What else...oh I learnt how to make them knotts on the prayer ropes. I read up on some saints and their Icons and I even had a couple of icons that, after reverting to Islam, I sent them by post to a Fr somewhere I duno, because I knew they had to be cared for properly.

That was the extent of my "study" so, a medium effort, more like a looked into though. I didn't want to be misleading.

Anyway, to reply briefly to this, I came from, no religious upbringing at all, so, the starting point for me was ....does God exist? Once I had decided that The One True God did exist, and I haven't ever wavered on that part, the rest was simply...whose account of All Mighty God is right?

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The councils and the changing canon.
...
...
...
You know all the stuff that I would have read about as  Muslim and been taught concerning Christianity.

But so all of that would have to be reconsidered if I knew that I was wrong about Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام)

But someone earlier mentioned that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Well, so, I am even fearful of considering that it might be true, because that in itself would be such a grave sin to me. So, it's rli hard to even still look into it.

But here I am none the lest, doing jus that. I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.



Constantine didn't do anything. He just reiterated what Christians always believed. Read St. Ignatius from the 1st century. He was the successor to St. Peter, he was disciple of St. John and he knew St. Paul and possibly even Christ himself.

He says: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."

Actually St. Constantine flip-flopped many times during his life.  I'd like to give the credit to St. Athanasius, the great man who stood against the world.
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« Reply #472 on: November 05, 2013, 02:44:31 PM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.

Poppy,

I learned Arabic. I was a Salafi manhaj following woman until I learned and read the Quran and Hadith in Arabic...borderline extremist. I hope you do learn Arabic as well and see where it takes you on this journey.

Oh my God...

Welcome to oc.net!

I hope you stick around.  Please review our rules:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules

God bless.
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« Reply #473 on: November 05, 2013, 02:56:03 PM »

Constantine didn't do anything. He just reiterated what Christians always believed. Read St. Ignatius from the 1st century. He was the successor to St. Peter, he was disciple of St. John and he knew St. Paul and possibly even Christ himself.

He says: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."

Actually St. Constantine flip-flopped many times during his life.  I'd like to give the credit to St. Athanasius, the great man who stood against the world.

Amen. While I know we also venerate Constantine (or at least I have seen the text of a Hiteni for him; I've never actually observed his veneration in church), his legacy has always struck me as more of an administrative victory for the Church in that he opened the door for it to spread legally, not a doctrinal victory such as the steadfastness of St. Athanasius won for the true faith. Of course, this does not mean that I would agree with Poppy, who has apparently swallowed the deeply ahistorical idea (popular among Protestants and certain kinds of anti-history historians and apparently also neophyte Muslims) that Constantine and the councils created new doctrines out of whole cloth, but rather that credit should be given where credit is due. Smiley
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« Reply #474 on: November 05, 2013, 02:57:44 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

Sufis - I have, and, no thanks.
Shias are not considered even Muslims



I'm sure the Shias consider themselves Muslim. Many Sunnis consider them so, too Roll Eyes
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« Reply #475 on: November 05, 2013, 02:59:58 PM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.

Poppy,

I learned Arabic. I was a Salafi manhaj following woman until I learned and read the Quran and Hadith in Arabic...borderline extremist. I hope you do learn Arabic as well and see where it takes you on this journey.

Oh my God...

Not sure if that is a good or bad 'Oh my God' but okie dokie then.  Smiley
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« Reply #476 on: November 05, 2013, 03:53:14 PM »


Thank you for sharing your story.  I get from this two major turning points of your conversion:

1.  Something in the ancient history made you cringe on the idea that Jesus is God.
2.  The 99 names of Allah really inspired you into Islam

Okay.  Just know that if there's any questions you have about the history, feel free to ask, and maybe we can assist you in those questions.  We have a lot of people here eager to answer them for you.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have been given a misconception of "allowing all kinds of badness into the Church."  The Bible also is unchanged throughout history, as attested even by atheist scholars who love to try to shut down Judaism and Christianity.  I've also seen the Orthodox Church continue with unwaveringness and unapologetically keeping the important moral and dogmatic aspects of the faith as well.  So, as much as I thank you for your story, I also find this part of your story seemingly makes the Church sound like we have been corrupted, which is something I am convinced I don't believe.  Furthermore, to be unwavering in changing any faith from its founder is also something as Orthodox we claim with all intensity.  For one thing, we can indeed start with the Bible, which have been proven through history and manuscripts that we can date the words of the New Testament to the First Century for the most part, which is a good indicator of what the people believed.  

Yea a couple of corrections or retractions or wev. When I say studied Orthodoxy, I should have said looked into, because, it was mostly an overview. I read a few books, Fr Timothy Ware, a couple of his. I read The Wounded Heart and also the prayer books that are used. I went through the liturgy and also read all about the Jesus Prayer.  I listened to a tonne of stuff by Fr Hopko and other ppl who do podcasts on that site. I also bought a book from that Fr. on here. Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. It was ok for giving an overview.
I also started classes about the creed, going through that. I went to service twice.
What else...oh I learnt how to make them knotts on the prayer ropes. I read up on some saints and their Icons and I even had a couple of icons that, after reverting to Islam, I sent them by post to a Fr somewhere I duno, because I knew they had to be cared for properly.

That was the extent of my "study" so, a medium effort, more like a looked into though. I didn't want to be misleading.

Anyway, to reply briefly to this, I came from, no religious upbringing at all, so, the starting point for me was ....does God exist? Once I had decided that The One True God did exist, and I haven't ever wavered on that part, the rest was simply...whose account of All Mighty God is right?

The whole introduction of Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام) being the same person as The All Mighty God Himself, was/is really convoluted and I saw it as an addition, that made me total nervous. Even Jesus speaking, separates himself from The All Mighty God in this way in your books.

Then there's the whole Constantine thing.
The councils and the changing canon.
...
...
...
You know all the stuff that I would have read about as  Muslim and been taught concerning Christianity.

But so all of that would have to be reconsidered if I knew that I was wrong about Jesus (عليه الصلاة والسلام)

But someone earlier mentioned that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Well, so, I am even fearful of considering that it might be true, because that in itself would be such a grave sin to me. So, it's rli hard to even still look into it.

But here I am none the lest, doing jus that. I feel like I am sneaking as well, because I haven't told no one at masjid or my classes that I am still thinking about this topic. They would be so disappointed.



Constantine didn't do anything. He just reiterated what Christians always believed. Read St. Ignatius from the 1st century. He was the successor to St. Peter, he was disciple of St. John and he knew St. Paul and possibly even Christ himself.

He says: "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."

Actually St. Constantine flip-flopped many times during his life.  I'd like to give the credit to St. Athanasius, the great man who stood against the world.

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. Muslims, like many anti-Christians, think that Constantine 'made' Christianity. I was only saying that Constantine didn't have a theological role to play in the Council of Nicaea, it is as you said, St. Athanasius and the Holy God-Bearing Bishops of the Holy Catholic Church that did.

Quote
Of course, this does not mean that I would agree with Poppy, who has apparently swallowed the deeply ahistorical idea (popular among Protestants and certain kinds of anti-history historians and apparently also neophyte Muslims) that Constantine and the councils created new doctrines out of whole cloth, but rather that credit should be given where credit is due. Smiley
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« Reply #477 on: November 05, 2013, 03:56:47 PM »

Btw, Poppy, since it came up and you're into Islam, I think you should really have a look at Sufism. You could start with the books of Idries Shah (if devotional piercing doesn't seem a more exciting prospect, that is). In any event, Sufis are preferable to Salafis.

Sufis - I have, and, no thanks.
Shias are not considered even Muslims


I'm sure the Shias consider themselves Muslim. Many Sunnis consider them so, too Roll Eyes

Shi'ites are clearly more Muslim than Sunnis, they follow Muhammad's rightful successor.
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« Reply #478 on: November 05, 2013, 04:07:55 PM »


Theophilus, think back to when you were a Muslim and someone said this to you. Did you know what a Modalist is, or the use of the word "person" or even "hypostasis?" Shouldn't you be a little more empathetic and eirenic in your approach?  Should you not explain the faith in a simple way for a Muslim to understand rather than give them academic information that is useless and easily misunderstood at her stage of comprehension? Do you feed an infant hard food it its first months?

 Shocked I thought Poppy was Christian before she decided to turn to Islam. Sorry about that.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #479 on: November 05, 2013, 04:13:18 PM »

I also agree with Minasoliman about God. The Islamic god is a god of wrath, who hates everything except those who obey him. He also will torture people in hell, and the god of Islam HIMSELF deceives people AWAY from the truth, to fill hell.

The god of Islam, is a restricted god who has no power apart from his 'attributes' in the magic book. He's limited by these. As is the god of the Jews who cannot do anything apart from following the Torah letter for letter, and sending a Messiah in the exact way that is described in the magic book as interpreted by fallible human beings.

God is above fallible books and men.

Muslims worship the god of the Jews. The god that is restricted to his magic book, laws and attributes as interpreted by human beings.

I would also argue Calvinism is quite similar to Islam in many respects.

(Some people would argue that Christians and Jews worship the same God, which I think is true, but Christian conception of God differs from the Jewish conception of God. And so, when I say 'god of the Jews' I mean God as Jews conceive of Him.)
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« Reply #480 on: November 05, 2013, 04:18:05 PM »

i can't fathom why someone would join a religious or non-religious -for that matter- organization where drinking is forbidden. unless that's AA.
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« Reply #481 on: November 05, 2013, 04:27:01 PM »


Theophilus, think back to when you were a Muslim and someone said this to you. Did you know what a Modalist is, or the use of the word "person" or even "hypostasis?" Shouldn't you be a little more empathetic and eirenic in your approach?  Should you not explain the faith in a simple way for a Muslim to understand rather than give them academic information that is useless and easily misunderstood at her stage of comprehension? Do you feed an infant hard food it its first months?

 Shocked I thought Poppy was Christian before she decided to turn to Islam. Sorry about that.  Embarrassed
  She mentioned she was an atheist who was studying Christianity and then stopped...therefore, we can't assume she knows clearly well what the lingo means, and she may misinterpret them.
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« Reply #482 on: November 05, 2013, 04:28:37 PM »

i can't fathom why someone would join a religious or non-religious -for that matter- organization where drinking is forbidden. unless that's AA.

Believe it or not, drinking can be a non-issue for some.  Tongue
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« Reply #483 on: November 05, 2013, 04:56:56 PM »

I also agree with Minasoliman about God. The Islamic god is a god of wrath, who hates everything except those who obey him. He also will torture people in hell, and the god of Islam HIMSELF deceives people AWAY from the truth, to fill hell.

The god of Islam, is a restricted god who has no power apart from his 'attributes' in the magic book. He's limited by these. As is the god of the Jews who cannot do anything apart from following the Torah letter for letter, and sending a Messiah in the exact way that is described in the magic book as interpreted by fallible human beings.

God is above fallible books and men.

Muslims worship the god of the Jews. The god that is restricted to his magic book, laws and attributes as interpreted by human beings.

I would also argue Calvinism is quite similar to Islam in many respects.

(Some people would argue that Christians and Jews worship the same God, which I think is true, but Christian conception of God differs from the Jewish conception of God. And so, when I say 'god of the Jews' I mean God as Jews conceive of Him.)
Please don't misunderstand...I'm not attacking the God as portrayed by Islam as wrathful and tyrannical, but I am only emphasizing why Christ is the ultimate manifestation of God that one can have an intimate relationship with that removes all vanity from other explanations and religions.
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« Reply #484 on: November 05, 2013, 05:19:04 PM »

I also agree with Minasoliman about God. The Islamic god is a god of wrath, who hates everything except those who obey him. He also will torture people in hell, and the god of Islam HIMSELF deceives people AWAY from the truth, to fill hell.

The god of Islam, is a restricted god who has no power apart from his 'attributes' in the magic book. He's limited by these. As is the god of the Jews who cannot do anything apart from following the Torah letter for letter, and sending a Messiah in the exact way that is described in the magic book as interpreted by fallible human beings.

God is above fallible books and men.

Muslims worship the god of the Jews. The god that is restricted to his magic book, laws and attributes as interpreted by human beings.

I would also argue Calvinism is quite similar to Islam in many respects.

(Some people would argue that Christians and Jews worship the same God, which I think is true, but Christian conception of God differs from the Jewish conception of God. And so, when I say 'god of the Jews' I mean God as Jews conceive of Him.)
Please don't misunderstand...I'm not attacking the God as portrayed by Islam as wrathful and tyrannical, but I am only emphasizing why Christ is the ultimate manifestation of God that one can have an intimate relationship with that removes all vanity from other explanations and religions.

I know. I agreed with what you said, and I added my own very offensive blather.
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« Reply #485 on: November 05, 2013, 05:45:19 PM »

i can't fathom why someone would join a religious or non-religious -for that matter- organization where drinking is forbidden. unless that's AA.

Believe it or not, drinking can be a non-issue for some.  Tongue
It was for Vladimir &co. Prob. more than theological mumbojumbo
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« Reply #486 on: November 05, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »

i can't fathom why someone would join a religious or non-religious -for that matter- organization where drinking is forbidden. unless that's AA.

Believe it or not, drinking can be a non-issue for some.  Tongue
It was for Vladimir &co. Prob. more than theological mumbojumbo

With enough alcohol everything turns into mumbojumbo.
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« Reply #487 on: November 05, 2013, 05:57:21 PM »

Theological reflection foremost
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« Reply #488 on: November 05, 2013, 06:03:39 PM »

Theophilus, think back to when you were a Muslim and someone said this to you. Did you know what a Modalist is, or the use of the word "person" or even "hypostasis?" Shouldn't you be a little more empathetic and eirenic in your approach?  Should you not explain the faith in a simple way for a Muslim to understand rather than give them academic information that is useless and easily misunderstood at her stage of comprehension? Do you feed an infant hard food it its first months?

That's just how Yahwists roll, broseph. 
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« Reply #489 on: November 05, 2013, 06:05:06 PM »

Theological reflection foremost

Interesting deflection!

For most, body coordination and articulate thought and speech are more likely to be impaired. 
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« Reply #490 on: November 05, 2013, 06:06:46 PM »

Theophilus, think back to when you were a Muslim and someone said this to you. Did you know what a Modalist is, or the use of the word "person" or even "hypostasis?" Shouldn't you be a little more empathetic and eirenic in your approach?  Should you not explain the faith in a simple way for a Muslim to understand rather than give them academic information that is useless and easily misunderstood at her stage of comprehension? Do you feed an infant hard food it its first months?

That's just how Yahwists roll, broseph. 

Yet I do not want to know how Allahists roll.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #491 on: November 05, 2013, 06:42:07 PM »

Poppy yes I looked into Islam as well into Orthodoxy or hmm har with the two as you put it Cheesy. The thing is people only look and view things through the lens of what we are brought up with. It takes people a lot of work to view things out side that lens. I'm not saying that I have mastered that in my own life but have tried. To this day I can't make heads or tails of the trinity I'm not going to lie. I have talked to all kinds of different Christians to find out the answers no matter what they bring to me just don't get it. To me I use this pc here and I don't have to become a pc to understand how it works and what it does. Allah (swt) made me so I don't think that its not he couldn't become man but there is no need for Allah (swt)to become man. I know most here don't try to view it as we do or even try cause they go by what feels good on the inside.Tons of people die everyday don't mean I get saved from it does it. Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing. I agree with Paul it is for nothing cause he is not a god nor is he Allah(swt) Just study your Deen sister Poppy and leave this type of thinking and Welcome to Islam.

Ps Anyone know how to change Screen names on here? as it don't fit me as being I'm no longer in Judaism  laugh
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« Reply #492 on: November 05, 2013, 07:25:20 PM »

jewish voice: God became man because of the death that mankind faced, and God was merciful enough to let Himself go on the Cross to overturn death and not put one of us in His place.

The Allah of Islam is just a fabrication of men's minds and hands. The same as the 'god' of Judaism. Do you really think God is satisfied when you read a magic book, wash your hands and learn religious 'knowledge'?

Muhammad is not a Prophet, just a man. He's not magical. Neither is the Qur'an.

"Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing" And that's a misquotation of St. Paul's words. He said if Christ is not raised it is all for nothing. And Christ was raised, and He bears testimony of your rejection of Him given that fact.

Jesus being God is a revelation to humanity in the Incarnation. The Jews at the time of Christ such as the Essenes and Philo indicate that the Messiah would be Divine. And the Holy Scripture teaches these things in Ezekiel 37, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 9 and other areas.
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« Reply #493 on: November 05, 2013, 07:35:47 PM »

Allah (swt) made me so I don't think that its not he couldn't become man but there is no need for Allah (swt)to become man.

We don't believe the Incarnation was a necessity (God had no other choice). However, it did happen and it is the only new and astonishing fact under the sun, as well as the ultimate proof for God's love of mankind.

As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing. I agree with Paul it is for nothing cause he is not a god nor is he Allah(swt)

St. Paul said our faith is vain if Christ did not rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:14).

Ps Anyone know how to change Screen names on here? as it don't fit me as being I'm no longer in Judaism  laugh

PM Fr. George, the forum administrator.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:37:19 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #494 on: November 05, 2013, 08:14:19 PM »

The thing is people only look and view things through the lens of what we are brought up with. It takes people a lot of work to view things out side that lens.

Like many people here, I was not brought up in or around Orthodox Christianity.

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To this day I can't make heads or tails of the trinity I'm not going to lie. I have talked to all kinds of different Christians to find out the answers no matter what they bring to me just don't get it.

This makes me wonder about the god of Islam. The Muslims I know seem fine admitting that he is beyond their comprehension, but some converts (to all religions) seem to be really bothered by what they can't understand, as though the things that all the faithful of all ages have grappled with should be made clear to them now before they can have faith, for some reason. If Islam's Allah is to be a reasonable God for a reasonable people, then why end everything with "Allah 'alem" (God knows), as though you haven't figured it out? From a Christian perspective, it just seems weird that Muslims would go on and on about "God knows" and "If God wills" and "There is none like Him" and all that, but then when we say "Yes! Exactly! None is like the Holy Trinity!", they back up and go "Heyyy...hold on a minute...we didn't mean that...I mean, that's unreasonable! It is beneath God that He should have a son!"

So you are left in a very strange conceptual space where you have to say "It's not that he couldn't do it, it's that there wouldn't be need for Him to do it", as though God operates based on some perceived 'need'. Other Christians like to spin their wheels in alternative universes, too, also for the sake of making what actually happened anything but the focus of the discussion. God could've come to earth as a 500 foot-tall jello mold piloting a spaceship covered in Christmas lights, but He didn't. Now who's doing more to disrespect God's majesty or whatever by saying "He didn't need to do this", or "It's beneath Him that this would happen"? If the things you are objecting to are things He already did, then why does He need your armchair quarterbacking 600 years after the fact, or today, or ever? So long as we're going base what we can accept based on what we hypothesize about what God would need, we might as well mention what He doesn't. And Christianity certainly had that covered long before Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islam ever existed: "You are my Lord; You have no need of my goodness." (St. Augustine, Confessions)

So it is telling to me, in this context, that Poppy has written elsewhere that in Islam the goal is that your good deeds outweigh your bad (or some such; sorry, Poppy...this thread is moving too fast for me to recall the exact quote). And this connects to the incarnation and the crucifixion and the resurrection, all of these. They're nothing He needed to do. They're nothing we made Him do. They're what He did, and I respect His prerogatives as God.

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To me I use this pc here and I don't have to become a pc to understand how it works and what it does. Allah (swt) made me so I don't think that its not he couldn't become man but there is no need for Allah (swt)to become man.


Ah, but see above. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the incarnation. Rather, as St. Gregory teaches us, that which is not assumed is not healed. That God should want to save us from the devil is not a foreign concept in Islam, is it? I have heard with my own ears Muslims pray to Allah for protection against the devil. And who among us, Christian or Muslim, would dare to face the demons without calling on divine assistance? The difference, of course, is that in Christianity that salvation was incarnated in the God-man Jesus Christ, such was His love for us and desire to save us from eternal damnation. Could he have done so some other way? Sure. St. Athanasius the Apostolic says nothing less in his treatise on the Incarnation: "He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body [...] This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die..."

The analogy with the computer is a little odd. It would seem to reduce the Lord to a purely tactile creature, as though He could not understand His creation if He did not become part of it. Heaven forbid! It is because He understands our plight that He willed Himself to go through it to the utmost, beyond what any of us could do, and came to us as a servant, trampling down death by death and restoring life to those in the tombs.

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I know most here don't try to view it as we do or even try cause they go by what feels good on the inside.

This is needlessly insulting, don't you think? I was not a fan earlier in the thread when someone here insinuated that love of a Muslim man was behind Poppy's conversion to Islam, and I am not a fan now when you presuppose that Christians adhere to their religion because it "feels good on the inside". You are not made out of different stuff than the rest of humanity, Muslim Voice. I don't know if you got some sort of Secret Club decoder ring down at the masjid so that only you and other Muslims really understand what religion is about, but whatever it is, you're fooling yourself if you think other people are driven by emotionalism, but neophyte Muslims such as yourself have it all figured out by logic and reason. We're all people, and chances are you ended up in Islam because you find it true, no different than how converts to other religions (including from Islam) find their new religions.

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Tons of people die everyday don't mean I get saved from it does it.


And none of those tons of people are Jesus Christ.

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Only way Christians make use of Jesus on the cross is by saying he is a god other wise his death is no different than mine or their own. As Paul said if Jesus isn't god then being Christian is all for nothing.


If you are meaning to allude to his first epistle to the Corinthians, the wording is "if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty" (15:14; emphasis mine). It is in answer to those who would deny the resurrection of the dead (see the immediately preceding verses), as there was some controversy among the various communities on this point. It does not deny either the divinity of Christ nor His resurrection, but says, in effect, "if you do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen, and if Christ is not risen, our faith is meaningless". Seeing as how Islam believes in the resurrection of the dead (yawm el-qiyama and whatnot), this is an odd matter for a Muslim to bring up as though it provides some defense for their religion.

Though I suppose it is interesting to see a Muslim finally say that they agree with St. Paul on something. I never thought I would live to see the day. Smiley
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 08:20:36 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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