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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 13992 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2013, 12:02:30 AM »

Islam's main appeal to me lies in the fact that it's much more practical and understanding--especially in regards to male sexuality, whereas Christianity is too transcendent, mystical, and neglectful toward our physical bodies. But, I think that the incarnation is what makes it worth it.

You're like a dog with a bone...

You have no idea how much I love JamesR.
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« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2013, 12:05:32 AM »

I could list a tonne of stuff but won't,

Would you mind making a list for the rest of us, if we promise not be jerks about it or crazy argumentative?
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« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2013, 12:09:55 AM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...

I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.

It is trusting the Prophet, because it all depends on whether he is truly a prophet or not. It's not an issue of whether Jesus is God, it's an issue of whether you believe Muhammad is a prophet. Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first. Something Islam rejects.

Can you tell me why Umar ibn al-Khattab deleted the Hayaa ala al-Khair al-'Amal from the Azan? And why he made up from thin air a 'Tarawih' prayer? And why can you trust Umar and Abu Bakr when at Saqeefa they plotted to murder Imam Ali?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odipcZvgZlg

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18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed. (Deuteronomy 18:18-21)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:24:19 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2013, 12:12:41 AM »

Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first.

OK. Maybe you read the Koran, but have you read the Bible, the NT, the Acts of the Apostles? St. Paul?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:15:04 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 12:14:20 AM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?

I am going to throw away any mention of Quran versus Bible, history, etc. Yes, I struggled for the last few of my Muslim years because I like to consider myself a moral person. Meaning if it weighs on my soul and feels wrong I can not usually do it. Once I decided I wanted to really know Islam in depth with hopes to increase my faith and bring me closer to Allah I was pushed back by those morals based off of things which are true that I read in Arabic. Muslims should imitate Muhammed as much as possible and after really deciding to make that happen for me I was left only to learn how he was a murdered of hundreds, advocated lying to infiltrate other groups (lying about being Muslim) and a host of other unappealing things. Yet I still struggled with things I saw as beautiful like salat, the method of prayer in Islam or the modesty of Muslim women. I flip flopped for a long while and on bad days the thoughts still cross my mind of Islam, not going to lie.

That is what made my mind up. Also the fact that I have spent time in a mostly Muslim country where I hung around with mainly Christians (I know, strange) and saw how the Muslims used Islam to justify treatment of them. I have no desire to be a part of a group that harms others and calls it halal or permissible based on what their prophet said.


Sorry sister I missed this post.

How were you allowed to hang with Christians in a Muslim majority country,when Muslims are not allowed to free mix and must always lower their gaze,men and women both? Did you become a revert and from a non-Muslim family? Sorry, if the questions are too personal then don't answer.

It was the beauty of Islam that attracted me too. I could list a tonne of stuff but won't, because you have made your choice and I respect that.

Jzk for your replies. rli appreciate it.

It is OK. I am going to be very up front with you here, and maybe you as a Muslim woman won't enjoy hearing what I am about to say since it is a large no-no. I come from a lapsed Christian family. I reverted, basically. I had free will as well which Islam promotes once you dig deeper into it. It is quite complicated really. I also hung with them because I fell in love with a Christian man....that'll do it as well. So I was naturally more around them versus Muslims.

Muslim countries allow free mixing. Only Saudi doesn't. Islamic countries aren't as Islamic as you would think, I knew this after I saw Egyptian teenage couples walking around holding hands and kissing at the metro stops. They "must always" however I stayed around Coptic men because they never once eyeball raped me the way Muslim men did or grabbed me, my body wasn't overly sexualized to the point that even a piece of hair or my arm got them going. You will find very few hold to this sunnah concept once you go to the Muslim world, especially as a white lady (I'm white, not sure about yourself).

It is almost 1am but I will be back in the morning, so sorry if I am rambling or spelling badly. My eyes are crossing!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:20:54 AM by rebecca.ann » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2013, 12:18:34 AM »

Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first.

OK. Maybe you read the Koran, but have you read the Bible, the NT, the Acts of the Apostles? St. Paul?

I haven't 'read' the Quran or 'read' the Bible. I don't claim to have the understanding capable of 'knowing' those things. I only know what I know. I have read parts of both and learned about both, and I continue to.
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« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2013, 12:23:59 AM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...

I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.

It is trusting the Prophet, because it all depends on whether he is truly a prophet or not. It's not an issue of whether Jesus is God, it's an issue of whether you believe Muhammad is a prophet. Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first. Something Islam rejects.

Can you tell me why Umar ibn al-Khattab deleted the Hayaa ala al-Khair al-'Amal from the Azan? And why he made up from thin air a 'Tarawih' prayer? And why can you trust Umar and Abu Bakr when at Saqeefa they plotted to murder Imam Ali?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTGKVnjSno

I disagree akhi, if you can trust God to guide you (and ultimately I do), then for me that supersedes anything else. But regarding the Prophet, I can't see that he was anything else as he was completely illiterate but had all this stuff revealed to him.

Ok so about your other question, you would need a mufti for that answer as I suspect, as with all these part-knowledge type things that each religion throws at each other, it has a rational explanation often misunderstood from a bad interpretation and all to easily believed. Inshallah, i will ask my imam though and I will ask the bloke who does the tafsir classes.
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« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2013, 12:27:37 AM »

Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first.

OK. Maybe you read the Koran, but have you read the Bible, the NT, the Acts of the Apostles? St. Paul?

I haven't 'read' the Quran or 'read' the Bible. I don't claim to have the understanding capable of 'knowing' those things. I only know what I know. I have read parts of both and learned about both, and I continue to.

Well I would be careful claiming that people have to have some understanding of "Judaic thought" to accept Christ as God. Is it helpful? Sure. It is beneficial. Sure.

But Christianity has a long history of appropriating what is present when found and Christening it. Only in light of Christ does Judaism makes sense to the Inuit, to the Greek, to Russian, etc.

Christianity isn't about tearing down other religions but shining forth as truth. Martyrdom, not arguedom.

So I am told.
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« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2013, 12:28:00 AM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...


I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.

It is trusting the Prophet, because it all depends on whether he is truly a prophet or not. It's not an issue of whether Jesus is God, it's an issue of whether you believe Muhammad is a prophet. Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first. Something Islam rejects.

Can you tell me why Umar ibn al-Khattab deleted the Hayaa ala al-Khair al-'Amal from the Azan? And why he made up from thin air a 'Tarawih' prayer? And why can you trust Umar and Abu Bakr when at Saqeefa they plotted to murder Imam Ali?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTGKVnjSno

I disagree akhi, if you can trust God to guide you (and ultimately I do), then for me that supersedes anything else. But regarding the Prophet, I can't see that he was anything else as he was completely illiterate but had all this stuff revealed to him.

Ok so about your other question, you would need a mufti for that answer as I suspect, as with all these part-knowledge type things that each religion throws at each other, it has a rational explanation often misunderstood from a bad interpretation and all to easily believed. Inshallah, i will ask my imam though and I will ask the bloke who does the tafsir classes.

Poppy,

If you trust God, would you be willing to do everything Islam and Muhammed PBUH say to do? Ask yourself this only after you have read everything on your own and come to your own conclusion, not consult an Imam each time.
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2013, 12:30:13 AM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?

I am going to throw away any mention of Quran versus Bible, history, etc. Yes, I struggled for the last few of my Muslim years because I like to consider myself a moral person. Meaning if it weighs on my soul and feels wrong I can not usually do it. Once I decided I wanted to really know Islam in depth with hopes to increase my faith and bring me closer to Allah I was pushed back by those morals based off of things which are true that I read in Arabic. Muslims should imitate Muhammed as much as possible and after really deciding to make that happen for me I was left only to learn how he was a murdered of hundreds, advocated lying to infiltrate other groups (lying about being Muslim) and a host of other unappealing things. Yet I still struggled with things I saw as beautiful like salat, the method of prayer in Islam or the modesty of Muslim women. I flip flopped for a long while and on bad days the thoughts still cross my mind of Islam, not going to lie.

That is what made my mind up. Also the fact that I have spent time in a mostly Muslim country where I hung around with mainly Christians (I know, strange) and saw how the Muslims used Islam to justify treatment of them. I have no desire to be a part of a group that harms others and calls it halal or permissible based on what their prophet said.


Sorry sister I missed this post.

How were you allowed to hang with Christians in a Muslim majority country,when Muslims are not allowed to free mix and must always lower their gaze,men and women both? Did you become a revert and from a non-Muslim family? Sorry, if the questions are too personal then don't answer.

It was the beauty of Islam that attracted me too. I could list a tonne of stuff but won't, because you have made your choice and I respect that.

Jzk for your replies. rli appreciate it.

It is OK. I am going to be very up front with you here, and maybe you as a Muslim woman won't enjoy hearing what I am about to say since it is a large no-no. I come from a lapsed Christian family. I reverted, basically. I had free will as well which Islam promotes once you dig deeper into it. It is quite complicated really. I also hung with them because I fell in love with a Christian man....that'll do it as well. So I was naturally more around them versus Muslims.

Muslim countries allow free mixing. Only Saudi doesn't. Islamic countries aren't as Islamic as you would think, I knew this after I saw Egyptian teenage couples walking around holding hands and kissing at the metro stops. They "must always" however I stayed around Coptic men because they never once eyeball raped me the way Muslim men did or grabbed me, my body wasn't overly sexualized to the point that even a piece of hair or my arm got them going. You will find very few hold to this sunnah concept once you go to the Muslim world, especially as a white lady (I'm white, not sure about yourself).

It is almost 1am but I will be back in the morning, so sorry if I am rambling or spelling badly. My eyes are crossing!

It's ok. Thanks again for your response.

It's almost fajr time for me so, I have to log off anyhow.

I'm white and blonde. Typical saxon or is it viking? idk
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« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2013, 12:30:53 AM »

Ok so about your other question, you would need a mufti for that answer as I suspect, as with all these part-knowledge type things that each religion throws at each other, it has a rational explanation often misunderstood from a bad interpretation and all to easily believed. Inshallah, i will ask my imam though and I will ask the bloke who does the tafsir classes.

See why arguing always fails.

Always, unless there are a lot of swords behind the argument.

Anyway Poppy, if you want to list what you find attractive, if that word makes any sense, about Islam, I would be interested.
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« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2013, 12:31:38 AM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...

I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.

It is trusting the Prophet, because it all depends on whether he is truly a prophet or not. It's not an issue of whether Jesus is God, it's an issue of whether you believe Muhammad is a prophet. Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first. Something Islam rejects.

Can you tell me why Umar ibn al-Khattab deleted the Hayaa ala al-Khair al-'Amal from the Azan? And why he made up from thin air a 'Tarawih' prayer? And why can you trust Umar and Abu Bakr when at Saqeefa they plotted to murder Imam Ali?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTGKVnjSno

I disagree akhi, if you can trust God to guide you (and ultimately I do), then for me that supersedes anything else. But regarding the Prophet, I can't see that he was anything else as he was completely illiterate but had all this stuff revealed to him.

Ok so about your other question, you would need a mufti for that answer as I suspect, as with all these part-knowledge type things that each religion throws at each other, it has a rational explanation often misunderstood from a bad interpretation and all to easily believed. Inshallah, i will ask my imam though and I will ask the bloke who does the tafsir classes.

That's my point. You just close your mind and let others think for you, let 'God guide you' when it's a matter of Hell or Jannah. If you knew the answer for yourself you'd leave Islam.

And Islam, like every other world religion, is a legalistic framework that subordinates God to His Law and Commands and subordinates humanity to God. Why is God stuck in place and not able to do anything outside of a magic book and 'infallible' human beings who interpret that book?

Muhammad was illiterate, or so they claim. However, that doesn't prove anything about his prophetic credentials. The Qur'an is simply a bi-product of historical development. And I don't know why you could trust it, it's missing many verses. There is no 'knowledge' in Orthodoxy, except that which God imparts to His Church. Superficial knowledge is useless, and God probably wouldn't care how knowledgeable you are. 'Only Allah knows' is the easy way out.

Plus, I don't need a 'bloke from Tafsir classes' to tell me what the Qur'an means. I know Arabic, I just look it up for myself. Not that I care very much about it.

Besides, most of it is gibberish anyway, and Muslim scholars admit this.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:55:02 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2013, 12:42:18 AM »

I am currently reading Sidney H. Griffith's The Bible in Arabic, which devotes a substantial portion of its total pages to investigating the Qur'an as it relates to the Bible, as the Qur'an is in some sense the antecedent to the Arabic Bible translations that would come out of the preexisting Christian and Jewish communities of Arabia in the wake of the arrival of the Qur'an and the religion built around it. Griffith makes the somewhat atypical claim (which I'm not sure I'm buying, but am trying to suspend judgment on, since I love Griffith's work) that the anomalies we find in the Qur'an with regard to its presentation of Christian and Jewish doctrine do not reflect the influence of gnostic or otherwise heretical forms of these religions, but actually reflect some level of understanding and concord with the mainstream positions of the preexisting communions found in Arabia in Muhammad's day, like the Miaphysite Orthodox and the Nestorians (of course, most people would say that one or both of these communions are themselves heretical, but I think Griffith's point of view is that whatever the Qur'an inherited from Christians wasn't from Ebionites or others like that, in contradiction of the position of many scholars who have investigated this topic who say exactly that).

My point of view is that any such apologies for the Qur'an via the Bible (such as are popular among Muslims themselves, too) are bound to fail, because even if the Qur'an does ultimately draw its inspiration from "mainstream" Christian sects in so far as its recall of Biblical stories and figures are concerned, what it makes of them after mutilating those stories and persons is largely unrecognizable. Griffith writes repeatedly how this or that story or personality is obviously rooted in some form of Biblical recall, but does not match up with Christian or Jewish traditions regarding the same (let alone quote any Biblical passage word for word, save one possible exception) because it is consciously changed to fit the Qur'ans "distinctive prophetology", or its view of itself as "corrective" to the errors of the Christians or Jews. Well excuse me, but that strikes me as a bit bizarre; sort of like saying "Mormons aren't heretics; they're just twisting the Bible to fit their own 'distinctive theology'" or something similar. The Qur'an, and hence the religion that is built around it, fails quite simply because it is not what it says it is: It is not the word of God/Allah (and, as a corollary, Muhammad is not the messenger of God/Allah, his "revelation" is false, etc). And we can know that it is not what it says it is because it fails in its own stated goals to serve as "reminder" of what came before (since it doesn't match what came before, but instead only twists it around), and to bring people back to the true religion that has apparently been corrupted by the preexisting Christians and Jews (since Muslims can never show where the supposed corruption took place, only point to areas where the Bible contradicts the Qur'an as though that is self-evidently the same thing). It is a bit of a Goldilocks religion (...but Muhammad's revelation was juuuust right), and I have always gotten a sense that there is some kind of "me too"-ism in its approach to other religions: The Jews have their prophets and patriarchs and the Christians theirs, but who ever thought that there should be a prophet from among the Arabs, or took to heart what he claims to have brought forth because God has revealed this new thing in 'clear Arabic'? (as the Qur'an congratulates itself for being...well whoopty-freaking-doo...er, excuse me...alhamdulilah...)

Some people, even Orthodox people, have said that the Qur'an and Islam are essentially no different than Christianity in this regard, as Christianity sees itself as the fulfillment of Judaism in some sense. I am not sympathetic to this view for at least a few reasons:

(1) At the time of Christ (and, in the Jews' view, of course also after Him), there was a preexisting belief in the coming of a Messiah. For Christians, Jesus is that Messiah as well as being the Son of God. In contrast, by the time of Muhammad, for at least the Christians the Messiah had already come and it had been accepted for centuries that there would be no other Messiah, nor any new prophets or new revelations after the deaths of the Apostles. So Muhammad is out. (For the Jews, not being one myself I can only say that as far as I know they do not accept Muhammad as a prophet, nor do they agree with the Qur'ans contention that somehow Jesus is the Messiah, so he would appear to be a failure in that religion, as well.)

(2) Christianity does not seek to strength itself by claiming any textual corruption on the part of the Jews, as we do indeed accept their scripture as our scripture (even though our canons and versions of accepted books differ for historical reasons). Rather, related to Christ's divinity and the authority invested in His interpretation as the final and only correct interpretation of whatever matter is at hand ("You have heard it said..., but I say unto you..."), we say that the Jews are mistaken in rejecting Him and His commands. This difference might seem subtle (e.g., Muslims or others could respond "Well, Christians and Jews are wrong in rejecting Muhammad and the commands brought in the Qur'an, too!"), but it is quite important. It lays in the source of authority by which someone can claim that they should be followed, as we say that Muhammad brought a new revelation that contradicts what was known before, and cited as his authority revelations from "God" which no one else ever saw or was allowed to question. By contrast, at least for Christians, as Jesus is God, that's the only authority He needs. Muhammad, not being God, cannot claim the same authority.

For all these reasons and more, I find Islam very flawed, and have no trouble at all rejecting it. It only even gets brought up in the context of comparison to Christianity or Judaism because it has falsely wedged itself into some sort of vague "Abrahamic" family (com'on...even Christians and Jews share some of the same texts, and their rituals share some common ancestry), but at its roots it is something else, bringing a new revelation that is not believed by any preexisting religion (all the while claiming to be in conformity with them), from a prophet who nobody asked for, to a marginal people who, were it not for their false prophet and the religion he and his successors forced upon the world (including Arabia proper), would not have much in the way of non-regional accomplishments, literary culture, etc. No wonder Muslims insist that the Qur'an is Muhammad's miracle. I don't buy it. Islam is bunk.
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« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2013, 12:49:33 AM »

I am currently reading Sidney H. Griffith's The Bible in Arabic, which devotes a substantial portion of its total pages to investigating the Qur'an as it relates to the Bible,

Dumb question maybe, but do you have to know Arabic to read this text. If don't have to have Arabic, is it still a worthwhile text to read?

And I still claim all these arguments go nowhere when it comes to belief. They just fill in certain gaps later for folks.
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« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2013, 12:49:54 AM »

I could list a tonne of stuff but won't,

Would you mind making a list for the rest of us, if we promise not be jerks about it or crazy argumentative?

+1

I can't promise others won't be jerks or crazy argumentative, but knowing that you made up your mind, I at least with orthonorm will promise I won't be a jerk or be crazy argumentative.

I hope everyone in this board knows the meaning of "fishers of men", not "fighters of men".
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« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2013, 01:22:51 AM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?
There are people who have. For example, here is a video of a Catholic priest who converted to Islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro
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« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2013, 01:33:37 AM »

I am currently reading Sidney H. Griffith's The Bible in Arabic, which devotes a substantial portion of its total pages to investigating the Qur'an as it relates to the Bible,

Dumb question maybe, but do you have to know Arabic to read this text. If don't have to have Arabic, is it still a worthwhile text to read?

It is in English, so you should be fine.

Quote
And I still claim all these arguments go nowhere when it comes to belief. They just fill in certain gaps later for folks.

I agree. Most of this thread apparently happened while I was writing my post, and reading subsequent posts it occurs to me that I may have misunderstood its function. I thought the OP was asking for reasons why those who had wondered about the truth of Islam vis-a-vis Christianity came to choose Christianity rather than Islam. If that's not the point, then I'm sorry, OP, for derailing your thread and I too would be interested to read what you found/find compelling in Islam. I have known several Christians of various persuasions who converted to Islam (most did not stay Muslims), but none of them as far as I can remember had either come from or considered Orthodox Christianity prior to becoming Muslims, for whatever that distinction is worth. If I understand one of the replies to your OP correctly, you came back from a visit to Greece with an interest in Islam, which strikes me as interesting since as far as I know Islam has historically been confined to a few minority populations in Greece, and strongly concentrated in a few islands relative to the much larger Eastern Orthodox population of the country. So please do share with us, if you wouldn't mind. I'll try to just absorb your point of view, and ask questions instead of arguing.
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« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2013, 01:40:26 AM »

Who owns a Qu'ran here except ppl like Romaios, xariskai, norm, Isa, etc,?

Bible good enough for me.

I dont have time to read the Qua'ran. I'd rather google dumb stuff on the internet.

I have one, FWIW. Used to have two.
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« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2013, 01:43:07 AM »

Who owns a Qu'ran here except ppl like Romaios, xariskai, norm, Isa, etc,?

Bible good enough for me.

I dont have time to read the Qua'ran. I'd rather google dumb stuff on the internet.

I have one, FWIW. Used to have two.

I have one one. You should have seen the faces of few Somali colleagues of mine when they heard that there is a Finnish translation of Quran.
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« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2013, 06:50:06 AM »


I can't promise others won't be jerks or crazy argumentative, but knowing that you made up your mind, I at least with orthonorm will promise I won't be a jerk or be crazy argumentative.

I hope everyone in this board knows the meaning of "fishers of men", not "fighters of men".

No mina. There is no point in giving a list. I am posting this thread to find out what I want to know, not to provide a case for Islam on a Christian forum. That would be total idiocy and also disrespectful. And also probably against the rules.


Also as well, you have to, have to read the Qur'an in Arabic. You can read it in English but it's not the Qur'an, it's a transliteration. You have to memorise it too, in Arabic, as it's what you recite in your daily salah.

You know, Christians should pray the hours too. It's in the bible.
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« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2013, 06:52:05 AM »

And also probably against the rules.

It's not unless you actively proselitise.
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2013, 06:55:28 AM »

And also probably against the rules.

It's not unless you actively proselitise.

Ok thank you. But it would still be a tangent for me.
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« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2013, 06:59:34 AM »

And also probably against the rules.

It's not unless you actively proselitise.

Ok thank you. But it would still be a tangent for me.

Just do not blame your tangent of the forum rules.
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« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2013, 07:19:33 AM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...

I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.

It is trusting the Prophet, because it all depends on whether he is truly a prophet or not. It's not an issue of whether Jesus is God, it's an issue of whether you believe Muhammad is a prophet. Jesus being God stems from an acceptance of Judaic thought of some sort first. Something Islam rejects.

Can you tell me why Umar ibn al-Khattab deleted the Hayaa ala al-Khair al-'Amal from the Azan? And why he made up from thin air a 'Tarawih' prayer? And why can you trust Umar and Abu Bakr when at Saqeefa they plotted to murder Imam Ali?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akTGKVnjSno

I disagree akhi, if you can trust God to guide you (and ultimately I do), then for me that supersedes anything else. But regarding the Prophet, I can't see that he was anything else as he was completely illiterate but had all this stuff revealed to him.

Ok so about your other question, you would need a mufti for that answer as I suspect, as with all these part-knowledge type things that each religion throws at each other, it has a rational explanation often misunderstood from a bad interpretation and all to easily believed. Inshallah, i will ask my imam though and I will ask the bloke who does the tafsir classes.

That's my point. You just close your mind and let others think for you, let 'God guide you' when it's a matter of Hell or Jannah. If you knew the answer for yourself you'd leave Islam.

And Islam, like every other world religion, is a legalistic framework that subordinates God to His Law and Commands and subordinates humanity to God. Why is God stuck in place and not able to do anything outside of a magic book and 'infallible' human beings who interpret that book?

Muhammad was illiterate, or so they claim. However, that doesn't prove anything about his prophetic credentials. The Qur'an is simply a bi-product of historical development. And I don't know why you could trust it, it's missing many verses. There is no 'knowledge' in Orthodoxy, except that which God imparts to His Church. Superficial knowledge is useless, and God probably wouldn't care how knowledgeable you are. 'Only Allah knows' is the easy way out.

Plus, I don't need a 'bloke from Tafsir classes' to tell me what the Qur'an means. I know Arabic, I just look it up for myself. Not that I care very much about it.

Besides, most of it is gibberish anyway, and Muslim scholars admit this.

With the respect to the guidance of Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, sure, there is a closed mind but in terms of fiqh? There are four main schools and it is far from a closed mind. I mainly follow the Hanbali school of fiqh but the Hanafi is the most common. But this is not down to any differences in Qur'an. All schools of fiqh follow the exact same Qur'an with no exceptions as it is read in Arabic and every Qur'an is the exact same as the next.

Emboldened - then why ask me the question?? Rather just tell me the info if you already know the answer.

"Muslim scholars admit this" - If you're going to be that lazy in your answers then, I will let you go yawn and roll your eyes on another thread rather than take up your time here.
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« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2013, 07:22:55 AM »

And also probably against the rules.

It's not unless you actively proselitise.

Ok thank you. But it would still be a tangent for me.

Just do not blame your tangent of the forum rules.

I won't because, there won't be one.

I think you meant lack of tangent
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« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2013, 07:50:19 AM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?
There are people who have. For example, here is a video of a Catholic priest who converted to Islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro

Yea, and a Christian Youth Minister who was born and raised in Greenville Carolina, reverted to Islam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY

But you will equally find testimonies from Muslims who converted to Christianity as well.
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« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2013, 07:50:54 AM »

I never was "hmm har"  about Islam.  There were some Muslim girls in school I was attracted to, so I learned more about Islam.  I have a Koran and Hadith (don't know which one off the top of my head) with both the Arabic and English side-by-side.  To me, even with the close call of falling in love with a Muslim girl and considering conversion, I still had massive doubts about Islam.  Re-reading the Scriptures (The Gospels and Psalms, especially), cleared it all up for me.  I always believed Jesus is Lord, the Son of the Living God.  Now I really know.  So, no.  There is no issue of divinity with Jesus Christ.  He's God.

I do have issue with Mohammed being considered a prophet.  That is definitely another thread.
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« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2013, 07:57:24 AM »

I never was "hmm har"  about Islam.  There were some Muslim girls in school I was attracted to, so I learned more about Islam.  I have a Koran and Hadith (don't know which one off the top of my head) with both the Arabic and English side-by-side.  To me, even with the close call of falling in love with a Muslim girl and considering conversion, I still had massive doubts about Islam.  Re-reading the Scriptures (The Gospels and Psalms, especially), cleared it all up for me.  I always believed Jesus is Lord, the Son of the Living God.  Now I really know.  So, no.  There is no issue of divinity with Jesus Christ.  He's God.

I do have issue with Mohammed being considered a prophet. That is definitely another thread.

Thanks

If you firmly believe in the divinity of Jesus then it is easy to see why you would not believe in the Prophet.
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« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2013, 08:17:09 AM »

Although Muhammad asserted that he was sent as a messenger with a book to confirm (the teaching that the Qur'an functions to correct the former revelations is alien to the Qur'an, but is an indispensable claim of the Islamic tradition) what went before him, there's actually little parallelism between the Bible and the Islamic scripture. Interestingly, it is impossible to understand the Qur'an without studying the Talmud and Christian apocrypha. Most of the teachings that look peculiar to the Qur'an actually came from Rabbinical literature and the non-canonical Gospels of Nativity.

Still, there are a few verses in the Qur'an that are (partly) similar to the verses in the Bible. For instance:

And now have we written in the psalms, after [the promulgation of] the law, that my servants the righteous shall inherit the earth.  (Surah 21:105 Sale)

This verse is indeed from the Book of Psalms:

The godly will possess the land and will dwell in it permanently. (Psalm 37:29)

Now some similarities between the New Testament and the Qur'an:

#1
So the Lord replied, “If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this black mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled out by the roots and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you." (Luke 17:6)

O my son, verily [every matter, whether good or bad], though it be of the weight of a grain of mustard-seed, and be [hidden] in a rock, or in the heavens, or in the earth, God will bring the same [to light]; for God [is] clear-sighted [and] knowing. (Surah 31:16 Sale)

#2
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. (Mark 10:25)

Verily they who shall charge our signs with falsehood, and shall proudly reject them, the gates of heaven shall not be opened unto them, neither shall they enter into paradise, until a camel pass trough the eye of a needle; and thus will we reward the wicked doers. (Surah 7:40 Sale)

#3
Then Peter came to him and said, “Lord, how many times must I forgive my brother who sins against me? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “Not seven times, I tell you, but seventy-seven times! (Matthew 18:21-22)

Ask forgiveness for them, or do not ask forgiveness for them; [it will be equal]. If thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times, God will by no means forgive them. This [is the divine pleasure], for that they believe not in God, and his apostle; and God directeth not the ungodly people. (Surah 9:80 Sale) (Muhammad drastically modified this!)

#4
There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

Say, if the sea were ink to [write] the words of my Lord, verily the sea would fail, before the words of my Lord would fail; although we added [another sea] like unto it as a farther supply. (Surah 18:109 Sale) (Similar hyperbole about the word of God)
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« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2013, 08:19:01 AM »


If you firmly believe in the divinity of Jesus then it is easy to see why you would not believe in the Prophet.

It is equally easy for us to see that Abdallah's son denied Yeshua's divinity so that he could declare himself a prophet.
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« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2013, 09:03:23 AM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.
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« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2013, 09:10:25 AM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

THIS!!
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« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2013, 09:12:42 AM »

You were interested in islam?
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« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2013, 09:37:16 AM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

THIS!!
It has some lovely outer aspects. The culture of liberal Islam is pretty cool kind of like the culture of mainstream Christianity doesn't always appeal to me (or is that my lack of contentment with evangelicalism combined with my flesh?). I've read more about Islam than I have read the Quran itself. Not sure I would not feel like I was hopelessly damned if I was a Muslim or anything without some kind of savior/messiah.

I grew up pretty solidly Christian, but after reconsidering the basis of my faith, if I really understand and recognize my own struggles, I don't see how I could be worthy of connecting with in some way without a savior. Hence Judaism holds more theological sway for me, but not the typical idea of messiah that most religious Jews have today. I find evidence that the savior/messiah has come over simply will be coming, and hence remaining Christian but not quite in the same way.
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« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2013, 09:41:15 AM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

This was my experience as well.
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« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2013, 10:52:12 AM »

Hi all, god bless;

Our Lord Jesus Christ came here to this earth with a fourfold witness to himself out of love for us and our salvation as told in the gospels.

"Mehmed",was what? One man in a cave by himself in the sixth century AD who recieved what? a revalation of the condition and proper spiritual direction of mankind with what? "NO WITNESSES?!" other than just himself ?

How many people are aware that Mehmed's wifes uncle interpreted Hebrew script for the local populace?

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« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2013, 11:21:34 AM »


Poppy,

If you trust God, would you be willing to do everything Islam and Muhammed PBUH say to do? Ask yourself this only after you have read everything on your own and come to your own conclusion, not consult an Imam each time.

It's not possible to read everything on my own with Qur'an and Hadith, without consulting a scholar. Neither is it possible to do this with the Aramaic/Hebrew/Koine Greek text. You have to consult scholars. Christians do it every day they read the extras in their study bibles or every time they read an English version of the original text. You do it every time you attend church and hear the sermon/talk and you do it every time you chat with a friend who is more learned than yourself.

To consult someone who spends their time every day studying the text and who is steeped in the culture is     imperative to understanding what you're reading, and as well, in the context it was written. That's why there are schools of fiqh.
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« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2013, 11:27:22 AM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
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« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2013, 11:34:19 AM »


I agree. Most of this thread apparently happened while I was writing my post, and reading subsequent posts it occurs to me that I may have misunderstood its function. I thought the OP was asking for reasons why those who had wondered about the truth of Islam vis-a-vis Christianity came to choose Christianity rather than Islam. If that's not the point, then I'm sorry, OP, for derailing your thread and I too would be interested to read what you found/find compelling in Islam. I have known several Christians of various persuasions who converted to Islam (most did not stay Muslims), but none of them as far as I can remember had either come from or considered Orthodox Christianity prior to becoming Muslims, for whatever that distinction is worth. If I understand one of the replies to your OP correctly, you came back from a visit to Greece with an interest in Islam, which strikes me as interesting since as far as I know Islam has historically been confined to a few minority populations in Greece, and strongly concentrated in a few islands relative to the much larger Eastern Orthodox population of the country. So please do share with us, if you wouldn't mind. I'll try to just absorb your point of view, and ask questions instead of arguing.

It is the point. You got it. Everything else to me is bare long.
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« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2013, 11:36:53 AM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.
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« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2013, 11:39:46 AM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

THIS!!

+1

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« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2013, 11:58:21 AM »

I could list a tonne of stuff but won't,

Would you mind making a list for the rest of us, if we promise not be jerks about it or crazy argumentative?

+1

I can't promise others won't be jerks or crazy argumentative, but knowing that you made up your mind, I at least with orthonorm will promise I won't be a jerk or be crazy argumentative.

I hope everyone in this board knows the meaning of "fishers of men", not "fighters of men".

Mina,

There was another thread where a few of us talked about what drew former Muslims to Islam...I'll dig around and find it in a bit.
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« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2013, 11:59:11 AM »

Dear Poppy,

I congratulate you for learning the Arabic language.  It's beauty probably enhanced your reading of the Quran and helped you convert.  I guess we all cannot jump to conclusions to criticize or convert until we all learn Arabic and read the Quran in Arabic.

Allah yi bariklik ya okhti.

Mina, a fellow Arabic-speaking akh
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« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2013, 12:00:08 PM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.

Poppy,

I learned Arabic. I was a Salafi manhaj following woman until I learned and read the Quran and Hadith in Arabic...borderline extremist. I hope you do learn Arabic as well and see where it takes you on this journey.
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« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2013, 12:05:23 PM »

Poppy has grown up! Where is the lo0l?

I don't know how anyone can read Islamic texts without being well versed in Arabic. Surely you would run into problems.
That's why Muslims serious about their deen learn Arabic. Arabic is not that difficult to learn. The pronunciation sucks but the rest is ok.

....ok my pronunciation sucks.

Poppy,

I learned Arabic. I was a Salafi manhaj following woman until I learned and read the Quran and Hadith in Arabic...borderline extremist. I hope you do learn Arabic as well and see where it takes you on this journey.

Salafis...my favorite people  Lips Sealed
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