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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 14372 times) Average Rating: 5
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #315 on: November 02, 2013, 03:07:22 PM »

LOL! Cyrillic and I were reply buddies on that one.
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« Reply #316 on: November 02, 2013, 03:08:03 PM »

The Theos is Zeus.

No. Apollon was theos too... All gods were addressed as o god from time to time.
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« Reply #317 on: November 02, 2013, 03:09:41 PM »

If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

Christians don't think that God has partners or co-equals.

I know, sorry. Mina already said that to me, no disrespect meant, I just am on auto not to even say what you do believe. It just feels like I am saying something so badly wrong to share God's glory with another.

(I know it's not rli "another", just another personality kind of)
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« Reply #318 on: November 02, 2013, 03:10:18 PM »


Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.


Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin

The problem with that is Allah is Aramaic word that was used of the God of Israel before Islam.

Syriac Orthodox Hymn: Shlom Lekh, 'Hail Mary'

Eh...sort of. Not that Theophilos' stance isn't still wrong, but as you'll notice, the corresponding term for "Allah" in the West Syriac dialect that you hear in that video is "Aloho" (e.g., mother of God is "eme Aloho"). The East Syriac is "Alaha". I don't think think the medial L is geminated in either form (perhaps someone who can read Syriac in the original will either confirm or correct this). Now, since the formation of 'Allah" is a little abnormal relative to the usual triconsonantal system of Semitic languages (i.e., it's not a geminated root L that gives us "ll", but rather fusing of the article; we can tell this since the shadda is still placed over the L, making an excruciatingly proper pronunciation overly long, something like "Alllah"; I don't think anyone actually does this outside of recitation, though), it doesn't so much apply in this case, but normally gemination is contrastive in Semitic languages, even in those that do not mark it orthographically (e.g., Amharic ale/alle 'he said/there is'). So Aloho/Alaha would not normally be considered the same as Allah, even if we ignore the internal vowel changes. The two definitely cognates, but as far as I know "Allah" is not a word in Syriac/Aramaic (though I don't doubt that every speaker would know what you mean).
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« Reply #319 on: November 02, 2013, 03:13:29 PM »

The Theos is Zeus.

No. Apollon was theos too... All gods were addressed as o god from time to time.

And we believe in one 'Theon: Patera Pantokratora'. So I don't see your point.
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« Reply #320 on: November 02, 2013, 03:14:25 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It would be number 1 on my list of traits that I want in my life. It is the very heart of worship and the core of humility.



This reminds me of a time when my spiritual father asked me a trick question:  "How many times a day should we pray?" Thinking of the rules of the book of prayer of the hours, I said "7!"  He told me, "wrong, my son!  We're not a legalistic Church.  We have 7 recommended hours, but the ideal of the Christian spiritual life is that we "pray without ceasing" (1 Thes. 5:17).  Indeed, it's a beautiful thing to unceasingly pray to God in everything we do.

I think you'll like the same idea also in our Coptic Thanksgiving Prayer we recite daily:

"Oh Master Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, we thank you for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition.  For you have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and have brought us to this very hour.  Therefore, we ask and entreat your goodness, oh Lover of mankind, grant us to complete this holy day, and all the days of our lives in all peace with your fear.  All envy, all temptation, all the working of Satan, all the council of wicked men, and the rising up of enemies, hidden or manifest, take them away from us, from all Your people, from Your Church, and from Your Holy Altar in Your Church.  But those things which are good and profitable for us do provide for us.  For it is You who has given us the authority to trample down serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy."



Slight tangent but, I don't really see a victorious Christian Church. Can you explain what's that about please?
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« Reply #321 on: November 02, 2013, 03:17:17 PM »

Slight tangent but, I don't really see a victorious Christian Church. Can you explain what's that about please?
I gotta be honest, if there is one thing that has tripped me up from time to time, it's the whole "the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church".

And all the splintered Protestant denominations out there? The schism with the RC and Odox?

It hardly looks "victorious". I know we are all fallen human beings, but still. I've rationalized it, however sophmorically.
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« Reply #322 on: November 02, 2013, 03:19:38 PM »

Gates defend, they don't attack.
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« Reply #323 on: November 02, 2013, 03:20:08 PM »

I gotta be honest, if there is one thing that has tripped me up from time to time, it's the whole "the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church".

And all the splintered Protestant denominations out there? The schism with the RC and Odox?

It hardly looks "victorious". I know we are all fallen human beings, but still. I've rationalized it, however sophmorically.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? (Luke 18:8 )
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« Reply #324 on: November 02, 2013, 03:22:27 PM »

I gotta be honest, if there is one thing that has tripped me up from time to time, it's the whole "the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church".

And all the splintered Protestant denominations out there? The schism with the RC and Odox?

It hardly looks "victorious". I know we are all fallen human beings, but still. I've rationalized it, however sophmorically.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? (Luke 18:8 )

Not among judaising evangelicals.
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« Reply #325 on: November 02, 2013, 03:22:42 PM »

The Christians' ultimate victory is on the last day, while we were certainly promised tribulations before that. I know that Islam in some ways sees its victory over all other religions in very temporal terms (while also concerning itself with final judgment, of course), but what can I say...you can't fit Christians pegs in Islamic holes, or vice versa.

The Church is victorious every time a sinner returns, every time a convert is received, every time the true body and blood of our Savior is given to us, every time a new house of worship is consecrated, every time the Gospel is proclaimed, every time a martyr is crowned, etc. Perhaps you don't see these things because Islam sees victory in different terms, but they're still how we measure things. The kingdom of God is not of this world, but where and when it counts, the Church is victorious, and will always be victorious.
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« Reply #326 on: November 02, 2013, 03:25:14 PM »

Not among judaising evangelicals.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22)
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« Reply #327 on: November 02, 2013, 03:29:47 PM »

Not among judaising evangelicals.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11)
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« Reply #328 on: November 02, 2013, 03:30:59 PM »

Actually, when you say Allah, you make it clear that you are referring to the chief god of Meccan polytheism, the Father of Allat.  Grin

Allat simply means "the goddess" - just as Allah means "the god":  alʾilāt < allāt, Allāt. Neither are proper names originally.
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« Reply #329 on: November 02, 2013, 03:34:02 PM »

You said you were bowing out of this thread.

Just because one thing is true, (ie..committing oneself knowing the consequences of leaving Islam), It doesn't make everything else, untrue (ie...the love and mercy or Allah, subhana wa ta 3la)

And now I'm back, is there a problem with that? No it does not make everything else untrue, I am saying it is invalidating itself by saying one thing then another in a different section. It is like if I say I'm one thing and then the next day I am another. It doesn't change the basics about me but it does make it hard for others to believe stuff I say.

Yea, problem being that, you've been insulting, hostile and shallow in your replies, so nothing you can post after that, could be helpful to me, which is entirely the point of this thread.

Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all.

Any reply to this post, Poppy?

No because Poppy thinks if one knows the full consequence of committing to Islam and leaving....RIP. She mentioned so in a quote of one of my replies. To worship a God who demands that a person's life be ended for leaving the faith versus one that allows repentance and true forgiveness seems like madness to me. There is no love and mercy in murder. The relationship between the Christian view of God to the faithful is a loving, caring one where God in Islam is to be feared, to be pleased. I suppose now that my stress is over here (thank goodness) I can reply with some conviction and sense finally.

See, this is what I mean about you.... hostile. Unnecessarily. I already explained why I didn't reply yet, to LBK.

I am not here to promote Islam so stop attacking. I am here to ask about others' experiences. You gave yours. Thanks.
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« Reply #330 on: November 02, 2013, 03:40:51 PM »

so nothing you can post after that, could be helpful to me, which is entirely the point of this thread.

What do you want us to help you with? Leave islam?
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« Reply #331 on: November 02, 2013, 03:43:27 PM »

so nothing you can post after that, could be helpful to me, which is entirely the point of this thread.

What do you want us to help you with? Leave islam?

Some people have done it already, as I asked in the OP. I am just working through their words in detail so that I don't miss anything. Thanks for asking.
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« Reply #332 on: November 02, 2013, 03:48:11 PM »

Not among judaising evangelicals.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned. (Titus 3:10-11)

lol Prooftexting fight!
Quote from: Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law; judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
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« Reply #333 on: November 02, 2013, 03:50:28 PM »



I'mma smite you good, heathen.
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« Reply #334 on: November 02, 2013, 03:52:22 PM »



I'mma smite you good, heathen.

Deus Vult.
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« Reply #335 on: November 02, 2013, 04:07:22 PM »

Well, to be fair (much fairer to Islam than Islam is to anything, including apostates), it is written in the Psalms that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, though that's just it: it's the beginning, not the end. I've never been Muslim (almajdulilah/Glory be to God), but it seems to me from what Muslims like Poppy write, Islam never gets past this beginning. Maybe it can't because the relationship with God is so different? I dunno. I would count this as another indictment against the religion, and particularly the "killing people for their own good" idea that Poppy has introduced -- in the same way that killing people for their own good robs them of their ability to repent, killing them also robs them of their ability to grow in love for God, which is of course fundamental to repentance. Y'know, if I had killed myself at my first sign of spiritual trouble in the RCC, I would've never found Orthodoxy...I wonder if Poppy would be so understanding about converts to Islam being killed, as has been known to happen sometimes (though much more rarely than to converts from Islam).

It comes down to God. There are a tonne of hard concepts and accounts equally in Islam as there are in Christianity. That's why when both sides get together,it invariably comes down to each side expecting the other to have the answers to the well worn questions that comes up from each side. One of which (in Islam) is the killing of people for leaving Islam.

I know about this, I was aware of it before I took my shahada (promise to only follow Allah عز و جل)

I have interested thoughts about this, as I do many other aspects of Islam that ppl find difficult to understand. But i'm not free to discuss it as I know where doing that get's us both, mostly often, no where productive.

If God wills it, another thread? Sure, but not this one because I rli need to concentrate on my purpose here for now and focus on what I need from you ppl.

I'm rli not dogging this stuff ok? It's serious, I know that and valid. Just that I would be flooded with it all as one thing leads to another, valid topics in Islam that is hard to understand. Same with Christianity if you were on a Muslim forum.
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« Reply #336 on: November 02, 2013, 04:14:30 PM »

Why did you become a muslim?
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« Reply #337 on: November 02, 2013, 04:17:03 PM »

I have interested thoughts about this, as I do many other aspects of Islam that ppl find difficult to understand. But i'm not free to discuss it as I know where doing that get's us both, mostly often, no where productive.

If God wills it, another thread?

Okay. If you want to make another thread to discuss these other matters, go ahead. I can't promise I'll post in it, but I agree that this thread has kind of become bogged down in other issues, so it's probably worth another thread so that you can discuss these other issues with people who want to discuss them and not the other topics that are entertained in this thread. I want to apologize for having engaged in some of that myself, by the way. I'll try to stay on topic from now on.
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« Reply #338 on: November 02, 2013, 04:20:42 PM »

Why did you become a muslim?

Not sure what Poppy's reasons were, but I saw this a while ago, about British girls converting to Islam:

Make Me a Muslim - BBC Documentary, part 2 of 3
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« Reply #339 on: November 02, 2013, 04:30:24 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?

Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

It's not just some superficial (ugh what's the term for the ppl with all vintage clothes and big glasses - fgot) well it's not just for some dumb reason. It's like transubstantiation and how the Orthodox don't use that word because it means something specific which isn't quite what you believe. But you don't have another word for that process so, you just say it's a mystery. But you don't use that word for that reason. It's not correct and it would be misleading depending on who was listening. Like ppl would think you were Catholic if they heard you use it. (If i remember right). But if I said God willing, everyone would think me Christian who heard it plus it's not correct for what I want to express. Plus it's not a statement for the hearer but for the speaker.

LBK, (in sha'Allah) will reply to it after out and back. Got to get some food in.



Poppy,

I did say God has no partners or co-equals.  In fact, we as Arab Christians also use "Allah".  In John chapter 1, it is written,  "فِي البَدْءِ كانَ الكَلِمَةُ   مَوْجُوداً، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ مَعَ اللهِ، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهَ."  Fi al bidaya (In the beginning) kan el Kalima (was the Word), mawgoodan (exists) wa kan al Kalima ma'a Allah (and the Word was with God), wa kan al Kalima howa Allah (and the Word was God)."

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

How can we call each "fully God"?  Take the analogy of the Sun.  If you can visualize the orb of the sun, you can identify it as the Sun.  If a blind man can feel warm in the morning, He will mention he is warmed by the Sun, or warmed by the Heat of the Sun, both meaning the same thing.  If a man from the dark comes out and sees because of light, He sees by the Sun, or He sees by the Light of the Sun.  The orb is Sun, the Light is Sun, the Heat is Sun, and these three are One Sun.

A consuming fire in Deuteronomy 4 and Exodus 24.

I remember from reading that there is no where a person can go where God cannot be there (Psalm139) so If I read that Qur'an searching for truth then if God can be there in hell, God can show me the truth of Himself even in a book that you do not believe to be truth. True mina?
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« Reply #340 on: November 02, 2013, 04:32:47 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?

Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

It's not just some superficial (ugh what's the term for the ppl with all vintage clothes and big glasses - fgot) well it's not just for some dumb reason. It's like transubstantiation and how the Orthodox don't use that word because it means something specific which isn't quite what you believe. But you don't have another word for that process so, you just say it's a mystery. But you don't use that word for that reason. It's not correct and it would be misleading depending on who was listening. Like ppl would think you were Catholic if they heard you use it. (If i remember right). But if I said God willing, everyone would think me Christian who heard it plus it's not correct for what I want to express. Plus it's not a statement for the hearer but for the speaker.

LBK, (in sha'Allah) will reply to it after out and back. Got to get some food in.



Poppy,

I did say God has no partners or co-equals.  In fact, we as Arab Christians also use "Allah".  In John chapter 1, it is written,  "فِي البَدْءِ كانَ الكَلِمَةُ   مَوْجُوداً، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ مَعَ اللهِ، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهَ."  Fi al bidaya (In the beginning) kan el Kalima (was the Word), mawgoodan (exists) wa kan al Kalima ma'a Allah (and the Word was with God), wa kan al Kalima howa Allah (and the Word was God)."

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

How can we call each "fully God"?  Take the analogy of the Sun.  If you can visualize the orb of the sun, you can identify it as the Sun.  If a blind man can feel warm in the morning, He will mention he is warmed by the Sun, or warmed by the Heat of the Sun, both meaning the same thing.  If a man from the dark comes out and sees because of light, He sees by the Sun, or He sees by the Light of the Sun.  The orb is Sun, the Light is Sun, the Heat is Sun, and these three are One Sun.

A consuming fire in Deuteronomy 4 and Exodus 24.

I remember from reading that there is no where a person can go where God cannot be there (Psalm139) so If I read that Qur'an searching for truth then if God can be there in hell, God can show me the truth of Himself even in a book that you do not believe to be truth. True mina?

God can do anything he wants. The question is whether you trust the Bible over the Qur'an and Muhammad over all of the other Prophets. I cannot trust that.
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« Reply #341 on: November 02, 2013, 04:35:42 PM »



Okay. If you want to make another thread to discuss these other matters, go ahead. I can't promise I'll post in it, but I agree that this thread has kind of become bogged down in other issues, so it's probably worth another thread so that you can discuss these other issues with people who want to discuss them and not the other topics that are entertained in this thread. I want to apologize for having engaged in some of that myself, by the way. I'll try to stay on topic from now on.

I don't rli have any interest atm in another thread but, I wanted to offer, in case you wanted to, (in sha'Allah) I would have tried to discuss in both.
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« Reply #342 on: November 02, 2013, 04:57:15 PM »

If God wills it

 Kiss

Thank you.
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« Reply #343 on: November 02, 2013, 05:31:40 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It would be number 1 on my list of traits that I want in my life. It is the very heart of worship and the core of humility.



This reminds me of a time when my spiritual father asked me a trick question:  "How many times a day should we pray?" Thinking of the rules of the book of prayer of the hours, I said "7!"  He told me, "wrong, my son!  We're not a legalistic Church.  We have 7 recommended hours, but the ideal of the Christian spiritual life is that we "pray without ceasing" (1 Thes. 5:17).  Indeed, it's a beautiful thing to unceasingly pray to God in everything we do.

I think you'll like the same idea also in our Coptic Thanksgiving Prayer we recite daily:

"Oh Master Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, we thank you for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition.  For you have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and have brought us to this very hour.  Therefore, we ask and entreat your goodness, oh Lover of mankind, grant us to complete this holy day, and all the days of our lives in all peace with your fear.  All envy, all temptation, all the working of Satan, all the council of wicked men, and the rising up of enemies, hidden or manifest, take them away from us, from all Your people, from Your Church, and from Your Holy Altar in Your Church.  But those things which are good and profitable for us do provide for us.  For it is You who has given us the authority to trample down serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy."



Slight tangent but, I don't really see a victorious Christian Church. Can you explain what's that about please?

Victory is not by what you see, but by faith.  We see many divisions in Christianity, yes, but we believe in one Church.  Just as there are many divisions in Islam, but you believe there's one correct school of thought.  Victory is not in the physical, but in the spiritual, in the heart.

And since demons are spirits, we need spiritual victory.  And by the name of God, we are allowed to subdue all the spiritual enemies.  Only by the name of God are we given authority over the demons.
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« Reply #344 on: November 02, 2013, 05:35:31 PM »

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have.

In old letters you can still find the acronym D.V., Deo volente - God willing.

It's beautiful isn't it? The remembrance of God in all we do.

It is. However is silly to do it in Arabic. Why not "God willing" instead of "insha Allah"?

Because illah means God so, it's not the same thing that I would be saying. If I say God willing, it's ambiguous but if I say Allah (swt) then I am making it clear that I am referring to The God with no partners or co-equals.

It's not just some superficial (ugh what's the term for the ppl with all vintage clothes and big glasses - fgot) well it's not just for some dumb reason. It's like transubstantiation and how the Orthodox don't use that word because it means something specific which isn't quite what you believe. But you don't have another word for that process so, you just say it's a mystery. But you don't use that word for that reason. It's not correct and it would be misleading depending on who was listening. Like ppl would think you were Catholic if they heard you use it. (If i remember right). But if I said God willing, everyone would think me Christian who heard it plus it's not correct for what I want to express. Plus it's not a statement for the hearer but for the speaker.

LBK, (in sha'Allah) will reply to it after out and back. Got to get some food in.



Poppy,

I did say God has no partners or co-equals.  In fact, we as Arab Christians also use "Allah".  In John chapter 1, it is written,  "فِي البَدْءِ كانَ الكَلِمَةُ   مَوْجُوداً، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ مَعَ اللهِ، وَكانَ الكَلِمَةُ هُوَ اللهَ."  Fi al bidaya (In the beginning) kan el Kalima (was the Word), mawgoodan (exists) wa kan al Kalima ma'a Allah (and the Word was with God), wa kan al Kalima howa Allah (and the Word was God)."

This is a way of saying that Allah, who is the "first and the last", mentions how before all ages, was the Mind of Allah.  Before we were created, Allah thought of all of us.  Of course, Allah does not have a mind like we have a mind, but in eternity, in His infiniteness, we talk about and acknowledge the distinctness of the Mind of Allah and how this Mind is truly Allah.  He reveals to us His Mind through Jesus.  We believe in One God (Illah Wahid), His Mind, and His Spirit, who was breathed into all of Mankind (Surah 15.29).

And why is this important for Christians?  Because if we take every attribute or name of God, we recognize in this attribute three necessary things, the source of the attribute, the eternal framework or thought in the attribute, the action or life the attribute that is bestowed on creation.  Everywhere in the Quran, you read about Allah, His thought emanating from His eternal Mind, and His action emanating from His eternal Spirit.  This is the Trinity.

How can we call each "fully God"?  Take the analogy of the Sun.  If you can visualize the orb of the sun, you can identify it as the Sun.  If a blind man can feel warm in the morning, He will mention he is warmed by the Sun, or warmed by the Heat of the Sun, both meaning the same thing.  If a man from the dark comes out and sees because of light, He sees by the Sun, or He sees by the Light of the Sun.  The orb is Sun, the Light is Sun, the Heat is Sun, and these three are One Sun.

A consuming fire in Deuteronomy 4 and Exodus 24.

I remember from reading that there is no where a person can go where God cannot be there (Psalm139) so If I read that Qur'an searching for truth then if God can be there in hell, God can show me the truth of Himself even in a book that you do not believe to be truth. True mina?

God is omnipresent yes.  He is present at all times and at all places.  But that doesn't mean He's present in all religions.  There's a difference between the omnipresence of God, and agreeing with texts of a different religion that pertains to one's belief.  Otherwise, it makes no difference for us whether we are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Jew.  Might as well be a moral atheist and still find God's presence in that belief.  No?
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« Reply #345 on: November 02, 2013, 05:36:03 PM »

The far-Eastern religions like Buddhism are a lot cooler than the Abrahamic faiths, tbh. However, once you get past the watered-down atheistic White hipster version of them, they lose their charm. I still think that Theravada Buddhism is more similar to Orthodoxy in regards to spirituality than Western Christianity & Islam are. But the whole reincarnation thing really ticks me off because it sounds like a similar capitalistic apology for ignoring the suffering of others similar to the Calvinist ethic of Protestantism.
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« Reply #346 on: November 02, 2013, 05:58:40 PM »

You said you were bowing out of this thread.

Just because one thing is true, (ie..committing oneself knowing the consequences of leaving Islam), It doesn't make everything else, untrue (ie...the love and mercy or Allah, subhana wa ta 3la)

And now I'm back, is there a problem with that? No it does not make everything else untrue, I am saying it is invalidating itself by saying one thing then another in a different section. It is like if I say I'm one thing and then the next day I am another. It doesn't change the basics about me but it does make it hard for others to believe stuff I say.

Yea, problem being that, you've been insulting, hostile and shallow in your replies, so nothing you can post after that, could be helpful to me, which is entirely the point of this thread.

Another indirect consequence of being a murderer is that you close the door on any possible repentance on the part of the apostate. Just who the heck are you or any Muslim, individually or collectively, to be doing that, if Islam is indeed full of mercy and love? No, this is not adding up at all.

Any reply to this post, Poppy?

No because Poppy thinks if one knows the full consequence of committing to Islam and leaving....RIP. She mentioned so in a quote of one of my replies. To worship a God who demands that a person's life be ended for leaving the faith versus one that allows repentance and true forgiveness seems like madness to me. There is no love and mercy in murder. The relationship between the Christian view of God to the faithful is a loving, caring one where God in Islam is to be feared, to be pleased. I suppose now that my stress is over here (thank goodness) I can reply with some conviction and sense finally.

See, this is what I mean about you.... hostile. Unnecessarily. I already explained why I didn't reply yet, to LBK.

I am not here to promote Islam so stop attacking. I am here to ask about others' experiences. You gave yours. Thanks.

I'm far from hostile, insulting or any other thing you have described me as although you can believe I am holding myself back from it...

Here is another experience I had. I was beaten for years by my former husband and accepted it. Islam said it was OK, it is in the Quran so I took it because I wanted to not always wear black and keep a non-Muslim friend. Women are told obey, and if they were to worship anyone but Allah it should be the husband since he is her heaven or hell (I forget exact wording). Since you want a not-shallow, reference backed source here it is.

Qur'an (4:34): "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

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« Reply #347 on: November 02, 2013, 06:01:06 PM »

It seems to me she's interpreting the verse as not advocating a corporal capital punishment of an apostate, but a capital divine punishment in the afterlife of an apostate, in saying "comes down to the mercy of Allah".

I'm sorry to come back to this (I'll drop it after this post, unless she responds herself), but isn't the effect the same? Dead is dead either way, and after death there is no repentance. I've been writing about effects because Poppy wrote about the side-effect of the murder (or some such), so I'm writing about other effects of that mindset that I think reveal something of the wide chasm between Christianity and Islam, which make it difficult to understand where Muslims are seeing this abundance of love and mercy in their religion (don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be there, I just don't see it).


I sympathize with the urge to question those verses.  But there's a time and a place for those.  At the same time, I really do believe it's more edifying for our souls to defend and clarify our faith, "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you" (1 Peter 3:15).  Let us not make the faith be about what the other religion isn't, but about what the gospel is.

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Whatever the case may be, I don't think it's for her benefit that we waste our time on the usual polemics against Islam.

To be frank, I don't it's to anyone's benefit that they convert to Islam in the first place. Call that polemical if you want, but I too have been having these discussions with Muslims (both neophytes and born Muslims) for years, and the only substantial headway I have made has come about when (a) I've alerted them to the native expressions of Christianity as it is in the Middle Eastern land of its birth (which is helpful to dispel the myth that Christianity is somehow a "Western" religion), and (b) they've seen in my approach an uncompromising defense of the faith, as there are likewise some who see us as weak not only theologically, but in terms of our commitment to our religion (this came up a lot in the wake of the Muhammad cartoon debacle a few years ago, when they kept trying to say "But you don't understand the depth of our feelings towards our religion and our prophet, since you're a Christian and Christians don't care about their religion" -- it was then that I first began invoking the idea that Muslims don't have or get to have more feelings than the rest of us, which I have repeated on this board as necessary; either we're both made of the same "stuff", or they're something different and ultimately worse for the violent irrationality displayed by the worst of them in defense of their religion, and therefore all of them should be treated accordingly, since it is not in our interest to wait to be murdered by those who think they are acting in service of God just because not all of them would do that [to be clear, this is a polemic to make a point; I don't believe Muslims are ultimately any different than the rest of us, even if they think they are the best of creatures or whatever the exact Qur'anic wording is]).


I bolded three parts here.  The first part is a given.  I think Muslims would be just as sad (or violently angry depending on who you talk to) for anyone leaving their faith.  It makes no difference to let them know that you're sad they left the faith.  Just engage with them anyway.  If you can't, you can't, then ignore and pray for them.  But what difference does it make when you make known to them how unbeneficial it is for them to join a religion you strongly disagree with?  Do you think they don't know that?

The second part you pointed at is of utmost importance!  Let them rave about how we don't walk the talk.  It's true a lot of the times.  I'm convinced that if it wasn't for the schisms of the 5th century, Islam would have a very difficult time growing.  We reap what we sow.

I know the urge to lash back and show them how they too have their own bad apples, but fight hard against the urge.  Take the humble road, even on the third part I bolded, take the humble road.  "Yes, we have our bad apples, and yes, I don't know how it feels to know your religion, but I know how it feels to believe in Christ, and I'd like to share that with you."  I would hope the good among them would be impressed by that humble approach.  It's more inviting.

And I'm not saying that humble discussions will convert them.  I'm not going to leave here in the forums with the hope that I've accomplished a good defense and that I am sure that someone will convert.  Please...I'm not that delusional.  I only am doing what I feel is a Christian behavior, and only God will stir hearts in the end.  In fact, I am convinced it's not the discussions that turns one into a Christian, it's the behavior that I convey.  If I act like a Christian, I will surely become fishers of men.  But if I condemn someone who is already convinced that my faith is wrong, then I only push them further away.

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the most fruitful of discussions are ones that rely on the theological thoughts of the respective religions and more so the defense and clarification of our Christian faith in a loving way and a way that we can try to help a Muslim relate to the faith.

We speak very different theological languages, so while this is great when it is possible, I am not sure that I agree that it is always the source of the most fruitful discussions. You tell a Muslim that we believe in one God, and they just revert to the same Islamic distortion about our faith and how we have associated others with God. They really cannot countenance that the truth may be as the Christian puts it about our own belief, as that would mean that the Qur'an (and hence Muhammad and Allah) are wrong about something, and the whole house of cards just collapses (since Islam is built around "the book"). You've seen it in this very thread, in your own continued attempts to correct Poppy regarding Christian theology. You really think Muslims, particularly neophytes all fired up about their newest unchanging truth, are going to take correction from those they see their new religion as being the supreme corrector of? Please, Mina...

So what if they revert?  I tried my best, but I'm not going to revert to the same tactics that they use.  What difference does it make that I stoop to the level that continues to misrepresent someone's beliefs (I'm not talking about official beliefs of Islam, but a particular person's beliefs).  When you get to the root of it all, you still want to have a discussion with the person, not a discussion with a religion.  Let them revert, but I think this is the greatest opportunity where we can show forth our Christian behavior that we don't need to respond to their misrepresentations of our faith by misrepresenting their own PERSONAL beliefs.  As much as the urge is there, resist it, because it's our actions, not our arguments, that will win hearts.
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« Reply #348 on: November 02, 2013, 06:04:11 PM »

Here is another experience I had. I was beaten for years by my former husband and accepted it. Islam said it was OK, it is in the Quran so I took it because I wanted to not always wear black and keep a non-Muslim friend. Women are told obey, and if they were to worship anyone but Allah it should be the husband since he is her heaven or hell (I forget exact wording). Since you want a not-shallow, reference backed source here it is.

Qur'an (4:34): "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

No offense, but if you're going to accuse Islam of misogyny, you may want to check up on what our Orthodox Fathers have to say about women as well. St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today. Canon law also says Jesus' words that two people can divorce on the grounds of sexual immorality only applies to men. In other words, a man can divorce his cheating wife but a wife is expected to stay with her cheating husband.
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« Reply #349 on: November 02, 2013, 06:10:53 PM »

St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today.

Citation needed.
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« Reply #350 on: November 02, 2013, 06:14:56 PM »

Here is another experience I had. I was beaten for years by my former husband and accepted it. Islam said it was OK, it is in the Quran so I took it because I wanted to not always wear black and keep a non-Muslim friend. Women are told obey, and if they were to worship anyone but Allah it should be the husband since he is her heaven or hell (I forget exact wording). Since you want a not-shallow, reference backed source here it is.

Qur'an (4:34): "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

No offense, but if you're going to accuse Islam of misogyny, you may want to check up on what our Orthodox Fathers have to say about women as well. St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today. Canon law also says Jesus' words that two people can divorce on the grounds of sexual immorality only applies to men. In other words, a man can divorce his cheating wife but a wife is expected to stay with her cheating husband.

I'm well aware, James. I wasn't accusing of misogyny though it may have come off that way, just pointing out something. I've yet to see (though everything is probably out there these days) an abusive relationship where someone said Christianity allowed it. I have come across more of these in the Muslim community than I have fingers and toes. I'll resume lurking and see what more comes up here or if it fizzles out.

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« Reply #351 on: November 02, 2013, 06:20:51 PM »

St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today.

Citation needed.

"For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre,"-St. John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #352 on: November 02, 2013, 06:23:30 PM »

...

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« Reply #353 on: November 02, 2013, 06:23:50 PM »

I've yet to see (though everything is probably out there these days) an abusive relationship where someone said Christianity allowed it.

Only it does.

Jesus Himself only allowed divorce in the case of sexual immorality, and even then, the Church believes that only men possess the right to divorce their wives on the grounds of sexual immorality, not the other way around. A woman is not allowed to leave an abusive marriage in any circumstances.
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« Reply #354 on: November 02, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)

She seems to be at peace with this teaching as she writes " Allah, knows best"

 والله أعلم

Means that even when we do give any answer, we are recognising, in that moment we speak as one with knowledge, that God is all source of knowledge. It's a humility thing, to stop someone getting up theirself and also, to remember God in that exact moment.

A bit like when we say, in sha'Allah (if Allah wills it). Humility/remembrance

It is also told that Christians should say that too (God willing - I can get the ref if you need it) every time they speak of future events or plans they have. It is remembrance that God is provider of all our days.




And no Tamara, there was no bloke involved with my reversion.
It don't really insult me, what you said, but rather more yourself, at the arrogance of your thoughts and the indictment that you place on our sex.

Then what do you mean when you wrote, "death is viewed as way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving them from themselves" ? You were responding to what Muslims do to apostates.

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« Reply #355 on: November 02, 2013, 06:25:03 PM »

and even then, the Church believes that only men possess the right to divorce their wives on the grounds of sexual immorality, not the other way around. A woman is not allowed to leave an abusive marriage in any circumstances.

Wut?
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« Reply #356 on: November 02, 2013, 06:25:18 PM »

St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today.

Citation needed.

"For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre,"-St. John Chrysostom.

James, please give the exact place where St. John Chrysostom wrote this.  Thank you!
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« Reply #357 on: November 02, 2013, 06:25:57 PM »

and even then, the Church believes that only men possess the right to divorce their wives on the grounds of sexual immorality, not the other way around. A woman is not allowed to leave an abusive marriage in any circumstances.

Wut?

St. Basil the Great's Canon makes it very clear that only a man can divorce his wife and that a wife is not allowed to divorce her husband, even in the case of sexual immorality.
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« Reply #358 on: November 02, 2013, 06:26:07 PM »

St. John Chrysostom has said many politically incorrect things about women being inferior and their sole purpose being to glorify their husbands and bear children that would earn him many a slap across the face by feminists if he were alive today.

Citation needed.

"For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre,"-St. John Chrysostom.

You omitted the source, hence I cannot verify the context.

If the quote were authentic, do you suppose that St. John viewed all women this way (the Theotokos, his own mother, Olympias the deaconess, etc), or is this a hyperbolic description of a particular type of woman? If the latter, you may be pleased to know that he describes drunken males, for instance, in similar terms.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:29:17 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #359 on: November 02, 2013, 06:27:12 PM »


"For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre,"-St. John Chrysostom.

This must be another John Chrysostom.  Shocked

If not, he most likely did not know that God took flesh from a woman!  Huh
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:28:25 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

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