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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 15340 times) Average Rating: 5
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hecma925
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« Reply #225 on: October 31, 2013, 05:51:12 PM »

Well, he didn't brainwash me into becoming a mujahedin and he certainly didn't convince me to convert to Islam. I just admired his eloquence...
He was also a (good?) source of information on the Islamic version of the lives of the Prophets, Muhammad, Muslim martyrs, etc.

Eloquence is subjective.  I saw his stuff too, which is still readily available.  His information could easily be researched.
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« Reply #226 on: October 31, 2013, 05:51:26 PM »

I don't buy into all those silly "He's greater than us, He deserves worship by default" or "But look at the beauty of the world! He deserves worship!" arguments that many mainstream Christian and Muslim apologists make.

I guess St Paul doesn't do it for you?  


In that regard, nope. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein really obliterates the thought that people are entitled to praise and worship just for creating something. Only reason I worship God is because He became one of us.
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« Reply #227 on: October 31, 2013, 05:52:31 PM »

I don't buy into all those silly "He's greater than us, He deserves worship by default" or "But look at the beauty of the world! He deserves worship!" arguments that many mainstream Christian and Muslim apologists make.

I guess St Paul doesn't do it for you?  


In that regard, nope. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein really obliterates the thought that people are entitled to praise and worship just for creating something. Only reason I worship God is because He became one of us.

Frankenstein isn't Scripture.
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« Reply #228 on: October 31, 2013, 06:00:46 PM »


Which is what I think poppy is looking for.


Agreed.  And from this, I'm inclined to believe that Poppy may be sensing something along the same lines as some of us did about Islam: "despite all of its demonstrable beauty, and all of my knowledge of it, something ain't quite right about it" whether she [you] knows it or not at this point.  Barring some odd attempt at proselytizing, I really can't see the need for this thread otherwise.  I've been wrong before though--twice--so you never know.

Although I was never Muslim, Islam was an important step in my religious process (trying to avoid the word journey, path, etc.), and it remains an oddly relevant part of my life, even if it is not my faith.  

I similarly applaud Poppy for her learning and exposure.  I don't think she's currently stopped at the right stop, but that's something she and God will have to sort out.  None of us are likely to convince her of that, but the little intuition that she may have, may eventually do so.
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« Reply #229 on: October 31, 2013, 06:06:18 PM »

Eloquence is subjective.

He spoke with conviction. 

I saw his stuff too, which is still readily available. 

Not all of it.

Censure is the surest way to spur curiosity... One would think the US understands this much.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 06:08:02 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #230 on: October 31, 2013, 06:10:52 PM »

Quote
Although I was never Muslim, Islam was an important step in my religious process (trying to avoid the word journey, path, etc.), and it remains an oddly relevant part of my life, even if it is not my faith. 

This.

Islam helped lead me to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #231 on: October 31, 2013, 06:14:14 PM »

guys, can we put the arguments about the name of God on the relevant thread?

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,54252.0.html

then this thread will be tidier!
 angel

alpo, it's egypt you need to go to get good arabic chant.
send me a personal message when you go so i can hide in your suitcase!
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and the link to the prayer book minasoliman mentioned is here:

http://www.agpeya.org/


Yes, but our friend prefers Arabic, so maybe rather than go to the English site, Poppy would prefer to the listen to the prayers chanted in Arabic?

Here is the prayer of the ninth hour chanted in Arabic by Fariq el-Shahid Abu Fam (the others are available via the same channel). So you don't actually have to go to Arabic to get good Arabic chant...though I do still support stowing Mabsoota away in your suitcase if you go. Grin

It is important to note, in the context of the observation that "Christians should pray the hours", that it's not just an Egyptian or Greek practice. All Orthodox Christians do this. Here is the ninth hour prayed by Syriac Orthodox in Damascus, in their own Syriac language (genetically related to Arabic).
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« Reply #232 on: October 31, 2013, 11:00:23 PM »


I took my shahada and have been attending tafsir classes with the local imaam at masjid for almost 9 months.

The Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, is correcting where, 'the people of the book', have gone into error, so, much of the Qur'an would include strong whiffs of Christianity and Judaism as the predecessors of the Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, such as Musa and Isa, are not regarded as Christians but as Muslims. as you know. So, it would not be a surprise but expected.

Can I ask you how did you reconcile the issue of Jesus, عليه الصلاة والسلام?

That would rli help me to know that, شكرا.
I just want to settle on some answers not to cause fitna.


My previous kind words aside, I missed this whole paragraph. 

It reads like some white suburban rasta trying to be cool with the jargon lingo, mon.  Iree and much respect to you for the learnin' and not causing fitna in babylon by using downpresser words like mosque.
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« Reply #233 on: October 31, 2013, 11:18:01 PM »


I took my shahada and have been attending tafsir classes with the local imaam at masjid for almost 9 months.

The Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, is correcting where, 'the people of the book', have gone into error, so, much of the Qur'an would include strong whiffs of Christianity and Judaism as the predecessors of the Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, such as Musa and Isa, are not regarded as Christians but as Muslims. as you know. So, it would not be a surprise but expected.

Can I ask you how did you reconcile the issue of Jesus, عليه الصلاة والسلام?

That would rli help me to know that, شكرا.
I just want to settle on some answers not to cause fitna.


My previous kind words aside, I missed this whole paragraph. 

It reads like some white suburban rasta trying to be cool with the jargon lingo, mon.  Iree and much respect to you for the learnin' and not causing fitna in babylon by using downpresser words like mosque.

 Grin

*gigglesnort*
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« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2013, 11:20:42 PM »


I took my shahada and have been attending tafsir classes with the local imaam at masjid for almost 9 months.

The Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, is correcting where, 'the people of the book', have gone into error, so, much of the Qur'an would include strong whiffs of Christianity and Judaism as the predecessors of the Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, such as Musa and Isa, are not regarded as Christians but as Muslims. as you know. So, it would not be a surprise but expected.

Can I ask you how did you reconcile the issue of Jesus, عليه الصلاة والسلام?

That would rli help me to know that, شكرا.
I just want to settle on some answers not to cause fitna.


My previous kind words aside, I missed this whole paragraph.  

It reads like some white suburban rasta trying to be cool with the jargon lingo, mon.  Iree and much respect to you for the learnin' and not causing fitna in babylon by using downpresser words like mosque.

This is something I've noticed with a small number of converts to Islam I know. I remember I asked one, who had just got done whining about how her (still Christian) family don't treat her same since she converted to "al-Islaam" why she would speak all in English and emphasize her Americanness, but when it came to the word "God" she always said "Allah". She answered by saying that according to her "deen", that is the right name for God. Then she quoted the Qur'an at me, in Arabic "Qul Huwa Allah..." (Say "He is Allah...")  Roll Eyes

I have been accused on this board at least once by somenone with whom I obviously do not see eye to eye of LARPing by being Coptic Orthodox, but one thing I don't do is throw in random Coptic words when I'm posting when English words will do just fine. It's just so awkward if there isn't a wider context for it...ethowab moly! This is the best oik I've ever had! Thank efnouti it's ernistevin-friendly! Grin
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:22:29 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #235 on: November 01, 2013, 12:14:45 AM »

That's a good idea...

Poppy...Shere nak tasoni! (Hail to you sister)  Wink
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« Reply #236 on: November 01, 2013, 01:40:25 AM »

My previous kind words aside, I missed this whole paragraph. 

It reads like some white suburban rasta trying to be cool with the jargon lingo, mon.  Iree and much respect to you for the learnin' and not causing fitna in babylon by using downpresser words like mosque.

I think it should make us feel better that we're not alone in having "hyperdox" folk.

A professor of mine used to have this student who was extreme feminist/womanist, butch-style haircut, deeply anti-theistic, etc. American. She then transferred and he didn't see her for a year. Then he's at a conference and a woman approaches him wearing a full niqab (see this for differences), and says his name. When he doesn't recognize her, she's like, "But don't you recognize me?" in a Middle Eastern accent, "I was in your such-and-such class." So in a year she converted to Islam, started wearing a niqab, and adopted an accent. She put Herman to shame.
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« Reply #237 on: November 01, 2013, 01:46:36 AM »

My previous kind words aside, I missed this whole paragraph.  

It reads like some white suburban rasta trying to be cool with the jargon lingo, mon.  Iree and much respect to you for the learnin' and not causing fitna in babylon by using downpresser words like mosque.

I think it should make us feel better that we're not alone in having "hyperdox" folk.

A professor of mine used to have this student who was extreme feminist/womanist, butch-style haircut, deeply anti-theistic, etc. American. She then transferred and he didn't see her for a year. Then he's at a conference and a woman approaches him wearing a full niqab (see this for differences), and says his name. When he doesn't recognize her, she's like, "But don't you recognize me?" in a Middle Eastern accent, "I was in your such-and-such class." So in a year she converted to Islam, started wearing a niqab, and adopted an accent. She put Herman to shame.

I was thinking about this yesterday. In a way Islam is fairly similar to Orthodoxy in Western countries in that it offers non-conventional way for being religious. So if one has some antipathy against Western Christianity it can be bybassed by becoming a Muslim (or an Orthodox) since it's strange enough but also familiar enough. In Islam it's even easier as it doesnt't have priests or priesthood so theoretically Muslims are fairly free to choose what they believe in.
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« Reply #238 on: November 01, 2013, 04:14:46 AM »

This thread needs more Sami Yusuf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE84QwZpho4
More Remy

http://youtu.be/liP8uIcUAhI
Just Dance (Saudi Version)
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« Reply #239 on: November 01, 2013, 11:26:09 AM »

There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)



I don't know if this is what you're looking for Poppy, but I can continue if you like.

The Sermon Christ gave in chapters 5-7 are probably one of the most amazing sermons, and its moral teachings carry so much weight to discussion, it would probably take hundreds of pages on this forum.  The essence though is that the moral teachings given here I feel contradict moral teachings in the Quran, not so much that the Quran has wrong moral teachings, but that the sermons of Christ in those chapters carry a "progression" of the Mosaic law to something grander, deeper, more profound.  It is a progression of the maturity of the law that follows along with the maturity of people.  In fact, somewhere in the beginning of the sermon, he said he wouldn't abolish the laws, but "fulfill them", which is a key issue here.  Who is this man that fulfills laws? 

Well, he starts with murder:  "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will subject to judgment."  Jesus is equating anger with murder, and talks about the seriousness of reconciling with a brother or sister.  If have cut relations with a neighbor who used to be your friend, it's practically "murder of the soul", and Jesus teaches how serious you need to take in reconciling with that person:  "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar.  First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."  The Lord does not want your gift unless you are reconciled with your friends.  It is why we are not allowed to receive communion in our liturgies until we are reconciled, or we receive greater judgment in the afterlife. 

He takes people from the corporal murder and teaches them also about spiritual murder.  He does the same with adultery, and talks about adultery with the eye or mind.  He later one gives a stricter judgment on divorce, that it should be very rare, and that if one marries a divorced woman, one is subject to adultery!!!  He then fulfills the law of oaths by telling people NEVER TO MAKE AN OATH to begin with. THEN....and here's the crazy part that none of my Muslim friends ever agree with, and think it's "irrational":

Quote from: Matthew 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This moral theology of Jesus is unbearable for the logical human nature.  How can I Oh Lord, not repay an eye for an eye, or a tooth for a tooth?  Forget torture for torture, why can't even I just even stay away and hate this man who persecuted me?  Jesus said NO!  I previously told you to reconcile with your friends.  BUT NOW...you must also reconcile with your enemies, and if your enemies don't want to reconcile with you, do your enemies the courtesy of loving them, praying for them, going with them the extra mile.  YOU HAVE TO do everything in your power to reconcile with your enemies.  NO LONGER are you allowed to seek revenge.  Vengeance is ONLY the Lord's.  And Jesus gives an IMPOSSIBLE SAYING:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."  This is blasphemy to the ears of a Muslim.  In Islam, God's perfection is beyond reach.  The finite human has no relation to even compare himself to Allah.  BUT JESUS SAID be PERFECT AS ALLAH IS PERFECT.  Allah is "subhana w ta'ala" (glorified and exalted) and Jesus teaches we also should strive to be with Allah "subhana w ta'ala".  Only one of a GODLY authority could say such terrifying words.  Chapter 6 is beautiful, which I'm sure Muslims will like and agree to, but Chapter 7, has another blasphemy.

In Islam, and correct me if I'm wrong Poppy, but I never saw anyone talk about doing something "bi ism Mohamed" ("in the name of Mohamed), but "bismIllah" (in the name of God) is the more proper way of doing things.  Because when doing things "bismIllah", we carry an unquestionable power and authority.  And ONLY Allah we call Him "RAB" (Lord).  As it is written in the Fatiha, "bismIllah el-Rahman aRahim, al hamdullIllah, RAB-ul a'alameen"...which translates "In the name of God, the beneficent and merciful, all thanks to God, the Lord of the worlds."  Jesus likewise calls HIMSELF "Lord" and talks about doing things "in His name:"

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive our demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you.  Away from me, you evildoers!"  (Matthew 7:21-23)

After this whole amazing spiritual sermon, the Jesus towards the end implies He is LORD, and many wonders can be done IN HIS NAME.  Only Allah can say things like that.  That is why I believe Jesus is Allah.  Now it can be argued that Jesus may have condemned those who called him "Lord", but read Chapter 8, and you'll see that Jesus responds to people in need when they call Him Lord.

I can go on and on as we move down the chapters of Matthew if you like me to continue, Poppy.
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« Reply #240 on: November 01, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »

I meant to edit a post, not quote it. Oops.
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« Reply #241 on: November 01, 2013, 04:13:15 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 
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« Reply #242 on: November 01, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.
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« Reply #243 on: November 01, 2013, 05:13:40 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?
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« Reply #244 on: November 01, 2013, 05:13:43 PM »

There's plenty of verses in the Bible.  We can start with the gospel of Matthew, where it gives us a hint of the type of person Jesus was from his childhood.

In Matthew Chapter 1, we find out Christ is born of a Virgin, which never happened in the history of mankind, nor probably will ever happen in the future.  It is remarkable that even the Quran attests to the fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin.  Why do you think he was the only one born of a Virgin, Poppy?

"The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and THEY will call Him "Immanuel" (which means "God with us")." (Matthew 1:23)

And the seeking to WORSHIP the baby Jesus is mentioned in the next chapter:

"Where is the one who was born king of the Jews?  We saw His star when it rose and have come to worship Him." (2:2)

"Go and search carefully for the child.  As soon as you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him." (2:8 )

"On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped Him.  Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold, frankinscence, and myrrh." (2:11)



I don't know if this is what you're looking for Poppy, but I can continue if you like.

The Sermon Christ gave in chapters 5-7 are probably one of the most amazing sermons, and its moral teachings carry so much weight to discussion, it would probably take hundreds of pages on this forum.  The essence though is that the moral teachings given here I feel contradict moral teachings in the Quran, not so much that the Quran has wrong moral teachings, but that the sermons of Christ in those chapters carry a "progression" of the Mosaic law to something grander, deeper, more profound.  It is a progression of the maturity of the law that follows along with the maturity of people.  In fact, somewhere in the beginning of the sermon, he said he wouldn't abolish the laws, but "fulfill them", which is a key issue here.  Who is this man that fulfills laws? 

Well, he starts with murder:  "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will subject to judgment."  Jesus is equating anger with murder, and talks about the seriousness of reconciling with a brother or sister.  If have cut relations with a neighbor who used to be your friend, it's practically "murder of the soul", and Jesus teaches how serious you need to take in reconciling with that person:  "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar.  First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."  The Lord does not want your gift unless you are reconciled with your friends.  It is why we are not allowed to receive communion in our liturgies until we are reconciled, or we receive greater judgment in the afterlife. 

He takes people from the corporal murder and teaches them also about spiritual murder.  He does the same with adultery, and talks about adultery with the eye or mind.  He later one gives a stricter judgment on divorce, that it should be very rare, and that if one marries a divorced woman, one is subject to adultery!!!  He then fulfills the law of oaths by telling people NEVER TO MAKE AN OATH to begin with. THEN....and here's the crazy part that none of my Muslim friends ever agree with, and think it's "irrational":

Quote from: Matthew 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This moral theology of Jesus is unbearable for the logical human nature.  How can I Oh Lord, not repay an eye for an eye, or a tooth for a tooth?  Forget torture for torture, why can't even I just even stay away and hate this man who persecuted me?  Jesus said NO!  I previously told you to reconcile with your friends.  BUT NOW...you must also reconcile with your enemies, and if your enemies don't want to reconcile with you, do your enemies the courtesy of loving them, praying for them, going with them the extra mile.  YOU HAVE TO do everything in your power to reconcile with your enemies.  NO LONGER are you allowed to seek revenge.  Vengeance is ONLY the Lord's.  And Jesus gives an IMPOSSIBLE SAYING:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."  This is blasphemy to the ears of a Muslim.  In Islam, God's perfection is beyond reach.  The finite human has no relation to even compare himself to Allah.  BUT JESUS SAID be PERFECT AS ALLAH IS PERFECT.  Allah is "subhana w ta'ala" (glorified and exalted) and Jesus teaches we also should strive to be with Allah "subhana w ta'ala".  Only one of a GODLY authority could say such terrifying words.  Chapter 6 is beautiful, which I'm sure Muslims will like and agree to, but Chapter 7, has another blasphemy.

In Islam, and correct me if I'm wrong Poppy, but I never saw anyone talk about doing something "bi ism Mohamed" ("in the name of Mohamed), but "bismIllah" (in the name of God) is the more proper way of doing things.  Because when doing things "bismIllah", we carry an unquestionable power and authority.  And ONLY Allah we call Him "RAB" (Lord).  As it is written in the Fatiha, "bismIllah el-Rahman aRahim, al hamdullIllah, RAB-ul a'alameen"...which translates "In the name of God, the beneficent and merciful, all thanks to God, the Lord of the worlds."  Jesus likewise calls HIMSELF "Lord" and talks about doing things "in His name:"

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive our demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you.  Away from me, you evildoers!"  (Matthew 7:21-23)

After this whole amazing spiritual sermon, the Jesus towards the end implies He is LORD, and many wonders can be done IN HIS NAME.  Only Allah can say things like that.  That is why I believe Jesus is Allah.  Now it can be argued that Jesus may have condemned those who called him "Lord", but read Chapter 8, and you'll see that Jesus responds to people in need when they call Him Lord.

I can go on and on as we move down the chapters of Matthew if you like me to continue, Poppy.

No it's ok. Don't waste yourself. I will read it from where you left off. I am still considering the virginity of Maryam as well, which is why I haven't answered yet.

I will ask more from you when I need to. Thanks mina.

May The God of this world reward you for your help to me.
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« Reply #245 on: November 01, 2013, 05:14:50 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?

Sorry,I don't have a penis.
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« Reply #246 on: November 01, 2013, 05:36:55 PM »

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?

Sorry,I don't have a penis.

 Huh

This thread is getting very abstract... Undecided
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« Reply #247 on: November 01, 2013, 05:39:28 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

No it's not incorrect information. Allah only loves Muslims. He hates unbelievers.
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« Reply #248 on: November 01, 2013, 05:42:25 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

No it's not incorrect information. Allah only loves Muslims. He hates unbelievers.

There is plenty love in Islam and mercy and forgiveness.
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« Reply #249 on: November 01, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?

Sorry,I don't have a penis.
Best. Response. EVER

Thank you poppy. I bellowed a laugh.
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« Reply #250 on: November 01, 2013, 05:57:07 PM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 84, No. 57)

It's pretty far from the prodigal son, y'know? We in the Coptic Orthodox tradition pray at the end of every hour to the Lord who "does not desire the death of the sinner, but rather that he returns and lives" and "who calls all to salvation with the promise of the good things to come". In the case of Islam, it seems to relish in the death of the sinner, and hastens to bring it about by any means Islamically permissible. Sad
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« Reply #251 on: November 01, 2013, 07:02:26 PM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
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« Reply #252 on: November 01, 2013, 07:49:53 PM »

I was thinking about this yesterday. In a way Islam is fairly similar to Orthodoxy in Western countries in that it offers non-conventional way for being religious. So if one has some antipathy against Western Christianity it can be bybassed by becoming a Muslim (or an Orthodox) since it's strange enough but also familiar enough.

I've thought this as well.  Very true, from what I've seen.  At the end of the day, many people of varying degrees of knowledge and tolerance relating to Orthodox Christianity will accept it, to a degree, as Christianity.  They may shake their heads and think it's all foreigny or weird, but still Christian.

If you're really after "oohs and ahhs," want some counter-narrative multicultural adventure points, you're seeking to become a puritan sans Xtianity, or just looking to piss off grandpa, go Islam, young man!

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« Reply #253 on: November 01, 2013, 07:56:03 PM »


At the end of the day, many people of varying degrees of knowledge and tolerance relating to Orthodox Christianity will accept it, to a degree, as Christianity.

They may shake their heads and think it's all foreigny or weird, but still Christian. If you're really after "oohs and ahhs," want some counter-narrative multicultural adventure points, you're seeking to become a puritan sans Xtianity, or just looking to piss off grandpa, go Islam, young man!



A perfect analysis!
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« Reply #254 on: November 01, 2013, 08:27:22 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?

Sorry,I don't have a penis.

Oh come on, you know he meant how long have you been Muslim....
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« Reply #255 on: November 01, 2013, 08:37:57 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

No it's not incorrect information. Allah only loves Muslims. He hates unbelievers.

There is plenty love in Islam and mercy and forgiveness.

Yes, there is plenty mentioned I freely admit. And on another page there is mention of what can be done to unbelievers and deemed halal.
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« Reply #256 on: November 01, 2013, 11:29:29 PM »

You said you were bowing out of this thread.

Just because one thing is true, (ie..committing oneself knowing the consequences of leaving Islam), It doesn't make everything else, untrue (ie...the love and mercy or Allah, subhana wa ta 3la)
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« Reply #257 on: November 01, 2013, 11:31:49 PM »

I once considered Islam. I was interested in the history and culture of the islamic world and there was a lot of things I found very beautiful, like the way muslims pray, the quran recitation, the architecture etc. However, in the end, I realised, that what appealed to me about Islam, was the outer aspects. When it came to the actual theology, I just couldn't agree.

 The actual theology is what led me away from Islam.  Islam is a highly ordered and rigid life with a law for almost everything that must be obeyed.  One of the things that struck me was that no matter how many times I set out to be 'good', I realized how quickly I broke a law.  I realized that no matter what, no matter how focused I was or wanted to be, I couldn't do it.  It's a lesson that's 2000 years old.  Then there was the absence of love and forgiveness in Islam.  I don't mean that friends didn't love one another or families didn't love or forgive one another.  Islam itself is void of Love and Forgiveness.  There is only The Law that must be obeyed with dire consequences for not doing so.  The god of Islam seemed to be exactly the god that many people accuse the God of Christianity to be:  cold, distant and waiting for us to screw up.  You just don't hear about how Islam stresses forgiveness because it's not there.  Only the Law.  Case in point; when someone draws a disrespectful picture of Jesus, Christians do get upset for sure, but they more often than not forgive the artist.  Islam seems so insecure that it simply cannot tolerate any disrespect like that.  People actually die simply for drawing a picture of a man.  Say what you want, but there is no love in Islam.  Only The Law that demands to be obeyed. 

Incorrect information. I could give you a tonne of examples but you would only probably shoot them down as isolated examples but they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.  I was a practicing Muslim for just under 10 years.  How long have you?

Sorry,I don't have a penis.

Oh come on, you know he meant how long have you been Muslim....

whoosh, right over your head.
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« Reply #258 on: November 01, 2013, 11:38:49 PM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)
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« Reply #259 on: November 01, 2013, 11:50:16 PM »

In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

That's odd...I was fairly certain that Islam does not believe that one man may save another from anything that he has done...

(Also: That makes my skin crawl. Lord have mercy on the wayward followers of Muhammad.)
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« Reply #260 on: November 01, 2013, 11:54:40 PM »

Not in that way, just indirectly. But death itself isn't viewed as bad or a loss but a gain and one that saves you from an even worse situation.
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« Reply #261 on: November 01, 2013, 11:56:31 PM »

Not in that way. But death itself isn't viewed as bad or a loss but a gain and one that saves you from an even worse situation.

So the murder of an infidel is doing him a favor. Oooo-kayyyyy ....  Shocked Tongue Tongue Angry
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« Reply #262 on: November 01, 2013, 11:58:05 PM »

Death of a Muslim I mean.

War is a whole different thing.
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« Reply #263 on: November 01, 2013, 11:59:54 PM »

I have heard many, many times from my Muslim friends about the boundless love and forgiveness in Islam, but I find it hard to square that impression with the attitude and following command ascribed to its prophet in famous hadiths like this one:

I recently read about some Egyptian scholar who said that not all apostates should be killed but only those who actively proselytize Muslims to some other religion. IMO still wrong but much more understandable position.
In my understanding from the khutbah (kind of like a sermon but more than that) and from my classes and during general conversation with friends, death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

wa Allahu a3lim  (and Allah, knows best)

Poppy, please note the bolded sections.
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« Reply #264 on: November 02, 2013, 12:06:17 AM »

Yea I explained.

If the person goes to Jannah (similar to heaven) as a Muslim, then this is better than them going on in life only to end up in a terrible position before Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, albeit temporarily or even forever.


Oh ok sorry, I just now saw the word apostates.

That probably comes down to the mercy of Allah and the good deeds they have done up until that time as a Muslim. But I can't be like i'm issuing a fatwa about it because i'm not. Allah knows best.
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« Reply #265 on: November 02, 2013, 12:09:09 AM »

Yea I explained.

If the person goes to Jannah (similar to heaven) as a Muslim, then this is better than them going on in life only to end up in a terrible position before Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, albeit temporarily or even forever.

But if you kill people to "save them from themselves", you'd be presuming to know better than Allah, wouldn't you?
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« Reply #266 on: November 02, 2013, 12:10:49 AM »

Yea I explained.

If the person goes to Jannah (similar to heaven) as a Muslim, then this is better than them going on in life only to end up in a terrible position before Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, albeit temporarily or even forever.

Alpo mentioned apostates in his post, to which you replied: death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

So murdering such people is saving them from themselves? Ewwww.
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« Reply #267 on: November 02, 2013, 12:11:11 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.
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« Reply #268 on: November 02, 2013, 12:12:58 AM »

Yea I explained.

If the person goes to Jannah (similar to heaven) as a Muslim, then this is better than them going on in life only to end up in a terrible position before Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, albeit temporarily or even forever.

Alpo mentioned apostates in his post, to which you replied: death is viewed more in the way of salvation rather than murder. So you are saving the person from themself

So murdering such people is saving them from themselves? Ewwww.

Yea, see my post above. I edited to add that I only saw the word apostate when I read over. My error.

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« Reply #269 on: November 02, 2013, 12:14:03 AM »

You're not doing it for that reason, but it's an indirect consequence of someone not living any more.

An explanation would be appreciated.
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