Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 19757 times)

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #135 on: October 31, 2013, 01:59:02 PM »
I know. I am a murtad.  ;)

Now there's an ugly-sounding word!  :laugh:

Almost like Yahwist...

Are you trying to say that a word derived from the SACRED NAME of the Most High sounds ugly?  >:(

If that's indeed what you are implying, then I must never talk to you again!
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Offline Adela

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #136 on: October 31, 2013, 02:01:34 PM »


if you read the Arabic texts of Islam, you will find something called "Pleasure Marriage"
It is when man wants to enjoy a woman, he pays her wage and spends sometime with her,
and that’s all
The pleasure marriage was practiced during the time of Muhammad, the messenger
practiced it and so did the companions , it was also present during the time of Abe Bakre
and the beginning of the time of Omer then Omer banned it, but the Sheia’ian are still
practicing it as they denied its banning.
I want to ask you, as a human being, Do you agree about that? as the Prophet did it himself !




That's going on in India where extremely poor families sell their very young daughters into temporary marriages with wealthy muslims.    :-[

Quote

There’s a new sex-trafficking scheme hitting India, and this one involves marriage.

Men from around the Islamic world have been traveling to Hyderabad, India, to purchase marriage contracts lasting four weeks. These “one-month marriages” provide men with young Indian wives, generally from poor families, who must consummate the short-term arrangements. Essentially, men—often already married—come to India with the intent of having religiously sanctioned sex with women other than their wives. Since Islam forbids prostitution, a short-term "marriage" is arranged instead, often with girls from impoverished families.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/cheats/2013/04/15/indian-girl-exposes-one-month-marriage-racket.html


Quote

In almost all cases, these arrangements are facilitated by the girl's parents and by marriage brokers who profit from the deal. Generally, the parents are poor and force their daughters into temporary marriages under the guise of religion to earn money.

The duration of the marriage is pre-decided, and the divorce proceedings are started at the time of marriage to hasten the process. Sometimes the marriage is for a month, sometimes for a week and at times just for one night.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/780980.shtml#.UnKdxFPFkYI


Offline orthonorm

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #137 on: October 31, 2013, 02:03:29 PM »
Most Muslims don't know Arabic, they just memorize verses from the Qur'an that they don't understand.

Sounds like Christians, except for the memorizing part.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2013, 02:04:16 PM »
Are you trying to say that a word derived from the SACRED NAME of the Most High sounds ugly?  >:(

If that's indeed what you are implying, then I must never talk to you again!

Plenty of beautiful people have given birth to ugly babies. The term Yahwist just sounds plain dumb to my ears as well.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #139 on: October 31, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »
Sunnis don't teach sola scriptura.

Hmm, and yet the Qur'an is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" (5:3)

Islam was 'perfect' when Allah revealed the Qur'an, at the time of Muhammad. Why do you need imperfect isnad chains, and all sorts of Hadith and traditions that come 300 years later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you'd have to add more prayers and add more ahkam apart from what the Qur'an says.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 02:16:23 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2013, 02:23:20 PM »
Hmm, and yet the Qur'an is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" (5:3)

Islam was 'perfect' when Allah revealed the Qur'an, at the time of Muhammad. Why do you need imperfect isnad chains, and all sorts of Hadith and traditions that come 300 years later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you'd have to add more prayers and add more akhams apart from what the Qur'an says.

"Hmmm, and yet the Qu'ran Bible is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Islam Christianity was perfect when the Qu'ran New Testament was written, at the time of Muhammed Christ and the apostles. Why do you need imperfect isnad Tradition chains and all sorts of Hadiths patristic texts and traditions that come 300 later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam Christianity was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you have to add more prayers and add more akshams canons apart from what the Qu'ran Bible says"

See how your arguments don't work?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 02:26:45 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #141 on: October 31, 2013, 02:24:57 PM »
There are a bunch of words in this thread that are being thrown about and I have no idea what they mean.  :P
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #142 on: October 31, 2013, 02:29:12 PM »
There are a bunch of words in this thread that are being thrown about and I have no idea what they mean.  :P

Just another day on OC.net...
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #143 on: October 31, 2013, 02:30:12 PM »
Dear Poppy,

I congratulate you for learning the Arabic language.  It's beauty probably enhanced your reading of the Quran and helped you convert.  I guess we all cannot jump to conclusions to criticize or convert until we all learn Arabic and read the Quran in Arabic.

What does this mean? I've been learning Arabic (mostly passively) for several years now and it hasn't made any difference in how I view the Qur'an or Islam. I'm confused.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #144 on: October 31, 2013, 02:32:50 PM »
There are a bunch of words in this thread that are being thrown about and I have no idea what they mean.  :P

It's a bunch of Islamic honorifics.  Here's some Wiki sites that help explain them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhanahu_wa_ta%27ala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_be_upon_him_%28Islam%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_honorifics
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #145 on: October 31, 2013, 02:59:25 PM »
There are a bunch of words in this thread that are being thrown about and I have no idea what they mean.  :P

It's a bunch of Islamic honorifics.  Here's some Wiki sites that help explain them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhanahu_wa_ta%27ala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_be_upon_him_%28Islam%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_honorifics

Of course, then there's fiqh and haqq and deen, etc.  :P
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #146 on: October 31, 2013, 03:09:44 PM »
I know. I am a murtad;)

Now there's an ugly-sounding word!  :laugh:

Almost like Yahwist...

Are you trying to say that a word derived from the SACRED NAME of the Most High sounds ugly?  >:(


Iehovist is what we call Jehovah's Witnesses in Romanian. Now these can be very nice people (elderly polite Hungarian women one cannot afford to be rude to, in my experience), but their name has an ugly, moldy ring to it nevertheless.

Moreover, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically. Too much occasion for His Name to be taken in vain...  ;)   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:21:51 PM by Romaios »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #147 on: October 31, 2013, 03:22:52 PM »

Iehovist is what we call Jehovah's Witnesses in Romanian. Now these can be very nice people (elderly polite Hungarian women one cannot afford to be rude to, in my experience), but their name has an ugly, moldy ring to it nevertheless.

Moreover, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically. Too much occasion for His Name to be taken in vain...  ;)  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yahwist

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yahwist

read and learn...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:25:15 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #148 on: October 31, 2013, 03:26:19 PM »

Iehovist is what we call Jehovah's Witnesses in Romanian. Now these can be very nice people (elderly polite Hungarian women one cannot afford to be rude to, in my experience), but their name has an ugly, moldy ring to it nevertheless.

Moreover, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically. Too much occasion for His Name to be taken in vain...  ;)   

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yahwist

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=yahwist

read and learn...

Again, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically. Except, of course, for latter day saints like Jehovah's witnesses...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:27:42 PM by Romaios »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #149 on: October 31, 2013, 03:28:19 PM »

Again, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically.

Today is not a part of history?

Muslims? They cannot call themselves Yahwists since they worship the false god of Arabia. They are allahist pagans.  ;D
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #150 on: October 31, 2013, 03:29:09 PM »
There are a bunch of words in this thread that are being thrown about and I have no idea what they mean.  :P

It's a bunch of Islamic honorifics.  Here's some Wiki sites that help explain them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhanahu_wa_ta%27ala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_be_upon_him_%28Islam%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_honorifics

Of course, then there's fiqh and haqq and deen, etc.  :P

fiqh = Islamic jurisprudence
haqq = truth (or "right", e.g. huquq el-insan "human rights")
deen = religion

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #151 on: October 31, 2013, 03:30:58 PM »

Again, no Christian, Jew or Muslim ever called themselves what you call yourself, historically.

Today is not a part of history?


Hahaha. This reminds me of when the History Channel stopped being about Nazis and war and converted into a channel where we watch fat bald people barter for other people's junk. Their new slogan is now "History is everyday" or some such silliness.

Nope. Today is not a part of history until it's tomorrow. ;)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #152 on: October 31, 2013, 03:31:31 PM »
Hmm, and yet the Qur'an is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" (5:3)

Islam was 'perfect' when Allah revealed the Qur'an, at the time of Muhammad. Why do you need imperfect isnad chains, and all sorts of Hadith and traditions that come 300 years later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you'd have to add more prayers and add more akhams apart from what the Qur'an says.

"Hmmm, and yet the Qu'ran Bible is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Islam Christianity was perfect when the Qu'ran New Testament was written, at the time of Muhammed Christ and the apostles. Why do you need imperfect isnad Tradition chains and all sorts of Hadiths patristic texts and traditions that come 300 later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam Christianity was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you have to add more prayers and add more akshams canons apart from what the Qu'ran Bible says"

See how your arguments don't work?

No, the problem is you are equating the Bible and Qur'an like they are the same thing. They are not. The Bible is a compilation that went through historical development, and was written by humans. The Qur'an is not. The Qur'an is a literal 'Word of God' that existed forever with God, and God revealed it directly to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and was written down. The Bible wasn't literally dictated word for word from God. It was human breathed as well as God-breathed.

You are also assuming that Islamic tradition is in accord with the Qur'an. It is not. The Hadith are completely at variance with each other and with the Qur'an. The Hadith say that the Qur'an isn't perfect, the Qur'an itself says it 'is' perfect. The Qur'an says that you only pray 3 times a day. Hadith say 50 times, some say that it was changed to 5 times and now that's the official stance. The Hadith developed after the Qur'an. Christian tradition developed alongside the Bible. St. Ignatius of Antioch is an indicator of this. There is no authority apart from maybe Sufyan al-Thawri or Abu Hanifah who has such a role that connects the tradition with the Prophet. And Abu Hanifah and Sufyan al-Thawri's works are usually considered as 'attributed' or 'inauthentic'.

The Qur'an in Islam by Allamah al-Tabatabai
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:38:36 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #153 on: October 31, 2013, 03:31:45 PM »
Today is not a part of history?

Only if you want yourself to be history.  ;D

Muslims? They cannot call themselves Yahwists since they worship the false god of Arabia. They are allahist pagans.  ;D

Now there you have two equally ridiculous names...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:34:28 PM by Romaios »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2013, 03:34:05 PM »
Today is not a part of history?

Only if you want yourself to be history.  ;D

Muslims? They cannot call themselves Yahwists since they worship the false god of Arabia. They are allahist pagans.  ;D

Now there you have two equally ridiculously ludicrous names...


It perfectly makes sense to people who can reason:

YHWH worshippers: Yahwists
Allah worshippers: Allahists

 ::)
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2013, 03:35:25 PM »
What's wrong with the name 'christian'?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2013, 03:37:12 PM »
It perfectly makes sense to people who can reason:

YHWH worshippers: Yahwists
Allah worshippers: Allahists

 ::)

Unreasonable people, that is: Arab-speaking Christians would pass for "Allahists" and none but yourself and, perhaps, Jehovah's witnesses (though they tend to stick with the old fashioned vowels) would pass for "Yahwists".
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:39:47 PM by Romaios »

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2013, 03:37:26 PM »
What's wrong with the name 'christian'?

I am primarily Christian. In order to separate myself from some other "Christians" who insist on worshipping foreign gods (allah worshippers, for instance), I designate myself as a Yahwist.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2013, 03:39:22 PM »
Today is not a part of history?

Only if you want yourself to be history.  ;D

Muslims? They cannot call themselves Yahwists since they worship the false god of Arabia. They are allahist pagans.  ;D

Now there you have two equally ridiculously ludicrous names...


It perfectly makes sense to people who can reason:

YHWH worshippers: Yahwists
Allah worshippers: Allahists

 ::)

Name worshipers: Theophilos78  ::)

By the way, why isn't your name 78אוֹהֵבYHWH? (sorry, I don't know Hebrew so I can't transliterate that, but that's what Google tells me "philos" translates to)

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2013, 03:41:14 PM »
It perfectly makes sense to people who can reason:

YHWH worshippers: Yahwists
Allah worshippers: Allahists

 ::)

Unreasonable people, that is: Arab-speaking Christians would pass for "Allahists" and none but yourself and, perhaps, Jehovah's witnesses (though they tend to stick with the old fashioned vowels) would pass for "Yahwists".

The only reasonable thing to do now is to let you entertain yourself.  ::)
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2013, 03:42:41 PM »
Name worshipers: Theophilos78  ::)

By the way, why isn't your name 78אוֹהֵבYHWH? (sorry, I don't know Hebrew so I can't transliterate that, but that's what Google tells me "philos" translates to)

I would rather worship the name of the God of Israel than a foreign god...

Theophilos cannot be translated because this is how it appears in the Greek New Testament.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2013, 03:43:09 PM »
Most Muslims don't know Arabic, they just memorize verses from the Qur'an that they don't understand.

Sounds like Christians, except for the memorizing part.

To be fair, Evangelicals are quite adept at memorizing passages from their NLT/NIV-whatever Bibles  ;)
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2013, 03:46:50 PM »
Name worshipers: Theophilos78  ::)

By the way, why isn't your name 78אוֹהֵבYHWH? (sorry, I don't know Hebrew so I can't transliterate that, but that's what Google tells me "philos" translates to)

I would rather worship the name of the God of Israel than a foreign god...

Theophilos cannot be translated because this is how it appears in the Greek New Testament.

Zeus = OK; Allah = verboten.  ::)

Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #163 on: October 31, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »
The only reasonable thing to do now is to let you entertain yourself.  ::)

So long as you stick to your idée fixe (ta idia), you provide plenty of entertainment for the entire board.

Greeks have a not so pretty name to describe such people.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #164 on: October 31, 2013, 03:51:24 PM »
I am primarily Christian. In order to separate myself from some other "Christians" who insist on worshipping foreign gods (allah worshippers, for instance), I designate myself as a Yahwist.

If you separate yourself from the Arab-speaking Orthodox, you separate yourself from all the Orthodox who are in communion with them. Not pretty, I tell you!  ::)

Offline JamesR

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #165 on: October 31, 2013, 03:54:39 PM »
To some degree, I could see why many people may be attracted toward Islam. It really bridges the gap between the strict legalism of Orthodox Judaism and the overt mysticism and transcendent nature of Christianity that often leaves people frustrated. For me, personally, my problem with Christianity is the whole other-wordly emphasis. Quite frankly, I'm sick of being fed seemingly false promises about a future (that may never come) and stupid existential cop-outs for the problems in our world. The problem of suffering really makes no sense from any Abrahamic religion's perspective tbh, but I find Christianity's approach to it the most confusing. I think now that my main criticism with Islam is that like all religions, I don't think I can bring myself to worship a God who didn't become man. I simply see no reason to break my back for some detached authoritarian figure in the sky who does nothing about our suffering and yet expects that I worship Him. The Incarnation personally to me is the ONLY thing that makes God worth worshipping. I don't buy into all those silly "He's greater than us, He deserves worship by default" or "But look at the beauty of the world! He deserves worship!" arguments that many mainstream Christian and Muslim apologists make. I could care less about a God who knows nothing about our condition. If He wants my worship then He has to earn it and come down to my level. And I think that's really the only reason I choose Christianity over other religions, no matter how contradictory, confusing, and difficult it is.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #166 on: October 31, 2013, 03:54:50 PM »
I am primarily Christian. In order to separate myself from some other "Christians" who insist on worshipping foreign gods (allah worshippers, for instance), I designate myself as a Yahwist.

If you separate yourself from the Arab-speaking Orthodox, you separate yourself from all the Orthodox who are in communion with them. Not pretty, I tell you!  ::)

Then I would still find myself a place among the Messianic Jews or Evangelicals.  ;)
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #167 on: October 31, 2013, 03:55:37 PM »
Name worshipers: Theophilos78  ::)

By the way, why isn't your name 78אוֹהֵבYHWH? (sorry, I don't know Hebrew so I can't transliterate that, but that's what Google tells me "philos" translates to)

I would rather worship the name of the God of Israel than a foreign god...

Theophilos cannot be translated because this is how it appears in the Greek New Testament.
Do you use the word "God?" You realize that this word is also of Pagan orgins, right?
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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #168 on: October 31, 2013, 03:56:39 PM »
Dear Poppy,

I'm Arab, and I have many Muslim friends, so while I understand some of the Islamic lingo and terminology used, rather than have me or the other posters explain them, would you be so kind in offering a translation after every "non-English" word or phrase you use?  Some people are having trouble following along with you.

And that goes for the rest of us who are doing the same, not just Poppy.

Shoukran w Allah y barak (Thank you and God bless).  <----see what I did there?  ;)

Mina
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 03:57:41 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #169 on: October 31, 2013, 03:58:24 PM »
Sorry and sure, I should have done that but I wanted replies only from ppl who has studied it rli and who struggled with it. So they would have understood.
But I will put like you did by the side.

Did you see my q to you eons ago? If not,no worries. I am about done with this thread anyway.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:03:15 PM by Poppy »

Offline Romaios

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #170 on: October 31, 2013, 03:59:39 PM »
Then I would still find myself a place among the Messianic Jews or Evangelicals.  ;)

Since you want to make history, you might be cozier with the "lost sheep of Israel".

Yeshua

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #171 on: October 31, 2013, 04:07:28 PM »
To some degree, I could see why many people may be attracted toward Islam. It really bridges the gap between the strict legalism of Orthodox Judaism and the overt mysticism and transcendent nature of Christianity that often leaves people frustrated.

Islam is more legalistic than Judaism. There are even concepts such as Khilafah (Islamic State) that people like al-Mawardi expounded, and that the terrorists and Islamists want to force on everyone else. Seculars, liberals, Shi'ites and Christians. That's what is happening in Syria now.

There is legalism with regard to Allah's Siffat and Asmaa' (Names and Attributes) that caused many conflicts in Islamic history between fundamentalists like Ibn Taymiyya and the Asharites.

There is legalism with regard to the Qur'an, it is absolutely essential that a Muslim believes that every dot in the Qur'an is 100% the literal Word of God, dictated from Him directly, without any error or addition or mistake. People did question this though, like the Mutazilites, and they were killed.

Legalism on how you enter the bathroom, how you pray, how you wash before you pray and read the Qur'an.

Here's an example.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:10:13 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
"If only a man desired it for a single day from morning till night, he would be able to come to the measure of God." (Abba Alonius)

Offline Alpo

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #172 on: October 31, 2013, 04:10:11 PM »
This thread has gotten awfully ugly. I don't think any of us are acquiring converts just by being polemical or plain idiot.

I like Arabic language. It would be nice to attend a liturgy in Arabic sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbTdzb-W24

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #173 on: October 31, 2013, 04:12:43 PM »
because you said you speak Arabic, maybe you understand it better in Arabic
حتي تستطيعي فهم الاسلام بشكل كامل و صحيح,, لابد ان تكوني علي دراية باللغة العربية بشكل تام
لان النسخة المترجمة من كل الكتب الاسلامية ,, غير مكتملة و غير دقيقة
لذلك الاسلام لدي غير المتحدثين باللغة العربية مختلف تماماً ,, عن الاسلام الحقيقي الموجود في الدول ذات الاغلبية المسلم

Better? No not better, as English is my first language (although some ppl would be like @really???) after they heard me speak, ha!)

I already mentioned that point earlier in the thread, that you have to read it in Arabic because if it isn't in Arabic then it's not correct or complete.

It's true that you need to know the language fully but we are all on a process of learning and a medium level Arabic speaker/reader is better than someone who only knows a little. And someone who knows only a little, is better than someone who knows and understands nothing at all.

And you will never have a correct or complete understanding unless you are a native speaker. By the way....opinion poll time!

Who thinks I need to be killed for leaving Islam? That is the punishment as mentioned....Poppy....chime in. I don't think it needs to be off with my head but if you must follow Islam correctly, would you kill me or see me killed and be OK with it? 99.9% of Muslims don't follow everything fully anyway just what they enjoy most....sort of like my fatalist outlook.

My fatalist ways, I think your perception is your reality there. And I used the quote from the ideology YOU follow now, thought it may make a point somehow but it may have been lost.
"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6

Offline Poppy

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #174 on: October 31, 2013, 04:14:28 PM »
Hmm, and yet the Qur'an is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" (5:3)

Islam was 'perfect' when Allah revealed the Qur'an, at the time of Muhammad. Why do you need imperfect isnad chains, and all sorts of Hadith and traditions that come 300 years later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you'd have to add more prayers and add more akhams apart from what the Qur'an says.

"Hmmm, and yet the Qu'ran Bible is a perfect book, and it says: "This day I have perfected for you your religion... and I choose Islam as your religion" "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Islam Christianity was perfect when the Qu'ran New Testament was written, at the time of Muhammed Christ and the apostles. Why do you need imperfect isnad Tradition chains and all sorts of Hadiths patristic texts and traditions that come 300 later for a religion that was already perfect? Since Islam Christianity was already perfect, it doesn't make sense why you have to add more prayers and add more akshams canons apart from what the Qu'ran Bible says"

See how your arguments don't work?

No, the problem is you are equating the Bible and Qur'an like they are the same thing. They are not. The Bible is a compilation that went through historical development, and was written by humans. The Qur'an is not. The Qur'an is a literal 'Word of God' that existed forever with God, and God revealed it directly to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and was written down. The Bible wasn't literally dictated word for word from God. It was human breathed as well as God-breathed.

You are also assuming that Islamic tradition is in accord with the Qur'an. It is not. The Hadith are completely at variance with each other and with the Qur'an. The Hadith say that the Qur'an isn't perfect, the Qur'an itself says it 'is' perfect. The Qur'an says that you only pray 3 times a day. Hadith say 50 times, some say that it was changed to 5 times and now that's the official stance. The Hadith developed after the Qur'an. Christian tradition developed alongside the Bible. St. Ignatius of Antioch is an indicator of this. There is no authority apart from maybe Sufyan al-Thawri or Abu Hanifah who has such a role that connects the tradition with the Prophet. And Abu Hanifah and Sufyan al-Thawri's works are usually considered as 'attributed' or 'inauthentic'.

The Qur'an in Islam by Allamah al-Tabatabai

There are many Hadith, some are weak and others are strong with a good chain.

Also, you can't comment on "most Muslims" as you can't possibly know that information unless you have stats. If you do then reference them! If not then don't be lazy and make useless generalisations. All the Muslims I know at various masjids (and it's quite a few now), know Arabic rli well.

Offline mike

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #175 on: October 31, 2013, 04:15:20 PM »
I like Arabic language. It would be nice to attend a liturgy in Arabic sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbTdzb-W24

Provided it is sung in Slavic tunes.

Interestingly hyperdox convertitis is not only Orthodox phenomena.

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #176 on: October 31, 2013, 04:15:43 PM »
Sorry and sure, I should have done that but I wanted replies only from ppl who has studied it rli and who struggled with it. So they would have understood.
But I will put like you did by the side.

Did you see my q to you eons ago? If not,no worries. I am about done with this thread anyway.


Poppy, I already answered the question.  Christians don't believe God has a co-equal or co-partner.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #177 on: October 31, 2013, 04:17:03 PM »
I like Arabic language. It would be nice to attend a liturgy in Arabic sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbTdzb-W24

Provided it is sung in Slavic tunes.

Interestingly hyperdox convertitis is not only Orthodox phenomena.

I don't like Byzantine chant but somehow it works with Arabic. It would be weird to hear Arabic chant with Slavic tunes.

I believe every religious group have their version of convertitis. Cradles tend to be more calm in every religion.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:18:14 PM by Alpo »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #178 on: October 31, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »
Dear Poppy,

I'm Arab, and I have many Muslim friends, so while I understand some of the Islamic lingo and terminology used, rather than have me or the other posters explain them, would you be so kind in offering a translation after every "non-English" word or phrase you use?  Some people are having trouble following along with you.

And that goes for the rest of us who are doing the same, not just Poppy.

Shoukran w Allah y barak (Thank you and God bless).  <----see what I did there?  ;)

Mina


'ashera-arb'a, rafiq geyid. (10-4, good buddy.) <--- Arabic is fun. :)

Offline mike

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Re: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?
« Reply #179 on: October 31, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »
I like Arabic language. It would be nice to attend a liturgy in Arabic sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbTdzb-W24

Provided it is sung in Slavic tunes.

Interestingly hyperdox convertitis is not only Orthodox phenomena.

I don't like Byzantine chant but somehow it works with Arabic. It would be weird to hear Arabic chant with Slavic tunes.

After seing some youtubes I have to agree. They allow women to sing, it is less overlong. Not bad.