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Author Topic: Has anyone ever been like "hmm har" about Islam?  (Read 15148 times) Average Rating: 5
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« on: October 30, 2013, 05:11:09 PM »

Was it Jesus that made your mind up for you? (I mean the issue of Jesus' deity) or was it something else?
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 05:21:55 PM »

Huh?
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 05:23:45 PM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 05:36:20 PM »

It was never a question of islam for me, but once I learned about islam and how its claims cannot be reconciled with actual history (about Jesus and the church) it was never an option.
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 05:40:46 PM »

It was never a question of islam for me, but once I learned about islam and how its claims cannot be reconciled with actual history (about Jesus and the church) it was never an option.

Actual history, as told by the Christian church?
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 05:50:46 PM »

Actual history, as in based on historical sources we have. Of course I do believe the accounts of the church to be from the apostles. But heres the defeater of islam.

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55

This is a claim that can be verified in history. We should be able to see a group of early christians (if this is true) that preached certain aspects about Jesus while excluding themselves from the orthodox, gnostic or Judaising parties in early Christianity. They should, Deny Jesus as God, They should deny Jesus being killled on the cross, they should affirm Jesus being assumed into heaven, they should affirm Jesus having a physical body, they should affirm Jesus gave a book called the gospel, they should affirm Jesus spoke about a promised one called Muhammad. These are the things teh quran claims Jesus taught, but we find no trace of any group anywhere that existed and believed such things. None whatsoever, but the claim is magnafied once we see the quran says they will be victorious to the day of ressurection. They are not even mentioned in history, instead the party that became victorious were the Orthodox churches, those who taught Jesus was God, died and was ressurected.

I have not heard a decent islamic responce to this, it is a pure matter of believing the quran against what we should expect. IE some reference to this strange group if they were victorious and superior to all others. That was teh church, not this non existing band of apostles and subsequent followers.
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 05:51:44 PM »

It was never a question of islam for me, but once I learned about islam and how its claims cannot be reconciled with actual history (about Jesus and the church) it was never an option.

Actual history, as told by the Christian church?

As told by any respectable scholar.
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 06:18:07 PM »

The deeper someone digs into the life of Muhammad, the more we see revelations and practices of him being abrogated by those who came after him. Sometimes it needs nothing more than to see what legacy each person left behind. And every law-based religion can never solve the problem of what ultimately saves them, only Christ fulfills that. Even on a human basis, try this scenario:

You´ve commited thousands of crimes, bigger and smaller ones. Upon meeting the just judge you say with tears, I´m sorry judge, I´ve repented and regretted every single one of my crimes, forgive me and free me from the punishment.

The just judge would respond that it does not matter how much he/she repents if he-/she´s the only way through which justice can be made. The punish must take place through him/her.

Orthodox Christianity, our Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who unites mercy,love with justice in a logical and realistic sense.
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 06:39:03 PM »


Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55


Actually, this verse proves that Muhammad was heavily influenced by Gnostic doctrines about Yeshua's death and made use of them to propagate his anti-Jewish sensations.

Quote
Muhammad’s god confesses in this verse that his motive for taking Jesus up to himself was Jesus’ “purification” from those who did not believe Him. If one understands that “those who do not believe” pertain to the Jews, the question why specifically the verb “purify” is used in this verse can find an explanation. Jesus’ ascension in the Islamic scripture corresponds to His purification from the Jews because Muhammad’s god thought that the Jews were dirty people that contaminated Jesus in this world. This is exactly compatible with what some Gnostic heresies – for instance, Marcionism – taught about the Jews.
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/gnostic_islamic_crucifixion.html

On the other hand, the teaching that Yeshua's apostles became victorious was overtly stated in another chapter of the Qur'an:

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed. (Surah 61:14 Yusuf Ali)

Ironically, this is also the chapter in which Islamic Issa foretold the coming of a messenger named Ahmad!  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 07:11:28 PM »

quit playing games with my heart poppy. only if i can win at it.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 07:26:39 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 07:40:54 PM »

Poppy is back! Rejoice! Rejoice! Poppy is back!

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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 07:48:33 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.

They raided villages in Cornwall and took slaves.

I have two translations here of the Koran, and previously had a third. The singular response I had with all of them was if these were revelations, they were exceedingly jumbled, confused and appeared to be inferior in every way to either the Old or New Testament.

Indeed reading the Koran reduced whatever regard I may have had for Islam prior to opening the book.
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2013, 08:19:45 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.

They raided villages in Cornwall and took slaves.

I have two translations here of the Koran, and previously had a third. The singular response I had with all of them was if these were revelations, they were exceedingly jumbled, confused and appeared to be inferior in every way to either the Old or New Testament.

Indeed reading the Koran reduced whatever regard I may have had for Islam prior to opening the book.

Seems like that is the typical reaction, but I disagree. Arguably it is from a literary perspective much more interesting than the Bible.
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2013, 08:23:26 PM »

Islam is an imitation, a mimic, and a knock-off. It's two main claims are 1. the Qur'an is 'God's Book' and 2. Muhammad is God's Prophet like Moses was, Jesus was. Both are quite disputable claims. They also claim the Bible is corrupted, which is a very subjective judgement made on the Bible in order to disprove Judaism and Christianity.
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 08:45:29 PM »

It's a cheap ripoff of the Gospel According to John and the Revelation. (A vision of an angel, who talks about the end of the world, for a man who has to live in a cave... couldn't Muhammad have at least tried to be original?)
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2013, 08:46:48 PM »

Could the posts in this thread get worse?

I have faith in my fellow posters.
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2013, 08:49:10 PM »

Could the posts in this thread get worse?

I have faith in my fellow posters.
Post #8.

Islmaphobia...see that Maria thread on the rape.
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2013, 08:51:30 PM »

Poppy is back! Rejoice! Rejoice! Poppy is back!

 angel angel angel angel

One thing everyone can agree about whether they've read the Koran or know anything about Islam or have anything to actually offer to the OP or not.
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2013, 08:57:56 PM »

Was it Jesus that made your mind up for you? (I mean the issue of Jesus' deity) or was it something else?

Poppy did you return from Greece considering Islam? Makes sense given the fact you were a place I cannot tell apart from from Turkey, but to your question:

Not in the sense you mean it. I think some of the Islamic literature I've read has offered me plenty of insight into where Christianity gets sorta goofy, especially RC, and it has also offered some interesting answers to questions I hadn't really encountered as such.

To your question though, it is going to come down to the incarnation. God became man or He didn't.

No one in this thread knows much about Islam and judging from their posts elsewhere, they are decidedly confused about it, but that doesn't matter.

Either you believe in the incarnation of you do not. If you do, Islam is a non-starter. If you don't, maybe Islam can appeal to you.

So, if you believe Jesus was and is God, we can have a really ill-informed discussion here.

If you don't, then what is the point?
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2013, 09:02:10 PM »

Poppy is back! Rejoice! Rejoice! Poppy is back!

 angel angel angel angel

One thing everyone can agree about whether they've read the Koran or know anything about Islam or have anything to actually offer to the OP or not.

I've read the Koran several times. But you don't let facts stop you anyway, so I don't expect you will now.
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2013, 09:03:48 PM »

Poppy is back! Rejoice! Rejoice! Poppy is back!

 angel angel angel angel

One thing everyone can agree about whether they've read the Koran or know anything about Islam or have anything to actually offer to the OP or not.

I've read the Koran several times. But you don't let facts stop you anyway, so I don't expect you will now.

I didn't say you hadn't.

Your opinions here and elsewhere would suggest some odd reading habits though.
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2013, 09:26:21 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.

They raided villages in Cornwall and took slaves.

I have two translations here of the Koran, and previously had a third. The singular response I had with all of them was if these were revelations, they were exceedingly jumbled, confused and appeared to be inferior in every way to either the Old or New Testament.

Indeed reading the Koran reduced whatever regard I may have had for Islam prior to opening the book.

Seems like that is the typical reaction, but I disagree. Arguably it is from a literary perspective much more interesting than the Bible.

Keyword here might be 'Arguably'. But it is perhaps pointless to follow that line since the impression is given that only Orthonorm knows ought about Islam. As to the literary perspective, in what way might you suggest the Koran is superior?
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2013, 09:47:58 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.

They raided villages in Cornwall and took slaves.

I have two translations here of the Koran, and previously had a third. The singular response I had with all of them was if these were revelations, they were exceedingly jumbled, confused and appeared to be inferior in every way to either the Old or New Testament.

Indeed reading the Koran reduced whatever regard I may have had for Islam prior to opening the book.

Seems like that is the typical reaction, but I disagree. Arguably it is from a literary perspective much more interesting than the Bible.

Keyword here might be 'Arguably'. But it is perhaps pointless to follow that line since the impression is given that only Orthonorm knows ought about Islam. As to the literary perspective, in what way might you suggest the Koran is superior?

Take whatever impression you like. But such mental energies are better used where projection is helpful like therapy.
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2013, 09:49:30 PM »

Actual history, as in based on historical sources we have. Of course I do believe the accounts of the church to be from the apostles. But heres the defeater of islam.

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55

This is a claim that can be verified in history. We should be able to see a group of early christians (if this is true) that preached certain aspects about Jesus while excluding themselves from the orthodox, gnostic or Judaising parties in early Christianity. They should, Deny Jesus as God, They should deny Jesus being killled on the cross, they should affirm Jesus being assumed into heaven, they should affirm Jesus having a physical body, they should affirm Jesus gave a book called the gospel, they should affirm Jesus spoke about a promised one called Muhammad. These are the things teh quran claims Jesus taught, but we find no trace of any group anywhere that existed and believed such things. None whatsoever, but the claim is magnafied once we see the quran says they will be victorious to the day of ressurection. They are not even mentioned in history, instead the party that became victorious were the Orthodox churches, those who taught Jesus was God, died and was ressurected.

I have not heard a decent islamic responce to this, it is a pure matter of believing the quran against what we should expect. IE some reference to this strange group if they were victorious and superior to all others. That was teh church, not this non existing band of apostles and subsequent followers.
My sentiments exactly.
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 09:56:27 PM »

I thought this thread might be about the Barbary Pirates.

They raided villages in Cornwall and took slaves.

I have two translations here of the Koran, and previously had a third. The singular response I had with all of them was if these were revelations, they were exceedingly jumbled, confused and appeared to be inferior in every way to either the Old or New Testament.

Indeed reading the Koran reduced whatever regard I may have had for Islam prior to opening the book.

Seems like that is the typical reaction, but I disagree. Arguably it is from a literary perspective much more interesting than the Bible.

Keyword here might be 'Arguably'. But it is perhaps pointless to follow that line since the impression is given that only Orthonorm knows ought about Islam. As to the literary perspective, in what way might you suggest the Koran is superior?

Take whatever impression you like. But such mental energies are better used where projection is helpful like therapy.

This is among many parts of the Bible I could yank and almost none would notice and would likely thank me:

Quote
1 Chronicles 8
Names of God Bible (NOG)
Benjamin’s Descendants

8 Benjamin was the father of Bela (his firstborn), Ashbel (his second son), Aharah (his third son), 2 Nohah (his fourth son), and Rapha (his fifth son). 3 Bela’s sons were Addar, Gera, Abihud, 4 Abishua, Naaman, Ahoah, 5 Gera, Shephuphan, and Huram.

6 These were Ehud’s sons, who were heads of the families living in Geba and who were taken away as captives to Manahath: 7 Naaman, Ahijah, and Gera. Gera led the rest of them away as captives. He was the father of Uzza and Ahihud.

8 Shaharaim divorced his wives Hushim and Baara. But later in Moab, 9 he and his wife Hodesh had the following sons: Jobab, Zibia, Mesha, Malcam, 10 Jeuz, Sachia, and Mirmah. All of Shaharaim’s sons became heads of families. 11 He and Hushim were the parents of Abitub and Elpaal. 12 Elpaal’s sons were Eber, Misham, and Shemed (who built Ono, Lod, and Lod’s villages).

13 Beriah and Shema were the heads of the families who lived in Aijalon. They forced out the people living in Gath. 14 Their brothers[a] were Shashak and Jeremoth. 15 Beriah’s sons were Zebadiah, Arad, Eder, 16 Michael, Ishpah, and Joha. 17 Elpaal’s sons were Zebadiah, Meshullam, Hizki, Heber, 18 Ishmerai, Izliah, and Jobab. 19 Shimei’s sons were Jakim, Zichri, Zabdi, 20 Elienai, Zillethai, Eliel, 21 Adaiah, Beraiah, and Shimrath. 22 Shashak’s sons were Ishpan, Eber, Eliel, 23 Abdon, Zichri, Hanan, 24 Hananiah, Elam, Anthothijah, 25 Iphdeiah, and Penuel. 26 Jeroham’s sons were Shamsherai, Shehariah, Athaliah, 27 Jaareshiah, Elijah, and Zichri. 28 These were the heads of families listed by their ancestry. They were the heads of families. They lived in Jerusalem.

29 Jeiel, who first settled Gibeon, lived in Gibeon, and his wife’s name was Maacah. 30 His firstborn son was Abdon, then Zur, Kish, Baal, Nadab, 31 Gedor, Ahio, Zecher, 32 and Mikloth, who was the father of Shimeah. They lived next to their relatives in Jerusalem. 33 Ner was the father of Kish. Kish was the father of Saul. Saul was the father of Jonathan, Malchishua, Abinadab, and Eshbaal. 34 Jonathan’s son was Meribbaal, and Meribbaal was the father of Micah. 35 Micah’s sons were Pithon, Melech, Tarea, and Ahaz. 36 Ahaz was the father of Jehoaddah. Jehoaddah was the father of Alemeth, Azmaveth, and Zimri. Zimri was the father of Moza. 37 Moza was the father of Binea. Binea’s son was Raphah. Raphah’s son was Eleasah. Eleasah’s son was Azel. 38 Azel had six sons. Their names were Azrikam, Bocheru, Ishmael, Sheariah, Obadiah, and Hanan. All of these men were Azel’s sons. 39 His brother Eshek’s sons were Ulam (the firstborn), Jeush (the second son), and Eliphelet (the third son). 40 Ulam’s sons were soldiers, skilled archers. They had many sons and grandsons, 150 in all. All of these men were Benjamin’s descendants.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Chronicles+8&version=NOG

Good stuff.

And most of the criticisms you hear about the Koran surround primarily some issues regarding being able to read poetry, then extend to the odd manner of its compilation, and stuff about Mohamed ripping off Gnostics and other silly stuff.

Again this is all in English translation.

But why everyone jumps to defend the singular nature of the Bible in a thread where it has nothing to do with the OP is telling. Protests too much and all that.

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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 10:02:51 PM »

Poppy is back! Rejoice! Rejoice! Poppy is back!

 angel angel angel angel

One thing everyone can agree about whether they've read the Koran or know anything about Islam or have anything to actually offer to the OP or not.

I've read the Koran several times. But you don't let facts stop you anyway, so I don't expect you will now.

I own a copy of the Quran. I am not going to hide information from anybody either. If you are 'considering' Islam at least read it's primary sources.

http://sunnah.com/

I recommend starting with the Hadith of Imam al-Nawawi and Riyadh al-Saliheen. They are a good summary of Islamic tradition for beginners. Adab al-Murfad is for Muslim living, Bulugh al-Maram and Muwatta Imam Malik are about Islamic tradition as it relates to Islamic law. And the Sahih and Sunan books are the standard Hadith books considered most authentic. Shama'il Muhammadiyah is about Muhammad's attributes, how he dressed, walked, murdered people in cold blood and laughed about it... that good stuff. Lastly, the Hadith Qudsi literally mean 'holy hadith' like we call the Saints 'Qadiseen' in Arabic, they are 'Divine Revelations' that Muhammad got from Allah that someone forgot to add into the Qur'an. So they are stuck as Hadith.

BTW, Waraqa bin Nawfal who was one of the first Muslim converts was an Arian scribe before he converted to Islam. He was the first 'convert' to Islam and he helped Muhammad write down the Qur'an.

Quote
Khadija then accompanied (Muhammad) to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger () described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger () asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. (Sahih al-Bukhari 1.3)

Sahih al-Bukhari is second in authority to the Quran in Sunni Islam (roughly 80% of Muslims).

Quote
As to the literary perspective, in what way might you suggest the Koran is superior?
It is not superior at all in terms of literature. Pre-Islamic Jahiliyyah poetry is just as good, as are the Psalms in the Bible. Although, someone who uses a translation may not recognize that. It also has no context. The Qur'an is just a mishmash of verses, no narrative.

Quote
And most of the criticisms you hear about the Koran surround primarily some issues regarding being able to read poetry, then extend to the odd manner of its compilation, and stuff about Mohamed ripping off Gnostics and other silly stuff.
Well, the Qur'an has a very similar story to Christ's life that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas does.

I should mention that there is a lot of ambiguity in the Qur'an and that Muslim scholars debate about strange things in the Qur'an all of the time. So if you don't understand something, you are not alone.
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 10:23:10 PM »

Who owns a Qu'ran here except ppl like Romaios, xariskai, norm, Isa, etc,?

Bible good enough for me.

I dont have time to read the Qua'ran. I'd rather google dumb stuff on the internet.
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 10:31:46 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 10:34:24 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

How's your relocation going?
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 10:37:14 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

How's your relocation going?

It is going well so far aside from some vehicle trouble that I could see coming. Found an OCA 15min. away so we're happy campers at the moment.
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2013, 10:39:26 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

How's your relocation going?

It is going well so far aside from some vehicle trouble that I could see coming. Found an OCA 15min. away so we're happy campers at the moment.

Great. I think Poppy would benefit best from hearing about whatever she is trying to get at from you.

I don't think arguing over who altered which jot and which tittle to make their point is going to matter much here.
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2013, 10:43:28 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

How's your relocation going?

It is going well so far aside from some vehicle trouble that I could see coming. Found an OCA 15min. away so we're happy campers at the moment.

Great. I think Poppy would benefit best from hearing about whatever she is trying to get at from you.

I don't think arguing over who altered which jot and which tittle to make their point is going to matter much here.

I know myself, and GabrieltheCelt as well as one other lurking woman are former Muslims on here. He usually chimes in on Islam related stuff, too, but we will see. I'm around if she would like to run specifics by me either here or in PM.
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 10:44:46 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

The woman taken in adultery and the reading of the Torah is paralleled in Islam. Except she doesn't live.
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2013, 10:46:05 PM »

Who owns a Qu'ran here except ppl like Romaios, xariskai, norm, Isa, etc,?

Bible good enough for me.

I dont have time to read the Qua'ran. I'd rather google dumb stuff on the internet.

I don't read it, I just own it. If I read from the Qur'an, I usually have a Tafsir accompanying it for exegetical purposes.
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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2013, 10:48:05 PM »


Welcome back, Poppy!!!!

How have you been?
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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2013, 10:54:38 PM »

Was it Jesus that made your mind up for you? (I mean the issue of Jesus' deity) or was it something else?

Poppy did you return from Greece considering Islam? Makes sense given the fact you were a place I cannot tell apart from from Turkey, but to your question:

Not in the sense you mean it. I think some of the Islamic literature I've read has offered me plenty of insight into where Christianity gets sorta goofy, especially RC, and it has also offered some interesting answers to questions I hadn't really encountered as such.

To your question though, it is going to come down to the incarnation. God became man or He didn't.

No one in this thread knows much about Islam and judging from their posts elsewhere, they are decidedly confused about it, but that doesn't matter.

Either you believe in the incarnation of you do not. If you do, Islam is a non-starter. If you don't, maybe Islam can appeal to you.

So, if you believe Jesus was and is God, we can have a really ill-informed discussion here.

If you don't, then what is the point?

I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2013, 10:55:13 PM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?

I am going to throw away any mention of Quran versus Bible, history, etc. Yes, I struggled for the last few of my Muslim years because I like to consider myself a moral person. Meaning if it weighs on my soul and feels wrong I can not usually do it. Once I decided I wanted to really know Islam in depth with hopes to increase my faith and bring me closer to Allah I was pushed back by those morals based off of things which are true that I read in Arabic. Muslims should imitate Muhammed as much as possible and after really deciding to make that happen for me I was left only to learn how he was a murdered of hundreds, advocated lying to infiltrate other groups (lying about being Muslim) and a host of other unappealing things. Yet I still struggled with things I saw as beautiful like salat, the method of prayer in Islam or the modesty of Muslim women. I flip flopped for a long while and on bad days the thoughts still cross my mind of Islam, not going to lie.

That is what made my mind up. Also the fact that I have spent time in a mostly Muslim country where I hung around with mainly Christians (I know, strange) and saw how the Muslims used Islam to justify treatment of them. I have no desire to be a part of a group that harms others and calls it halal or permissible based on what their prophet said.
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2013, 11:17:58 PM »

Who owns a Qu'ran here except ppl like Romaios, xariskai, norm, Isa, etc,?

Bible good enough for me.

I dont have time to read the Qua'ran. I'd rather google dumb stuff on the internet.

I do not own one.  I wouldn't bring it in to my house.

If I want to read it, I can always read it online....and what I have read, was less than appealing.
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2013, 11:33:50 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

I took my shahada and have been attending tafsir classes with the local imaam at masjid for almost 9 months.

The Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, is correcting where, 'the people of the book', have gone into error, so, much of the Qur'an would include strong whiffs of Christianity and Judaism as the predecessors of the Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, such as Musa and Isa, are not regarded as Christians but as Muslims. as you know. So, it would not be a surprise but expected.

Can I ask you how did you reconcile the issue of Jesus, عليه الصلاة والسلام?

That would rli help me to know that, شكرا.
I just want to settle on some answers not to cause fitna.


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« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2013, 11:36:45 PM »

If you want to hmm har, try and do it with a native speaker of Arabic to read and translate the Arabic text of anything you have your eyes on. You will be surprised to find out the English versions you're reading may not sound as nice in the pure form.

Orthonorm said it is interesting from a literary point and it is.

Islam mimics Christianity. Read the Bible and Quran side by side and you will see some of the same basic things, just changed names and places. I was Muslim for over 10 years from the time I was 16. Even many verses in the Quran and Hadith piggyback the Bible. I used to love a portion of the Hadith at-Tirmidhi about the birds leaving for the day hungry and coming back full, only relying on God. Matthew 6:26, very similar.

If you consider it, look at all aspects of Islam, not just the feel good things that make it look like Christianity's little brother.

I took my shahada and have been attending tafsir classes with the local imaam at masjid for almost 9 months.

The Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, is correcting where, 'the people of the book', have gone into error, so, much of the Qur'an would include strong whiffs of Christianity and Judaism as the predecessors of the Prophet, صلي الله عليه وسلم, such as Musa and Isa, are not regarded as Christians but as Muslims. as you know. So, it would not be a surprise but expected.

Can I ask you how did you reconcile the issue of Jesus, عليه الصلاة والسلام?

That would rli help me to know that, شكرا.
I just want to settle on some answers not to cause fitna.

Poppy,

I have many questions. But I am afraid they will anger you.
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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2013, 11:44:43 PM »

I don't know much about Islam but as Jason put it, it all comes down to the incarnation--either God became God or not. Personally, I wouldn't follow any religion that didn't involve God becoming man. Let's face it: life sucks. I wouldn't worship a God who didn't become one of us and take on our suffering. It's easy to be some distant authoritarian from the sky. Screw that. If God wants me to worship Him then He better come to me because I'm not breaking my back for a detached god who can't sympathize with suffering. Islam's main appeal to me lies in the fact that it's much more practical and understanding--especially in regards to male sexuality, whereas Christianity is too transcendent, mystical, and neglectful toward our physical bodies. But, I think that the incarnation is what makes it worth it.
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2013, 11:46:11 PM »


I should add that it is not just this point. It is also whether you trust Muhammad over all of the Prophets and God's Christ. Islam is a religion entirely centered on Muhammad. It claims to follow in the footsteps of the other prophets, but it's laws, theology and practice all derive from Muhammad's life and teachings...

Except for Hayaa' ala al-Khair al-'Amal...

I'd have to say that I find it centered on Allah, subhana wa ta 3la, and that it's not whether you trust the Prophet, salallahu 3lehi wasallam, but instead, if you trust God to guide you to the straight path.

The study of the life of the Prophet and the related teachings are not fardh but sunnah.
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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2013, 11:54:08 PM »

Islam's main appeal to me lies in the fact that it's much more practical and understanding--especially in regards to male sexuality, whereas Christianity is too transcendent, mystical, and neglectful toward our physical bodies. But, I think that the incarnation is what makes it worth it.

You're like a dog with a bone...
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« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2013, 12:02:02 AM »

Did you ever struggle between Islam and Christianity?

I am going to throw away any mention of Quran versus Bible, history, etc. Yes, I struggled for the last few of my Muslim years because I like to consider myself a moral person. Meaning if it weighs on my soul and feels wrong I can not usually do it. Once I decided I wanted to really know Islam in depth with hopes to increase my faith and bring me closer to Allah I was pushed back by those morals based off of things which are true that I read in Arabic. Muslims should imitate Muhammed as much as possible and after really deciding to make that happen for me I was left only to learn how he was a murdered of hundreds, advocated lying to infiltrate other groups (lying about being Muslim) and a host of other unappealing things. Yet I still struggled with things I saw as beautiful like salat, the method of prayer in Islam or the modesty of Muslim women. I flip flopped for a long while and on bad days the thoughts still cross my mind of Islam, not going to lie.

That is what made my mind up. Also the fact that I have spent time in a mostly Muslim country where I hung around with mainly Christians (I know, strange) and saw how the Muslims used Islam to justify treatment of them. I have no desire to be a part of a group that harms others and calls it halal or permissible based on what their prophet said.


Sorry sister I missed this post.

How were you allowed to hang with Christians in a Muslim majority country,when Muslims are not allowed to free mix and must always lower their gaze,men and women both? Did you become a revert and from a non-Muslim family? Sorry, if the questions are too personal then don't answer.

It was the beauty of Islam that attracted me too. I could list a tonne of stuff but won't, because you have made your choice and I respect that.

Jzk for your replies. rli appreciate it.
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