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Author Topic: arguments against pro-gay: what to say?  (Read 28061 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 19, 2005, 11:01:38 AM »

What should we say when someone promoting the idea that homosexuality is natural claims that:

1) homosexuality is genetic

2) there are gay animals
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2005, 12:01:41 PM »

1) Unproven? Or, if an evolutionist:  soon-to-fail mutation
2) Animals don't marry
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2005, 12:33:06 PM »

I don't know that these answers are persuasive, but here's what I say if it comes up on internet discussions (if it comes up in real life I just ignore the conversation)...

Quote
1) homosexuality is genetic
First point out that this is not proven. But then say that even if this is true, what does it prove? Are all things that are "genetic" a good thing? Certain diseases which causes mental disabilities are "genetic," does that mean we should stop searching for a cure? The same type of argument can be used when people say something like "I was born that way".

Quote
2) there are gay animals
There are also animals who eat their mates after they have sex, and animals who eat their children. How much sense does it make for human beings to take our moral cues from dumb animals? I've been told that dolphins sometimes chase and then gang-rape female dolphins. Hey, if it's good enough for the animals... ? This type of logic doesn't get us very far.
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2005, 12:43:41 PM »

The evolution issue is a big one.  If homosexuality is genetically inherited, how was it propogated?  It would eventually weed itself out of the gene pool due to lack of procreation and thus continuance of said homosexual genetic data.  On the other hand, it could also be viewed as a malfunction.

The animal analogy that was offered was good, too.  Animals might engage in homosexual behavior.  They might also eat their own feces, engage in cannibalism, and reproduce with their siblings.  The habits of irrational beasts are not for rational ones to follow.  Now, if we could just stop killing one another, we'd be getting somewhere!
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2005, 12:50:07 PM »

An afterthought...does anyone here actually know anyone who's homosexual?  I know of at least a couple of people, but as far as I can tell, no one I'm in contact with on a regular basis.  I guess what I'm getting at is that we don't want to lose sight of the fact that because a person's behavior is immoral according to the rules that we as Orthodox Christians govern ourselves by doesn't mean that we shun them and have nothing to do with them.  I have friends who drink too much, gamble and are also busy having sex in a non-religious context.  I guess what I'm trying to get at is the fact that we may view homosexuality as a sin, but let's not forget that many of us have friends who commit many other sins, perhaps more frequently, and let's not forget our own sins as well.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but all sins are equal in God's eyes, are they not?
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2005, 03:02:34 PM »

An afterthought...does anyone here actually know anyone who's homosexual?

Yes, about half of my friends are gay, which is also why I dislike the approach of most people who, however, may be acting in good faith on this issue. You are entirely correct that we have to remember the personal dimension of this.

Marjorie
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2005, 03:53:19 PM »

Same here--many of my friends and colleagues are gay. I've never found that my Orthodoxy makes me treat them any differently than anyone else--as my repitition whenever I'm compelled to find fault in someone else is that I am first among sinners. Whatever and however homosexual activity may be distancing the person from God, I am running full force from Him constantly.  Belief that active homosexual activity is sinful doesn't make loving a person any more difficult than loving anyone else who sins, including yourself.
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2005, 07:31:46 PM »

How about just saying that they will have to remain celebate.  Since sexual relations are only allowed in marriage and marriage can only take place between a male and a female, then they will have to remain celebate, just as heterosexuals who aren't married have to do. 

I agree with Marjorie and Choirfiend.  We all have our crosses to bear, and, IMHO, this would be one of the hardest crosses to bear.  They have to be celebate the rest of their lives and, also, they face rejection by other Christians, since some Christians want nothing to do with homosexuals.  Some people think that if a person is a homosexual, they are sexually active.  That is not the case, but there are many who don't seem to know that.  We need to help them in their struggle, just as we hope and need others to help us in our struggle. 
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2005, 08:27:22 PM »

Some people think that if a person is a homosexual, they are sexually active. That is not the case, but there are many who don't seem to know that. We need to help them in their struggle, just as we hope and need others to help us in our struggle.

Amen.

Marjorie
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2005, 08:59:48 PM »

Such a tough issue. Where I'm currently living, there are a great many homosexuals. A thriving arts community here seemed to open the door for them. Having homosexuals as friends and co-workers here has really forced me to examine the issue. My personal conclusion is this- most active homosexuals, for whatever reason, were born with their homosexual desires and feel as if they're lying to themselves , or are missing an integral part of themselves if they reject that desire. For them, I believe, being with a woman would be just as uncomfortable as me being with a man. With that in mind I approach the issue on two levels. The level of "theory" and the level of "reality". In theory, I believe they should remain single, but chances are I won't tell any of my gay friends this because it will usually only serve to isolate them further. In reality, when they ask me what I think of their lifestyle I usually say out of kindness "it's none of my business." Which, I suppose even from a Christian point of view, it isn't. I have too many of my own sins to deal with before I can start playing spiritual father or taking the moral high ground.

As for "gay marriage". It's an impossibility. The state can call it whatever it wishes, if it happens to be legalized. However, in the context of the Church, what they call "marriage" will of course never be the sacrament of marriage.  As far as arguments against gay marriage- I don't believe a real one exists outside of a religious framework. If you are discussing the issue with an atheist, or a secularized believer, no religious argument will hold water and it's not worth debating. That's why I believe the Orthodox Church shouldn't be a Church of "issues" like the Catholics seem to have become...always tackling a new social, moral, or ethical issue. It's like the "watering the leaves" analogy. All of this moral decline which we see represented through the issues of our day can only be solved on a spiritual level. The level that addresses the root of the problem and in fact "waters the root"...not the "leaves". The real problem is unbelief, and from the dead root of unbelief springs forth these rotten leaves.


EDIT:
For some reason when I was writing I thought the initial question was about gay marriage. oops. ha.
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2005, 11:12:29 PM »

An afterthought...does anyone here actually know anyone who's homosexual?

I've been involved in theater since I was, oh, eight or so.  What do you think?   Wink

Quote
I guess what I'm trying to get at is the fact that we may view homosexuality as a sin, but let's not forget that many of us have friends who commit many other sins, perhaps more frequently, and let's not forget our own sins as well.

Good call.
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2005, 11:28:36 PM »

I was in theater all four years of high school.  I know exactly what you're talking about, hermano  Azn
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2005, 12:07:09 AM »

I've been involved in theater since I was, oh, eight or so. What do you think? Wink

 laugh  LOL!!!
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2005, 12:39:41 AM »

As someone who is coming out of that lifestyle (have been prayerful and celibate for a year now), I must interject with an opinion coming from first-hand experience.  People are born that way in the sense that everyone is born with certain proclivities toward this or that.  I don't remember making a conscious choice toward that lifestyle, but I did choose to feed those proclivities and thus became a slave to them.  I would still be trapped in that life if it weren't for the Grace of Almighty God and the prayers of those who love both Him and me.  I still struggle, but I rely now upon God, who is the Author and the Finisher of my Faith.  He began a good work in me and He will be faithful to complete it unto the day of Jesus Christ.

We must never be moderate on this subject.  Obviously we must love and be loving, but we must not tolerate that behavior and must make it clear that it is wrong and there are eternal consequences for such behavior.  It won't be popular, but what is right so often isn't.

Love,
Adrian
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2005, 12:51:12 AM »

Well, Adrian, I suppose you are right to say in one way that we can't tolerate this behaviour, but if someone is outside the Church, we can't force them to adapt to our norms. I think that what some of the others who have posted here are trying to say is that all of us have our passions and need to overcome them. Passions are passions. They aren't different because they're purple or green or homosexual or heterosexual. The other posters have just said "Who am I to judge others, when I am a slave to my own passions?" I think this is true. And even if we are not a slave to our passions, it still has not been given to us to judge others. But in one sense, I agree with what you have said completely.

I think it's wonderful that God is granting you his Grace in this struggle. Thanks for telling us about this, I think it's important for us to hear stories like this.

Bob
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2005, 10:31:43 AM »

Pravo, sorry for not clarifying.  I meant within the Church.  I know we can't expect those outside the Church to conform to Her standards, but we must not tolerate such unrepentant behavior inside the Church for,"know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole batch."  I also think we should make it very clear to those entering the Church, that She has a standard of morality and such behavior needs to be repented of and they should seek guidance from the priest and remain faithful in prayer.  These are just my thoughts...I will just be beginning my Catechumenate in a few days, so maybe I am incorrect, but I think that not making this clear could be a stumbling block, for those, like myself, who through the Grace of God are leaving homosexuality behind them.

In Christ,
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2005, 09:26:55 PM »

It saddens me that homosexuality is treated as natural or normal just as it saddens me that being sexually active outside marriage is treated as normal. I naturally agree that we should flee from judging but I think if homosexuals ask or others ask about what Christianity has to say about homosexuality we should let them know.
Particularly in St.Pauls Epistle to the Romans 2:
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2005, 06:58:42 PM »

I honestly think there is no such thing as a de facto "homosexual person."  I only believe there are confused people that fall for such temptations and are driven to believe themselves as homo.  There are those that claim it is genetic- they will never find their "gay gene."  Then there are those that claim homosexuals to be in a minority group, as something comparable to an ethnic minority.  That is rubbish, pure and simple.  A minority group is defined by its members having been born some way, and since gayness has yet to be proven genetic, those claims are false.  I agree with brother Sabbas.  We should never become so lax about such issues.  We should, however, be as St. John Chrysostom, who stood firmly against those who wished to pervert the way of truth.
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2005, 08:12:46 PM »

StShen,

I don't agree. I definitely think that there are the confused types out there that you mention, but there are also those for whom it is "programmed" into who they are, and they can't do anything about it, except to battle their passions like anyone else. 

Homosexuality is perfectly natural  in a fallen world.   There are plenty of things in the natural world that are in reality quite unnatural because of the fallen state of the world. 

I don't know why you're talking about being lax or permissive when it comes to homosexuality.  No one here is suggesting that practicing homosexuality should be encouraged or tolerated within the Church.  However, I have a lot of my own passions to deal with that are not homosexual in origin but passions nonetheless.  I don't see why I should be concerned with the speck that is in my brother's eye when I have to deal with this plank in my own eye.

Bob
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2005, 08:34:24 PM »

1. Why can't gay people reproduce if it is genetic? That claim makes no sense.

2. Moneies eat poop. That's not right. People sodomize. That's not right.
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2005, 08:37:58 PM »

I believe Ibrahim means "monkeys."  At any rate, this is true.  Did not God intend that mankind should be a superior form to that of animals?  Why should we denigrate our nature by comparing humans to animals?

Praboslavbob,

True, we are all sinners, but in matters of principle, we should stand of for truth.  That is the thought I intended to pose.

And, I'm not so sure what you mean by homosexuality being "perfectly natural in a fallen world" when such a sin has been present since the days of Noah.  Maybe the fallen world you refer to is the world after the fall of humanity from the first paradise.  In that case, the weakness of the world in modern times is no excuse for such behavior.
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2005, 09:13:32 PM »

Ibrahim and StShenouti, I don't think you understood my post.

Yes, by the fallen world, I mean the world that we live in and have lived in for thousands of years or perhaps longer because of the sin of Adam. It is the teaching of the Church, that, because of this, many things exist in nature that should not be the way that they are, but are nonetheless that way because of the death and defornation introduced into the world by man's sin.  Homosexuality in the animal kingdom is one  manifestation of this.    Another example is the way a female praying mantis will bite the head off of the male when they are reproducing.  Or the very fact that many animals eat other animals in order to live.

Of course we are called to something higher.  We are called to transcend this fallen naturalism and embrace and manifest what is truly natural, the Kingdom which is to come.  I'm not saying that there is an excuse for any kind of fallen behaviour.  My point is, why are you singling out homosexuality?  Rampant indiscriminate homosexual behaviour is wrong.  So is rampant indiscriminate heterosexual behaviour.  Of course, heterosexual behavoiur has a legitimate outlet, and homosexual behavour does not.  But then neither does cheating, killing, overeating, drunkeness, pride, etc. etc.

Ibrahim, there may well be other ways that homosexual behaviour can be innate rather than in the strict genetic sense.

Bob
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2005, 10:52:39 AM »

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2005, 12:01:34 PM »

This may sound odd, but some of the first grownups i remember meeting (of my mothers friends) were a pair of ex-priests who were gay. I live in a place where there is a section at the county clerks office to register partnerships.  Very liberal town, obvioulsly. I also work with a young man contemplating the priesthood who is also an active member of the university's Gay Rights group.  I havent even thought about asking him how he is dealing with this, but one would assume that if he is contemplating the priesthood he is inclined to be celibate..one follows, right? (hes Catholic)  I even think a guy I dated for a while was actually gay, or at least bi.  So I've known/do know lots of people.  Personally no, not my thang...


I do like this, the way you put it, very much. Of course we are called to something higher.  We are called to transcend this fallen naturalism and embrace and manifest what is truly natural, the Kingdom which is to come.  I'm not saying that there is an excuse for any kind of fallen behaviour.  My point is, why are you singling out homosexuality?  Rampant indiscriminate homosexual behaviour is wrong.  So is rampant indiscriminate heterosexual behaviour.  Of course, heterosexual behavoiur has a legitimate outlet, and homosexual behavour does not.  But then neither does cheating, killing, overeating, drunkeness, pride, etc. etc.
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2005, 05:39:55 PM »

Aurelia, I have a problem with your equivocation of "rampant hetero behavior" and "homo behavior."  I don't care- once you start talking about homo, that's a whole other level of bad.
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2005, 06:08:51 PM »

Aurelia, I have a problem with your equivocation of "rampant hetero behavior" and "homo behavior." I don't care- once you start talking about homo, that's a whole other level of bad.

Maybe, but possibly not, at least depending on the attitude(s) of the person(s) involved. Are you prejudiced against homosexuals?
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2005, 06:13:02 PM »

I do like this, the way you put it, very much. .[/i]

Thanks! At least someone likes it.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2005, 07:15:31 PM »

Hi everyone,

If they ever find the "gay gene" then you will see millions of gays jump off the abortion band wagon because then we will see abortion due to sexual orientation. ekke. Do the homosexuals really want to go there?

I think homosexuality is a sin that needs repenting of plain and simple. If someone asks that will be my answer. Does that mean I hate gays? No, it means I love them so much I wont lie to them.

SetFree,

Best wishes on your journey into Orthodoxy. God bless you.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2005, 07:38:01 PM »

I think homosexuality is a sin that needs repenting of plain and simple.

Orthodoxy,

If by this you mean homosexual acts, then yes this is true.  If by this you mean simply BEING homosexual, then this is not a Christian attitude to have.   I think  "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a good standard to have in cases like this.

Bob
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2005, 09:57:32 PM »

I don't care- once you start talking about homo, that's a whole other level of bad.

A statement like "a whole other level of bad" goes against the teachings of the church regarding the nature of sin and how sinful acts affect our relationship with God.  All sins are equal in the eyes of God, for each one serves to separate us from Him.  The idea behind this is that, since God has no boundaries in space or time, sin attempts to separate us - period.  There is no "small separation" or "big separation" - just separation.

The only place where we see categorization (sp?) of sins is within the Church - where some sins affect the community more than others.  Therefore, the Church has different standards of how to correct that behavior.  But otherwise, in our relationship to God, all sins are equal - this is Orthodox theology.

So it stands to reason, sex outside of marriage in any form is sinful equally - whether it is homosexual or not.  The difference is that there is no chance of homosexual sex being part of marriage, versus heterosexual sex which can be.

Sorry for the ramble.  My apologies.
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2005, 10:23:53 PM »

I don't get it...

I thought in the eyes of our faith, all sin was treated equal.  Why is homosexual sin greater than heterosexual sin?  Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2005, 11:38:53 PM »

I thought in the eyes of our faith, all sin was treated equal. Why is homosexual sin greater than heterosexual sin? Huh Huh Huh

Because sodomy is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance.

By law, force, or whatever means necessary,
Stop homosexuality NOW!
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2005, 11:55:55 PM »



Because sodomy is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance.

By law, force, or whatever means necessary,
Stop homosexuality NOW!

Well, it seems that this is an old RC notion.  Where does it come from?
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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2005, 12:00:31 AM »

Well I found this:

The four sins crying to heaven for vengeance are:
1. Wilful murder (Gen. 4)
2. The sin of Sodom (Gen. 18)
3. Oppression of the poor (Exod. 2)
4. Defrauding labourers of their wages (James 5)

here:
http://www.proecclesia.com/penny%20catechism/
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2005, 12:15:43 AM »

Well I found this:

The four sins crying to heaven for vengeance are:
1. Wilful murder (Gen. 4)
2. The sin of Sodom (Gen. 18)
3. Oppression of the poor (Exod. 2)
4. Defrauding labourers of their wages (James 5)

here:
http://www.proecclesia.com/penny%20catechism/


There y'all go, quoting the "pope's" so-called moral authority again...  Shocked
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2005, 12:17:39 AM »

There y'all go, quoting the "pope's" so-called moral authority again... Shocked

You mean...that is not what it is all about?
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2005, 01:16:48 AM »


So it stands to reason, sex outside of marriage in any form is sinful equally - whether it is homosexual or not. The difference is that there is no chance of homosexual sex being part of marriage, versus heterosexual sex which can be.

Sorry for the ramble. My apologies.

 So heterosexuals are allowed the loving companionship for life but for the gays, it's basically :  SORRY!

   Don't you see how many people find this completely nonsensical???
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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2005, 01:53:35 AM »

Why aren't we up in arms about sins #3 and #4?
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 02:13:41 AM »

Guys,
    The Church cannot keep sinners away and still call herself the Church, but, at the same time, neither should she tolerate sin of her members (in this case willful and unrepentant).  We should welcome all people, because Christ came to give all people Life, but we must let them know that they cannot continue willy-nilly in the sinful life they are leading.  I, as a former homosexual (and one who still struggles, but by the Grace of God am being delivered), must interject.  Being a homosexual isn't natural. 

Are gays born that way???  Yes, in the sense that they, like everyone else, are born mortal and have a proclivity toward sin.  What happens, and I can attest to this from my own life, is that we feel these passions and we choose to feed them.  We become enslaved to them and they rule us.  By the power of God, though, the chains of these passions can be broken.  How???  They must here the truth in love (Orthodoxy, you said it!).  And then, if they are wanting to change (there is the problem, they often have been blinded by the lies of Satan and don't want to give their precious slavery up.), they must begin to pray in earnest and seek help from a priest and get advice from a spiritual father.

BTW, Orthodoxy, you'll be happy to know that I started my catechumenate today.  My priest has given me a lot of reading, but I am excited and happy.

In Christ,
Adrian
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2005, 02:15:32 AM »

Why aren't we up in arms about sins #3 and #4?

That's why God made Democrats... so you don't have to worry about #3 & #4.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 02:16:20 AM by Lemko Rusyn » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2005, 02:40:11 AM »

This may be slightly off the subject but did anyone hear what the Roman Pope had to say about so called gay marriage in his new book?

Here is a snipet from Rueters:

"Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society, Pope John Paul says in a new book published Tuesday."
""It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes."

Also, here is the remark he made comparing abortion to the holocaust genocide that upset some whiney liberal jews.

"In "Memory and Identity," the Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century."

What do you guys think, is the Pope off his rocker or is he a modern day prophet speaking truth into a lost demoralized world?




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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2005, 08:31:13 AM »

Aurelia, I have a problem with your equivocation of "rampant hetero behavior" and "homo behavior." I don't care- once you start talking about homo, that's a whole other level of bad.
I didnt make that post, i merely said i liked how that was put.  I personally don't like watching a hetero couple going at it in a mall any more that i would like to see a homosexual couple going at it at the mall.  And just because one doesnt like homosexuality, doesnt mean that it doesn't occur.  I'm not going to go bashing beople just because i dont care for the lifestyle myself. 
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2005, 08:47:21 AM »

I don't believe there is a such thing as a "homosexual person."  I prefer to call it a "temptation" that brings about an evil lifestyle.

As to the equality or inequality of sin, all sins are not equal.  True, they will all grant one a place in eternal damnation, but there are also varying levels of hell.  Surely, in our own weak judgments, would we place a murderer at the same level of damnation as that of a thief?  Just as there are varying rewards in heaven for the saints, there is a similar "heirarchy" for those in hell.  Which of us can say we have attained the same level of spirituality as Abba Anthony the Great?  Or how about Pope St. Cyril the VI of Alexandria?  Let us not fool ourselves.
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2005, 10:01:45 AM »

So heterosexuals are allowed the loving companionship for life but for the gays, it's basically : SORRY!

 Don't you see how many people find this completely nonsensical???

I'm sorry if I failed to mention the following point, but here we go:
sex was instituted by God for procreation, with the added benefit of drawing us closer together in our bond.  Thus, the use of sex for non-procreative purposes is strongly condemned in the Scripture - in the OT, it even brings death.  The idea of having sex without the possibility of procreation violates the purpose for which it was instituted.  This means that masturbation, oral sex to its own end, and any other sex involving any other part of the body (to its own end) other than the intended ones is prohibited - both for hetero- and homo-sexuals. 

That's why homosexual sexual acts will never be condoned - because there is absolutely no possibility for procreation.  THe sacrament of marriage is one that requires the two communicants to be able to procreate with one another (at least in the ideal - we wont get into if one is sterile or something like that, thats a whole other ballgame).

Two homosexual people can have a long-time companionship of friendship and brother/sister-hood in Christ, but it can't involve "sleeping together" - that's all.  Pure minds and pure hearts must prevail - just as it must happen with a male and a female.
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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2005, 12:13:35 PM »

I still disagree with the notion of a person really having a "homosexual" nature.  I think it's just a form of brainwashing one's self into believe he/she is gay.  Remember, the APA used to list homosexuality as a type of disorder, and it was only politics that removed it from the list.
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