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ialmisry
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« Reply #135 on: December 02, 2009, 01:25:07 PM »

For example, 'm-nk-nd' is deemed an inappropriate word to use to refer to all members of Homo sapiens, because the word 'm-n' (which originally did not specify gender) has come to sometimes mean a perbeing who is specifically male.
Wouldn't be a problem if you all spoke God's language (Koine).

The bias towards a masculine ending for non-gender-specific references makes that language unacceptable as well. Wink

Yes, the fact that Persian has NO gender at all (everyone and everything is "it") has done wonders in Iran:

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/bm~pix/a682~s192x384.jpg

My qualms aren't with the Persian language, in fact I think it's a wonderful language, at least when not written in that nasty Arabic script. and I am confident that without Arab intervention, the Persians would today stand with the civilized peoples of the world...poor example.

Ah, always changing the rules when we are loosing the game.....

Btw, the Persians have always mootched their writing system off us taazii Semites, whether from the Babylonian cuneiform, the Aramaic script, or the Arabic alphabet.  Btw, the Persians stood with the civilized peoples of the world before and after the Arab, and then Muslim, conquest.

Btw, Turkish doesn't have gender either.

And Turkey is amongst the most progressive countries of the Molsem world (not that that's saying a lot, but still).

I agree, they are quite adept at genocide, the progress of the 20th century as it put the theory of the 19th century into practice.

What country that is anything today hasn't committed genocide at some point in its history? This ain't the 20th century anymore.

"But everyone does it."  Always a solid moral compass. Roll Eyes

The East Roman Empire, one of the differences between it and the present Greek state.

Yes, I know we have entered a new century, where all sorts of "progress" is underway...
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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ialmisry
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« Reply #136 on: December 02, 2009, 01:25:59 PM »

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Hey! Only Greeki is allowed to pick and chose, and cherry pick, his "facts."

At least I occasionally throw facts into my posts, maybe you should try it sometime?

I always do.  Maybe your inability ever to refute one may have made you miss that.
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« Reply #137 on: December 02, 2009, 01:34:15 PM »

For example, 'm-nk-nd' is deemed an inappropriate word to use to refer to all members of Homo sapiens, because the word 'm-n' (which originally did not specify gender) has come to sometimes mean a perbeing who is specifically male.
Wouldn't be a problem if you all spoke God's language (Koine).

The bias towards a masculine ending for non-gender-specific references makes that language unacceptable as well. Wink

Yes, the fact that Persian has NO gender at all (everyone and everything is "it") has done wonders in Iran:

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/bm~pix/a682~s192x384.jpg

My qualms aren't with the Persian language, in fact I think it's a wonderful language, at least when not written in that nasty Arabic script. and I am confident that without Arab intervention, the Persians would today stand with the civilized peoples of the world...poor example.

Ah, always changing the rules when we are loosing the game.....

Btw, the Persians have always mootched their writing system off us taazii Semites, whether from the Babylonian cuneiform, the Aramaic script, or the Arabic alphabet.  Btw, the Persians stood with the civilized peoples of the world before and after the Arab, and then Muslim, conquest.

Btw, Turkish doesn't have gender either.

And Turkey is amongst the most progressive countries of the Molsem world (not that that's saying a lot, but still).

I agree, they are quite adept at genocide, the progress of the 20th century as it put the theory of the 19th century into practice.

What country that is anything today hasn't committed genocide at some point in its history? This ain't the 20th century anymore.

"But everyone does it."  Always a solid moral compass. Roll Eyes

Yes, let's condemn the current generation because of what they grandparents and great grandparents did...that's a solid moral standard. Roll Eyes

Quote
The East Roman Empire, one of the differences between it and the present Greek state.

You're honestly not making that claim after the persecution of the Arians, Nestorians, and Monophosites...all of which tended to be prevalent amongst ethnic minorities within the Empire. You didn't honestly think it was doctrine that motivated the Emperor's councils, did you?

Quote
Yes, I know we have entered a new century, where all sorts of "progress" is underway...

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #138 on: December 02, 2009, 01:36:54 PM »

Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. Wink

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Personally I'll take the words of a Saint over a person who puts his faith in 2+2 any day.

What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

I remember a philosopher of religion who pointed out that those who demand that God be proved up front had no problem putting faith in mathematical equations that they had never done before.

I am funny that way. An Atheist is just someone who is so arrogant that they cant possibly conceive of anything being greater then they are.

I am a free sentient being, free to thing as I will, free to believe as I will, free from the despotism of the mind...I can think of nothing greater.

yes, evidently free from consequences and reality too it seems.

Its strange how atheists cannot acknowledge that the worst atrocities have happened under atheists. Take Stalin

Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment. He demanded worship, worship of the party, worship of the state, and, above all, worship of himself. No ideology, no philosophy, no system of beliefs can have any merit or redeeming grace without liberty.

And that would make him different from the "enlightenment" how?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/F%C3%AAte_de_la_Raison_1793.jpg


and Hitler as good examples.

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

So an atheist usuing Christian language to score propaganda points.  Not the first, wasn't the last.

I'll take what Christianity means, and Christian principles, from a confessing Christian, which Hitler turned out not to be.

Where's the quote from? Not that I doubt he said it, but when it comes politicians, audience matters. I don't see him calling himself a Christian there--I do see him trying to make the claim that Christianity and National Socialism aren't at odds so Christians can safely support him against the far worse third-parties (Bolshevists, Atheists, and criminals). Which makes him a politician, not a Christian.

LOL. Spot on!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 01:46:35 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #139 on: December 02, 2009, 01:40:20 PM »

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. Wink

Oh well, it was worth a try. Grin

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. Smiley

I'll be your huckleberry.  Kiss  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Now I know that it has been pointed out to you several times, that this "belief" sprung from Protestants diluting their Christianity with the "enlightenment" (which brought on the Atlantic slave trade), and has nothing to do with Apostolic Christianity.  Yet you still cling to it.....

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #140 on: December 02, 2009, 01:41:54 PM »

but he was a Christian.
No he was not. The Founder of Christianity said: "By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another".
At any rate, here are some more quotes of Mr. Hitler you may not know about from the book "Adolf Hitler", London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)


Thanks for the facts George. I'm afraid Greeki will just go further into denial.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #141 on: December 02, 2009, 01:45:36 PM »

but he was a Christian.
No he was not. The Founder of Christianity said: "By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another".
At any rate, here are some more quotes of Mr. Hitler you may not know about from the book "Adolf Hitler", London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)


Oh YAY, a Hitler quotefest, it's just like watching the History Channel on OC.net. My Turn. Wink

Quote
    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Thus, Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God's truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 28 July 1922

In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day.

-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 10 April 1923

It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923

Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

Well, that's about enough, but one more one to show that he was continuing the Tradition of the Catholic Church:

Quote
The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933

Hitler may not have been of the same Christian sect as you, but he was most certainly a follower of Christ.
....who was a Hebrew ("salvation is from the Jew"). Hardly a follower.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #142 on: December 02, 2009, 01:50:00 PM »

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

Where's the quote from? Not that I doubt he said it, but when it comes politicians, audience matters. I don't see him calling himself a Christian there--I do see him trying to make the claim that Christianity and National Socialism aren't at odds so Christians can safely support him against the far worse third-parties (Bolshevists, Atheists, and criminals). Which makes him a politician, not a Christian.

Sorry, missed that line in my quotefest Wink

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

BTW, forgot to cite my source...I obviously got all these off the internet, I don't keep my personal hitler quotes file Grin

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

But you're right, politicians always play to the crowd, but hitler had a Christian upbringing and, to the end, was convinced he was doing God's bidding. He was hardly an atheist by any definition.
According to the Orthodox Christian one, he was.
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« Reply #143 on: December 02, 2009, 01:56:24 PM »

Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. Wink

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Personally I'll take the words of a Saint over a person who puts his faith in 2+2 any day.

What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

I remember a philosopher of religion who pointed out that those who demand that God be proved up front had no problem putting faith in mathematical equations that they had never done before.

I can not remember the last time I used a mathematical convention that I had not previously proved myself or at least read and understood the proof of why it works and is valid. But if it's any consolation, I share the disdain for those who would use mathematics and, yet, are unable to to provide proofs for the validity of their work.

Quote
Its strange how atheists cannot acknowledge that the worst atrocities have happened under atheists. Take Stalin

Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment. He demanded worship, worship of the party, worship of the state, and, above all, worship of himself. No ideology, no philosophy, no system of beliefs can have any merit or redeeming grace without liberty.

And that would make him different from the "enlightenment" how?

Liberty was a far more fundamental element of the enlightenment than even atheism (actually, true atheism was something of a side note to history until Darwin lifted the vale of ignorance from our eyes).

Quote

Reason, the only true goddess, the only deity worthy of veneration!

Quote
and Hitler as good examples.

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

So an atheist usuing Christian language to score propaganda points.  Not the first, wasn't the last.

Most debates have been around whether Hitler was a Christian, a pagan, or a spiritualist...but it's really only in anti-atheist propaganda that I've seen him called an 'atheist', which I have seen no evidence to support.

Quote
I'll take what Christianity means, and Christian principles, from a confessing Christian, which Hitler turned out not to be.

Like the Russian Tzars? Big step up. LOL
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« Reply #144 on: December 02, 2009, 01:58:10 PM »

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. Wink

Oh well, it was worth a try. Grin

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. Smiley

I'll be your huckleberry.  Kiss  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Now I know that it has been pointed out to you several times, that this "belief" sprung from Protestants diluting their Christianity with the "enlightenment" (which brought on the Atlantic slave trade), and has nothing to do with Apostolic Christianity.  Yet you still cling to it.....

Never said it was, I was using this linguistic concept called analogy, mixed with a hint of sarcasm, ever heard of them?
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« Reply #145 on: December 02, 2009, 02:00:00 PM »

....who was a Hebrew ("salvation is from the Jew"). Hardly a follower.

Oh, they took care of that, they just believed Jesus was an Aryan. But, in truth, it's all made up anyway, so what difference does it make? Adding one lie to the millions in religion is like adding a raindrop to a pond.
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« Reply #146 on: December 02, 2009, 02:24:38 PM »

Christians anti-semitic and homophobic??? Please, say it ain't so! I would never have guessed in 2000 years. Wink

Maybe bad (or poorly practicing) Christians.  You know, that entire New Testament thing that speaks about love - it doesn't leave too much room for hate.  Just because the two of you don't accept it doesn't mean you have to over-generalize about imperfect Christians or mischaracterize our faith.

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

Personally I'll take the words of a Saint over a person who puts his faith in 2+2 any day.

What an impoverished view of Mathematics you have, a lack of understand and appreciation for the theorems and proofs of theoretical mathematics is a most sad and unfortunate thing.

I remember a philosopher of religion who pointed out that those who demand that God be proved up front had no problem putting faith in mathematical equations that they had never done before.

I can not remember the last time I used a mathematical convention that I had not previously proved myself or at least read and understood the proof of why it works and is valid. But if it's any consolation, I share the disdain for those who would use mathematics and, yet, are unable to to provide proofs for the validity of their work.

Quote
Its strange how atheists cannot acknowledge that the worst atrocities have happened under atheists. Take Stalin

Stalin may not have been a Christian, but he was not a true atheist, at least not in the sense of the enlightenment. He demanded worship, worship of the party, worship of the state, and, above all, worship of himself. No ideology, no philosophy, no system of beliefs can have any merit or redeeming grace without liberty.

And that would make him different from the "enlightenment" how?

Liberty was a far more fundamental element of the enlightenment than even atheism (actually, true atheism was something of a side note to history until Darwin lifted the vale of ignorance from our eyes).

What is "True Atheism?" What Atheists don't do.


and that they did

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Cruikshank_-_The_Radical%27s_Arms.png
Just in case you can't read the banner, it says ""No God! No Religion! No King! No Constitution!""

and Hitler as good examples.

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

So an atheist usuing Christian language to score propaganda points.  Not the first, wasn't the last.

Most debates have been around whether Hitler was a Christian, a pagan, or a spiritualist...but it's really only in anti-atheist propaganda that I've seen him called an 'atheist', which I have seen no evidence to support.

Could that be because the debate where he is a Christian, pagan, or spiritualist largely goes on in anti-Christian and anti-theist/deist/spiritual circles?

I'll take what Christianity means, and Christian principles, from a confessing Christian, which Hitler turned out not to be.

Like the Russian Tzars? Big step up. LOL

Yes, Hitler was much, much more effective in killing off the Jews (and others) than the Czar was.  Not to mention that the majority ended up in the East because they were expelled from the West.
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« Reply #147 on: December 02, 2009, 02:27:02 PM »

Like St. John Chrysostom who said in his Homily Against the Jews:

Quote
And why do I speak of the immorality that goes on [at Rosh Hashanah]? Are you not afraid that your wife may not come back from there after a demon has possessed her soul? Did you not hear in my previous discourse the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews and in places in which they gather? Tell me, then. How do you Judaizers have the boldness, after dancing with demons, to come back to the assembly of the apostles?

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/homily-ii.htm

Maybe he was a 'bad (or poorly practicing) Christian', but the Church seems to think he's ok:

Quote
The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.

http://www.goarch.org/chapel/saints_view?contentid=405

Hmmm...

We don't claim he's perfect - and neither am I, which is why I'm not taking your bait to judge St. John's words.  Nice try, though.

Oh...that's no fun, I really wanted someone to defend the line: 'the argument which clearly proved to us that demons dwell in the very souls of the Jews'. Gods know I've done it in the past. Wink

Oh well, it was worth a try. Grin

Then again, knowing this board, there might still be a taker out there. Smiley

I'll be your huckleberry.  Kiss  I think that either a) St. John was talking about a particular group of Jews

Considering later Chrysostom says 'What greater evidence could there be that a man does not love our Lord than when he participates in the festival with those who slew Christ?', I think it's safe to assume he's talking about all the 'Christ-Killers', which apparently doesn't just mean a particular mob in the 1st century, but all subsequent Jews. Guess it's kinda like that whole blacks being sinful because they're apparently descendants of Cain (did skin pigmentation really diverge that quickly, or was it a divine curse?).

Now I know that it has been pointed out to you several times, that this "belief" sprung from Protestants diluting their Christianity with the "enlightenment" (which brought on the Atlantic slave trade), and has nothing to do with Apostolic Christianity.  Yet you still cling to it.....

Never said it was, I was using this linguistic concept called analogy, mixed with a hint of sarcasm, ever heard of them?
False analogy. Sure, heard of it a lot in your posts.
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« Reply #148 on: December 02, 2009, 02:27:59 PM »

....who was a Hebrew ("salvation is from the Jew"). Hardly a follower.

Oh, they took care of that, they just believed Jesus was an Aryan. But, in truth, it's all made up anyway, so what difference does it make? Adding one lie to the millions in religion is like adding a raindrop to a pond.

another drop you contribute to the pond of atheism.....but why is the puddle yellow?
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« Reply #149 on: December 02, 2009, 02:44:18 PM »

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
How Leibnizian. Oh, the irony!
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« Reply #150 on: December 02, 2009, 02:47:36 PM »

What is "True Atheism?" What Atheists don't do.

I was referring to Atheism without a belief in a 'first cause' or something like that, which was common in 18th and early 19th century forms.

Quote
and that they did

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Cruikshank_-_The_Radical%27s_Arms.png
Just in case you can't read the banner, it says ""No God! No Religion! No King! No Constitution!""

Propaganda posters, what a great argument...are these the things you're confusing for 'facts'? Just look at those evil proletariats, they should have remained content under the oppressive heel of their despot-king. There were a few extremes during the French Revolution, but, ultimately, it was necessary.

Quote
and Hitler as good examples.

Oh no...he's yours:

'National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.'

-Adolf Hitler

You may not agree with all his theology, but he was a Christian. In fact, much of the theology you might find most distasteful comes down the line from Chrysostom.

So an atheist usuing Christian language to score propaganda points.  Not the first, wasn't the last.

Most debates have been around whether Hitler was a Christian, a pagan, or a spiritualist...but it's really only in anti-atheist propaganda that I've seen him called an 'atheist', which I have seen no evidence to support.

Could that be because the debate where he is a Christian, pagan, or spiritualist largely goes on in anti-Christian and anti-theist/deist/spiritual circles?

I'll take what Christianity means, and Christian principles, from a confessing Christian, which Hitler turned out not to be.

Like the Russian Tzars? Big step up. LOL

Yes, Hitler was much, much more effective in killing off the Jews (and others) than the Czar was.  Not to mention that the majority ended up in the East because they were expelled from the West.

But the Tzars were at a disadvantage, lacking the modern weapons of war and poison gas available to the Nazis. Not to mention they were terrible administrators. The fact that they killed fewer was due to incompetency, not intent.
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« Reply #151 on: December 02, 2009, 02:50:21 PM »

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
How Leibnizian. Oh, the irony!

It's not the optimal among all possible worlds, just the best we've seen yet. As science and technology advances so will our quality of life.
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« Reply #152 on: December 02, 2009, 02:55:01 PM »

Propaganda posters, what a great argument...are these the things you're confusing for 'facts'? Just look at those evil proletariats, they should have remained content under the oppressive heel of their despot-king. There were a few extremes during the French Revolution, but, ultimately, it was necessary.

"There is no more Vendée, Republican citizens. It died beneath our free sword, with its women and its children. I have just buried it in the swamps and the woods of Savenay. Following the orders that you gave to me, I crushed the children beneath the horses' hooves, massacred the women who, those at least, will bear no more brigands. I do not have a single prisoner to reproach myself with. I have exterminated them all..." - General François Joseph Westermann

I would post pictures of the human skins....but I fear it is too graphic for the forum!
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« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2009, 03:28:23 PM »

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
How Leibnizian. Oh, the irony!

It's not the optimal among all possible worlds, just the best we've seen yet. As science and technology advances so will our quality of life.
The idea was that Leibniz sidestepped the problem of evil by believing in both determinism and denying that evil "exists." Determinism isn't the sole domain of Calvinists, pre-Christian Greeks and East Asians as people like Hume demonstrate. So it doesn't matter that you don't consider this world the best of all possible ones; you have a common ground with Leibniz in numbers fetishism and dancing around the question/problem of evil.

Your faith ("faith," in this case meaning confidence that something you expect will happen will indeed happen) in technology is quaint, but besides the point. If we Christians are to answer for "our" homophobia and antisemitism, you also have to realize that the science that produced vaccines and medicines and Playstation 3's also produced nuclear weapons and other, more refined ways of killing people.

And I know you're going to say that video game makers and doctors didn't work on the Manhattan project nor were they students of Dr. Mengele. But all these people used science and technology, right? This, of course, is the same "logic" by which people like you condemn Christianity.
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« Reply #154 on: December 02, 2009, 03:57:42 PM »

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
How Leibnizian. Oh, the irony!

It's not the optimal among all possible worlds, just the best we've seen yet. As science and technology advances so will our quality of life.

The idea was that Leibniz sidestepped the problem of evil by believing in both determinism and denying that evil "exists." Determinism isn't the sole domain of Calvinists, pre-Christian Greeks and East Asians as people like Hume demonstrate. So it doesn't matter that you don't consider this world the best of all possible ones; you have a common ground with Leibniz in numbers fetishism and dancing around the question/problem of evil.

In a remote way, perhaps. I don't believe there is a 'question/problem of evil', certain behaviours are not conducive to the advancement and preservation of society and, hence, we have labeled them as 'evil'. And, as time advances, as our collective experience grows, we better understand what is conducive to the benefit of society and thus have a more thorough understanding of 'evil'. Evil is not some entity or metaphysical reality, it is simply a label for a large number of anti-social behaviours.

Quote
Your faith ("faith," in this case meaning confidence that something you expect will happen will indeed happen) in technology is quaint, but besides the point.

It's more hope than faith. I have faith in the consistency of the axioms of number theory, I have hope that humanity will continue to improve the world.

Quote
If we Christians are to answer for "our" homophobia and antisemitism, you also have to realize that the science that produced vaccines and medicines and Playstation 3's also produced nuclear weapons and other, more refined ways of killing people. And I know you're going to say that video game makers and doctors didn't work on the Manhattan project nor were they students of Dr. Mengele.

As someone who fully supported the development and deployment of nuclear weapons and as someone who thinks scientific research, including research into military technology, I don't really think we I have anything to defend. A nuclear bomb does not kill people by itself, it does not tell you to kill people, it does not even encourage you to kill people (if anything, it discourages it because of the ramifications)...it's nothing more than a glorified version of a club, it accomplishes the exact same thing, only on a larger scale. And Dr. Mengele's research was rather uninfluential, his frostbite research is the only thing that has shown any use and promise. And his research is suspect not because of the gruesome methods he used but because of failure to use proper control groups, lack of proper statistical analysis, and the poor quality of his research notes...these are of more concern to science than his methods. Science is amoral, it makes no judgments as to whether something is right or wrong, just whether or not it is objectively verifiable. His methods actually hurt his science due to the reservations his peers had at reproducing his results.

Quote
But all these people used science and technology, right? This, of course, is the same "logic" by which people like you condemn Christianity.

Though the abuses of those who have used religion to their ends is manifest, there are greater concerns with religion. It's one thing to claim to do something in the name of a religion, it's another thing for him to be officially venerated or honored by the religion in the light of his actions (which can be said of several Emperor and Tzar-saints in Christianity, or, say, Luther and Calvin amongst the Protestants, or Mohammad amongst the Moslems, or Moses and Joshua amongst the Jews). With science, we are capable of making use of one's research without condoning their means or their person, we can say 'he was truly evil, but we won't simply dismiss the knowledge gained' because science is amoral. Religion, which takes a moral stance, does not have this luxury; you cannot say that the work of Mohammad was good and useful, but his actions were evil, so we condemn him as an evil man, but give our lives over to the doctrine he developed and espoused. It is this concept of morality attached to an institution, often an absolute morality, that is the weakness of religion and what causes religion to be a danger to society.
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« Reply #155 on: December 02, 2009, 03:58:29 PM »

Which is why it's called a deathstyle rather than a lifestyle.
I'm glad we're agreed that homosexuality is not a lifestyle.

See, so far we've got concessions that homosexuals exist and that it's not just a lifestyle. I think we're making real progress here. Wink
There is not a single study that proves that homosexuality is not a lifestyle.
http://www2.nau.edu/~bio372-c/class/behavior/apbg.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From “Human Sexual Orientation:  The Biologic Theories Reappraised”

“there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory, just as there is no compelling evidence to support any singular psychosocial explanation. While all behavior must have an ultimate biologic substrate, the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking.”

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/50/3/228
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find one study that conclusively proves that minute brain differences in the hypothalamus, midsagittal area of the anterior commissure, suprachiasmatic nucleus, and/or the gay gene cause homosexuality.  (Remember that LeVay’s studies, identifying minute brain changes in homosexuals, was discovered after postmortem exams of AIDS patients, very possibly prescribed immune therapies and antiviral meds.
(The CARE Act was enacted in 1990 to help poor and uninsured individuals with HIV/AIDS get primary care, support services and life-sustaining medications.)
-----------------------------------------------------------


Simone LeVay’s results, 1991, were never replicated.
--------------------------------------------------------

"Time and again I have been described as someone who 'proved that homosexuality is genetic' ... I did not."
quote from Simon LeVay in The Sexual Brain, p. 122.  (LeVay is the neuroanatomist who compiled the research that is frequently quoted to support the non-proven theory that homosexuality has a biological origin.)



There is no doubt that homosexuality is NOT a monogenic trait, and it is very likely to be NOT a POLYgenic trait. Homosexuality is, most likely, multifactorial. But it is most certainly not a "lifestyle." Just ask people who are homosexual, - was there ever a MOMENT in their life when they MADE A CHOICE to be homosexual rather than heterosexual?
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« Reply #156 on: December 02, 2009, 04:21:19 PM »

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.


Animal behavior is not a benchmark to decide what is “natural”/biological for humans.  Humans have a "benchmark" and it is found in the Holy Bible.
You can't be serious? I mean...really???


LMAO
Uh. You can just replace the words Holy Bible with man-made morality. I can expand concerning the logical fallacy of appeal to nature, but ialmsary already did it in one sentence.


Does it matter if some (or most) Christians are anti-Semetic and homophobic? I thought it was about Orthodox Christianity, not her followers.
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« Reply #157 on: December 02, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice. In the former Soviet Union, homosexual relationships between men were a crime punisheable by at the very least 8 years in hard labor camps (if there were no aggravating circumstances). Yet, I knew people there who were gay and who had gay lovers. Of course, they did not advertise it to every stranger, given the circumstances they were living at. But their close friends knew.

The closest friend of my childhood, who is now a movie and TV celebrity and who was, back then, a very regular schoolboy with a very typical and regular Soviet family (mother - high school principal, father engineer), told his parents that he was gay and in love with a man when he was 15. The parents decided to "treat" him at a psychiatric hospital, telling all the people who knew their son (A.) that A. has chronic pneumonia. A. broke a window with his two bare fists (badly wounding himself) and jumped from the second floor, and literally crawled to his lover. A's parents finally understood that their son just was who he was, and never attempted to "treat" him again.
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« Reply #158 on: December 02, 2009, 04:49:15 PM »

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

Seriously? Even amongst the crowd I hang around, very sexually open, tolerant of any fetish you might have, perfectly accepting of gays...people will do some pretty outlandish things to get attention, but I don't think that's one of them.
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« Reply #159 on: December 02, 2009, 05:43:41 PM »

There's a lot of room for improvement, but it is, without a doubt, the best time in the history of the world.
How Leibnizian. Oh, the irony!

It's not the optimal among all possible worlds, just the best we've seen yet. As science and technology advances so will our quality of life.

The idea was that Leibniz sidestepped the problem of evil by believing in both determinism and denying that evil "exists." Determinism isn't the sole domain of Calvinists, pre-Christian Greeks and East Asians as people like Hume demonstrate. So it doesn't matter that you don't consider this world the best of all possible ones; you have a common ground with Leibniz in numbers fetishism and dancing around the question/problem of evil.

In a remote way, perhaps. I don't believe there is a 'question/problem of evil', certain behaviours are not conducive to the advancement and preservation of society and, hence, we have labeled them as 'evil'. And, as time advances, as our collective experience grows, we better understand what is conducive to the benefit of society and thus have a more thorough understanding of 'evil'. Evil is not some entity or metaphysical reality, it is simply a label for a large number of anti-social behaviours.

Quote
Your faith ("faith," in this case meaning confidence that something you expect will happen will indeed happen) in technology is quaint, but besides the point.

It's more hope than faith. I have faith in the consistency of the axioms of number theory, I have hope that humanity will continue to improve the world.

Quote
If we Christians are to answer for "our" homophobia and antisemitism, you also have to realize that the science that produced vaccines and medicines and Playstation 3's also produced nuclear weapons and other, more refined ways of killing people. And I know you're going to say that video game makers and doctors didn't work on the Manhattan project nor were they students of Dr. Mengele.

As someone who fully supported the development and deployment of nuclear weapons and as someone who thinks scientific research, including research into military technology, I don't really think we I have anything to defend. A nuclear bomb does not kill people by itself, it does not tell you to kill people, it does not even encourage you to kill people (if anything, it discourages it because of the ramifications)...it's nothing more than a glorified version of a club, it accomplishes the exact same thing, only on a larger scale. And Dr. Mengele's research was rather uninfluential, his frostbite research is the only thing that has shown any use and promise. And his research is suspect not because of the gruesome methods he used but because of failure to use proper control groups, lack of proper statistical analysis, and the poor quality of his research notes...these are of more concern to science than his methods. Science is amoral, it makes no judgments as to whether something is right or wrong, just whether or not it is objectively verifiable. His methods actually hurt his science due to the reservations his peers had at reproducing his results.

Quote
But all these people used science and technology, right? This, of course, is the same "logic" by which people like you condemn Christianity.

Though the abuses of those who have used religion to their ends is manifest, there are greater concerns with religion. It's one thing to claim to do something in the name of a religion, it's another thing for him to be officially venerated or honored by the religion in the light of his actions (which can be said of several Emperor and Tzar-saints in Christianity, or, say, Luther and Calvin amongst the Protestants, or Mohammad amongst the Moslems, or Moses and Joshua amongst the Jews). With science, we are capable of making use of one's research without condoning their means or their person, we can say 'he was truly evil, but we won't simply dismiss the knowledge gained' because science is amoral. Religion, which takes a moral stance, does not have this luxury; you cannot say that the work of Mohammad was good and useful, but his actions were evil, so we condemn him as an evil man, but give our lives over to the doctrine he developed and espoused. It is this concept of morality attached to an institution, often an absolute morality, that is the weakness of religion and what causes religion to be a danger to society.
I will say nothing more on this other than you have yet again proven my point whilst explaining yourself away in a completely irrelevant fashion. *receives "moral relativism" card*
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« Reply #160 on: December 02, 2009, 05:49:40 PM »

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

Seriously? Even amongst the crowd I hang around, very sexually open, tolerant of any fetish you might have, perfectly accepting of gays...people will do some pretty outlandish things to get attention, but I don't think that's one of them.
Seriously?  Unless you are unemployed, you are spending much of your free time on OCnet with Christians.  What draws you to this site?
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« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2009, 05:50:58 PM »

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice. In the former Soviet Union, homosexual relationships between men were a crime punisheable by at the very least 8 years in hard labor camps (if there were no aggravating circumstances). Yet, I knew people there who were gay and who had gay lovers. Of course, they did not advertise it to every stranger, given the circumstances they were living at. But their close friends knew.

Of course they're going to say that. Roll Eyes Does what someone says make it true? Come on now! Smiley

A friend of mine from high school revealed to us our senior year that he was gay and was "born this way." Poppycock and rubbish, I say! Cheesy I fail to see how it could be anything other than a learned trait. Why is it that homosexuality was undeniably a psychological problem 60 years ago, but now it had to be removed from a list of psychological problems due to pressurings of homosexual activists?

Perhaps if I get enough people together who think they are X-Men, that can be deemed a legitimate gene (the x-gene) that people are born with. After all, I'm saying that I'm born with it and never had a choice in the matter. After all, when faced with a life sentence or the death penalty, murderers and pedophiles often say that they were born this way and we should accept them as they are and not try to get them treatment.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2009, 06:00:55 PM »

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

Seriously? Even amongst the crowd I hang around, very sexually open, tolerant of any fetish you might have, perfectly accepting of gays...people will do some pretty outlandish things to get attention, but I don't think that's one of them.
Seriously?  Unless you are unemployed, you are spending much of your free time on OCnet with Christians.  What draws you to this site?

I joined when at an Orthodox Seminary, believe it or not, there are actually a few people around here I like, so I've kinda stuck around. Wink Oh, and I'm at work right now. Grin
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« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2009, 06:05:18 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.
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« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2009, 06:54:17 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?
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« Reply #165 on: December 02, 2009, 07:03:46 PM »

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice. In the former Soviet Union, homosexual relationships between men were a crime punisheable by at the very least 8 years in hard labor camps (if there were no aggravating circumstances). Yet, I knew people there who were gay and who had gay lovers. Of course, they did not advertise it to every stranger, given the circumstances they were living at. But their close friends knew.

Of course they're going to say that. Roll Eyes Does what someone says make it true? Come on now! Smiley

A friend of mine from high school revealed to us our senior year that he was gay and was "born this way." Poppycock and rubbish, I say! Cheesy I fail to see how it could be anything other than a learned trait. Why is it that homosexuality was undeniably a psychological problem 60 years ago, but now it had to be removed from a list of psychological problems due to pressurings of homosexual activists?

Perhaps if I get enough people together who think they are X-Men, that can be deemed a legitimate gene (the x-gene) that people are born with. After all, I'm saying that I'm born with it and never had a choice in the matter. After all, when faced with a life sentence or the death penalty, murderers and pedophiles often say that they were born this way and we should accept them as they are and not try to get them treatment.

In Christ,
Andrew

I am kind of the opposite because I fail to see how "that" CAN be a "learned trait." How and where in the world could my friend A. "learn" to love a man, growing up in the former USSR, where you would go to jail for at least 8 years if you were caught having sex with a man? And mind you, there was ZERO of any "homosexual culture" in Kiev of the 1970-s - 1980-s - we never heard anything about gays, they were a deep dark underground, we could not see them in movies, hear about them on TV or radio, read about them in newspapers... Personally, I grew up "knowing" that homosexuals are extremely rare, that there is perhaps one homosexual out of a few million people, and that homosexuals are some sort of monsters, profoundly ill. When A., being an incredibly handsome and masculine youth, never dated girls, I thought, well, he is perhaps too picky, just still looking for the one he would really love. I was caught by a complete surprise when I learned that A. was in love with a man, and that there are several other young men, who are his friends, who are couples between themselves, and also two very attractive girls who were a couple. Again, that was in the early 1980's for goodness' sake... You can't probably imagine how very duifferent our entire life was back there and then, and yet...

And as far as murderers and pedophiles go - their actions most definitely harm other people. Nothing remotedly similar in the case of consensual homosexual adult relationships.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 07:04:34 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #166 on: December 02, 2009, 07:09:04 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?

And if homosexual partnering - and long term, life-time partnering at that - is part of the natural world, as some research suggests, what then?
I know that wiki isn't the best resource, but there are some interesting references on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
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« Reply #167 on: December 02, 2009, 07:16:58 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?
lust, boredom, impulsiveness, liberal indoctrination, recruitment, rebellion, peer pressure, and etc........

Why have 4 million Americans tried heroin?
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« Reply #168 on: December 02, 2009, 07:28:25 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?

And if homosexual partnering - and long term, life-time partnering at that - is part of the natural world, as some research suggests, what then?
I know that wiki isn't the best resource, but there are some interesting references on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
See reply #129 and the article below about "homosexual partnering".
http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf

“The study found that gay male couples were 1.5 times as likely (or 50 percent more likely) to divorce as married opposite-sex
couples, while lesbian couples were 2.67 times as likely (167 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples
over a similar period of time.2 Even after controlling for demographic characteristics associated with increased risk of divorce,
male same-sex couples were 1.35 times as likely (35 percent more likely) to divorce, and lesbian couples were three times as
likely (200 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples.”
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 07:30:02 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #169 on: December 02, 2009, 07:39:23 PM »

liberal indoctrination
So I'm guessing conservative indoctrination is okay. Roll Eyes Really, moronic statements like this just give the world further evidence against us.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 07:40:50 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #170 on: December 02, 2009, 07:44:56 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?

And if homosexual partnering - and long term, life-time partnering at that - is part of the natural world, as some research suggests, what then?
I know that wiki isn't the best resource, but there are some interesting references on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
See reply #129 and the article below about "homosexual partnering".
http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf

“The study found that gay male couples were 1.5 times as likely (or 50 percent more likely) to divorce as married opposite-sex
couples, while lesbian couples were 2.67 times as likely (167 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples
over a similar period of time.2 Even after controlling for demographic characteristics associated with increased risk of divorce,
male same-sex couples were 1.35 times as likely (35 percent more likely) to divorce, and lesbian couples were three times as
likely (200 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples.”

Yes, but bringing up statistics regarding fidelity doesn't answer my question regarding the implication of natural homosexual behaviour in non-human animals. The appalling rate of divorce and partner changing of heterosexual couples isn't an argument against heterosexual sex. Statistics don't take into account the reasons behind the breakups. However, long-term, life-long homosexual partnering happens.
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« Reply #171 on: December 02, 2009, 07:51:29 PM »

lust,

Ok, if you have lust, that's not a conscience decision, that's a natural biological reaction.

Quote
boredom, impulsiveness, liberal indoctrination, recruitment, rebellion, peer pressure, and etc........

Why have 4 million Americans tried heroin?

Those are all good reason to try heroine, not good reasons to have homosexual sex. If you friends says, 'I scored some black tar, want to get high', then it would seem quite reasonable to say, 'sure, hook me up'. But if the same (guy) friend say, 'hey, want to go have sex'...couldn't quite see myself saying, 'sure, hook me up'.

Isn't this intuitively obvious? Does it really need to be explained?
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« Reply #172 on: December 02, 2009, 08:04:31 PM »

I'm not picking proverbial a dog in this fight, but...

Heorhij, don't you think that there might be certain "posers" around? Maybe people of a younger age would engage homosexuality (even not for a lifetime) just to draw some attention or provoke.

I don't know. All gays whom I know told me that they were born this way and never had any choice.

In psychology we acknowledge that self-report is shaky at best.  I'm neither doubting nor contradicting the substance of their statements, just pointing out that it's not scientific data and, from a scientific/rational standpoint, not reliable.

Agreed. But then, if they are not telling the truth, WHY would they choose this life? What's so attractive about it when the vast majority of people does not approve it? Moreover, in some countries it's a criminal offense to have a homosexual sex. Why would ANYONE choose that?

And if homosexual partnering - and long term, life-time partnering at that - is part of the natural world, as some research suggests, what then?
I know that wiki isn't the best resource, but there are some interesting references on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
See reply #129 and the article below about "homosexual partnering".
http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf

“The study found that gay male couples were 1.5 times as likely (or 50 percent more likely) to divorce as married opposite-sex
couples, while lesbian couples were 2.67 times as likely (167 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples
over a similar period of time.2 Even after controlling for demographic characteristics associated with increased risk of divorce,
male same-sex couples were 1.35 times as likely (35 percent more likely) to divorce, and lesbian couples were three times as
likely (200 percent more likely) to divorce as opposite-sex married couples.”

Yes, but bringing up statistics regarding fidelity doesn't answer my question regarding the implication of natural homosexual behaviour in non-human animals. The appalling rate of divorce and partner changing of heterosexual couples isn't an argument against heterosexual sex. Statistics don't take into account the reasons behind the breakups. However, long-term, life-long homosexual partnering happens.
See reply #129 on this thread.
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« Reply #173 on: December 02, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »

lust,

Ok, if you have lust, that's not a conscience decision, that's a natural biological reaction.

Quote
boredom, impulsiveness, liberal indoctrination, recruitment, rebellion, peer pressure, and etc........

Why have 4 million Americans tried heroin?

Those are all good reason to try heroine, not good reasons to have homosexual sex. If you friends says, 'I scored some black tar, want to get high', then it would seem quite reasonable to say, 'sure, hook me up'. But if the same (guy) friend say, 'hey, want to go have sex'...couldn't quite see myself saying, 'sure, hook me up'.

Isn't this intuitively obvious? Does it really need to be explained?
No.  (Having) Sex is one of the primary forces that drives all thoughts, emotions and behavior. (Freud)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 08:24:50 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #174 on: December 02, 2009, 08:30:29 PM »

lust,

Ok, if you have lust, that's not a conscience decision, that's a natural biological reaction.

Quote
boredom, impulsiveness, liberal indoctrination, recruitment, rebellion, peer pressure, and etc........

Why have 4 million Americans tried heroin?

Those are all good reason to try heroine, not good reasons to have homosexual sex. If you friends says, 'I scored some black tar, want to get high', then it would seem quite reasonable to say, 'sure, hook me up'. But if the same (guy) friend say, 'hey, want to go have sex'...couldn't quite see myself saying, 'sure, hook me up'.

Isn't this intuitively obvious? Does it really need to be explained?
No.  (Having) Sex is one of the primary forces that drives all thoughts, emotions and behavior. (Freud)
Hmm. Sex drive is natural biology. Are you saying that homosexuals have a natural biological impulse to have sex with members of the same gender?
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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
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« Reply #175 on: December 02, 2009, 08:43:48 PM »

lust,

Ok, if you have lust, that's not a conscience decision, that's a natural biological reaction.

Quote
boredom, impulsiveness, liberal indoctrination, recruitment, rebellion, peer pressure, and etc........

Why have 4 million Americans tried heroin?

Those are all good reason to try heroine, not good reasons to have homosexual sex. If you friends says, 'I scored some black tar, want to get high', then it would seem quite reasonable to say, 'sure, hook me up'. But if the same (guy) friend say, 'hey, want to go have sex'...couldn't quite see myself saying, 'sure, hook me up'.

Isn't this intuitively obvious? Does it really need to be explained?
No.  (Having) Sex is one of the primary forces that drives all thoughts, emotions and behavior. (Freud)
Hmm. Sex drive is natural biology. Are you saying that homosexuals have a natural biological impulse to have sex with members of the same gender?
Nice try...no cigar.  Reread all my posts especially the posted research results. 
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« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2009, 09:30:21 PM »

Does anyone know what the current view is about homosexual behaviour in non-human animals? They aren't making lifestyle choices, I would assume.  Undecided
From homosexual researcher Simon LeVay:

Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.

Simon LeVay, Queer Science: The Use and Abuse of Research into Homosexuality (Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press, 1996). Bruce Bagemihl, Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999). pg. 207.
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If animals are homosexual because homosexuality is biological/natural,  then  coprophagy (poop eating) must also be completely natural. Since humans are animals, some might want to implement coprophagy into their “recycling plan”.
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/news/2005/feb/feb0514.htm
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One can not read human motivations and sentiments into all animals’ sexual behavior.  The sexual behavior of animals is not a benchmark to determine that same-sex behavior in humans is natural/biological.  Animal and human cognition are not comparable.  Animals lack the ability to express all their feelings.   Consequently, they may demonstrate their feelings ambiguously.  

Animals will exhibit same-sex behavior with different motivations.  Male and female dogs exhibit same-sex behavior to show dominance in the social hierarchy.

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2002/6/02.06.01.x.html

Monkeys show same-sex behavior when fearful or excited about food.
 www.songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html.
Giraffes exhibit same-sex behavior with dominance, competition or greetings.  Many animals use same-sex  behavior as a social phenomenon to solve conflict.  Is it natural/biological for humans to solve conflict with same-sex behavior?  (Beware Afghans!  We are sending 30,000 additional troops. )  Many creatures often have same-sex with other species.  Does this make homosexual bestiality natural/biological for humans?
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

Animal behavior is not a benchmark to decide what is “natural”/biological for humans.  Humans have a "benchmark" and it is found in the Holy Bible.

Then the thrust of your argument is, if I understand you correctly, that homosexual behaviour in humans is not the result of any kind of natural partnering urge, but a decision made by humans; a lifestyle choice - whereas in non-human animals it is a natural occurrence?
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2009, 10:35:24 PM »

Here is my argument:  There is not conclusive proof that there is a biological basis for homosexuality in humans.   

Another argument:  Romans 1:16-32

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2009, 10:41:19 PM »

Here is my argument:  There is not conclusive proof that there is a biological basis for homosexuality in humans. 

And yet there is a biological basis for homosexuality in non-human animals?

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2009, 10:59:04 PM »

Read post #129 again.  Animal behaviors that appear to be sexual may be shows of dominance, greetings, and ways to end conflict.   

It is very kind of you to worry about the real furries' behaviors, but animals don't have souls. Wink
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