Author Topic: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises  (Read 5071 times)

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2013, 08:45:21 AM »
I thought that yoga was just Lobsterback calisthenics, copied by the Hindus, spiritualized by the Lennonist Hippies, and commercialized by the yuppies?
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2013, 08:47:04 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."
Quote
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2013, 08:49:38 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."

Well, in Romania, where, for better or for worse, we are Orthodox, there are various currents that attempt to mix eastern religions with Orthodoxy, to say that they are really the same thing. So, you can better understand why an elder might sound a bit scared.

Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2013, 08:57:07 AM »
Can't they just do pilates?
If a number of practitioners of pilates started applying weird beliefs to their pilates practice, would pilates be better than yoga because it's origins would be less pagan or would it be equal because of the poor beliefs attached to the exercise?

There has been mention of prostrations (also not the only thing in yoga, and not sure I've seen a lot of that though I am of limit knowledge of yoga), mention of origins, and a mention of religious yoga. Are these all the problems with the exercise moves themselves? If not, what makes having one leg a couple feet behind the other (but not in a straight line for balance) with my legs bent and my arms up and holding that pose for a moment so wrong?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 08:57:30 AM by Anastasia1 »
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 08:58:35 AM »
Ignorance is a world wide phenomena, odd that some think it only exists among Westerners. I found ignorance of one sort or another in every country I visited, including India. There I found novel understandings of Christianity and UK weather patterns among Hindus, Sikhs and Moslems. And I learnt new things too. Still too much to learn and too little time to do it in.  8)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2013, 08:58:43 AM »
Besides, pilates are named after the guy that killed Christ.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2013, 09:46:10 AM »
At last, a Christian response to the subject of Yoga.

Equally applicable to aerobics, sports, modern medicine, etc.

Correct!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2013, 09:46:45 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."

Again, you are right.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2013, 09:50:28 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."

Well, in Romania, where, for better or for worse, we are Orthodox, there are various currents that attempt to mix eastern religions with Orthodoxy, to say that they are really the same thing. So, you can better understand why an elder might sound a bit scared.

Sure, but then the Elder's is a personal opinion, based on at least some misunderstanding that may not be his fault at all, meant to address a local issue and resolve it in favour of Orthodoxy.  It's not a Spirit-bearing, illumined, dogmatic pronouncement on yoga.

Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2013, 09:56:14 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."

Well, in Romania, where, for better or for worse, we are Orthodox, there are various currents that attempt to mix eastern religions with Orthodoxy, to say that they are really the same thing. So, you can better understand why an elder might sound a bit scared.

Sure, but then the Elder's is a personal opinion, based on at least some misunderstanding that may not be his fault at all, meant to address a local issue and resolve it in favour of Orthodoxy.  It's not a Spirit-bearing, illumined, dogmatic pronouncement on yoga.
I grow rather fond of your posts on days like this, Mor.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:56:31 AM by Anastasia1 »
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)

Offline Nathanael

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2013, 09:59:40 AM »
Is yoga just gymnastic ?...An opinion of someone who had done it for about seven years as a hindu...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfSF2ftcpfw
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:12:20 AM by Nathanael »
Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline sheenj

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2013, 10:01:55 AM »
Sure, but then the Elder's is a personal opinion, based on at least some misunderstanding that may not be his fault at all, meant to address a local issue and resolve it in favour of Orthodoxy.  It's not a Spirit-bearing, illumined, dogmatic pronouncement on yoga.

Just curious, do you know if any Indian clergy have spoken either for or against Yoga? I assume they would be more familiar with the subject and have a more informed view.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:04:04 AM by sheenj »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2013, 10:12:30 AM »
. But, we have to understand that when we begin thinking that The Church accepts yoga as part of its salvific doctrine

Who says such a thing?

It seems to me this is yet another case of ignorant Westerners making unsupportable generalizations about "Hinduism" and "Eastern religions."

Well, in Romania, where, for better or for worse, we are Orthodox, there are various currents that attempt to mix eastern religions with Orthodoxy, to say that they are really the same thing. So, you can better understand why an elder might sound a bit scared.

Sure, but then the Elder's is a personal opinion, based on at least some misunderstanding that may not be his fault at all, meant to address a local issue and resolve it in favour of Orthodoxy.  It's not a Spirit-bearing, illumined, dogmatic pronouncement on yoga.

His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation. Of course, few believe that yoga will lead to salvation from sin and union with God , yet for those few you have to call it a heresy.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:13:03 AM by IoanC »

Offline sheenj

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2013, 10:21:57 AM »
His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation.

Oh? I didn't realize a single monk now had the power to infallibly declare Dogma. Does he also have universal immediate ordinary jurisdiction as well?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:24:27 AM by sheenj »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »
His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation.

Oh? I didn't realize a single monk now had the power to infallibly declare Dogma. Does he also have universal immediate ordinary jurisdiction as well?

He did not declare anything. The dogma of The Church can be found in its teachings and canons, etc.. Yoga is not there, so for that reason anybody can "declare" it a heresy.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2013, 10:32:26 AM »
He did not declare anything.

That's not what you said.
His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation.

The dogma of The Church can be found in its teachings and canons, etc.. Yoga is not there, so for that reason anybody can "declare" it a heresy.

Is the internet found in Church teachings and canons? How about basketball? Or cars? Are they heresies as well?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2013, 10:39:31 AM »
He did not declare anything.

That's not what you said.
His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation.

The dogma of The Church can be found in its teachings and canons, etc.. Yoga is not there, so for that reason anybody can "declare" it a heresy.

Is the internet found in Church teachings and canons? How about basketball? Or cars? Are they heresies as well?

They are heresies if you think that in themselves they can save your soul. Otherwise, they can be tools for whatever sharing of information or developing of muscles, etc.. Do we need them for salvation? No. Only the irreducible truth of salvation can be dogma. Whoever claims that anything beyond it is equally salvific and should be dogma would be a heretic.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 10:39:56 AM by IoanC »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2013, 10:45:13 AM »
Besides, pilates are named after the guy that killed Christ.

LOL!

Offline sheenj

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »
They are heresies if you think that in themselves they can save your soul. Otherwise, they can be tools for whatever sharing of information or developing of muscles, etc.. Do we need them for salvation? No. Only the irreducible truth of salvation can be dogma. Whoever claims that anything beyond it is equally salvific and should be dogma would be a heretic.

Yes, but so far you have been pretty much the only person in this thread who's brought this up. For all intents and purposes, you're arguing against a strawman here.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:05:50 AM by sheenj »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2013, 11:12:42 AM »
They are heresies if you think that in themselves they can save your soul. Otherwise, they can be tools for whatever sharing of information or developing of muscles, etc.. Do we need them for salvation? No. Only the irreducible truth of salvation can be dogma. Whoever claims that anything beyond it is equally salvific and should be dogma would be a heretic.

Yes, but so far you have been pretty much the only person in this thread who's brought this up. For all intents and purposes, you're arguing against a strawman here.

Well, don't know the logical value of being the only one who brought this up; could have been more, could have been none; so? I am not arguing for nor against anything. That elder basically said that we especially need Christ's teaching for salvation and that we definitely don't need yoga for salvation. If anybody thinks that we can do without Christ's teaching and/or that we can use yoga for salvation -- to each their own.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:13:01 AM by IoanC »


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2013, 01:39:29 PM »
I grow rather fond of your posts on days like this, Mor.

We all need a pick-me-up from time to time.  :)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2013, 01:50:06 PM »
Just curious, do you know if any Indian clergy have spoken either for or against Yoga? I assume they would be more familiar with the subject and have a more informed view.

Informally, the consensus seems to be that yoga is fine as physical exercise, and that's all most Christian practitioners are interested in.  Similarly, they view ayurvedic medicine as basically an acceptable alternative or addition to Western medicine (e.g., herbal remedies, massage therapy, exercise routines, diet).  When things start going in a "spiritual" direction, that's when it becomes an issue. 

There are some clerics (Orthodox and non-Orthodox) who, IMO, go too far.  In trying to preach the gospel in an Indian context, they overreach, and end up borderline syncretists.  Because of them, I personally prefer a hardline, hardcore Orthodox-only approach...the truth of the matter is in the middle, but someone needs to pull back in order not to fall off the cliff.     

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2013, 01:55:29 PM »
His dogmatic pronouncement was that yoga is a heresy, in that it is not the teaching that God left for salvation. Of course, few believe that yoga will lead to salvation from sin and union with God , yet for those few you have to call it a heresy.

Abusus non tollit usum.  And please don't throw around terms like "heresy" (and, if I may add another, "spiritual") so carelessly, especially when you're not using them properly.   


Offline Iconodule

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2013, 03:58:28 PM »
The dogma of The Church can be found in its teachings and canons, etc.. Yoga is not there, so for that reason anybody can "declare" it a heresy.

I hereby declare peanut butter a heresy.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2013, 04:08:40 PM »
The dogma of The Church can be found in its teachings and canons, etc.. Yoga is not there, so for that reason anybody can "declare" it a heresy.

I hereby declare peanut butter a heresy.

The one American thing that I could apostatize for!  :laugh:

Offline Anastasia1

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2013, 04:35:14 PM »
Is yoga religious? In it's original form, yes it is religious. In the simple exercises, no.

Arnold, M. (N.D.) The Trouble with Yoga: A Catholic May Practice the Physical Postures, but with Caveats. Catholic Answers Magazine. Retrieved October 31, 2013 from http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-trouble-with-yoga

Quote
What is yoga?

Classical yoga is a holistic (i.e., “whole body”) discipline originating in Hinduism that seeks enlightenment through a series of exercises that unite the body, mind, and spirit. Enlightenment is the end, and union (yoga, “yoke”) is the means...

Look at the classic Christian prayer posture of kneeling: Merely lowering the body to the knees does not engage the person in the worship of God. Depending upon his intent and actions, someone on his knees could be weeding his garden, or proposing marriage, or searching for lost change under the sofa. The posture must be combined with intent and other prayerful action (e.g., folding hands, speaking words) for kneeling to become an act of worship.

Bodily postures or rhythms of breathing may have various physiological or psychological benefits, provided they are done under the supervision of a doctor or other qualified expert. The disciplines common to Hatha yoga have been used by doctors and therapists for the treatment of various medical ailments, including heart disease, asthma, back pain, and even post-traumatic stress disorder...

The use of yoga as a spiritual path is highly problematic. There are three major areas in which the spiritual practice of yoga is not in line with Catholic spirituality.

Monism...

Gnosticism...

Technique

The Church teaches that “Christian prayer . . . flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism which is incapable of a free openness to the transcendental God” (Aspects, 3)...

Bottom line

Should you take up yoga? As a spiritual path, yoga is incompatible with Christian spirituality. But if you can separate the spiritual/meditational aspects of yoga from the body postures and breathing techniques common to yoga, then you might be able to use those postures and techniques beneficially for health. If you’re at all unsure of your ability to do so, you may well be advised to find another form of exercise.
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)

Offline Salpy

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2014, 12:00:29 AM »
I am resurrecting this thread because I have a related question:

What is the "ommm" sound that seems to be associated with yoga?  Is it a prayer, or is it something people just use to relax?  I hear it on TV, etc., but I never understood what it meant. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is yoga religious? An Indian court mulls mandatory school exercises
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2014, 12:17:05 AM »
I am resurrecting this thread because I have a related question:

What is the "ommm" sound that seems to be associated with yoga?  Is it a prayer, or is it something people just use to relax?  I hear it on TV, etc., but I never understood what it meant. 

On "om":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Om