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Author Topic: Feedback on Protestant Gospel Presentation  (Read 549 times) Average Rating: 0
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ghoti143
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« on: October 28, 2013, 09:02:18 PM »

Greetings.

I came across a gospel presentation a few months back which I, as an evangelical protestant, thought was really well done.  It's about 5 minutes long.

http://vimeo.com/48734715

I appreciated how the presentation is explicitly trinitarian and focuses on our union with Christ as the new Adam.  I am curious: what are the pros/cons about this presentation from an Orthodox perspective?
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 09:33:21 PM »

I think the Resurrection is lacking. The Resurrection is the realization that death could not overcome the Author of Life, and that He has destroyed death. It's less a matter of Christ's 'substitution' on the cross and more about His gift of immortality. The Orthodox Church does not accept the idea that Christ was a substitute for sin.

But that's all I have to comment on. It's quite a nice presentation.
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"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
Nephi
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 10:19:21 PM »

1: "The race of Adam stands under God's condemnation. God has pronounced an eternal "no" to that way of life."

This sounds like inherited guilt, or at least implies that Adam's condition is a punishment from God (as compared to naturally following from Adam's action; cf. St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word)

2: The image of marriage, with Christ "covering over her shame."

Probably intended to mean imputed righteousness/justification.

3: "We become adopted into the family right now."

Salvation/deification to us is a process. We're not fully immersed into the Trinitarian life in this life, much less right now.

4: "God will judge the world, forever confirming his "no" to Adam, his "yes" to Christ."

Again, see #1 and #2.

It does a decent job of explaining in simple terms how joining Trinitarian life is our telos. Otherwise, it's pretty irreconcilably Protestant at parts and doesn't stress the incarnation enough IMO.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:21:32 PM by Nephi » Logged
NicholasMyra
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When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 10:33:31 PM »

what are the pros/cons about this presentation from an Orthodox perspective?
Pros: Better than that other one that said the soul was "the real you".
Mentioned human participation in Christ's kingship/sonship
Descent into Hades
Divine union
Not terrible trinitarianism compared to what we're used to seeing
No weird anthropology
Some decent atonement stuff
Mentioned the Resurrection
Mentioned Second Coming
Talked a bit about the Incarnation
Some Book of Hebrews stuff.
Much better than that other one. Really, if these are the same guys that we saw a couple years ago, they really stepped it up.

Cons: A little bit of quasi-modalism, but that's to be expected.
Not enough emphasis on reality of death, but there was a little.
A little bit of penal substitution
No focus on the Ascension, needs to expand on the Resurrection
That awful classist prince/pauper thing.
Ill-fitting music and hokey graphics.
"Jesus spectacles" covering over of sin instead of removing it.
No focus on the history of salvation vis a vis the Jews, Israel, etc.
Needs focus on the fact that Jesus was the one by whom/through whom/toward whom/with whom/for whom the world was created.
The "call to action" at the end sounds like it's setting someone up for a "conversion experience". What it lacks here is sacramentality, and the call to die with Christ and live a life of taking up one's Cross.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:59:37 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 10:38:18 PM »

1: "The race of Adam stands under God's condemnation. God has pronounced an eternal "no" to that way of life."
I actually thought this was a bit clever and I liked it.

Ghoti, are you affiliated with the producers of the video or their organization?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:54:30 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 11:18:39 PM »

No focus on the history of salvation vis a vis the Jews, Israel, etc.

Good point, I didn't catch that.

1: "The race of Adam stands under God's condemnation. God has pronounced an eternal "no" to that way of life."
I actually thought this was a bit clever and I liked it.

Did you view it through an Orthodox lens or just like the wording?
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 12:25:51 AM »


Did you view it through an Orthodox lens or just like the wording?

There is something to be said for God's active judgment of the fallen cosmos as terminally corrupt and rebellious. This is a good way of putting it in a short presentation.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
ghoti143
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 01:12:23 PM »

Thanks for the feedback.  It is helpful to me as I am attempting to learn to see things through an Orthodox lens.  I have no affiliation with the producers of the video.  I do know, however, that it comes from an English evangelist who blogs here: http://christthetruth.net/

As far as issues surrounding the atonement, this article has been helpful for me in understanding why the Orthodox have historically avoided the Western ideas of inherited guilt: www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm

It is amazing to me how little the Orthodox focus on justification; it is one of the core doctrines in the Western church.  I'm beginning to understand the Orthodox position -- "Christ is risen!  We have been freed from our bondage to sin and death!  Come, let's follow Him!"  As I read the book of Acts, that seems to be the core of the message which the Apostles proclaimed.  There's no in-depth explanation of how this forgiveness and freedom occurs, it just does.  Is this a fair assessment?

Along these lines, are there any writings from the Eastern Tradition which address Christ as the suffering servant (Isaiah 53) or Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7)?  These motifs feature prominently in the Western idea of sacrificial atonement.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:13:32 PM by ghoti143 » Logged
Nektarios_In_E.S.
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 01:43:33 PM »

Hello ghoti143,

With sincere good-faith, I would highly encourage you to listen to the following podcasts from Ancient Faith Radio, explaining Salvation, Redemption, Justification, etc. and the "role" of Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ in all the former.

This will be a wonderful way for you to understand and to sort-of, save you a bit of reading -of course, that could follow, if you're further interested.  These talks were done by a former, Baptist/Evangelical, Dr. Clark Carlton.  This is not just your average "convert" from protestantism to the Holy Orthodox Church but someone who went to Baptist Seminary and is actually a professor at Tennessee Tech teaching philosophy and logic.

I think it will be extremely beneficial for you to not only understand the Orthodox perspective on such topics but most important, that it is explained by someone who's "been there"; who comes from a similar Christian background as yours.

http://www.ancientfaith.com/search/results/eeb9575d6ff55537f5e525194394fad4/

The recommended podcasts to download:

1. What Christ Accomplished For Us
* Announcements
09/22/13

2. What Christ Accomplished For Us
Ancient Faith Today
09/22/13

3. Clark Carlton on the Essence and Energies of God
* Specials Programs
09/12/13   

4. The Essence and Energies of God
* Specials
09/12/13

Also, some very wonderful talks that Father (Monk) Damascene did where he also touches on all of these topics with the starting point of the creation of Man, the original intention of God for mankind and the creation: to be united to Himself (which is "salvation").

http://www.ancientfaith.com/search/results/a5798b5a8240ad47f7ce1829e024c875/

podcasts to download:

1. Christ the Eternal Tao - Part 2
* Specials Programs
11/13/09

2. Christ the Eternal Tao - Part 3
* Specials Programs
11/13/09

-I know it says: "Christ the Eternal Tao" but that is only because of part 1.  Part 2 deals more with God, man, salvation, etc. Plus it has question/answer session at the end.

If you like these -or if you're not able to download them and want to read- and feel more hunger, some great books to read are the following:

1. Nikolas Kabasilas - Life In Christ
http://books.google.com.sv/books/about/The_Life_in_Christ.html?id=iE45LzrfZuwC&redir_esc=y

2. Kallistos Ware - The Orthodox Way
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-orthodox-way-kallistos-t-ware/1000524417

here you may find a pdf version of the book (check if it is safe to download):
http://kickass.to/kallistos-ware-the-orthodox-way-pdf-t7529215.html

3. St.Innocent of Alaska - The Way Into the Kingdom of Heaven -- I found it FREE!!! on here:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

Wish you much success and proper understanding in your search!!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:45:35 PM by Nektarios_In_E.S. » Logged
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 06:23:29 PM »

Along these lines, are there any writings from the Eastern Tradition which address Christ as the suffering servant (Isaiah 53) or Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7)?

The readings, hymns, psalms and holy acts of Holy Week and Pascha/Easter would be a good place to start. Here are a couple:

http://full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2012/04/canon-of-pascha-by-st-john-of-damascus.html

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/do-not-lament-me-o-mother/ (see Isaiah 59:15-19)

Also the Passover aspect is a part of every divine liturgy.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 06:25:48 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 07:37:00 PM »

If you're protestant and want to understand some things from the Orthodox perspective, you can hardly do better than to hear from former protestants who are now Orthodox priests.

I'd like to add to the list of suggested podcasts.  Father James Early was once a Baptist missionary.  This whole series is a Bible Study that he conducts at his parish.  On the bottom of the page on the left, set the page to display all of the podcasts, and then choose the one that pertains to any section you'd like clarification on.  If you're a protestant who wants to see the Orthodox perspective on certain theological points, then you can hardly do better than to listen to an Orthodox Bible Study conducted by a priest who used to be Baptist.  One of the first ones I'd suggest listening to are Not By Faith Alone and Work Out Your Salvation, two podcasts where he draws numerous comparisons between protestant teachings vs Orthodox interpretation.

Another is Father Joseph Huneycutt, who--per his book One Flew Over the Onion Dome--was raised Southern Baptist who became Episcopalian.  I suggest listening to some of his podcasts on Ancient Faith, called Orthodixie.
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Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith.  Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.
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