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Author Topic: HG Bishop David to be consecrated Diocesan Bishop  (Read 1036 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« on: October 28, 2013, 12:16:15 AM »

His Grace Bishop David has been chosen to be the diocesan bishop of the newly formed Coptic diocese of the states of New York and New England (VT, NH, MA, RI, and CT):

http://www.copticworld.org/articles/2656/

The consecration will be on Nov. 15-16.

HH Pope Tawadros has appointed Hegumen Fr. Seraphim Al Souriany to be the Papal representative for the North American Archdiocese, whose headquarters is in Cedar Grove, NJ.

https://www.copticworld.org/articles/2767/

Fr. Seraphim was one of the five papal candidates that were up for election for the Coptic papacy.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:18:34 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 11:53:01 AM »

What does the Papal representative do, besides cleaning the Papal residence and drive the Pope when His Supreme Holiness comes to the US? This is what Bishop David was doing during the past 15 years. This was suitable for Bishop David, considering he is good for nothing else, except playing music in arabic nightclubs like he used to do in Toronto.

The seating of this bishop is a great dilemma for us here in Canada. This just means that his heretical brothers (the priest and the deacon) will just continue their heresies with massive support from the Synod and the great Pope Tawadros.

Lord have mercy!  

(Modified for proper clergy title.
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« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 10:16:22 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 12:05:03 PM »

What does the Papal representative do, besides cleaning the Papal residence and drive the Pope when His Supreme Holiness comes to the US? This is what Bishop David was doing during the past 15 years. This was suitable for Bishop David, considering he is good for nothing else, except playing music in arabic nightclubs like he used to do in Toronto.

The seating of this bishop is a great dilemma for us here in Canada. This just means that his heretical brothers (the priest and the deacon) will just continue their heresies with massive support from the Synod and the great Taw HH Tawadros II.

Listen, I'm not Coptic so I don't know what inspired this latest diatribe, but the men you insulted are still hierarchs and clergy of the Orthodox Church and they should be referred to with the honor due to their position.  Angry
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 01:00:08 PM »

This was suitable for Bishop David, considering he is good for nothing else, except playing music in arabic nightclubs like he used to do in Toronto.

I'm not sure why the character assassination.  If true, how does that make him any different than the great St. Abba Moses, who was a rapist, murderer, thief, and pagan?

There's much better way of constructive criticism of heirarchs, but this is a low blow
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:01:27 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 01:15:28 PM »

I'm not a "big fan" of HG Bishop David, neither am I "anti-"Bishop David either.  My experience with him has been cordial and pleasant at times, although at other times not so pleasant, as many who have read my posts might see.  But I will share one story that focuses on the positive aspect of his service.

I invited him to an undergraduate meeting to give a talk to the Orthodox Christian Club I established.  It was the first time our club would receive a bishop (that semester alone, we had two bishops coming to NYIT to give lectures, HG Bishop David and the present Greek Orthodox Metropolitan HE Metropolitan Savas, who I love very dearly.  The Associate Dean went to me, "Mina, what's with all the bishops this semester?  You're flooding our small university with theological celebrity status").

I forget what the talk was about.  I remember it had something to do with spirituality and being a successful college student.  And he gave the usual Q&A at the end for any open-ended questions about anything religious.  At the end, a couple of Muslims from the MSA wanted to engage in a discussion with HG Bishop David about contradictions in the Bible and how the Bible prophesied the coming of their prophet.  This was when HG Bishop David was on his way leaving our college.  But instead of leaving, he sat down with these Muslim students for more than an hour defending Christianity, the Bible, and more or less challenging their thinking a bit with some Arabic sources he was well-acquainted with.  I think it was 11:00 PM or 11:30 PM (sometime very late) when he finally was able to leave the SGA building after the Muslim students had nothing more to discuss.  At this point, I was greatly pleased, despite all else that may have displeased me, this left a great impression on me of a bishop of may go out of his way to discuss with anyone that may challenge our Christian beliefs with love and patience.  That quality is something that I think the diocese of NY/NE should be proud of having in their first ever bishop.

May God bless HG Bishop David on his new endeavor and lead the Coptic Church to grow in true Orthodoxy, as he continues to improve on his leadership.  But most importantly, may God bless his pastoral qualities as well.

Axios! Axios! Axios!

I'm also somewhat excited for Fr. Seraphim al Souriany's post.  He seems like a great humble and spiritual man, a man after all who could have been our Pope if the voting committee voted for him.  May God also guide him and bless him in helping the Archdiocese grow and lead it to more actual dioceses one day.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:16:53 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 01:57:05 PM »

Stavro's comment exemplifies the new "progressive" polemics of the Orthodox Church, whether Coptic, Oriental or Eastern. We now live in a wold where the laity believe they know more than the hierarchies.

Nearly all decision of the hierarchy is held to a laity "that was a stupid thing to do because I don't like it" reaction. Since when did God send us a shepherd or pastor based on popularity? As if the hierarchy need the laity's permission to execute God's salvation? Whom did God give authority on earth, the select disciples and their successors or the pseudo-intellectual, self-proclaimed progressive archons and pseudo-archons of this generation?

It is irrelevant if we are a fan of a particular bishop or the entire Holy Synod. It is irrelevant if a particular episcopal decision makes sense to me. Modern progressives just throw around accusations of heresies. The modern progressive is no different than any Protestant. Simply disagree with the episcopacy, insult them and accuse them of heresy. The only step left for the modern progressive is to abdicate from the Church and claim they were the original Church (which has already been advocated).

Since mighty Stavro is now God who can see the hearts of men and judge them as nothing more than papal janitors with nocturnal sinful proclivities, there is no way he could be wrong about HH Pope Tawadros, the Holy Synod, Bishop David or his own bishop Bishop Mina.

Bishop David has done more for the Coptic Church than anyone will ever know. Only God knows the extent of his service. And I for one am extremely thankful that God chose him to be my bishop. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 02:27:22 PM »

I'm not a "big fan" of HG Bishop David, neither am I "anti-"Bishop David either.  My experience with him has been cordial and pleasant at times, although at other times not so pleasant, as many who have read my posts might see.  But I will share one story that focuses on the positive aspect of his service.

I invited him to an undergraduate meeting to give a talk to the Orthodox Christian Club I established.  It was the first time our club would receive a bishop (that semester alone, we had two bishops coming to NYIT to give lectures, HG Bishop David and the present Greek Orthodox Metropolitan HE Metropolitan Savas, who I love very dearly.  The Associate Dean went to me, "Mina, what's with all the bishops this semester?  You're flooding our small university with theological celebrity status").

I forget what the talk was about.  I remember it had something to do with spirituality and being a successful college student.  And he gave the usual Q&A at the end for any open-ended questions about anything religious.  At the end, a couple of Muslims from the MSA wanted to engage in a discussion with HG Bishop David about contradictions in the Bible and how the Bible prophesied the coming of their prophet.  This was when HG Bishop David was on his way leaving our college.  But instead of leaving, he sat down with these Muslim students for more than an hour defending Christianity, the Bible, and more or less challenging their thinking a bit with some Arabic sources he was well-acquainted with.  I think it was 11:00 PM or 11:30 PM (sometime very late) when he finally was able to leave the SGA building after the Muslim students had nothing more to discuss.  At this point, I was greatly pleased, despite all else that may have displeased me, this left a great impression on me of a bishop of may go out of his way to discuss with anyone that may challenge our Christian beliefs with love and patience.  That quality is something that I think the diocese of NY/NE should be proud of having in their first ever bishop.

May God bless HG Bishop David on his new endeavor and lead the Coptic Church to grow in true Orthodoxy, as he continues to improve on his leadership.  But most importantly, may God bless his pastoral qualities as well.

Axios! Axios! Axios!

I'm also somewhat excited for Fr. Seraphim al Souriany's post.  He seems like a great humble and spiritual man, a man after all who could have been our Pope if the voting committee voted for him.  May God also guide him and bless him in helping the Archdiocese grow and lead it to more actual dioceses one day.

Wow! Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 04:08:19 PM »

Stavro's comment exemplifies the new "progressive" polemics of the Orthodox Church, whether Coptic, Oriental or Eastern. We now live in a wold where the laity believe they know more than the hierarchies.

Nearly all decision of the hierarchy is held to a laity "that was a stupid thing to do because I don't like it" reaction. Since when did God send us a shepherd or pastor based on popularity? As if the hierarchy need the laity's permission to execute God's salvation? Whom did God give authority on earth, the select disciples and their successors or the pseudo-intellectual, self-proclaimed progressive archons and pseudo-archons of this generation?

It is irrelevant if we are a fan of a particular bishop or the entire Holy Synod. It is irrelevant if a particular episcopal decision makes sense to me. Modern progressives just throw around accusations of heresies. The modern progressive is no different than any Protestant. Simply disagree with the episcopacy, insult them and accuse them of heresy. The only step left for the modern progressive is to abdicate from the Church and claim they were the original Church (which has already been advocated).

Since mighty Stavro is now God who can see the hearts of men and judge them as nothing more than papal janitors with nocturnal sinful proclivities, there is no way he could be wrong about HH Pope Tawadros, the Holy Synod, Bishop David or his own bishop Bishop Mina.

Bishop David has done more for the Coptic Church than anyone will ever know. Only God knows the extent of his service. And I for one am extremely thankful that God chose him to be my bishop. Lord have mercy.

I ingonred you on tasbeha.org because of your stupidity and impotence, and most of all, ignorance. If you are trying to get my attention at any cost and you follow me around on forums, it shows that your only satisfaction comes from being spanked by people superior to you in knowledge. Try something else. I will still ignore you.  
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:09:23 PM by Stavro » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 04:21:51 PM »

This was suitable for Bishop David, considering he is good for nothing else, except playing music in arabic nightclubs like he used to do in Toronto.

I'm not sure why the character assassination.  If true, how does that make him any different than the great St. Abba Moses, who was a rapist, murderer, thief, and pagan?

There's much better way of constructive criticism of heirarchs, but this is a low blow

I am saying he has not shown any abilities as a general bishop, whatever this rank means, to make him a diocesan bishop over a very important and rich area of the USA.

His past is relevant. The analogy with St. Moses does not hold. St. Moses, was selected to priesthood after decades of repentance and spiritual struggle. The Arabic nightclub “3ood” musician was playing in a nightclub a week before he went to the monastery. He has not shown any kind of spiritual promise during his service in Sunday School. His ideas and teachings were bizarre and weird, to say the least. 
I do not think he has shown any promise as a monk. He stayed in the Papal residence in the monastery for the few weeks he was in Egypt, before he transferred to England and spent the next few years between England and Canada. The he became bishop.
His story was repeated with many others. It raises serious questions about how bishops were selected during the past 40 years. This rank is now trivial and insignificant because invalid have been ordained to this rank.
Now with him being a diocesan bishop, forget about putting a limit to the heresies of his brothers. They are destroying the churches here. That’s all.
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" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 04:27:46 PM »

This was suitable for Bishop David, considering he is good for nothing else, except playing music in arabic nightclubs like he used to do in Toronto.

I'm not sure why the character assassination.  If true, how does that make him any different than the great St. Abba Moses, who was a rapist, murderer, thief, and pagan?

There's much better way of constructive criticism of heirarchs, but this is a low blow

I am saying he has not shown any abilities as a general bishop, whatever this rank means, to make him a diocesan bishop over a very important and rich area of the USA.

His past is relevant. The analogy with St. Moses does not hold. St. Moses, was selected to priesthood after decades of repentance and spiritual struggle. The Arabic nightclub “3ood” musician was playing in a nightclub a week before he went to the monastery. He has not shown any kind of spiritual promise during his service in Sunday School. His ideas and teachings were bizarre and weird, to say the least. 
I do not think he has shown any promise as a monk. He stayed in the Papal residence in the monastery for the few weeks he was in Egypt, before he transferred to England and spent the next few years between England and Canada. The he became bishop.
His story was repeated with many others. It raises serious questions about how bishops were selected during the past 40 years. This rank is now trivial and insignificant because invalid have been ordained to this rank.
Now with him being a diocesan bishop, forget about putting a limit to the heresies of his brothers. They are destroying the churches here. That’s all.


What makes you the judge of someone's personal spiritual life?  How would you like it if someone revealed something about your past that put judgment on your own spiritual understanding?

No, this is unacceptable Stavro.  We're much more mature than that.  We can have a better discussion on disagreements with heirarchs without resorting to low blows like this.
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2013, 04:41:38 PM »

I do not see the low blow. Can you list one thing that qualifies HG Bishop David to be a bishop to begin with? Just one accomplishment ... this is not too much to ask.

I can tell you that he has protected his brother, who he knows or should know is a heretic. He has participated and supported his kid brother in his Protestant service. He has forced St. Mark's Church in Toronto to pay his brother massive amount of money when he resigned, which is neither his territory or diocese.  

Quote
How would you like it if someone revealed something about your past that put judgment on your own spiritual understanding?

I have no problem with this at all. Whatever mistakes I did, I take responsibility for it.  

Can you say the same about yourself? Or Can HG Bishop David answer for his past or his present actions in promoting heresy through his brother?
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2013, 05:09:14 PM »

I do not see the low blow. Can you list one thing that qualifies Emad to be a bishop to begin with? Just one accomplishment ... this is not too much to ask.

I can tell you that he has protected his brother, who he knows or should know is a heretic. He has participated and supported his kid brother in his Protestant service. He has forced St. Mark's Church in Toronto to pay his brother massive amount of money when he resigned, which is neither his territory or diocese.  

Quote
How would you like it if someone revealed something about your past that put judgment on your own spiritual understanding?

I have no problem with this at all. Whatever mistakes I did, I take responsibility for it.  

Can you say the same about yourself? Or Can Emad answer for his past or his present actions in promoting heresy through his brother?

If you can't understand how your posts are inappropriate (not to mention rule breaking in this website) then there is no point in dragging this with you any further.  I am trying to tell you that you are allowed to disagree or to criticize without being so disagreeable.  But you only make your point worse when you attack people's personalities.
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2013, 05:46:42 PM »

I have mentioned many of his shortcomings that are directly tied to the responsibilities of the office he is appointed to.

Can you mention one single attribute that qualified him to be a bishop? 

But why bother ... just forget it.


 
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 06:27:12 PM »

I have mentioned many of his shortcomings that are directly tied to the responsibilities of the office he is appointed to.

Can you mention one single attribute that qualified him to be a bishop? 

But why bother ... just forget it.


 

Forgiveness, patience, understanding
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 07:18:54 PM »

I have no problem with this at all. Whatever mistakes I did, I take responsibility for it.  
Quote
Ad hominem attacks on other members of this forum, insulting clergy, throwing unproven accusations are all mistakes you are not taking responsibility for. Mina is trying to show in a loving manner how your posts are inappropriate. Take his advice and stop.

Quote
Can you say the same about yourself? Or Can Emad answer for his past or his present actions in promoting heresy through his brother?
Bishop David only has to answer to Just Judge about his actions, not you or anyone else. If you want to actually make a point about any specific action, back it up with real evidence and stop claiming everyone but yourself is heretic or promoting someone else's heresy.
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 08:19:58 PM »

I was going to make a point-by-point refutation of some of the ridiculous and hurtful ideas expressed in this thread, but I don't think that that would be fruitful, as I truly don't want to provide any more oxygen for this argument.

I will limit myself to saying that His Grace Bishop David has been a tireless and dedicated servant here in the Archdiocese of North America for the past decade and a half.  The responsibilities of the Patriarchal Exarch, especially during the period that has just ended, when the Archdiocese of North America encompassed more than 200 churches, were tremendous.  To suggest that the position was devoid of major responsibility or did not call for exhaustive labor is ridiculous and reflects a lack on knowledge of the day-to-day workings of the Archdiocese.  As Patriarchal Exarch, H.G. Anba David traveled constantly and worked tirelessly, with very little rest, while also tending to the pastoral needs of his flock, his weekly meeting with the people, et cetera.  I can say that I am part of the fruit of his labors and my family and I would not be in the Coptic Orthodox Church had he not labored with us for more than a year, answering all of our questions and catechizing us meticulously and lovingly, providing us with a firm foundation in Orthodoxy.  We are not the only ones who entered or remained in the Church because of His Grace either.  This is corroborated by the testimony of all of those His Grace has served and comforted over the past 15 years, people who actually have lived under his pastoral care and know what they are talking about.  Many of us even lobbied His Holiness the Pope to include NJ in the new diocese because we didn't want to be separated from our Father.

His Grace is more than able as a shepherd for the flock of Christ in whatever diocese.  He has overseen the growth and development of infrastructure in the Church in the Northeast USA and other areas, attended to the Eritrean Church in North America in their time of need (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynDSvDnclXs) cultivated relationships with other Oriental Orthodox Churches as an active member of SCOOCH, engaged in dialogues with those outside our Communion, pursued his education achieving two MAs in theological fields from Fordham and Holy Cross, and, through his personal efforts, has lovingly shepherded a number of converts into the Church, including my weakness and other members of my family.  His commitment to mission in North America is rooted in an Orthodox ethos.  I am the fruit of it.  I would likely not be such an opponent of Protestant influence in our Orthodox Church if I didn't learn at Sayedna's feet.  A sample of His teaching on this subject:

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/bishop-david-enthroned-bishop-diocese-north-america/

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/bishop-david-orthodox-faith/

As to stories concerning His Grace's life before his tonsure as a monk, I wasn't there, so I can't speak to them, but my experience with the man he became tells me either that such accusations against him are baseless or that the transformative power of God was at work in his life once he answered the call.  I don't know how anyone on these boards is qualified to speak to the quality of Sayedna's - or any monks - monastic life, not having taken such vows and died to the world themselves or lived with the Fathers in the monastery.  I can also say that if the worst thing Sayedna - or anyone - did as a young layman was to play music in a club, than this is far less wicked than anything my weak and miserable self did this morning or five minutes before I logged on this evening.

May God strengthen His Grace for his new burden.  Worthy!  Worthy!  Worthy!  indeed.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 10:13:34 PM »

Wow.  I go to work for one day and I come back and there are all these rules violations by one poster.   Shocked   I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times in the eight years I've been a moderator that I've had to give colored dots to someone.  I normally like to find other ways to handle things, but in this case I have to use the warning system.

Stavro,

In this thread, you have

1.  failed to refer to clergy with their proper titles (replies 1 and 10)

2.  called a priest a heretic, which is an ad hominem (reply 10)

3.  used ad hominem against another member (reply 7).

If you want to express disagreement with the leaders of your Church, and with other members of this forum, it's OK to do so.  However, you need to follow forum rules.

Since this is not the first time you have done this sort of thing, and you've posted at this forum long enough to know the rules, I am putting you on 40 days of warning.  Consider yourself lucky.  I could have put you on post moderation for so many repeated violations, and I will not hesitate to do so if you commit another rules violation.
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2013, 12:46:37 AM »

Quote
Consider yourself lucky.

Thank you for your kindness.

Every single word I have said is true. Whether or not it violates the forum rules is of no particular importance to me.

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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2013, 08:41:17 AM »

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 08:56:37 AM »

Every single word I have said is true.
You have multiple members give you legitimate responses to show why Bishop David is worthy to be diocesan bishop. You have been reprimanded by the administrator for violations incurred by your comments and yet you believe what you said is true. What more can we do to show you your comments and attitude against Bishop David and the Coptic clergy is wrong? 

I am not asking to be confrontational. I truly want us all to have one mind and one heart. One faith with love to each other. Otherwise, it will be an embarrassment to call ourselves Christian.
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Stavro
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 01:07:03 PM »

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You have been reprimanded by the administrator for violations incurred by your comments and yet you believe what you said is true.

Rules of the forums are not supreme nor do they have any moral value. They are no more than organizational tools. I did not object to the application of these rules nor to the discretion of the moderator, but it does not decide what is wrong and what is right.

The fact is that Anba David is protecting a heretical brother who happens to be a priest. I cannot find any other word to describe this priest, regardless of whether or not the forum rules allow for the use of this word or not. The moderator might do some effort and suggest an expression to substitute the word.

The heresy of his brother is confirmed by his teachings about being one and the same with Protestants, in which he totally disregards any notion of Orthodoxy. His worship is Protestant and his teachings are Protestant.     

The fact is that this priest has abandoned the church where he was ordained for worldly matters. He has used the influence of this bishop to extract a huge service termination penalty although he is the one who resigned. Their demonic efforts were overlooked by an ailing Pope who lost his grip on the church, and they have attributed every single heresy and action to this Pope.

This priest , aided by his brother, has lobbied to stop the building of what they consider a rival Coptic church with all dirty tricks that you can imagine.

Whether he is qualified to be a diocesan bishop does not concern me. There is room for disagreement. My opinion is that he is very shallow in his thoughts, ignorant when it comes to theology, not inspiring and lacking any spirituality. I would not have cared if his brother was not this priest who has been active in destroying the churches here in Toronto.

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You have multiple members give you legitimate responses to show why Bishop David is worthy to be diocesan bishop.

These are their opinions. But they did not refute the fact that this bishop is aiding his brother to destroy any Orthodoxy in Toronto. This bishop appears in heretical gatherings to market his brother's strategy. He facilitates this spiritual prostitution. He suppresses other orthodox churches , who are not in his jurisdiction but do not follow his brother's heretical methods.

No one also addressed my question of what qualifies a person to be a bishop and whether the ordinations of the past were performed according to biblical guidelines or not. I see the ordination of Bishop David as a good example of ordaining a nobody, in a spiritual sense, to this holy rank. My reference to the night club business might have been ill advised, but it is the truth.

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What more can we do to show you your comments and attitude against Bishop David and the Coptic clergy is wrong? 


Not all coptic clergy. The majority are honorable.

However, I have been taught that the most important task for a bishop is to perserve the Orthodox faith. This is why I admire my father Anba Raphael, and my teacher Anba Macarius, and Abona Morocs Milad, and Abona Dawoud Lam3y.

It is not because of their handsome looks (they are not) nor their public relation abilities (they are lacking in this area), it is because of their holy rank that showed fruits in them and therefore they are worthy of honor.

But those clergy who are rotten and corrupt, they have to be exposed. I am not criticising anyone because he is a thief, or an adulterer, or because we have personal disagreements. I have concerns regarding the Orthodox faith.
 
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I am not asking to be confrontational. I truly want us all to have one mind and one heart. One faith with love to each other. Otherwise, it will be an embarrassment to call ourselves Christian.

This is a step forward. It is definitely a noble feeling. Thank you.

Before we enjoy this unity, we have to eliminate the heretics from the church.

In any case, what started as an innocent question  angel resulted in a warning and will end up with post moderation or worse. 
 Calling the bishop's brother "heretical" is another ad hominem.  As Mina noted, you could have condemned his actions without resorting to name calling, and I do believe you knew better.  You are on post moderation for 30 days.
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" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 02:05:25 PM »

I can't say I am the biggest fan of HGB David. All I can say is that I will pray for him, and pray for the diocese. We call Jesus Christ "The Bishop of All Flesh" in our liturgy! Thus, regardless of who the Bishop of whichever area may be, HGB Jesus Christ seems to be on top of the whole situation, and I know that as he has done in the past, he has exalted those who serve him, and brought to naught those who have not. Whichever category any bishop falls on, I can trust that God will protect his church either through them or despite them. This is by no means anything personal against HGB David, but a general statement.

I must say, though, that I have love for stavro. I would like to speak for his character, having personally met him. He is a loving and holy man with love for his church, and more-over God. I ask you all to not judge him quickly, and understand that as a human, he may have had experiences that cause him pain, and have lit a fire under him. His distaste for HGBD may be due to what he has experienced from HGBD's brother (a hard man to love). This does not necessarily excuse his anger and rule breaking, but I only ask that he be seen as a person who loves his church and God.

As for Fr. Seraphim, YAY! The man seems very holy, and very capable. Hopefully, he will be given the bishopric, and seated in North America as a Bishop.

Ps. This here is the video that Stavro is referring to regarding Bishop David's brother. It is interesting (and deeply) saddening to say the least: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sRZXYN7_Fo

Ray

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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2013, 12:35:29 PM »

I'm going to post the rules of this website that were already broken, which can be read here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules

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* Contain Conflict -- With religious discussion, disagreement is inevitable.  Please be civil and keep conflict (provided it's on topic) within the thread it was posted in.  If your conflict seems to be taking a thread off of its course, please start a new one.

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* Argumentum ad hominem (argument against the person) -- Frequently shortened to ad hominem, this is a logical fallacy in debate that describes an attempt to discredit an argument or position by attacking the individual holding said position (rather than discussing the merits of the position).  As a discussion forum, our purpose is to debate ideas, principles, statements, etc., and not to attack the character of individuals.  As such, personal arguments are forbidden in the public fora; those who sign up for the private fora understand that this tactic is permitted there.

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Regarding Clergy Titles

1. Any clergy of the mainline (i.e. non vagante) OO, EO New- and Old-Calendarist Churches shall be called by their proper title or salutation, a respectable abbreviation of such, or an acceptable academic-style reference.  Extreme abbreviations are only appropriate for institutions or large groups (i.e. MP for "Moscow Patriarchate" not "Patriarch of Moscow").  All such references should be made with respect following proper decorum (i.e. no inclusion of pejoratives or other personal attacks).

E.g. When referring to the current Archbishop of Athens and all Greece, "Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens," "Archbishop Ieronymos," "His Beatitude Ieronymos of Athens," "His Beatitude Ieronymos," and "the Archbishop of Athens," etc., would all be appropriate; "Ieronymos (Liapis) of Athens," or “Ieronymos of Athens” are acceptable academic-style references; just "Ieronymos," or some sort of nickname ("Jeronimo") would not be appropriate.

2. Any man formerly a clergyman of one of the groups named in #1 who has been removed from clerical status without the dispute of or transfer to the other 2 groups shall not be referred to as an active clergyman, but either by their lay name, or as a former clergyman.  Again, such references should be made without pejoratives or personal attacks.

E.g. If a man named Paul Smith was defrocked from the priesthood (for abusing children, preaching heresy, etc.), you can call him "Mr. Paul Smith," "former priest Paul Smith," or even "disgraced former priest Paul Smith," but not, "Paul Smith the rapist" or "the heretic Paul Smith," etc.

3. Any person who is a clergyman of a group not listed in #1 can either be referred to by their official clerical title, a corresponding title appropriate with their position, or an appropriate academic-style reference; however, this must be done without pejorative, maintaining a minimal state of decorum.

E.g. The current Roman (Latin) Catholic Pope of Rome can be referred to as “Pope Francis I of Rome,” “Pope Francis,” “the Pope of Rome,” etc.; “Francis (Bergoglio) of Rome” or “Francis of Rome” are acceptable academic-style references.  It would not be appropriate to call him Cardinal Bergoglio (since that is no longer his title in the RCC), the Heretic, Francis, or any other pejorative, diminutive, or other form of insult.

4.  Defrocked clergy who go to other jurisdictions/groups should be treated with usual courtesies; those who do not go to other groups shall be treated as laymen/monks.

As for vagantes, we can use the most basic definition: groups with only 2-3 bishops.

No one here is going to warn or put anyone on moderation for criticizing a bishop or priest.  You may even say that the beliefs or actions the said bishop or priest is doing is heretical, but you cannot say the person is a heretic or heretical, especially when no official Synodical judgment has been made against them.  Let's not have this "cyber martyr" complex in this forum, because that is just plain silly.  You can get the same message across without breaking the rules I have outlined.  We are adults, let's act like adults.  Even if the Pope posted in the same inflammatory way, no one is above the rules.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:05:42 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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