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Author Topic: New book about Chalcedon  (Read 910 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 26, 2013, 08:48:39 PM »

There's a new book about Chalcedon:

http://www.amazon.com/Christology-Council-Chalcedon-Shenouda-Ishak/dp/1478712929/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382800990&sr=8-1&keywords=Christology+and+the+Council+of+Chalcedon

Has anyone read it?  Does anyone know the author?  I'm reluctant to get it because it is so expensive.
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 09:11:58 PM »

As he written anything else? Considering the publishing company actually is more used for self-published works, I dunno how much stock you would put into its 700+ pages.

If there is something radically new or something uncovered then maybe. Don't see why you need the book Salpy.
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 11:51:14 PM »

Fr. Shenouda Maher Ishak (pronounced Iss---Haq) is a Coptic celibate priest, founder of the Coptic Monastery of St. Shenoute the Archmandrite in Upstate NY, and one of the very few Coptic people who can actually speak and understand the Coptic language and has done several research, in my understanding, on the Coptic language and Coptic theology using original Coptic sources.

In this case, he seemed to have published his own work on the Coptic rejection of Chalcedon, and he is known for writing a lot.  He wrote a thesis in his Oxford days as a PhD student on "The phonetics and phonology of the Bohairic dialect of Coptic and the survival of Coptic words in the colloquial and Classical Arabic of Egypt and of Coptic grammatical constructions in colloquial Egyptian Arabic" (a mouthful I know), which is more than 2000 pages.   ya...lol!
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 12:43:09 AM »

Impressive.   Shocked

I'm tempted to get the new book.
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 12:55:16 PM »

Just received my copy of this book. Hope to read it soon...
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 01:17:03 PM »

Refreshing breath of sanity. No non-sense of "great misunderstanding" talk. I hope he keeps that line in the main argument of the book as well.

Quote
The main obstacle preventing unification of these three most traditional groups of Churches is still agreeing upon their beliefs in the nature of Christ.


And "Chalcedonian"/"Non-Chalcedonian" is a far more relevant and realistic descritption than the silly "oriental", "eastern" stuff.

Quote
The first schism in the Church occurred in 451 A.D. as a result of the Council of Chalcedon when afterwards Christians were divided into either Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian. The Oriental Orthodox Family of Churches (i.e. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian, Indian, Ethiopian, and Eritrean) are non-Chalcedonian whereas the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are Chalcedonian.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:17:28 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 01:35:03 PM »

1) The original anti-chalcedonian theological texts were written in Greek.

2) I am convinced that the issue of the wills of Christ is much more of an obstacle. Why do people avoid discussing it? There should be an EO-OO dialogue about this topic.
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2013, 02:07:42 PM »

I already collected a bunch of theology books and donated them to the library.
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2013, 02:11:36 PM »

1) The original anti-chalcedonian theological texts were written in Greek.

2) I am convinced that the issue of the wills of Christ is much more of an obstacle. Why do people avoid discussing it?
Easy.  It wasn't discussed at Chalcedon.
There should be an EO-OO dialogue about this topic.
Perhaps.
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2013, 02:12:28 PM »

Refreshing breath of sanity. No non-sense of "great misunderstanding" talk. I hope he keeps that line in the main argument of the book as well.

Quote
The main obstacle preventing unification of these three most traditional groups of Churches is still agreeing upon their beliefs in the nature of Christ.


And "Chalcedonian"/"Non-Chalcedonian" is a far more relevant and realistic descritption than the silly "oriental", "eastern" stuff.

Quote
The first schism in the Church occurred in 451 A.D. as a result of the Council of Chalcedon when afterwards Christians were divided into either Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian. The Oriental Orthodox Family of Churches (i.e. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian, Indian, Ethiopian, and Eritrean) are non-Chalcedonian whereas the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are Chalcedonian.
Skips the Nestorian Schism as a result of the Council of Ephesus.
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 02:15:02 PM »

Fr. Shenouda Maher Ishak (pronounced Iss---Haq) is a Coptic celibate priest, founder of the Coptic Monastery of St. Shenoute the Archmandrite in Upstate NY, and one of the very few Coptic people who can actually speak and understand the Coptic language and has done several research, in my understanding, on the Coptic language and Coptic theology using original Coptic sources.

In this case, he seemed to have published his own work on the Coptic rejection of Chalcedon, and he is known for writing a lot.  He wrote a thesis in his Oxford days as a PhD student on "The phonetics and phonology of the Bohairic dialect of Coptic and the survival of Coptic words in the colloquial and Classical Arabic of Egypt and of Coptic grammatical constructions in colloquial Egyptian Arabic" (a mouthful I know), which is more than 2000 pages.   ya...lol!
IIRC I disagree with his linguistic conclusions, but it's available here:
http://copticsounds.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/online-emile-maher-ishaks-the-phonetics-and-phonology-of-the-bohairic-dialect-of-coptic/
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 02:21:29 PM »


What a find! Isa, you are pure gold!
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2013, 02:36:47 PM »

1) The original anti-chalcedonian theological texts were written in Greek.

2) I am convinced that the issue of the wills of Christ is much more of an obstacle. Why do people avoid discussing it?
Easy.  It wasn't discussed at Chalcedon.

Right. 

Was this dispute even an issue within the OO communion?  I'm no expert in this area, so perhaps it was and I'm just unaware of it, but I've been under the impression that this was an entirely Chalcedonian dispute, coming as it did after our parting of ways, and yet somehow it got associated with us. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 02:47:17 PM »

1) The original anti-chalcedonian theological texts were written in Greek.

2) I am convinced that the issue of the wills of Christ is much more of an obstacle. Why do people avoid discussing it?
Easy.  It wasn't discussed at Chalcedon.

Right. 

Was this dispute even an issue within the OO communion?  I'm no expert in this area, so perhaps it was and I'm just unaware of it, but I've been under the impression that this was an entirely Chalcedonian dispute, coming as it did after our parting of ways, and yet somehow it got associated with us. 

Monoenergism and monotheletism were devised to get the anti-Chalcedonians back on board. Representatives of the Coptic and Armenian churches did sign onto the monoenergist document "the Nine Chapters" which became one of the main problem documents in the 6th ecumenical council. There was a little discussion of this earlier.
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 04:53:49 PM »

--Subscribe--
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:30:53 PM »

Refreshing breath of sanity. No non-sense of "great misunderstanding" talk. I hope he keeps that line in the main argument of the book as well.

Quote
The main obstacle preventing unification of these three most traditional groups of Churches is still agreeing upon their beliefs in the nature of Christ.


And "Chalcedonian"/"Non-Chalcedonian" is a far more relevant and realistic descritption than the silly "oriental", "eastern" stuff.

Quote
The first schism in the Church occurred in 451 A.D. as a result of the Council of Chalcedon when afterwards Christians were divided into either Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian. The Oriental Orthodox Family of Churches (i.e. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian, Indian, Ethiopian, and Eritrean) are non-Chalcedonian whereas the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are Chalcedonian.
Skips the Nestorian Schism as a result of the Council of Ephesus.

That was my first thought when reading the description.
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:34:39 PM »

1) The original anti-chalcedonian theological texts were written in Greek.

2) I am convinced that the issue of the wills of Christ is much more of an obstacle. Why do people avoid discussing it?
Easy.  It wasn't discussed at Chalcedon.

Right. 

Was this dispute even an issue within the OO communion?  I'm no expert in this area, so perhaps it was and I'm just unaware of it, but I've been under the impression that this was an entirely Chalcedonian dispute, coming as it did after our parting of ways, and yet somehow it got associated with us. 

Monoenergism and monotheletism were devised to get the anti-Chalcedonians back on board. Representatives of the Coptic and Armenian churches did sign onto the monoenergist document "the Nine Chapters" which became one of the main problem documents in the 6th ecumenical council. There was a little discussion of this earlier.

That is true, but based on a Severian understanding of theletism, and based on reading the Disputation with Pyrrhus, I actually find Maximus to be more Severian in thought than he thinks.

And I'm not sure why Gorazd thinks it's "avoided".  Studies on St. Severus' understanding of wills seem to point that he believed the will and energy have a basis in nature.  Thus, the questions are usually, "does Christ have a human will/energy?" and "does Christ have human free will?" are both answered as yes in St. Severus.

Soooo, in other words, one can argue the "semantics" in Chalcedon lead to two Orthodox sides condemning each other, whereas the "semantics" in the 6th Century lead to 2 semantically similar but differently thinking parties talking to each other.
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 10:56:56 PM »

Refreshing breath of sanity. No non-sense of "great misunderstanding" talk. I hope he keeps that line in the main argument of the book as well.

Quote
The main obstacle preventing unification of these three most traditional groups of Churches is still agreeing upon their beliefs in the nature of Christ.


And "Chalcedonian"/"Non-Chalcedonian" is a far more relevant and realistic descritption than the silly "oriental", "eastern" stuff.

Quote
The first schism in the Church occurred in 451 A.D. as a result of the Council of Chalcedon when afterwards Christians were divided into either Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian. The Oriental Orthodox Family of Churches (i.e. Coptic, Syrian, Armenian, Indian, Ethiopian, and Eritrean) are non-Chalcedonian whereas the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are Chalcedonian.

LOL! Have you read the book to conclude that it's a breathe of fresh air?  Did you miss the part where he said that this book is a "fruit" of the interdenominational dialogues with the GASP "Eastern" Orthodox "family" of Churches and the Roman Catholic Church?

I wonder then what his view of the dialogues are in the book.  If as you think it rejects that we are saying the same thing, I would hope you would have actually read the book to confirm that you are breathing quite refreshingly.

Neither am I saying that he would agree with me that there were semantic differences.  It seems clear to me his main study is to give an exhaustive perspective from the Coptic side (if it is even a good study to begin with).  That's merely what I got from the description.

I promise you though, I'm not holding my breathe for this book until I read it myself Wink ...maybe that makes you feel better.
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 12:52:10 AM »

Refreshing breath of sanity. No non-sense of "great misunderstanding" talk. I hope he keeps that line in the main argument of the book as well.

Quote
The main obstacle preventing unification of these three most traditional groups of Churches is still agreeing upon their beliefs in the nature of Christ.

I take it you don't care much for the Antiochian Patriarchate? Wink
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »

Was this dispute even an issue within the OO communion?  I'm no expert in this area, so perhaps it was and I'm just unaware of it, but I've been under the impression that this was an entirely Chalcedonian dispute, coming as it did after our parting of ways, and yet somehow it got associated with us. 

The point is that the EO church teaches two wills, whereas the OO church teaches one will (though, if I understand correctly, not one exclusively divine will, as the monotheletes did). If we mean the same thing with different words, at least it should be considered how exactly that is so and how both terminologies relate to each other.

That was done for the natures of Christ in, but not only in, Chambésy (I might argue, already Constantinople II went into that sense). But the issue of the will(s) of Christ still needs some work to get done.
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 08:40:55 PM »

And I'm not sure why Gorazd thinks it's "avoided".  Studies on St. Severus' understanding of wills seem to point that he believed the will and energy have a basis in nature.  Thus, the questions are usually, "does Christ have a human will/energy?" and "does Christ have human free will?" are both answered as yes in St. Severus.

There are studies, but it seems to be that this topic was never treated in EO-OO (or CO-NCO) dialogue, which it should be.
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2013, 02:17:31 AM »

And I'm not sure why Gorazd thinks it's "avoided".  Studies on St. Severus' understanding of wills seem to point that he believed the will and energy have a basis in nature.  Thus, the questions are usually, "does Christ have a human will/energy?" and "does Christ have human free will?" are both answered as yes in St. Severus.

There are studies, but it seems to be that this topic was never treated in EO-OO (or CO-NCO) dialogue, which it should be.
Yes it was discussed in the dialogues.  They ended up agreeing that wills and energies are connected to nature, and thus divine and human properties are all preserved, including will, energy, etc.
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2013, 10:01:23 AM »

Yes it was discussed in the dialogues.  They ended up agreeing that wills and energies are connected to nature, and thus divine and human properties are all preserved, including will, energy, etc.
Can you show me a source please? I would be glad to read about that
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2013, 12:52:21 PM »

Yes it was discussed in the dialogues.  They ended up agreeing that wills and energies are connected to nature, and thus divine and human properties are all preserved, including will, energy, etc.
Can you show me a source please? I would be glad to read about that

Really?  I expected better from you.  I thought you read the results of these consultations.  The talk of the wills and energies started very early, at the SECOND UNOFFICIAL consultation in Bristol in 1967:

Quote
+ Based  on the teachings of common fathers  of  the  universal  Church  they
  approached the Christological question from the perspective of salvation.

+ ``Thus He who is consubstantial with the Father became by  the  Incarnation
  consubstantial also with us''. God became by nature man that man may attain
  to His uncreated glory.

+ Ever since the fifth century, we have used different formulae to confess our
  common faith in the One Lord Jesus Christ, perfect God and perfect Man. Some
  of us affirm two natures,  wills  and energies hypostatically united  in the
  One Lord Jesus Christ.  Some of us  affirm one united  divine-human  nature,
  will and energy in the same Christ.  But both sides speak of a union without
  confusion, without change, without division, without  separation.  The  four
  adverbs belong to our common tradition.  Both  affirm the dynamic permanence
  of the God-head and the Manhood,  with  all  their  natural  properties  and
  faculties, in the one Christ.  Those  who  speak  in terms of ``two'' do not
  thereby divide or separate.  Those  who  speak  in  terms of  ``one'' do not
  thereby commingle or confuse.

+ They  discussed  also  the  continuity  of  doctrine  in the Councils of the
  Church,  and especially the mono-energistic and monothelete controversies of
  the seventh century. They agreed that the human will is neither absorbed nor
  suppressed by the divine will in the Incarnate Logos,  nor are they contrary
  one to the other. 

Quote
4. Ever since the fifth century,  we  have used different  formulae to confess
our common  faith in the One Lord  Jesus Christ,  perfect God and perfect Man.
Some of us affirm two natures, wills and energies hypostatically united in the
One Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us affirm one united  divine-human nature, will
and energy in the  same Christ.  But  both  sides  speak of  a  union  without
confusion, without   change, without division,  without  separation.  The four
adverbs belong to our common tradition.  Both affirm the dynamic permanence of
the God- head   and the Manhood,  with   all  their   natural  properties  and
faculties, in  the one  Christ. Those who  speak  in terms of ``two''   do not
thereby divide or separate. Those who speak in terms of ``one'' do not thereby
commingle or  confuse. The  ``without division, without  separation'' of those
who  say ``two,'' and the ``without  change, without confusion'' of  those who
say ``one'' need to  be specially underlined, in order  that we may understand
each other.

5. In this  spirit, we have discussed also  the  continuity of doctrine in the
Councils of  the Church, and   especially  the  monenergistic and  monothelete
controversies of the seventh century. All of us agree  that the human  will is
neither absorbed nor suppressed by the divine will in the Incarnate Logos, nor
are they contrary one  to the  other. The  uncreated and created natures, with
the fullness of their natural  properties  and  faculties, were united without
confusion  or separation, and   continue to  operate in  the  one Christ,  our
Saviour. The position of those who wish to speak of one  divine-human will and
energy united without confusion or separation does  not appear therefore to be
incompatible  with the  decision  of the Council of  Constantinople  (680-81),
which affirms  two natural wills   and two natural energies  in  Him  existing
indivisibly, inconvertibly, inseparably, inconfusedly.

Geneva 1970:

Quote
3.  The human will and energy of Christ are neither absorbed nor suppressed by
His divine will and energy, nor are the former  opposed to the latter, but are
united together in perfect concord without division or confusion; He who wills
and   acts is  always  the One  hypostasis  of   the Logos Incarnate.   One is
Emmanuel, God and Man, Our Lord and Saviour, Whom we adore and worship and who
yet is one of us.

Anba Bishoy Monastery 1989

Quote
It  is the  same  hypostasis of the Second   Person of the  Trinity, eternally
begotten from the Father who in these last  days became a human  being and was
born  of the Blessed  Virgin. This is  the mystery of  the hypostatic union we
confess in humble  adoration - the  real union of  the  divine with the human,
with  all the  properties  and  functions  of  the  uncreated  divine  nature,
including natural will and natural energy, inseparably and unconfusedly united
with the created human nature with all its properties and functions, including
natural will and natural energy. It is the  Logos Incarnate who is the subject
of all the willing and acting of Jesus Christ.

Chambesy 1990:

Quote
+ They  reaffirmed  our  common faith based  on the first  Agreed Statement on
  Christology.   Points  reiterated  were  the condemnation of the heresies of
  Eutyches  and Nestorius;  the Incarnation  of the Logos from the Holy Spirit
  and the Virgin Mary Theotokos,  to become fully consubstantial with us;  the
  hypostatic union of  His divine and human natures with their proper energies
  and  wills naturally without confusion, without change, without division and
  without separation, being distinguished in thought alone;  the acceptance of
  the  first  three  ecumenical  councils  as  common  heritage  and  a mutual
  understanding of respective views on the four later councils;
  the veneration of icons.

Geneva 1990

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3. Both families agree  that the Hypostasis of the  Logos became  composite by
uniting to His divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, which
He has  in common with  the Father and  the Holy Spirit, created human nature,
which He assumed  at the Incarnation  and made  His own, with its natural will
and energy.

4. Both families agree  that the natures  with their proper energies and wills
are united hypostatically and  naturally   without confusion, without  change,
without  division and without separation,  and that they are distinguished  in
thought alone.

5. Both families agree that He who wills and acts is always the one Hypostasis
of the Logos Incarnate.


All quotes are taken from http://www.coptic.net/articles/orthodoxunitydialog.txt
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 12:53:04 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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