Author Topic: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...  (Read 5464 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« on: October 25, 2013, 09:39:22 PM »
There have been many threads on this forum where the contentious subject of Rastafari has been discussed. So I wanted to post a link to a wonderful testimony of how Haile Selassie and Rastafari were divinely used to bring one man to the Orthodox Christian Faith. He is now a Deacon of the Serbian Orthodox Church - Father Deacon Michael Wilson. I have had the occasion to speak with him by phone on a few occasions, and he is a wise, gracious, and humble man. This testimony was instrumental in my own conversion to the Orthodox Faith, and I have given out many copies of it to other Rastafarians. So please be careful about judging and condemning all things "Rastafarian." There are many of us who would never have discovered the apostolic Faith apart from the teachings of His Majesty and the Rastafarian worldview. Please take the time to read this beautiful testimony. It is truly inspiring.  :)

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_27/Songs_of_Freedom.pdf


Selam
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:39:58 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline Gayle

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 09:57:49 PM »
God is glorious

Offline Salpy

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 10:07:09 PM »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 10:07:31 PM »
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2013, 08:51:11 PM »
I liked it when the interviewer asked Fr. Deacon Michael if Orthodoxy could spread in Jamaica and he said unequivocally, "It has, in the form of the Ethiopian tradition".  It was a little disappointing, however, that the follow up question didn't have to do with what could be done to support the existing Orthodox mission, which has indeed become an integral part of Jamaican culture, but rather how the Byzantine Church could get a foothold and compete.

My quibble with this isn't whether or not some Chalcedonians consider us to be Orthodox or not; it has to do with the ambiguous and sometimes disingenuous way in which some Chalcedonians approach the point at which Orthodoxy, Rastafari, and the Byzantine Church intersect.

I can't help but find it irksome when, on any number of message boards and blog comment sections, some of our Chalcedonian brothers and sisters emphasize certain facts to Rastas, such as "You know, Bob Marley died Orthodox" or "You know, His Majesty was a devout Orthodox Christian" while simultaneously endeavoring to insinuate the idea that the Oriental Orthodox Churches "aren't quite Orthodox" and that Rastas would be better served by becoming Chalcedonian.  As I said, if they don't regard us as Orthodox, they don't.  No big deal.  That's not the issue here.  But to act as if Bob and His Majesty were somehow Orthodox while the rest of us aren't...or that Rastas would be better following the examples of Bob and His Majesty by becoming Chalcedonian...is just weird and sort of dishonest.

This blog post, for example, is entitled "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian":

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/06/03/bob-marley-orthodox-christian/

The author makes a point of emphasizing that Bob and His Majesty were Orthodox, and that Rastas should follow their example.  Great.  Then some guy in the comments section writes:

Quote
All this nonsense about mixing monophysites with Eastern Orthodox under the same banner is getting me down; the same autistic logic should demand we go mad about the Latins because they call themselves “Catholic”.

The “Oriental Orthodox” are very different to us, and have a christology that borders on the Islamic (indeed, Georges Florevsky categorized Islam as being essentially derived as a Coptic heresy).

It is a sin and a scandal to continue enjoining the monophysites to those in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Let them keep their own, and let us get on with our business.

Thought for the day: have you noticed how everyone claims to be in communion with us (their own Popes, including the Bishop of Rome, the Coptic Pope of Alexandria etc.) yet we will never give them the Mystery of Mysteries?

Okay, no big deal.  That's his opinion.  Whatever.  But then the blog's author, the guy who entitled his article "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian" and spent paragraph after paragraph urging Rastas to follow Bob's example in becoming Orthodox chimes in with:

Quote
Amen and amen.

Really?  Respectfully, you can't have it both ways.  Either it's "Bob Marley: Monophysite Barred from the Mystery of Mysteries" or its "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian" along with the rest of us with whom he was actually in communion.  This is just one example out of many such discussions across the web, and honestly, I detected a little of the same tone in the article Gebre posted (though not from Fr. Deacon Michael, although he used the term "monophysite", I don't think he meant it as a pejorative).  I don't want to debate Chalcedon here for the millionth time, I'm just calling for a little intellectual honesty and consistency when it comes to this "Bob was Orthodox...but I'm not so sure about everyone else in the Church he actually belonged to, so you're better off with us" thing.  If one is so inclined, there are more forthright and accurate ways to win Rastas to Chalcedonianism than to bait and switch in this way.
“Never confuse the person formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him; because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.”

St. John of Kronstadt

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2013, 08:56:35 PM »
I liked it when the interviewer asked Fr. Deacon Michael if Orthodoxy could spread in Jamaica and he said unequivocally, "It has, in the form of the Ethiopian tradition".  It was a little disappointing, however, that the follow up question didn't have to do with what could be done to support the existing Orthodox mission, which has indeed become an integral part of Jamaican culture, but rather how the Byzantine Church could get a foothold and compete.

My quibble with this isn't whether or not some Chalcedonians consider us to be Orthodox or not; it has to do with the ambiguous and sometimes disingenuous way in which some Chalcedonians approach the point at which Orthodoxy, Rastafari, and the Byzantine Church intersect.

I can't help but find it irksome when, on any number of message boards and blog comment sections, some of our Chalcedonian brothers and sisters emphasize certain facts to Rastas, such as "You know, Bob Marley died Orthodox" or "You know, His Majesty was a devout Orthodox Christian" while simultaneously endeavoring to insinuate the idea that the Oriental Orthodox Churches "aren't quite Orthodox" and that Rastas would be better served by becoming Chalcedonian.  As I said, if they don't regard us as Orthodox, they don't.  No big deal.  That's not the issue here.  But to act as if Bob and His Majesty were somehow Orthodox while the rest of us aren't...or that Rastas would be better following the examples of Bob and His Majesty by becoming Chalcedonian...is just weird and sort of dishonest.

This blog post, for example, is entitled "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian":

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/06/03/bob-marley-orthodox-christian/

The author makes a point of emphasizing that Bob and His Majesty were Orthodox, and that Rastas should follow their example.  Great.  Then some guy in the comments section writes:

Quote
All this nonsense about mixing monophysites with Eastern Orthodox under the same banner is getting me down; the same autistic logic should demand we go mad about the Latins because they call themselves “Catholic”.

The “Oriental Orthodox” are very different to us, and have a christology that borders on the Islamic (indeed, Georges Florevsky categorized Islam as being essentially derived as a Coptic heresy).

It is a sin and a scandal to continue enjoining the monophysites to those in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Let them keep their own, and let us get on with our business.

Thought for the day: have you noticed how everyone claims to be in communion with us (their own Popes, including the Bishop of Rome, the Coptic Pope of Alexandria etc.) yet we will never give them the Mystery of Mysteries?

Okay, no big deal.  That's his opinion.  Whatever.  But then the blog's author, the guy who entitled his article "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian" and spent paragraph after paragraph urging Rastas to follow Bob's example in becoming Orthodox chimes in with:

Quote
Amen and amen.

Really?  Respectfully, you can't have it both ways.  Either it's "Bob Marley: Monophysite Barred from the Mystery of Mysteries" or its "Bob Marley: Orthodox Christian" along with the rest of us with whom he was actually in communion.  This is just one example out of many such discussions across the web, and honestly, I detected a little of the same tone in the article Gebre posted (though not from Fr. Deacon Michael, although he used the term "monophysite", I don't think he meant it as a pejorative).  I don't want to debate Chalcedon here for the millionth time, I'm just calling for a little intellectual honesty and consistency when it comes to this "Bob was Orthodox...but I'm not so sure about everyone else in the Church he actually belonged to, so you're better off with us" thing.  If one is so inclined, there are more forthright and accurate ways to win Rastas to Chalcedonianism than to bait and switch in this way.

+1

Give thanks for making these excellent points. I tend to be pretty ecumenical, so I focus on what unites rather than what divides. FD Michael Wilson has never come across to me as a Chalcedonian zealot. He seems to accept all Orthodox as... well... Orthodox. I've learned to tune out the fundamentalist voices that want to condemn OO's as heretics. Life is too short.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline WPM

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2013, 09:22:08 PM »
Nothing wrong with Rastafaris ... I would wear a Bob Marley t-shirt. Or play Hacky-sack

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2013, 09:25:26 PM »
+1

Give thanks for making these excellent points. I tend to be pretty ecumenical, so I focus on what unites rather than what divides. FD Michael Wilson has never come across to me as a Chalcedonian zealot. He seems to accept all Orthodox as... well... Orthodox. I've learned to tune out the fundamentalist voices that want to condemn OO's as heretics. Life is too short.


Selam

A good attitude in my opinion. I always tune out such voices as well, since I come from a parish that once communed our many Eritrean parishioners before they were able to build a church for themselves, in order to have services in their own tradition. I've never once doubted the Orthodoxy of any of them.

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2013, 09:28:40 PM »
Nothing wrong with Rastafaris ... I would wear a Bob Marley t-shirt. Or play Hacky-sack

I have a few Bob Marley shirts. Its always interesting that when I wear them, people assume I'm the kind of person they can buy weed from. However, it gives me a chance to talk to them about the bigger picture of who Bob Marley was and the main focus of his music as well as about his later faith.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 09:29:12 PM by Andrew21091 »

Offline Shiny

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2013, 09:29:15 PM »
Nothing wrong with Rastafaris ... I would wear a Bob Marley t-shirt. Or play Hacky-sack
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Offline mike

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 09:57:41 AM »
There were also people who were brought to Orthodoxy by paganism or Communism. Shall we not condemn paganism or Communism too?

Offline William

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2013, 03:48:43 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2013, 04:17:42 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

If you're going to usurp for yourself the name "Orthodox", why wouldn't you keep going? 
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 04:25:16 PM »
+1

Give thanks for making these excellent points. I tend to be pretty ecumenical, so I focus on what unites rather than what divides. FD Michael Wilson has never come across to me as a Chalcedonian zealot. He seems to accept all Orthodox as... well... Orthodox. I've learned to tune out the fundamentalist voices that want to condemn OO's as heretics. Life is too short.


Selam

A good attitude in my opinion. I always tune out such voices as well, since I come from a parish that once communed our many Eritrean parishioners before they were able to build a church for themselves, in order to have services in their own tradition. I've never once doubted the Orthodoxy of any of them.

The same situation exists back home at the local OCA and Bulgarian churches in my area of Northern California, where there are lots of Eritreans and Ethiopians but still no OO churches. And here in Albuquerque, before we were granted our own priests to serve us (some 16-17 years ago; long before I moved here), the local Copts were apparently communed at the Greek Orthodox Church. We maintain especially warm relations with them to this day, though the practice of communing with them has obviously stopped, and any other OO in the area come to our parish rather than any Chalcedonian church (since I've been here the only non-Copts have been Ethiopians, but apparently there used to be Armenians too).

As for the OP, I agree with Michal: People coming into the church though various heretical or blasphemous belief systems doesn't mean those belief systems should be seen as acceptable in any way. It is to Bob Marley's credit that he eventually saw the light and embraced the true religion (well, it is nothing less than the work of the Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Rastafarianism is still spiritual delusion, and always will be.

Offline mike

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2013, 04:44:35 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

If you're going to usurp for yourself the name "Orthodox", why wouldn't you keep going? 

Stop.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2013, 05:07:21 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

If you're going to usurp for yourself the name "Orthodox", why wouldn't you keep going? 

Stop.

 ;)
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2013, 08:20:34 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.
“Never confuse the person formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him; because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.”

St. John of Kronstadt

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 03:13:37 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

That could have been worded differently.  But I'm glad for Antionious Nikolas's post above me to make the point so subtle.

In any sense, to quote a fellow oc.net poster, it is a "Satanic delusion" to worship Haile Selassie as Christ.  In fact, does it offend others to even think that Rastafarianism is one of the greatest "Satanic delusions" in Jamaica?  ;)

« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 03:18:15 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline William

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 07:11:00 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2013, 07:13:10 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.

When it comes to these Evangelicals?  Sounds more like feeding people a bait before a trap.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2013, 08:35:53 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.

Lying to people is not feeding them milk.  Either tell them what Bob actually was - Oriental Orthodox - and why they should not be that but rather Chalcedonian or Evangelical or whatever you think they should be - or you are being dishonest.  Obscuring the facts and making it out that Bob was in communion with the EP or Billy Graham, as the case may be, instead of the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, is lying plain and simple.
“Never confuse the person formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him; because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.”

St. John of Kronstadt

Offline William

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2013, 08:45:52 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.

Lying to people is not feeding them milk.  Either tell them what Bob actually was - Oriental Orthodox - and why they should not be that but rather Chalcedonian or Evangelical or whatever you think they should be - or you are being dishonest.  Obscuring the facts and making it out that Bob was in communion with the EP or Billy Graham, as the case may be, instead of the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, is lying plain and simple.

It's not lying, it's just adjusting the facts to one's own advantage.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2013, 08:49:38 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.

Lying to people is not feeding them milk.  Either tell them what Bob actually was - Oriental Orthodox - and why they should not be that but rather Chalcedonian or Evangelical or whatever you think they should be - or you are being dishonest.  Obscuring the facts and making it out that Bob was in communion with the EP or Billy Graham, as the case may be, instead of the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, is lying plain and simple.

It's not lying, it's just adjusting the facts to one's own advantage.

A weed by any other name would smell as acrid.  ;)
“Never confuse the person formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him; because evil is but a chance misfortune, an illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement.”

St. John of Kronstadt

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »
Last time I talked to my dad I told him that Marley was Orthodox. On oc.net I never refer to Non Chalcedonians as Orthodox. It's just fun to claim him.

Hey, you're in "good" company.  A lot of the Evangelicals in the "gospel reggae" crowd are deceptive and hypocritical in the same way.  They love to tell their potential converts that Bob died a "Christian", but if you ask them if people who honor the Theotokos and the saints, kiss icons, and pray with incense - like Bob did - are Christians...not so much.

You have to feed people milk before meat.

Lying to people is not feeding them milk.  Either tell them what Bob actually was - Oriental Orthodox - and why they should not be that but rather Chalcedonian or Evangelical or whatever you think they should be - or you are being dishonest.  Obscuring the facts and making it out that Bob was in communion with the EP or Billy Graham, as the case may be, instead of the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, is lying plain and simple.

It's not lying, it's just adjusting the facts to one's own advantage.

Nice, spoken like a truth-teller :P
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 08:59:08 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2013, 09:08:28 PM »
Oh, how I wish this thread were private... ;D

Let me put it this way: If it is to your advantage that a reggae music star is presented as being a member of your communion even though he never was, then go ahead and have him. Claim he was Eastern Orthodox, claim he was Roman Catholic, heck, claim he was Raelian for all I care...but then see what quality of inquirer you get out of spreading such disinformation. When I told my hippie cousin that I had converted to Coptic Orthodoxy a few years back, he immediately lit up: "Oh, cool! That's like Bob Marley, right? He was that, I think..." I explained that Bob Marley had converted to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which is in communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church and had been administered by it for about 1600 years, but they're not the same people -- Copts are Egyptian, while Orthodox Tewahedo are Ethiopians or Eritreans. Predictably, he was much less interested in this information. "Yeah...um...that's cool, though; I love Bob Marley."

That's mostly what you're ever going to get. People who love Bob Marley, the reggae star. Hey, maybe Che Guevara can be Eastern Orthodox next. He's pretty hip with people who are interested in image over substance, too.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 09:10:36 PM by dzheremi »

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2013, 09:21:03 PM »
Why am I not surprised that point of the OP is completely missed? So far people have responded by comparing "Rastafarianism" (there is no such thing) to Communism, Bob Marley to Che Guevara, and accusing those who revere the teachings and example of a great Orthodox King of being spiritually deluded. Thank God FD Michael Wilson doesn't run around saying such insane things. Too bad more people can't learn from his wonderful wisdom and example.


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« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 09:21:22 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2013, 09:24:46 PM »
So far people have responded by comparing "Rastafarianism" (there is no such thing) to Communism

Yeah it is rather insulting to we communists.

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 09:25:06 PM by orthonorm »
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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2013, 11:02:38 PM »
Why am I not surprised that point of the OP is completely missed? So far people have responded by comparing "Rastafarianism" (there is no such thing) to Communism, Bob Marley to Che Guevara, and accusing those who revere the teachings and example of worshipping and identifying as God "reincarnate" a great Orthodox King of being spiritually deluded. Thank God FD Michael Wilson doesn't run around saying such insane things. Too bad more people can't learn from his wonderful wisdom and example.


Selam

Fixed that for you  ;)...next time read before you "adjust the facts to your own advantage"
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:05:34 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 11:11:22 PM »
"adjust the facts to your own advantage"

Are we witnessing the birth of this message board's first neologism? :)

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2013, 11:17:54 PM »
"adjust the facts to your own advantage"

Are we witnessing the birth of this message board's first neologism? :)

Lol...neologism?....no no no no no...more like same-difference-logism  :angel:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:18:00 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2013, 11:42:46 PM »
Why am I not surprised that point of the OP is completely missed? So far people have responded by comparing "Rastafarianism" (there is no such thing) to Communism, Bob Marley to Che Guevara, and accusing those who revere the teachings and example of worshipping and identifying as God "reincarnate" a great Orthodox King of being spiritually deluded. Thank God FD Michael Wilson doesn't run around saying such insane things. Too bad more people can't learn from his wonderful wisdom and example.


Selam

Fixed that for you  ;)...next time read before you "adjust the facts to your own advantage"

Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.


Selam
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:43:23 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Shiny

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2013, 11:54:44 PM »
It's not lying, it's just adjusting the facts to one's own advantage.
Sigging this. Awesome stuff.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2013, 12:36:04 AM »

Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.


Selam

IRONIC INDEED!  It's the same way I feel about people who also condemn evolution as a Satanic delusion, creating a straw man representation what what they want evolution to be so that they can easily ridicule and condemn it.  The fact that you call it a Satanic delusion proves you have no clue about it.  But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.

Selam
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:36:57 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Regnare

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2013, 12:50:45 AM »
Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.
If indeed Rastafari does not involve the worship of Haile Selassie as God incarnate (contrary to the statements of everyone I've ever seen study Rastafari, regardless of whether or not they wanted to attack it), then what on earth is it?

Besides, the point was not to conflate Rastafari and Communism. The point was to say that if people convert to Orthodoxy because Bob Marley was Orthodox, then the people you will get will very likely be Bob Marley fans and not Orthodox Christians.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2013, 01:02:12 AM »

Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.


Selam

IRONIC INDEED!  It's the same way I feel about people who also condemn evolution as a Satanic delusion, creating a straw man representation what what they want evolution to be so that they can easily ridicule and condemn it.  The fact that you call it a Satanic delusion proves you have no clue about it.  But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.

Selam

Nice try, but it don't fly. I am able to make a distinction between science and philosophy, unlike some people.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 01:03:56 AM »
Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.
If indeed Rastafari does not involve the worship of Haile Selassie as God incarnate (contrary to the statements of everyone I've ever seen study Rastafari, regardless of whether or not they wanted to attack it), then what on earth is it?


At least you ask the question. That's a start. Read the article of the OP. That will help your understanding a little bit.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Salpy

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 01:11:51 AM »
Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.
If indeed Rastafari does not involve the worship of Haile Selassie as God incarnate (contrary to the statements of everyone I've ever seen study Rastafari, regardless of whether or not they wanted to attack it), then what on earth is it?


I am by no means an expert on the topic, but from what I have read Rastafari is a broad term that covers more than one group, with different beliefs.  There are some who worship the Emperor, but there are others who don't.

Read up on it and you'll see.

There is a woman who sometimes posts here who is a member of the OCA and I think she is also Rastafari, but I haven't seen her online in a while.  Perhaps if and when she returns, she can add to what Gebre said.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:12:57 AM by Salpy »

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »
The person I am thinking of is Mama Dorothy.  People may want to read her testimony that she gave when she first came here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20326.msg493643.html#msg493643

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 01:43:01 AM »
The person I am thinking of is Mama Dorothy.  People may want to read her testimony that she gave when she first came here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20326.msg493643.html#msg493643

Yes, thank you Salpy. I know Mama Dorothy well. She is a wonderful, wonderful person. She is a devout Russian Orthodox Christian and is very knowledgeable about the Orthodox Faith. She also knows a lot about Rastafari, and she can provide good thoughts about the subject. She is a very humble person, and unlike me she is not prone to vitriolic pontifications. Along with FD Michael Wilson, she has much to offer on this topic.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 02:48:01 AM »

Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.


Selam

IRONIC INDEED!  It's the same way I feel about people who also condemn evolution as a Satanic delusion, creating a straw man representation what what they want evolution to be so that they can easily ridicule and condemn it.  The fact that you call it a Satanic delusion proves you have no clue about it.  But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.

Selam

Nice try, but it don't fly. I am able to make a distinction between science and philosophy, unlike some people.


Selam

Look, I'm not going to drag this with you.  But clearly, I made a point.  You're offended by what I said.  I wanted you to realize how much you offend me by some of the things you say here and elsewhere.

And you don't cease to disappoint unfortunately.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 03:34:52 AM »

Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.


Selam

IRONIC INDEED!  It's the same way I feel about people who also condemn evolution as a Satanic delusion, creating a straw man representation what what they want evolution to be so that they can easily ridicule and condemn it.  The fact that you call it a Satanic delusion proves you have no clue about it.  But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.

Selam

Nice try, but it don't fly. I am able to make a distinction between science and philosophy, unlike some people.


Selam

Look, I'm not going to drag this with you.  But clearly, I made a point.  You're offended by what I said.  I wanted you to realize how much you offend me by some of the things you say here and elsewhere.

And you don't cease to disappoint unfortunately.

As I said in my PM to you, I apologize for my combative tone here. I could have expressed myself in a kinder manner.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 03:45:29 AM »
Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.
If indeed Rastafari does not involve the worship of Haile Selassie as God incarnate (contrary to the statements of everyone I've ever seen study Rastafari, regardless of whether or not they wanted to attack it), then what on earth is it?


At least you ask the question. That's a start. Read the article of the OP. That will help your understanding a little bit.


Selam

I went through the article and I didn't see anything which refutes that Rastafari believe Haile Selassie to be the Messiah. In fact, the article seems to say the exact opposite and makes frequent references to it.

They might not claim to have believed it themselves - choosing their words carefully enough to evoke doubt that they ever did - but they don't deny it either.

I can understand wanting to defend that which brought you to your present faith - God knows that I do and will continue to - but it seems dangerous to me to view it as anything less than fundamentally flawed.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:46:36 AM by Hawkeye »
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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 03:58:10 AM »
Ironic, because that's exactly what those who condemn Rastafari are doing. You guys create a straw man representation of what you want Rastafari to be so you can therefore easily ridicule and condemn it. The fact that you call it "Rastafarianism" proves that you have no clue about it. But enjoy your self-righteous crusade against your straw man my brother.
If indeed Rastafari does not involve the worship of Haile Selassie as God incarnate (contrary to the statements of everyone I've ever seen study Rastafari, regardless of whether or not they wanted to attack it), then what on earth is it?


At least you ask the question. That's a start. Read the article of the OP. That will help your understanding a little bit.


Selam

I went through the article and I didn't see anything which refutes that Rastafari believe Haile Selassie to be the Messiah. In fact, the article seems to say the exact opposite and makes frequent references to it.

They might not claim to have believed it themselves - choosing their words carefully enough to evoke doubt that they ever did - but they don't deny it either.

I can understand wanting to defend that which brought you to your present faith - God knows that I do and will continue to - but it seems dangerous to me to view it as anything less than fundamentally flawed.

I've never defended Selassie worship and I never will. I never worshipped Haile Selassie, even prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy. The largest Rastafarian "mansion" (or "sect" in Babylon terms) is the Twelve Tribes, founded by Dr. Vernon Carrington (aka Prophet Gad), which clearly teaches that Christ is God and that Haile Selassie is not.

Rasta is too broad to be narrowly defined. It is much more productive to focus on criticizing Selassie worship than to bash a straw man caricature of "Rastafarianism." Do we like it when Protestants bash Orthodoxy as a superstitious and idolatrous religion that revolves around the worship of Mary and prayers to dead images? Of course not. So we should be careful not to replicate the same disingenuous mischaracterizations of Rastafarians. We will hardly lead anyone to our beloved Faith that way.


Selam
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Offline mike

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Re: Before You Condemn All Things "Rastafarian"...
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2013, 04:23:44 AM »
Then I wonder why each and every Rastafarianist posting here bashes us for not worshiping that king.