OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 27, 2014, 07:09:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What Qualifies as Liturgy?  (Read 761 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: October 24, 2013, 02:48:00 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 02:49:33 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.

It is regarded as a vesperal liturgy. Holy Communion is part of it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:50:09 AM by LBK » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 02:52:24 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.

It is regarded as a vesperal liturgy.

It's not Liturgy since there no consecration occurs.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 03:11:09 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.

It is regarded as a vesperal liturgy.

It's not Liturgy since there no consecration occurs.

It is still a Eucharistic service, and is referred to as a Liturgy in every Orthodox tradition and jurisdiction.

EDIT: In Slavonic: Литургия Преждеосвященных Даров; in Greek: Θεία Λειτουργία Προηγιασμένων Τιμίων Δώρων.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 03:17:15 AM by LBK » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 03:15:05 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.

It is regarded as a vesperal liturgy.

It's not Liturgy since there no consecration occurs.

It is still a Eucharistic service,

Define "Eucharistic service".
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 03:17:36 AM »

There are also the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held during Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent,

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.

It is regarded as a vesperal liturgy.

It's not Liturgy since there no consecration occurs.

It is still a Eucharistic service,

Define "Eucharistic service".

See my edit above.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 03:27:55 AM »

See my edit above.

I know how it sounds in Slavonic.

I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 03:29:51 AM »

See my edit above.

I know how it sounds in Slavonic.

I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 03:30:36 AM by LBK » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2013, 03:34:44 AM »

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Enlighten me.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2013, 03:41:45 AM »

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Enlighten me.


I asked you the question, and the least you can do is answer it.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 03:45:51 AM »

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Enlighten me.


I asked you the question, and the least you can do is answer it.

I do not know the answer.

I asked you a question and you ignored it.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 03:49:22 AM »

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Enlighten me.


I asked you the question, and the least you can do is answer it.

I do not know the answer.

I asked you a question and you ignored it.

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

If you do not know the answer to the question of whether this service can be conducted by a priest alone, then ask your priest, if you're honest about finding the answer, and not simply being a contrarian as you so often are on this forum. While you're at it, you could also ask him whether or not this service is a Liturgy.  police
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 03:49:37 AM by LBK » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 03:52:29 AM »

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

You ignored:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?"
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 03:55:36 AM »

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

You ignored:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?"

I have not been present at the giving of Communion to someone who is sick, dying or bedridden, and I do not know the rubrics or procedure involved in this. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 04:01:36 AM »

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

You ignored:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?"

I have not been present at the giving of Communion to someone who is sick, dying or bedridden, and I do not know the rubrics or procedure involved in this. Perhaps you can enlighten me.


Here you are:
http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/komunia/komunia1.pdf
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 04:07:15 AM »

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

You ignored:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?"

I have not been present at the giving of Communion to someone who is sick, dying or bedridden, and I do not know the rubrics or procedure involved in this. Perhaps you can enlighten me.


Here you are:
http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/komunia/komunia1.pdf

I'm afraid I can't understand Polish.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 04:11:23 AM »

These two questions I asked you were in English.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 04:12:56 AM »

These two questions I asked you were in English.

The document in the link you provided was in Polish.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 04:14:05 AM »

These two questions I asked you were in English.

The document in the link you provided was in Polish.

And how is it related to my qeustions?

BTW things like google translate exist.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 04:17:58 AM »

These two questions I asked you were in English.

The document in the link you provided was in Polish.

And how is it related to my qeustions?


Thus:

I have not been present at the giving of Communion to someone who is sick, dying or bedridden, and I do not know the rubrics or procedure involved in this. Perhaps you can enlighten me.


Here you are:
http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/komunia/komunia1.pdf



BTW things like google translate exist.

Online translations are hopeless for hymnography and prayers.


Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 04:19:01 AM »

But you can answer that:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service"
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2013, 04:24:17 AM »

But you can answer that:

"I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service"

To which my answer is: Can the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts be conducted by a priest alone, with no-one else present? Let's not forget it was you who denied this service was a Liturgy:

It's not Liturgy per se, more like vespers.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2013, 04:36:53 AM »

I do not know the answer. Trolling much?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,505


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2013, 04:44:36 AM »

I do not know the answer. Trolling much?

Not at all. As I said earlier, ask your priest, both about whether he can serve the Presanctified by himself, and whether this service is a Liturgy. Nothing trollish or unreasonable about that.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2013, 09:39:05 AM »

While you will very rarely witness it in the Church in which you inquiring, the Liturgy of St. James is the most commonly celebrated liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, which still celebrates it in the Syriac language (plus whatever the native language of the congregation is, of course; generally Arabic, Malayalam, and/or English -- here is a clip in mostly English from the Indian Syriacs in America, for instance, except for the Syriac phrases "barekhmor"/Lord bless and "Showe w zodek"/meet and right). 

I missed the part he asked about Oriental Orthodoxy.

But you didn't miss where the Liturgy of St. James was discussed.  The above is an interesting note building on one of the on-topic replies.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2013, 09:43:56 AM »

The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is indeed a "Liturgy" (and is sometimes referred to as the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist - a.k.a. St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome).  While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading
- thanksgiving
- reception of Holy Communion

Unlike vespers the priest is to be fully vested (the only times a priest fully vests for vespers is for a Vesperal Liturgy or during Bright Week); unlike Vespers there is the entrance of the gifts; unlike vespers there is reception of the gifts; unlike Vespers ordination can take place during the service (only to the Deaconate).  It stands as a bit of a paradox: a Liturgy for non-liturgical days.  But in our tradition it is a Liturgy nonetheless.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2013, 02:23:50 PM »

While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading

Like almost any other service.

Quote
- thanksgiving

Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote
- reception of Holy Communion

Like mentioned by me giving Eucharist to the sick, or typica or baptisms mentioned by some other users on the board.

The first time I attended Presanctified it took over 3 hours, so I can believe that it could be stretched to 4.

Impressive.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:24:43 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2013, 03:15:59 PM »

While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading

Like almost any other service.

Hardly.  Lots of services use passages of Scripture, but I suspect Fr George has in mind the lectionary readings, which are a characteristic of Liturgies and, in some cases, certain of the canonical hours.   

Quote
Quote
- thanksgiving

Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote
- reception of Holy Communion

Like mentioned by me giving Eucharist to the sick, or typica or baptisms mentioned by some other users on the board.

I don't know what Fr George had in mind re: thanksgiving.  Certainly I can't remember any thanksgiving as it is done in the anaphora.  But there is the thanksgiving after Communion, not to mention the rites beginning at "Holies for the holy", which are basically lifted straight from the usual Eucharistic Liturgy and, to the best of my knowledge, do not occur in Typika, sick visits, etc. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2013, 03:27:14 PM »

While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading

Like almost any other service.

Hardly.  Lots of services use passages of Scripture, but I suspect Fr George has in mind the lectionary readings, which are a characteristic of Liturgies and, in some cases, certain of the canonical hours.   

The only one service without reading I am aware of is panikhida.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2013, 03:33:37 PM »

The only one service without reading I am aware of is panikhida.

What do you have in mind by "reading"? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2013, 03:43:02 PM »

The only one service without reading I am aware of is panikhida.

What do you have in mind by "reading"? 

Fragment of Gospel or Apostle or whatever read during the service.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2013, 03:57:40 PM »

Fragment of Gospel or Apostle or whatever read during the service.

The Eucharistic Liturgies, including the Presanctified, have readings assigned in the Lectionary. 

The Vespers and Matins for certain feasts may have readings (whether they're taken or not is another story), but by no means do the daily services have regular readings outside of Great Lent. 

The rites for the other sacraments usually have their own readings assigned to the service and not to the day.  And services such as the Paraclesis have a reading or two, but I've seen it skipped as often as I've seen it taken (I've also seen readings skipped when visiting the sick if the circumstances require), so I don't think you can say much based on this.

I'm going to side with Fr George on this one.     
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2013, 04:03:02 PM »

Fragment of Gospel or Apostle or whatever read during the service.

The Eucharistic Liturgies, including the Presanctified, have readings assigned in the Lectionary. 

The Vespers and Matins for certain feasts may have readings (whether they're taken or not is another story), but by no means do the daily services have regular readings outside of Great Lent. 

The rites for the other sacraments usually have their own readings assigned to the service and not to the day.  And services such as the Paraclesis have a reading or two, but I've seen it skipped as often as I've seen it taken (I've also seen readings skipped when visiting the sick if the circumstances require), so I don't think you can say much based on this.

So there is a difference between calendar reading and set reading during the service (like in marriage fro example)?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2013, 04:12:22 PM »

So there is a difference between calendar reading and set reading during the service (like in marriage fro example)?

I guess my argument would be that the readings in the Lectionary are assigned to be read at Liturgies, and so their presence at Presanctified argues for its "Liturgical" status.  My strong hunch, though I will admit needing to go back to my books to confirm this, is that readings entered the other rites as they were separated from the Liturgy: otherwise it wouldn't be so difficult to substitute the readings for the day with readings for the occasion, or to read both sets, or some other solution.  In the Byzantine rite, the services for at least some of the sacraments retain other "Eucharistic" elements that would argue for a link between these and the Divine Liturgy.  This makes sense because the Eucharist is what completes the other sacraments.

Moreover, I would argue that, despite our common restriction of the term "Liturgy" to the Eucharist, there are other services that are "liturgy" (e.g., the canonical hours and the sacraments).   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2013, 04:22:45 PM »

In personal definition "Liturgy" is a service when gifts are consecrated and distributed to people.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2013, 04:53:13 PM »

In personal definition "Liturgy" is a service when gifts are consecrated and distributed to people.

Your personal definition may (does?) not coincide with that of the Church. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2013, 04:54:27 PM »

In personal definition "Liturgy" is a service when gifts are consecrated and distributed to people.

Your personal definition may (does?) not coincide with that of the Church. 

So what is that "of the Church"?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2013, 04:57:33 PM »

In personal definition "Liturgy" is a service when gifts are consecrated and distributed to people.

Your personal definition may (does?) not coincide with that of the Church. 

So what is that "of the Church"?

For starters:

It's not Liturgy since there no consecration occurs.

It is still a Eucharistic service, and is referred to as a Liturgy in every Orthodox tradition and jurisdiction.

EDIT: In Slavonic: Литургия Преждеосвященных Даров; in Greek: Θεία Λειτουργία Προηγιασμένων Τιμίων Δώρων.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 05:01:01 PM »

So what is "Eucharistic service"?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 05:10:18 PM »

So what is "Eucharistic service"?

I don't know if that's an official term, I suspect not.  Under "Eucharistic services", I suppose you could group together the Liturgies but also rites like the administration of Communion to the sick and homebound, "Typika with Communion" (I don't know if there is such a thing officially, but I've heard of it being done here and there in rare circumstances), etc.  All Liturgies would be "Eucharistic services", but not all "Eucharistic services" would be Liturgies. 

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated?  The latter view is that the Body sanctifies and consecrates the wine to become the Blood, which is an atypical form of consecration, but a consecration all the same.  This is the same principle behind the Syriac Orthodox equivalent of the Presanctified Liturgy, called Roshem Kozo (The Signing of the Chalice): the wine in the chalice is blessed by the Body, a fraction of which is immersed within it, effecting the consecration.  If the Slavs adopted a more Western view leaning toward non-consecration of the wine, I suppose that's another way of looking at it: whether or not it's correct, however, has no bearing on whether the service is considered a Liturgy.  The service books themselves describe it as such. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2013, 05:13:07 PM »

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated? 

Not that I purposely disagree with what you wrote above but do not get start on that Smiley
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2013, 05:36:09 PM »

Fair enough!  Cheesy
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 03:39:13 AM »

See my edit above.

I know how it sounds in Slavonic.

I am interested in your definitions of "Liturgy" and "Eucharistic service". When one is visited by a priest with daronositsa is it Liturgy too?

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Never. No Liturgy is served by a Priest alone. The Divine Liturgy is not a personal devotion. The faithful must be present and participate.
Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 03:45:49 AM »

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated? 

Not that I purposely disagree with what you wrote above but do not get start on that Smiley

The service is titled the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts in the Liturgikon.

The wine is consecrated when the presanctified bread and wine and dropped into it before Communion. It is just like when multiple chalices are used. The celebrant pours a little of the consecrated wine into each chalice. That consecrates the wine in the chalice. During the Divine Liturgy, only the Lamb is actually consecrated the particle for the Theotokos, the various ranks of saints and the living and dead are not consecrated. That is why they are poured into the Chalice after Communion. For that reason, the Priest or Deacon takes Communion as usual during the Presanctified Divine Liturgy, also called the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory Dialogus.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2013, 11:07:55 AM »

The wine is consecrated when the presanctified bread and wine and dropped into it before Communion.

IIRC, consecrated wine is being poured on Lamb on Sunday. There is no consecration during the Presanctified.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Tags: Vesperal Liturgies 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.137 seconds with 71 queries.