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Author Topic: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..  (Read 2972 times) Average Rating: 0
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2013, 02:40:30 PM »


Yes, but, this is God acting, not some man in white lab coat.

You cannot possibly be comparing the incarnation of Christ, to invitro fertilization.

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« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2013, 02:42:36 PM »

You cannot possibly be comparing the incarnation of Christ, to invitro fertilization.

Both divide conception and sexual act what seems to be a problem.
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« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2013, 02:47:14 PM »

I don't even know what to say to this.

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« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2013, 02:47:30 PM »



Now we have better means of family planning, we have reproductive technologies, etc., and we also have a more materialistic view of life.  According to this view, children are

an asset
a commodity
a project
a tax break
an attention-grabber
a "life experience"
a status booster, etc.  



The statement that someone posted above...

Quote
IVF offers the chance for a man and a woman to procreate. You need one sperm and one egg. Period. Does it matter where the fertilization happen? I mean, the fertilized egg will be transfered  3-5 days later into the mother's uterus where it will grow how it's supposed to grow, and the fetus will come out ...well...a human being. It's not like IVF will somehow alter our DNA and the end result will be some sort of mutation, an abomination, a monster. No, sir! The baby will be a human being, directly related to the mother and the father. So what's the problem?

...already betrays an acceptance of a non-Orthodox understanding of sexuality, procreation, and the bearing and rearing of children.  Here, a child is not a blessing, it is a commodity, and IVF is a project undertaken to obtain that good.  As long as the supplies come from the spouses and the genetic material is not altered, and the end result is manifestly human, "what's the problem?"  Well, I suppose one is free to look at it that way, but I don't think we can say this is how the Church views it.  Our current theology may need to consider these technologies and adequately address their validity from our particular faith perspective (as opposed to just signing on to RC declarations or leaving it exclusively to a couple to decide as they see fit), but based on what we can say here and now, I think the attempts to justify IVF and related technologies leave much to be desired.    

Ohh...but how do you know what the families who decide to go the IVF route, really feel? You can't possibly generalize like this. In fact, a vast majority are praying to God without ceasing to be blessed with the gift of Life.

And that is my quote...and I don't know where you got the idea that a child is a commodity.
For me, there's nothing more miraculous in this world, than life..how it begins, how it unfolds, how it ends. I can only look at it as a blessing and nothing else.

If I may ask again. Is it a sin to do IVF? And what sin is this exactly?
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« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 02:48:10 PM »

You cannot possibly be comparing the incarnation of Christ, to invitro fertilization.

Both divide conception and sexual act what seems to be a problem.

Christ is true God and true Man.
His Father is God the Father.
His Mother is the Theotokos.

Or are you questioning the Gospel accounts and the mystery of the Holy Incarnation?
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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2013, 02:48:17 PM »



Example of "non-Orthodox understanding of sexuality, procreation, and the bearing and rearing of children" your willful ignorance.
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« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2013, 02:49:12 PM »

The major "sin" is in the fact that you cannot control what happens to the egg/sperm/zygotes.

No matter what Michal says....the labs are not fool proof.  The lab technicians are not all honest.

Some of the "material" will be discarded.  Others will be used for scientific purposes.

Yours may not.  Not all is.  However, you cannot guarantee, without a doubt, that your offspring will not be experimented on or killed in the process.
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« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »

The major "sin" is in the fact that you cannot control what happens to the egg/sperm/zygotes.

No matter what Michal says....the labs are not fool proof.  The lab technicians are not all honest.

Some of the "material" will be discarded.  Others will be used for scientific purposes.

Yours may not.  Not all is.  However, you cannot guarantee, without a doubt, that your offspring will not be experimented on or killed in the process.

Civil law contract?
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« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2013, 02:52:46 PM »


OK...that doesn't stop it from happening.

Good luck catching them at it, and proving it.

Sure, you'll take them to court, and they may be jailed.

However, your children were already victimized.  You cannot undo that.

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« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2013, 02:53:28 PM »



Now we have better means of family planning, we have reproductive technologies, etc., and we also have a more materialistic view of life.  According to this view, children are

an asset
a commodity
a project
a tax break
an attention-grabber
a "life experience"
a status booster, etc.  



The statement that someone posted above...

Quote
IVF offers the chance for a man and a woman to procreate. You need one sperm and one egg. Period. Does it matter where the fertilization happen? I mean, the fertilized egg will be transfered  3-5 days later into the mother's uterus where it will grow how it's supposed to grow, and the fetus will come out ...well...a human being. It's not like IVF will somehow alter our DNA and the end result will be some sort of mutation, an abomination, a monster. No, sir! The baby will be a human being, directly related to the mother and the father. So what's the problem?

...already betrays an acceptance of a non-Orthodox understanding of sexuality, procreation, and the bearing and rearing of children.  Here, a child is not a blessing, it is a commodity, and IVF is a project undertaken to obtain that good.  As long as the supplies come from the spouses and the genetic material is not altered, and the end result is manifestly human, "what's the problem?"  Well, I suppose one is free to look at it that way, but I don't think we can say this is how the Church views it.  Our current theology may need to consider these technologies and adequately address their validity from our particular faith perspective (as opposed to just signing on to RC declarations or leaving it exclusively to a couple to decide as they see fit), but based on what we can say here and now, I think the attempts to justify IVF and related technologies leave much to be desired.    

Ohh...but how do you know what the families who decide to go the IVF route, really feel? You can't possibly generalize like this. In fact, a vast majority are praying to God without ceasing to be blessed with the gift of Life.

For me, there's nothing more miraculous in this world, than life..how it begins, how it unfolds, how it ends. I can only look at it as a blessing and nothing else.

If I may ask again. Is it a sin to do IVF? And what sin is this exactly?


There are some unethical doctors out there.
Recently 30 human beings were born that were genetically modified.
I will see if I can find the link, but many of those children have been found to have a weird genetic illness.
If a person accepts IVF, there is no telling if their doctors are ethical or not.

There are some miracles that women have told me. These women could not conceive, and their doctors recommended that they adopt a child. One of these women went to Greece to venerate the Holy Sash of the Virgin Theotokos. She was blessed by an elder who told her that she would conceive if she prepared herself spiritually through confession and fasting. She did this and conceived fraternal twins without medical intervention.  Then later on, she conceived another child without medical intervention.

People need to trust in God, not in doctors and technology which could harm a baby.
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« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2013, 02:55:17 PM »


OK...that doesn't stop it from happening.

Good luck catching them at it, and proving it.

Sure, you'll take them to court, and they may be jailed.

However, your children were already victimized.  You cannot undo that.



So the problem with in-vitro is clinic can break the agreement, and law, and harm your children.

But this can be a problem with anything. Priesthood, schools, whatever.
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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 02:56:24 PM »

Ohh...but how do you know what the families who decide to go the IVF route, really feel? You can't possibly generalize like this. In fact, a vast majority are praying to God without ceasing to be blessed with the gift of Life.

I don't know about "the vast majority" of couples who go the IVF route, but I do know about the couples I've helped advise regarding this matter, either by their own invitation or that of their priest.  I can't generalise about the majority, but in the cases I'm familiar with, there was more going on than just "wanting to be blessed with the gift of Life".  My suspicion is that the "vast majority" is no different, but perhaps I just got the more "selfish" cases.

Quote
For me, there's nothing more miraculous in this world, than life..how it begins, how it unfolds, how it ends. I can only look at it as a blessing and nothing else.

Oh, I agree.  But this is not about "life" in general, but about a particular manifestation of life and the desire to participate in that manifestation over others.  We need to understand the big picture in order to see how the different "parts" fit.  

Quote
If I may ask again. Is it a sin to do IVF? And what sin is this exactly?

I don't know if I can express myself more clearly than I already did, unless we're working with a different understanding of "sin".  What do you mean by "sin"?  
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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2013, 02:57:50 PM »

The major "sin" is in the fact that you cannot control what happens to the egg/sperm/zygotes.

No matter what Michal says....the labs are not fool proof.  The lab technicians are not all honest.

Some of the "material" will be discarded.  Others will be used for scientific purposes.

Yours may not.  Not all is.  However, you cannot guarantee, without a doubt, that your offspring will not be experimented on or killed in the process.

Civil law contract?

Some doctors have violated civil law contracts. In addition, there are always ways to word a contract so that a doctor can kill and experiment upon unborn babies without informing the parents. Read the fine print prepared by doctors' attorneys.
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« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2013, 02:58:35 PM »

Oh, I agree.  But this is not about "life" in general, but about a particular manifestation of life and the desire to participate in that manifestation over others.  We need to understand the big picture in order to see how the different "parts" fit.  

There is no "others". People who decide for in-vitro have no other choice.

Some doctors have violated civil law contracts. In addition, there are always ways to word a contract so that a doctor can kill and experiment upon unborn babies without informing the parents. Read the fine print prepared by doctor's attorneys.

Priests can rape children. Delegalize priesthood!
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2013, 02:58:46 PM »


OK...that doesn't stop it from happening.

Good luck catching them at it, and proving it.

Sure, you'll take them to court, and they may be jailed.

However, your children were already victimized.  You cannot undo that.



So the problem with in-vitro is clinic can break the agreement, and law, and harm your children.

But this can be a problem with anything. Priesthood, schools, whatever.

No, there's a huge difference.

A priest, a teacher, etc. can molest your kids.  However, they will not be playing with their chromosomal integrity, adding genes, seeing if they can get them to grow an additional liver, arm, head, etc.  Nor will they possibly be implanting them in to strangers, or mixing the eggs with their own sperm and making their own kids.

Yes, crime happens outside the womb....but, it is of a different caliber.
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« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2013, 02:59:38 PM »

but, it is of a different caliber.

Can't say I agree.
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« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »

Oh, I agree.  But this is not about "life" in general, but about a particular manifestation of life and the desire to participate in that manifestation over others.  We need to understand the big picture in order to see how the different "parts" fit.  

There is no "others". People who decide for in-vitro have no other choice.

Some doctors have violated civil law contracts. In addition, there are always ways to word a contract so that a doctor can kill and experiment upon unborn babies without informing the parents. Read the fine print prepared by doctor's attorneys.

Priests can rape children. Delegalize priesthood!

Non sequitur.
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« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2013, 03:01:26 PM »


There is no "others". People who decide for in-vitro have no other choice.


Wrong!  

They have the choice to be satisfied with what they DO have in life.  Children are not a necessity.  If God hasn't allowed them to conceive, so be it.

They could also adopt.  How many needy kids are out there, just waiting to be loved, and we throw them to the curb because we want Johnny to have my red hair and her blue eyes.  Seriously?

They could also spend the time and money that they are not using in raising their own child, to assist orphans, and there are many orphans in the world, in need of assistance.

They could even become foster parents.

Having children does not complete a person.  There is life for childless couples.

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« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2013, 03:01:47 PM »

but, it is of a different caliber.

Can't say I agree.

Doesn't surprise me.
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« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2013, 03:03:49 PM »



No, there's a huge difference.

A priest, a teacher, etc. can molest your kids.  However, they will not be playing with their chromosomal integrity, adding genes, seeing if they can get them to grow an additional liver, arm, head, etc.  Nor will they possibly be implanting them in to strangers, or mixing the eggs with their own sperm and making their own kids.

Yes, crime happens outside the womb....but, it is of a different caliber.


Oh, Lord have mercy!
I haven't read any of this on the IVF forums I've been lurking on.
In fact, I only see hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies.
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« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2013, 03:04:46 PM »

Is this an attempt to create a thread that's even worse than the one about breastfeeding? If so, this is going to be a great succes.
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« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »


Thank you.  I am doing my best to make it so.  Wink

Where's Kerdy?
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« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2013, 03:06:18 PM »

Is this an attempt to create a thread that's even worse than the one about breastfeeding?
No.
This is serious. And very important to me.
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« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2013, 03:06:54 PM »

Oh, I agree.  But this is not about "life" in general, but about a particular manifestation of life and the desire to participate in that manifestation over others.  We need to understand the big picture in order to see how the different "parts" fit.  

There is no "others". People who decide for in-vitro have no other choice.

Sure.
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« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2013, 03:18:37 PM »


They have the choice to be satisfied with what they DO have in life.  Children are not a necessity.  If God hasn't allowed them to conceive, so be it.
True. But they will always feel that void that comes with it. Nobody to follow after me actually hurts me deeply.

Quote
They could also adopt.  
This is not as easy as it sounds. I've wrote about how difficult adoption really is.

Quote
How many needy kids are out there, just waiting to be loved, and we throw them to the curb because we want Johnny to have my red hair and her blue eyes.  Seriously?
People that do this will not make an infertile couple feel better about their incapacity to have babies. It actually hurts even more to not understand why them can't procreate, but others that can will throw away their children. Infertile couples will be glad to welcome in their families any "type" of child God will bless them with.

Quote
They could also spend the time and money that they are not using in raising their own child, to assist orphans, and there are many orphans in the world, in need of assistance.
No amount of donations and help will fill the void and reality that a child will never be part of their family.

Quote
They could even become foster parents.
No easy solution either. Foster children come and go. The separation is described by some as "worse than death", as at the death of a loved one you know where they "went", but as a foster parent you might never hear news about that child ever again.

Quote
Having children does not complete a person.  There is life for childless couples.
I can't agree. Multiple reasons.


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« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2013, 03:22:25 PM »

They could also adopt.  How many needy kids are out there, just waiting to be loved, and we throw them to the curb because we want Johnny to have my red hair and her blue eyes.  Seriously?

I know of several couples who adopted and are happy. I've also heard of some that adopted and ended up with having sex with each other and engaging in crimes due to them being conceived with incest. And there are loads that were refused adoption due to bureaucracy.

Sure.

Right. People refuse to have children the easiest way and spend thousands of dollars because they do not like sex.
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« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2013, 03:22:46 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/13/dr-ben-ramaley-fertility_n_357611.html
Dr. Ben Ramaley: Fertility Doctor Accused Of Using Own Sperm To Artificially Inseminate Woman
The prominent doctor was supposed to artificially inseminate an unidentified woman with her husband's sperm after they first consulted him in 2002. After several attempts, the woman became pregnant and gave birth to twins.  According to court records, the parents were surprised at the "fair complexion" of the children as the woman's husband is African-American  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9193014/British-man-fathered-600-children-at-own-fertility-clinic.html
British man 'fathered 600 children' at own fertility clinic

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/embryonic-cloning-experiment-blasted-by-ethicists-scientists/
Embryonic cloning experiment blasted by ethicists, scientists
Denver, Colo., Oct 8, 2011 / 06:50 am (CNA/EWTN News).- A recent experiment cloning human embryos for potential stem cell use did little to advance a medical breakthrough and violated human life, Catholic experts said in reaction to the news.

There are many other such stories.

However, let us take a look at the other side of this process.  The parents.

Here's a great article.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2309037/I-wish-IVF-invented-Samantha-Brick-says-given-heartache-.html

So when I read that the test-tube baby pioneer, Sir Robert Edwards, had died, I experienced an overwhelming range of emotions. I felt sadness for his family but, to my discomfort and shame, I also felt a jolt of anger towards a man whose work has allowed the medical profession to play God with human life.  Irrational as it might sound to those who have never been through the heartbreak of unsuccessful fertility treatment, I see this eminent professor as unwittingly responsible for the agony I have endured since discovering, four years ago, that my husband and I are unable to conceive a child together naturally.

If IVF didn’t exist, I believe we would have, eventually, got on with our lives.  - THIS!

Instead, we submitted ourselves to the rollercoaster of fertility treatment.
And our world has been on hold, in a terrible emotional limbo, ever since.




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« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2013, 03:27:39 PM »


They have the choice to be satisfied with what they DO have in life.  Children are not a necessity.  If God hasn't allowed them to conceive, so be it.
True. But they will always feel that void that comes with it. Nobody to follow after me actually hurts me deeply.


This is a problem YOU have to deal with.

So, when I was a kid, I wanted to marry Mr. Right, live in a house with a white picket fence, have 2 kids, and live the dream.

As I got older, I figured, one child would suffice.

Well, I got none of that...not even the picket fence.  Should I just call it quits?  Give up on life?  Pout and be unhappy until I die?

That's a choice the person must make.

I choose not to be unhappy, but, to take it as an opportunity to do other things with my life.  I am not held back by husband/children and am in a place in my life where I find I can contribute my talents and skills in other ways.

Life goes on.  We cannot be so attached to a dream that we stop living if that dream isn't achieved.  

This goes specifically against the Second Commandment of God - to not make idols for ourselves.  These desires, are idols, as they take over our lives, thoughts and very beings.  They pull us from God and His teachings, leading us to make our own laws, justify our own actions, in order to bow to the idols of our own making.

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« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2013, 03:37:23 PM »

Why can't infertile couples just accept their lot in life? There are some people--myself included--who would love to be infertile and/or marry an infertile women. I don't like children nor do I care for taking care of them. The fact that every breathing woman has to have children is perhaps my greatest problem with marriage. I already wasted my childhood taking care of my younger siblings, I don't want to waste another 18 years taking care of more children. I'm sick of science always giving the women more ways to screw over their husbands into having to raise children.
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« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2013, 03:51:52 PM »

I haven't read any of this on the IVF forums I've been lurking on.
In fact, I only see hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies.


I don't know anything about abuses - other than the ones I mentioned. But think about it - on an IVF Forum, aren't you likely to see only "hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies"?
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« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »

Sure.

Right. People refuse to have children the easiest way and spend thousands of dollars because they do not like sex.

Do you like refuting the straw men in your head?  Because this has nothing to do with anything I've written.  I responded to your comment with "Sure" because I sensed it was futile even to try explaining it further to you. 
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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2013, 04:07:18 PM »

Where's Kerdy?

 Wink
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2013, 04:20:05 PM »

Why can't infertile couples just accept their lot in life? There are some people--myself included--who would love to be infertile and/or marry an infertile women. I don't like children nor do I care for taking care of them. The fact that every breathing woman has to have children is perhaps my greatest problem with marriage. I already wasted my childhood taking care of my younger siblings, I don't want to waste another 18 years taking care of more children. I'm sick of science always giving the women more ways to screw over their husbands into having to raise children.

Sigh.  Sometimes my friend, you do get what you want and it isn't what you thought it would be.
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2013, 04:42:59 PM »

I haven't read any of this on the IVF forums I've been lurking on.
In fact, I only see hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies.


I don't know anything about abuses - other than the ones I mentioned. But think about it - on an IVF Forum, aren't you likely to see only "hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies"?

Aren't these types of forums highly moderated so that you would only see happy couples and beautiful babies?
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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2013, 04:45:53 PM »

Why can't infertile couples just accept their lot in life? There are some people--myself included--who would love to be infertile and/or marry an infertile women. I don't like children nor do I care for taking care of them. The fact that every breathing woman has to have children is perhaps my greatest problem with marriage. I already wasted my childhood taking care of my younger siblings, I don't want to waste another 18 years taking care of more children. I'm sick of science always giving the women more ways to screw over their husbands into having to raise children.
Some will argue women won't be necessary soon.
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« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »

Some will argue women won't be necessary soon.

What? You can't order pizzas in the States yet?

Just kidding

 Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2013, 04:52:27 PM »

Aren't these types of forums highly moderated so that you would only see happy couples and beautiful babies?

Maybe, on those fora, unhappy couples and babies with challenges = rudeness?  Wink
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2013, 05:08:25 PM »

I haven't read any of this on the IVF forums I've been lurking on.
In fact, I only see hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies.


I don't know anything about abuses - other than the ones I mentioned. But think about it - on an IVF Forum, aren't you likely to see only "hopeful women, happy couples and beautiful babies"?

Aren't these types of forums highly moderated so that you would only see happy couples and beautiful babies?

Not at all.
You can read all about their day to day struggles also. There are posts about bad clinics, poor customer service. Posts about people ready to start IVF and on their first visit with the first blood test find out they are in fact expecting a baby conceived naturally. Some families have one IVF and stop due to it being so expensive. Some families go through multiple failed IVFs and eventually give up. So it's not only happy ending stories.

Just like adoption forums. Some are wonderful success stories, and some are just plain horror stories!
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2013, 05:09:15 PM »

Aren't these types of forums highly moderated so that you would only see happy couples and beautiful babies?

Maybe, on those fora, unhappy couples and babies with challenges = rudeness?  Wink

Certainly. And there was a thread on one of those IVF forums where a couple was upset that they lost all their babies when doctors did selective abortions to "reduce". It backfired. Since so many people were upset, the mods moved that thread into their mod forum. Problem solved, but the truth was compromised.

Then there was the horrific story where a doctor did a selective abortion, but killed the wrong baby. The baby that lived was seriously handicapped. That thread was likewise consigned to the Trash Bin.

Those IVF forums are notorious for their strict moderation to support "selective reduction" aka abortion.
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2013, 05:28:48 PM »

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« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2013, 05:31:02 PM »



Do not remind me! (Shades of the former Panteleimon of HTM.)

That gives me the creeps.
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« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2013, 05:42:10 PM »


They have the choice to be satisfied with what they DO have in life.  Children are not a necessity.  If God hasn't allowed them to conceive, so be it.
True. But they will always feel that void that comes with it. Nobody to follow after me actually hurts me deeply.


This is a problem YOU have to deal with.

So, when I was a kid, I wanted to marry Mr. Right, live in a house with a white picket fence, have 2 kids, and live the dream.

As I got older, I figured, one child would suffice.

Well, I got none of that...not even the picket fence.  Should I just call it quits?  Give up on life?  Pout and be unhappy until I die?

That's a choice the person must make.

I choose not to be unhappy, but, to take it as an opportunity to do other things with my life.  I am not held back by husband/children and am in a place in my life where I find I can contribute my talents and skills in other ways.

Life goes on.  We cannot be so attached to a dream that we stop living if that dream isn't achieved.  

This goes specifically against the Second Commandment of God - to not make idols for ourselves.  These desires, are idols, as they take over our lives, thoughts and very beings.  They pull us from God and His teachings, leading us to make our own laws, justify our own actions, in order to bow to the idols of our own making.



Hmmm...I don't know how to answer this, but I'll attempt.

I, as a newly wed, choose to go ahead and "multiply" . Smiley I did choose to marry, and with that comes other desires as well...like the one to have a child.
Upon multiple failed attempts (it's not about me, I haven't even been married one month yet, so this is just theoretically speaking) , am I to give up and find something better to do with my married life?
I'm sure some people (like James over here) will gladly say "yes, move on with your life and find something better to do". But some people actually DO want children. And they do not want them because they want to somehow fulfill their selfishness, but they actually genuinely want children. You can't compare this desire to anything else in the world. Like I said, it's not like you want a better car, or a bigger house. It's not like you want to harm somebody, or take away something that belongs to someone else. It's not an idol that you want to worship. You're not cheating on your husband. You're not being disrespectful to your parents. It has nothing to do with your neighbor. You just want a child. Sure. It comes a moment in your life when you might want to refocus that energy, and you might need to find another mission, but don't you want to try everything humanly possible to have a child? I would.

I'm not going against the teaching of the Church. I trust the Church. I was just trying to understand the reasoning behind the IVF being frowned upon. (besides horror stories that come with anything in life frankly)
Not quite sure the Fathers knew about IVF back then, so I can't go and read what they said about it.


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« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2013, 05:50:01 PM »


They have the choice to be satisfied with what they DO have in life.  Children are not a necessity.  If God hasn't allowed them to conceive, so be it.
True. But they will always feel that void that comes with it. Nobody to follow after me actually hurts me deeply.


This is a problem YOU have to deal with.

So, when I was a kid, I wanted to marry Mr. Right, live in a house with a white picket fence, have 2 kids, and live the dream.

As I got older, I figured, one child would suffice.

Well, I got none of that...not even the picket fence.  Should I just call it quits?  Give up on life?  Pout and be unhappy until I die?

That's a choice the person must make.

I choose not to be unhappy, but, to take it as an opportunity to do other things with my life.  I am not held back by husband/children and am in a place in my life where I find I can contribute my talents and skills in other ways.

Life goes on.  We cannot be so attached to a dream that we stop living if that dream isn't achieved.  

This goes specifically against the Second Commandment of God - to not make idols for ourselves.  These desires, are idols, as they take over our lives, thoughts and very beings.  They pull us from God and His teachings, leading us to make our own laws, justify our own actions, in order to bow to the idols of our own making.



Hmmm...I don't know how to answer this, but I'll attempt.

I, as a newly wed, choose to go ahead and "multiply" . Smiley I did choose to marry, and with that comes other desires as well...like the one to have a child.
Upon multiple failed attempts (it's not about me, I haven't even been married one month yet, so this is just theoretically speaking) , am I to give up and find something better to do with my married life?
I'm sure some people (like James over here) will gladly say "yes, move on with your life and find something better to do". But some people actually DO want children. And they do not want them because they want to somehow fulfill their selfishness, but they actually genuinely want children. You can't compare this desire to anything else in the world. Like I said, it's not like you want a better car, or a bigger house. It's not like you want to harm somebody, or take away something that belongs to someone else. It's not an idol that you want to worship. You're not cheating on your husband. You're not being disrespectful to your parents. It has nothing to do with your neighbor. You just want a child. Sure. It comes a moment in your life when you might want to refocus that energy, and you might need to find another mission, but don't you want to try everything humanly possible to have a child? I would.

I'm not going against the teaching of the Church. I trust the Church. I was just trying to understand the reasoning behind the IVF being frowned upon. (besides horror stories that come with anything in life frankly)
Not quite sure the Fathers knew about IVF back then, so I can't go and read what they said about it.


One of my relatives went to an IVF clinic and spent thousands of dollars trying to get pregnant. No success.

Then they went to a gynaecologist who performed a hormone test and told this 22 year old that she was going through menopause early, accept the fact, and adopt. Not satisfied, this young couple went to see an endocrinologist who did further tests and discovered that she has low thyroid. Upon being placed on thyroid replacement therapy, she has successfully borne two children.

Paula, please stop worrying. Instead, trust in God. Stress alone can cause infertility.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:51:15 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2013, 06:06:57 PM »

A couple anecdotal horror stories is not a good reason to form a basis of opinion on anything. I suspect if you would look at actual data, you would probably see that most IVF works out just fine for the couple.  Regardless of whether it does or does not has no bearing on it's moral status.

I don't think she is worrying.  As she stated numerous times, she asked a question for discussion purposes.
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« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2013, 06:27:32 PM »

A couple anecdotal horror stories is not a good reason to form a basis of opinion on anything. I suspect if you would look at actual data, you would probably see that most IVF works out just fine for the couple.  Regardless of whether it does or does not has no bearing on it's moral status.

I don't think she is worrying.  As she stated numerous times, she asked a question for discussion purposes.

The whole idea of IVF is unethical. When you add "selective reduction" aka the deliberate abortion of "excess" human beings inside a woman's womb, that is murder.
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