Author Topic: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..  (Read 4817 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #180 on: October 27, 2013, 10:01:24 AM »


hmmm
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #181 on: October 27, 2013, 01:11:57 PM »
What seems silly to me is when people believe that this spiritually fallen physical realm is what God intended...

If one describes the physical world as "spiritually fallen", one can only conclude that this was clearly not the will of God.  God created everything and declared it "good", even "very good". 

But it is precisely that "good", that "very good" world which God created "physical": stars, planets, skies, earth, waters, fish, birds, beasts, and yes, humans with genitals.

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...that our physiology is meant to function in a non-deified state.

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Luke 22

14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
   
Quote
Luke 24

36 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. 37 But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

Quote
Yet, we believe that humanity and the universe was meant to function in direct communion with God through His Grace/Uncreated energies which are separate from creation. In other words, it's not just that our actions have become subject to evil through the fall, but that we lost our real ontology; without God's Grace, deification, man is not what he is meant to be. It's not very helpful to speculate how our organs would function in a deified state because we know that first and foremost we need God to personally restore us to that state and give us His own knowledge about Himself and us. So, firstly, we are required to repent and live an entirely new life in Christ as He taught and then we can talk about how stuff really works.

While affirming that it's not helpful to speculate on the deified state of human physiology, people who think/believe in this way go toward another extreme: they feel free to speculate on just how fallen human physiology is, seeking to separate it from God's creation.  Why make our problem God's problem? 

Even after humanity suffered the Fall, God did not declare the things and people he made "bad" or "very bad", undoing his declarations in Gn 1.  Sickness and death entered the world through sin, but they do not change the fundamental goodness of man as God created him, because he is created, male and female, in the image and likeness of God (i.e., Christ).  Not only do we come to understand what "image" and "likeness" mean in light of Christ, but we also understand what "male" and "female" (i.e., sexes, with all their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual differences and complementarities) mean through him.     

I can agree with everything you said about the need for repentance, divine grace, etc., but I cannot agree with the spiritualising tendency that strips humanity of humanity in order to become like God.  It's anti-incarnational and a form of spiritual fornication. 
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #182 on: October 27, 2013, 11:13:13 PM »
What seems silly to me is when people believe that this spiritually fallen physical realm is what God intended...

If one describes the physical world as "spiritually fallen", one can only conclude that this was clearly not the will of God.  God created everything and declared it "good", even "very good". 

But it is precisely that "good", that "very good" world which God created "physical": stars, planets, skies, earth, waters, fish, birds, beasts, and yes, humans with genitals.

Quote
...that our physiology is meant to function in a non-deified state.

Quote
Luke 22

14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
   
Quote
Luke 24

36 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them. 37 But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

Quote
Yet, we believe that humanity and the universe was meant to function in direct communion with God through His Grace/Uncreated energies which are separate from creation. In other words, it's not just that our actions have become subject to evil through the fall, but that we lost our real ontology; without God's Grace, deification, man is not what he is meant to be. It's not very helpful to speculate how our organs would function in a deified state because we know that first and foremost we need God to personally restore us to that state and give us His own knowledge about Himself and us. So, firstly, we are required to repent and live an entirely new life in Christ as He taught and then we can talk about how stuff really works.

While affirming that it's not helpful to speculate on the deified state of human physiology, people who think/believe in this way go toward another extreme: they feel free to speculate on just how fallen human physiology is, seeking to separate it from God's creation.  Why make our problem God's problem? 

Even after humanity suffered the Fall, God did not declare the things and people he made "bad" or "very bad", undoing his declarations in Gn 1.  Sickness and death entered the world through sin, but they do not change the fundamental goodness of man as God created him, because he is created, male and female, in the image and likeness of God (i.e., Christ).  Not only do we come to understand what "image" and "likeness" mean in light of Christ, but we also understand what "male" and "female" (i.e., sexes, with all their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual differences and complementarities) mean through him.     

I can agree with everything you said about the need for repentance, divine grace, etc., but I cannot agree with the spiritualising tendency that strips humanity of humanity in order to become like God.  It's anti-incarnational and a form of spiritual fornication. 

This is painful... I did not say the physical is wrong, but the physical without the spiritual, without God's Grace is not the true physical, but a fallen one, a dead one. Sorry, no energy for the other part of your post.

Offline Dpaula

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #183 on: November 07, 2013, 11:33:38 AM »
I had to come back to this thread, as I am slowly coming to terms with what IVF "really" means and what the Church thinks about it.

I've realized Christians know so little about it, and blinded by the desire to have a child are willing to accept any methods that will give them that. They will then come to defend this procedures and proclaim them to be "the work of God" when they are clearly not.

My turning point was when one of the people posting on another forum said "Jesus was the first IVF child. God put sperm in Mary's eggs and created Jesus". Other people agreed or found it funny. I didn't. I've realized not only how little Christians know about IVF, but how Christians don't know anything about Christ Himself.

I decided to trust the Church on this matter.

Forgive me for being aggressive in my previous posts.
Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #184 on: November 07, 2013, 11:35:42 AM »


You weren't aggressive.  You were searching for the truth.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #185 on: November 07, 2013, 12:09:20 PM »
I've come to realize that issues such as IVF are not so apparent immediately and most of us don't see the depth of things. So, no need to feel bad about it because it's hard stuff, but at the same time it's probably safer to not jump to conclusions or actions we don't fully understand.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #186 on: November 07, 2013, 12:16:49 PM »
I've realized Christians know so little about it, and blinded by the desire to have a child are willing to accept any methods that will give them that. They will then come to defend this procedures and proclaim them to be "the work of God" when they are clearly not.

No biggie. Because really, this is what we all do when it comes to our own sins, wants and desires. We are blinded by the desire to do whatever, and often it can be what appears to be good or at least morally neutral. Then we rationalize so that we can have/do what we want.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #187 on: November 07, 2013, 01:02:10 PM »
I've come to realize that issues such as IVF are not so apparent immediately and most of us don't see the depth of things. So, no need to feel bad about it because it's hard stuff, but at the same time it's probably safer to not jump to conclusions or actions we don't fully understand.

+1
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..
« Reply #188 on: November 19, 2013, 01:09:05 AM »
No they don't. Being fruitful and multiplying doesn't mean "have sex", but is meant in a spiritual way. All The Fathers and many saints speak about this.

Have you used the bathroom lately? Emptying out urine is not that part of your body's only function  ;) I think if you accept that God created humanity, then you have to accept that--for better or for worse--He gave us a real sexuality with real sexual organs. Unless of course the pre-Fall man lacked such a thing, but, that seems pretty silly if you ask me.

What seems silly to me is when people believe that this spiritually fallen physical realm is what God intended, that our physiology is meant to function in a non-deified state.

you are aware that Lucifer and the rest of the fallen angels fell in the spiritual realm, no?

Yet, we believe that humanity and the universe was meant to function in direct communion with God through His Grace/Uncreated energies which are separate from creation.
what do you mean exactly by "separate"?
In other words, it's not just that our actions have become subject to evil through the fall, but that we lost our real ontology; without God's Grace, deification, man is not what he is meant to be. It's not very helpful to speculate how our organs would function in a deified state
and yet you have speculated thereon.
because we know that first and foremost we need God to personally restore us to that state and give us His own knowledge about Himself and us. So, firstly, we are required to repent and live an entirely new life in Christ as He taught and then we can talk about how stuff really works.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth