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Author Topic: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..  (Read 3452 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2013, 11:10:14 AM »

I truly don't understand how can you compare having your own children with having somebody else's children. Sure you will develop love for that adopted child. It will grow and you will make sure that child is well taken care of. But you can't compare the two. The woman carries in her own body a child for 9 months. The relationship between the fertilized egg and the woman forms instantly and develops and grows and nobody that is not a Mom can comprehend this feeling. And nobody can possibly ask from somebody to just give up on the dream to have their own children and just go ahead and adopt because there are so many children ready "to be saved".
I just simply don't agree. Not from the point of view of a woman ready to bear children.

Eeek!  Shocked 

Don't tell parents of an adopted child that it is not their own child or that it is someone else's child.  It will not bode well for your physical health.
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« Reply #136 on: October 24, 2013, 11:21:46 AM »

I'm not, don't worry.
But since everybody here got so technical about IVF is and does, we can go ahead and get technical with adoptions also.
I don't think they are the perfect solution for a couple that wants children.
Then all married couple out there should go ahead and adopt and forget about having their own children.
There are so many children already in the world, why make more?!?!?!?
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« Reply #137 on: October 24, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »


Adoption is risky, as well.  In addition to the costs and paperwork and long wait, you do not know what you are getting in to.  The parents will not know the history of the child, any chromosomal or personality issues that might come to surface in the future, etc.

However, the difference between IVF and adoption, is that with IVF there is a chance of killing life, and with adoption, it is saving a life.

DPaula, don't stress.  I think you said you've only been married a short while.  Don't stress or put pressure on yourself, as that doesn't help matters.

Relax, pray, enjoy each other's company and wait for the miracle to happen!  Wink
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« Reply #138 on: October 24, 2013, 11:35:06 AM »

I don't mean to disparage adoption, certainly it's an honorable course, but how could it ever compare to the fruit of one's own flesh?

There's something visceral about it, which all the love in the world cannot replace. After all, we may be co-heirs with Christ, but the Son will always be the Father's only-begotten.
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« Reply #139 on: October 24, 2013, 11:39:19 AM »

I truly don't understand how can you compare having your own children with having somebody else's children. Sure you will develop love for that adopted child. It will grow and you will make sure that child is well taken care of. But you can't compare the two. The woman carries in her own body a child for 9 months. The relationship between the fertilized egg and the woman forms instantly and develops and grows and nobody that is not a Mom can comprehend this feeling. And nobody can possibly ask from somebody to just give up on the dream to have their own children and just go ahead and adopt because there are so many children ready "to be saved".
I just simply don't agree. Not from the point of view of a woman ready to bear children.

Talk to some adoptive parents and ask them whether or not they love their children, just like they love their "real" children. Or better yet, tell them it can't compare to a "real" mother's or father's love. Only you might want to wear kevlar and be ready to duck.
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« Reply #140 on: October 24, 2013, 11:47:38 AM »

I truly don't understand how can you compare having your own children with having somebody else's children.

Let us admit that this attitude is fundamental in understanding why couples having trouble conceiving "normally" seek out these reproductive technologies of questionable ethical and moral value rather than adopting, fostering, etc.  It's the difference between MY children and SOMEBODY ELSE'S children.  I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing, and it's definitely about me. 

Because this is such a powerful, fundamental motivation, I think it requires open and honest introspection and reflection of each individual as well as the couple as a couple with mature spiritual guidance, before considering "dangerous" practices. 
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« Reply #141 on: October 24, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »

My wife and I are actually in the process of considering adoption.  We have two children of our own right now and if we chose, we could probably pop out a bunch more as she got pregnant the first month we were trying on each of the previous two. We both feel that there are so many underprivileged kids out there that could use a good family, that it would be better to do that rather than birthing more.  I cannot imagine going through the adoption process and not loving that child just as much as my two kids now.  From what I have heard from other parents with adopted children, they do not see that child any differently than children they have birthed.  Obviously there are exceptions, but that has been the general impression I have gotten.
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« Reply #142 on: October 24, 2013, 11:50:28 AM »

I don't mean to disparage adoption, certainly it's an honorable course, but how could it ever compare to the fruit of one's own flesh?



My question exactly!
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« Reply #143 on: October 24, 2013, 11:51:50 AM »

My wife and I are actually in the process of considering adoption.  We have two children of our own right now and if we chose, we could probably pop out a bunch more as she got pregnant the first month we were trying on each of the previous two. We both feel that there are so many underprivileged kids out there that could use a good family, that it would be better to do that rather than birthing more.  I cannot imagine going through the adoption process and not loving that child just as much as my two kids now.  From what I have heard from other parents with adopted children, they do not see that child any differently than children they have birthed.  Obviously there are exceptions, but that has been the general impression I have gotten.

Did you watch the documentary I posted?
It opened my eyes quite a bit about "saving kids"
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« Reply #144 on: October 24, 2013, 11:57:41 AM »

I don't mean to disparage adoption, certainly it's an honorable course, but how could it ever compare to the fruit of one's own flesh?



My question exactly!

Maybe it is because I'm a dad and not the mom, but I did NOT feel attached to my children for probably the first 6 months of their lives.  Both my wife and I were grumpy, sleep deprived and short tempered.  If I could have pushed that baby right back up inside her, I would have. As you spend time with the child and see them develop and grow attached to you, that bond forms.  There are MANY stories of women (and men) who want nothing to do with their baby when it comes out.  It is a very difficult emotional time. Don't get sucked into the stupid TV shows like "Bringing Home Baby".  That isn't real life. I would give my life for my kids, but it isn't because part of them is my sperm. It is because I have invested so much time, emotion and effort into their lives.  The same thing goes for adopted children as well.
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« Reply #145 on: October 24, 2013, 11:57:53 AM »

I don't mean to disparage adoption, certainly it's an honorable course, but how could it ever compare to the fruit of one's own flesh?

There's something visceral about it, which all the love in the world cannot replace. After all, we may be co-heirs with Christ, but the Son will always be the Father's only-begotten.

Higher than the love of the flesh is the love of The Gospel. The love of the flesh is neither towards nor against salvation, while the love of The Gospel is the only one that saves. The love of The Gospel sees everybody as their neighbor or brother/sister in Christ. Children do not belong to you, but are in the image and likeness of God and they are supposed to be given to God. You are only responsible for giving birth and raising them in the fear of The Lord. Yet, if you cannot give birth to children, there are other ways you can be a parent, even in spiritual ways. Ultimately, if you cannot be a parent for whatever reason, it's best to stay away. You tell God you don't fell capable and ask for His guidance. It's better than to require technological methods or to have children in order to own them and stuff like that. Let's make it clear again, people are called to be parents, no to "have children". There is a difference, and we all know what we will be judged for. Same we will be judged for anything that we do against the established order of God. So, we definitely need to listen to our conscience.
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« Reply #146 on: October 24, 2013, 12:06:37 PM »

My wife and I are actually in the process of considering adoption.  We have two children of our own right now and if we chose, we could probably pop out a bunch more as she got pregnant the first month we were trying on each of the previous two. We both feel that there are so many underprivileged kids out there that could use a good family, that it would be better to do that rather than birthing more.  I cannot imagine going through the adoption process and not loving that child just as much as my two kids now.  From what I have heard from other parents with adopted children, they do not see that child any differently than children they have birthed.  Obviously there are exceptions, but that has been the general impression I have gotten.

Did you watch the documentary I posted?
It opened my eyes quite a bit about "saving kids"
I have not seen it, but I have heard about it.  There are big cultural issues if adopting from overseas, but that isn't even necessary.  Just about every county in every state in the country has long lists of kids looking for forever homes. That is the big problem with stories like this.  Producers show one anecdote and people base life choices on such things. I work in the legal profession.  I could post pics of here about dead kids in auto accidents and tell you heartbreaking stories, but that isn't a good reason not to own a car, it is good to be cautious, but don't make decisions on an emotional 1 hour PBS special.

I hope you don't feel that I'm picking on you.  I understand your feelings.  When my wife and I were newlyweds, we couldn't imagine the idea of adopting.  There is definitely an inate desire in people to reproduce.  I would, however, STRONGLY caution everyone not to just rule it out as an option just because you feel it might not "be for you"
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« Reply #147 on: October 24, 2013, 12:15:35 PM »

I truly don't understand how can you compare having your own children with having somebody else's children.

Let us admit that this attitude is fundamental in understanding why couples having trouble conceiving "normally" seek out these reproductive technologies of questionable ethical and moral value rather than adopting, fostering, etc.  It's the difference between MY children and SOMEBODY ELSE'S children.  I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing, and it's definitely about me. 

Because this is such a powerful, fundamental motivation, I think it requires open and honest introspection and reflection of each individual as well as the couple as a couple with mature spiritual guidance, before considering "dangerous" practices. 

I really don't agree. You and others make wanting children sound so bad, when in fact isn't.
 And so far there was no reasonable reason given as to why IVF is bad.
I'm not quite sure that what's been said here is the official position of the Church regarding this matter.
It sounds more like personal opinions. Which is ok. But don't start blaming people for wanting children and push them to adopt. This is so wrong! You never know what somebody is going through, you never know their life stories, so you can't just come up here and impose rules on something not even the Church has a clear understanding of...at least not yet.
I'm kinda sorry I started this thread. Where I wanted to understand the reasoning behind IVF being frowned upon, I found judgements and accusations of all sorts. Sad, really!


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« Reply #148 on: October 24, 2013, 12:19:43 PM »

Maybe it is because I'm a dad

Impressive. Didn't knew that. For some reason I can't imagine you as dad  Smiley

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« Reply #149 on: October 24, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »

I truly don't understand how can you compare having your own children with having somebody else's children.

Let us admit that this attitude is fundamental in understanding why couples having trouble conceiving "normally" seek out these reproductive technologies of questionable ethical and moral value rather than adopting, fostering, etc.  It's the difference between MY children and SOMEBODY ELSE'S children.  I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing, and it's definitely about me.  

Because this is such a powerful, fundamental motivation, I think it requires open and honest introspection and reflection of each individual as well as the couple as a couple with mature spiritual guidance, before considering "dangerous" practices.  

I really don't agree. You and others make wanting children sound so bad, when in fact isn't.
 And so far there was no reasonable reason given as to why IVF is bad.
I'm not quite sure that what's been said here is the official position of the Church regarding this matter.
It sounds more like personal opinions. Which is ok. But don't start blaming people for wanting children and push them to adopt. This is so wrong! You never know what somebody is going through, you never know their life stories, so you can't just come up here and impose rules on something not even the Church has a clear understanding of...at least not yet.
I'm kinda sorry I started this thread. Where I wanted to understand the reasoning behind IVF being frowned upon, I found judgements and accusations of all sorts. Sad, really!




It's not sad, it's happy from my perspective because The Church supports everything that is beneficial for the soul and preserves the integrity and dignity of humanity and life in general. God will provide ways for us, even if it sounds impossible to us to remain within the frames of normality. Asking if IVF is right or wrong is not a scientific or philosophical question and definitely not a matter of personal preference. It is best to weigh things like these from above, from a spiritual perspective. It is definitely an important ethical problem that we would turn to God for an answer, and not matter of offering superficial arguments or personal preferences.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2013, 12:26:05 PM »

Maybe it is because I'm a dad

Impressive. Didn't knew that. For some reason I can't imagine you as dad  Smiley


I have two girls.  You should see me when I'm dressed up in full Disney princess regalia.  I would make Ru Paul jealous.
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« Reply #151 on: October 24, 2013, 12:27:25 PM »

Maybe it is because I'm a dad

Impressive. Didn't knew that. For some reason I can't imagine you as dad  Smiley


I have two girls.  You should see me when I'm dressed up in full Disney princess regalia.  I would make Ru Paul jealous.

LOL. Don't worry, I won't judge you. One day I went to school in a little pink dress.
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« Reply #152 on: October 24, 2013, 12:28:19 PM »

Maybe it is because I'm a dad

Impressive. Didn't knew that. For some reason I can't imagine you as dad  Smiley


I have two girls.  You should see me when I'm dressed up in full Disney princess regalia.  I would make Ru Paul jealous.

LOL. Don't worry, I won't judge you. One day I went to school in a little pink dress.
See?  you are ready for daughters already.  Wink
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« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2013, 12:59:53 PM »

I really don't agree. You and others make wanting children sound so bad, when in fact isn't.

I'm sorry.  Look, we don't know each other in real life, so for all you know I could be some nutjob on the internet.  You have every right to think so.  

But, for whatever it's worth, believe me: I don't think wanting your own children is bad at all.  I love kids: I love playing with them, I love talking to them, I enjoy trying to teach them things and learning from them, I relish chances to help other people (friends, family) with their kids, and I hope for my own.  But I'm currently in a place in my life where I'm certain I won't have my own children for several years, and honestly I don't know if I ever will have even one.  If I spend any significant length of time reflecting on that, it's not unusual for me to weep.  I'm not just saying that, either, whether anyone here believes it or not.  

But even with such strong feelings on the matter, I don't know if I can justify "any means" of fulfilling that desire of mine.  Based on what I know about reproductive technologies like IVF as they currently stand and my understanding of Orthodox Christian theology, I don't know that I could justify that particular means.  Certainly, some objections would have to be resolved unequivocally, but even after that I'd have to ask if this is one of those things that, to paraphrase St Paul, may be lawful but may not be helpful.  

I'm aware that people who feel so strongly about something and encounter increasing desperation in not attaining it may decide to compromise on values they would otherwise uphold as general principles in order to make an exception for themselves and get what they want.  I know that because I do it all the time, and then, if I'm honest, I have to confess it because it's sinful, however big or small.  I try not to judge people for making these compromises because I've done it and done it big time.  But at the same time, I can't say that it's entirely justified.  Once, a priest told me in confession, "Don't sin: but if you have to sin, at least remember that it is a sin".  It sounds scandalous, but I think his point was that we should at least know that something is wrong when we choose to do it, because once we start to confuse error for truth, we're really screwed.        

By no means am I saying that having your own kids is a bad thing to want.  But there are so many issues to wrestle with in these cases.  The couple who is eager to have their own kids and cannot do so "normally" focus on that issue and how to resolve it, they're not necessarily thinking of anything else but that.  And that's why I said they need to reflect individually, as a married couple, and also with mature spiritual guidance and support of family/friends, not just with doctors and technicians.  These situations are more multifaceted than people within them can appreciate, and having "objective" counsel is helpful and, IMO, necessary.  

Quote
You never know what somebody is going through, you never know their life stories, so you can't just come up here and impose rules on something not even the Church has a clear understanding of...at least not yet.

I don't know if I'd agree that we're imposing rules on something that the Church doesn't yet have a clear understanding about.  Speaking for myself, what I'm doing is pointing out that, based on what we do know, there are enough concerns and red flags about the practice that it would be better not to do it.  In other words, maybe the practice can be done in a better way, but as it stands right now, it's not really morally neutral.  And if it's not morally neutral or beneficial, what right do I have to say that someone should just go ahead and do it because the Church hasn't made up its mind yet?      
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« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:33 PM »

It's only the modern obsession with sex that cause many to want to modernize the teachings of The Church. To each, their own.

You obviously haven't seen old confession manuals if you believe that. (The most popular one among Greeks, Amartolon Sotiria, dates from the late 1500s.)

Yet, the modern obsession has reached, not paroxysm (that was before), but normality.

Who are you talking about here? Because I do agree with you. The world is obsessed with sex. BUT.....don't take it out on the married couples who want to raise children. There's nothing wrong with wanting babies. I've asked you before. Do you think wanting children is a bad thing?

I am not forcing anybody to accept my views. My job is only to offer them in all their honesty and perhaps mention my sources for them. It's anybody's choice if they want to investigate what I say and apply it in their lives. So, I much less want to argue about them.

Ok...but you can't expect people to agree with you, not even understand what you are saying. In your opinion all of us should stop having sex with each other and practice divine eros. Not only I don't see how the entire world will get to that point (I mean we are talking about His Grace here...it's a highest nature a human can reach), but when it WILL happen...I think it will be the end of the world. Literally.

Like I said, I don't expect anything. It's your choice if you agree. Mine if I agree with you.  I never said sex doesn't have it's place in this world.
A latrine you mean?
But, it is also a responsibility and we are also called to progress along the spiritual axis, to return to our initial state from which we fell.
Our initial state: "God made man in the Image of God....male and female He made them."
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« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:33 PM »

I believe the main issue with IVF revolves around what happens in the lab with the egg/sperm/zygote.

If there is even the slightest chance that these may be abused in some way, then the whole process is negated.

Neither husband, nor wife, have control over their reproductive material once it has left their bodies.  The woman truly doesn't know how many eggs have been harvested, nor what has been done with them.  Neither does the husband know what his sperm will be used to fertilize.

As for the zygotes, well, it stands to reason that they "store" the "extra" to be used if the first attempt of implantation fails.  However, if they implant 8 zygotes, and all 8 take hold....what now?
Octomom answered the question for us.  But then the number of embryos and the method they were implanted wasn't the first problem with her situation.

Now we have a critical pregnancy that often results in the loss of fetuses because of overcrowding, etc.

Furthermore, can the couple actually support 8 children of the exact same age, and give them the upbringing they deserve?  

At this time many parents choose to abort a certain number of the embryos.

What of the zygotes that are still in deep freeze?  Technically, as stated above, they ought to be implanted at a future date.  Well, what if the mother is already in her 40's, and implanting will most likely not be successful in the future, without much added hormone therapy, which in itself is questionable, because of the harm it causes the mother's body?
It is, but is already done with women conceiving the old fashioned way.

What if, while the little innocents, are lying in a freezer somewhere, the new parents struggling with raising 8 kids, decide they cannot possible handle any more?  What if due to these struggles, the couple divorces?

What's to become of the 5 additional zygotes in the freezer?  Buried before even living?  Is that fair to those 5 individuals?

This is a very complicated process, with many, many things to take in to account.  

Unfortunately, most couples, blinded by their desire to procreate, never think about any of these possibilities, or often don't think of a zygote as living, while Joey, Suzy, Olga, Mike, and Sam lye freezing in a synthetic container next to Johnny, and James.

When all these possible abuses are contemplated, which in all honesty cannot be controlled by the couple, it seems like other avenues ought to be explored - adoption, foster care, etc.

I completely understand the pain and the yearning of the married couple to have children.  However, one must consider the fate of all those children, not just the lucky one or two who actually get born to see the light of day.

My prayers for all couples who find themselves in this situation.
It is complicated.  To be honest, I don't think much thought has been given to it because a) the world doesn't care about morality and b) those in with some sort of authority in the Church who have expressed an opinion have been misinformed.  In a moral vacuum, all sorts of things happen.

That all embryos conceived IVF must be implanted has to be taken into account.  The world doesn't.  Any thought on the viability and chances of IVF embryos must be seen in the context that about half of all conceived children miscarry, the majority before the woman even knows she is pregnant.  The Church hasn't as far as I have seen.
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« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:33 PM »

Do you say there would be no procreation in Eden? What?

You mean before the fall? No, Adam and Eve lived in state of Grace, like the angels. God was going to multiply our race in ways similar to the way He made Eve by filling Adam's rib.
Gen 1, 28 and 2, 24 disagree with you.

No they don't. Being fruitful and multiplying doesn't mean "have sex", but is meant in a spiritual way. All The Fathers and many saints speak about this. It's only the modern obsession with sex that cause many to want to modernize the teachings of The Church. To each, their own.

Not that this is the thread in which to pursue this tangent seriously, but LOL.  Those stupid Hebrews and their primitive, tribal views, it's a wonder God chose them.  We thank God that Greek philosophy saved us from the pitfalls of enjoying sex.    
Spot on as usual.
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« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2013, 02:55:49 PM »

After all, we may be co-heirs with Christ, but the Son will always be the Father's only-begotten.
In Christ, both men and women can be exalted to the status of only begotten son, without being homoousion to Patri.

I don't mean to disparage adoption, certainly it's an honorable course, but how could it ever compare to the fruit of one's own flesh?
Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
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« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2013, 03:15:03 PM »


That all embryos conceived IVF must be implanted has to be taken into account.  The world doesn't.  Any thought on the viability and chances of IVF embryos must be seen in the context that about half of all conceived children miscarry, the majority before the woman even knows she is pregnant.  The Church hasn't as far as I have seen.

Yes, but, a miscarriage is beyond human control, and not intentional.

The destruction of zygotes, or experimentation on them, is intentional.
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« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2013, 03:31:59 PM »

I really don't agree. You and others make wanting children sound so bad, when in fact isn't.
I'm really pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that. So that's just a straw man.

 
Quote
And so far there was no reasonable reason given as to why IVF is bad.
I'm not quite sure that what's been said here is the official position of the Church regarding this matter.
Actually, they have. In great detail. Liza (I think) linked a paper from the Church of Greece and someone else from the GOA website.

Quote
It sounds more like personal opinions. Which is ok. But don't start blaming people for wanting children and push them to adopt.
Seriously? Have you even read what people have posted? You asked a question - people answered. You didn't like the answers or the answers didn't agree with your own personal opinions.

Quote
Sad, really!

Now there, you and I agree. It is sad that you asked a question, people answered with both personal opinions, facts and the Church's position. You didn't like what you heard, so you rejected it.



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« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2013, 03:39:28 PM »

Do you say there would be no procreation in Eden? What?

You mean before the fall? No, Adam and Eve lived in state of Grace, like the angels. God was going to multiply our race in ways similar to the way He made Eve by filling Adam's rib.
Gen 1, 28 and 2, 24 disagree with you.

No they don't. Being fruitful and multiplying doesn't mean "have sex", but is meant in a spiritual way. All The Fathers and many saints speak about this. It's only the modern obsession with sex that cause many to want to modernize the teachings of The Church. To each, their own.
I think I figured out your major problem. Put down the Fathers and Theologians.

Return back to the Scriptures.
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« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2013, 03:43:37 PM »

BTW that was directed at you generally speaking from posts elsewhere, I've seen the same thing from you.

Anytime someone says "Well the Fathers/theologians say..." I stop listening.
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« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2013, 04:01:45 PM »

BTW that was directed at you generally speaking from posts elsewhere, I've seen the same thing from you.

Anytime someone says "Well the Fathers/theologians say..." I stop listening.

That's just as ill-advised as ignoring Scripture. 
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« Reply #163 on: October 24, 2013, 04:04:56 PM »

BTW that was directed at you generally speaking from posts elsewhere, I've seen the same thing from you.

Anytime someone says "Well the Fathers/theologians say..." I stop listening.

That's just as ill-advised as ignoring Scripture. 
"The bible says" is another way to lose someone's attention.
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« Reply #164 on: October 24, 2013, 04:05:51 PM »

I would prefer to actually see what the fathers say as opposed to liberal paraphrases.

As the fathers/theologians say: Putting poo in the food makes it stink.

Or something like that.
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« Reply #165 on: October 24, 2013, 04:06:37 PM »

I would prefer to actually see what the fathers say as opposed to liberal paraphrases.

As the fathers/theologians say: Putting poo in the food makes it stink.

Or something like that.

IVF didn't exist back in the days of the Fathers.
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« Reply #166 on: October 24, 2013, 04:08:05 PM »

I would prefer to actually see what the fathers say as opposed to liberal paraphrases.

As the fathers/theologians say: Putting poo in the food makes it stink.

Or something like that.

IVF didn't exist back in the days of the Fathers.
Keep up man!  We are arguing about if sex is bad or not now.
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« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2013, 04:11:55 PM »

Do you say there would be no procreation in Eden? What?

You mean before the fall? No, Adam and Eve lived in state of Grace, like the angels. God was going to multiply our race in ways similar to the way He made Eve by filling Adam's rib.

What would be the point of sexual organs and, indeed, different sexes then? Or would you claim that those things are results of the Fall?

What a world it would be if Man consisted entirely of sexless beings. Just imagine that sweet, sweet mitotic action!
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« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2013, 04:13:32 PM »

Sex organs are a result of the fall so that Eve could kick Adam in the balls for screwing up the whole fruit thing.
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« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2013, 04:16:54 PM »

Sex organs are a result of the fall so that Eve could kick Adam in the balls for screwing up the whole fruit thing.

Nope.  Tongue

Anyway, I'm not a mod, but maybe we should wrap up that particular tangent.  I do think it's worth pursuing in another thread, however, because, to be fair to him, IoanC is not the only one who holds his views claiming patristic support, and it's certainly out there and needs to be addressed. 
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« Reply #170 on: October 24, 2013, 05:45:39 PM »

I really don't agree. You and others make wanting children sound so bad, when in fact isn't.
I'm really pretty sure that no one on this thread has said that. So that's just a straw man.

I asked this question a bunch of times and nobody replied with "yes" or "no", but I can't remember who compared wanting children with wanting a car. Somebody else compared the desire to have children with praying to idols. I can go on.

 
Quote
Quote
And so far there was no reasonable reason given as to why IVF is bad.
I'm not quite sure that what's been said here is the official position of the Church regarding this matter.
Actually, they have. In great detail. Liza (I think) linked a paper from the Church of Greece and someone else from the GOA website.
Actually, the links provided talk about IVF with "reservation" calling it "controversial" , but there's no definite "NO to IVF" anywhere. It's more of a case by case, talk to your priest kind of thing.

Quote
Quote
It sounds more like personal opinions. Which is ok. But don't start blaming people for wanting children and push them to adopt.
Seriously? Have you even read what people have posted? You asked a question - people answered. You didn't like the answers or the answers didn't agree with your own personal opinions.

 What people wrote are personal opinions. The Church does not have a canon against it, for example. Or does it?
I was actually looking for "why" would IVF be frowned upon. And all I got was some horror stories that don't apply in the majority of cases. While I agree that a lot of couples don't care about zygotes and what happens to them, that can't possibly mean that the Church can't formulate a complete answer and educate the infertile couples on what they can do to have an ethical IVF.

I can't and won't throw IVF in the garbage just yet. Let me ask you this.
Should we stop taking pain killers when we need them, just because people overdosed on them?
Should we stop going to Church just because some priest decided to sexual harass people?
Should we stop driving just because people got rich from selling cars at our expense?
Should I throw away my computer because it was built by small little Chinese children that are way underpaid?
Should we stop public schools from functioning Just because teachers are having sexual relationships with their students?

Now let me ask you this.
Should the Church marry gay people just because they are now allowed by law to do so in a civil court?
Should the Church be ok with abortion just because doctors are allowed by law to perform them?
Should the Church be ok with premarital sexual relationship just because two people are deeply in love and allowed by law to fornicate?


Quote
Quote
Sad, really!

Now there, you and I agree. It is sad that you asked a question, people answered with both personal opinions, facts and the Church's position. You didn't like what you heard, so you rejected it.

I just don't think the answers received are enough to make me understand IVF is bad. So far, there's nothing I read that can suggest that.
But I read enough guilt trips and judgements. That I got enough of to make me sad.
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« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2013, 05:51:10 PM »

I would prefer to actually see what the fathers say as opposed to liberal paraphrases.

As the fathers/theologians say: Putting poo in the food makes it stink.

Or something like that.

IVF didn't exist back in the days of the Fathers.
Keep up man!  We are arguing about if sex is bad or not now.

This thread truly is a gift that keeps on giving  Undecided
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« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2013, 05:54:36 PM »

I'm sorry for you guys this is funny!

I take this very seriously and if it doesn't raise to your standards you can go ahead and stop reading it.
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« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2013, 05:56:46 PM »

I'm sorry for you guys this is funny!

I take this very seriously and if it doesn't raise to your standards you can go ahead and stop reading it.

I had a twin brother that died due to being not as developed as me. No in-vitro, just the normal way. I kinda understand what it means to prey on fellow embryos so do not worry I treat it seriously.
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« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2013, 06:25:33 PM »

I'm sorry for you guys this is funny!

I take this very seriously and if it doesn't raise to your standards you can go ahead and stop reading it.
We did take the conversation seriously.  There was an honest discussion.  Everyone disagreed with each other, it isn't likely to get resolved to everyone's satisfaction in the near future. Do you have more questions?
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« Reply #175 on: October 24, 2013, 06:33:49 PM »

Nope.
It's all yours.
Trash it as you please.
Buh-bye.
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« Reply #176 on: October 24, 2013, 06:40:22 PM »

Actually, the links provided talk about IVF with "reservation" calling it "controversial" , but there's no definite "NO to IVF" anywhere. It's more of a case by case, talk to your priest kind of thing.

So you're OK with going along with something that comes with controversy and reservations just because there's no definite "NO"?  

Whether or not you eat vertebrate fish during Great Lent is a case by case, ask your priest issue.  Attending non-Orthodox services with your non-Orthodox spouse while you yourself are in the conversion process is a case by case, ask your priest issue.  

IVF is at least more complicated than fish.  

Quote
What people wrote are personal opinions. The Church does not have a canon against it, for example. Or does it?

How can the Church have a canon for or against IVF?  It's a fairly recent procedure whose ethical and moral dimensions have yet to be fully understood.  

Until then, we certainly do have principles, non-negotiable in and of themselves, which are applicable.  And they raise more cons than pros.
  
Quote
I was actually looking for "why" would IVF be frowned upon. And all I got was some horror stories that don't apply in the majority of cases.

I've strenuously avoided "horror stories", so please see my posts again.  

Quote
While I agree that a lot of couples don't care about zygotes and what happens to them, that can't possibly mean that the Church can't formulate a complete answer and educate the infertile couples on what they can do to have an ethical IVF.

In order for the Church to formulate a complete answer regarding IVF, the Church needs to fully understand the procedure.  In my own experience as a non-scientist, I've found it difficult to figure out the truth of the matter because different physicians answer my questions differently...believe it or not, they are also influenced by ideologies, it's not "just the facts".  

Once the Church has "just the facts", however, it can begin to formulate an answer regarding whether or not IVF is ethical and in accordance with our theology.  Note, I didn't say the Church can formulate an answer "to educate infertile couples on what they can do to have an ethical IVF".  First, we need to determine whether or not it is ethical:

a) if it's not, it's out
b) if it is ethical, then we can move on from there
c) if it is currently unethical, but could become ethical subject to certain "improvements", that's another matter.  We'd have to see if IVF can make those ethical changes and still be effective.  

But in every case, the first thing the Church is responsible for is determining whether this procedure can be justified according to the convictions of our faith.  It's not about what the Church can do to help couples go through this procedure in an Orthodox way.  That's putting lipstick on an animal that could be a woman or a pig: we need to turn on the lights and see clearly what we're dealing with.  

Quote
Should we stop taking pain killers when we need them, just because people overdosed on them?
Should we stop going to Church just because some priest decided to sexual harass people?
Should we stop driving just because people got rich from selling cars at our expense?
Should I throw away my computer because it was built by small little Chinese children that are way underpaid?
Should we stop public schools from functioning Just because teachers are having sexual relationships with their students?

In all of the above, you are asking whether we should stop performing activities or using things of at least neutral (but also positive) moral value due to abuses that definitely have negative moral value.  You are presuming that IVF has neutral or positive moral value, but the Church/Jury is still out on this.  

Quote
Should the Church marry gay people just because they are now allowed by law to do so in a civil court?
Should the Church be ok with abortion just because doctors are allowed by law to perform them?
Should the Church be ok with premarital sexual relationship just because two people are deeply in love and allowed by law to fornicate?

You know the answer to these questions because you know what the Church definitely believes about these matters.  We haven't definitively come to a conclusion about IVF other than that there is reason for having reservations.  

Quote
I just don't think the answers received are enough to make me understand IVF is bad. So far, there's nothing I read that can suggest that.
But I read enough guilt trips and judgements. That I got enough of to make me sad.

Forgive me, but I think this is the reason why you are reading into the views of your "opponents" things that are not there, and this is why I suggested that infertile couples considering IVF really need to involve more than just their doctor in coming to a decision on whether to go forward.  Emotions, powerful as they are, don't always help.  

By all means, keep reading, talk to whomever you feel is competent to answer your questions about the science, etc., but be open to the Church and to the light our faith can shed on these questions.  Right now, I get the sense that you've made up your mind and are seeking justifications that are not as plentiful as you'd like.  All of us struggle with that from time to time with our important concerns.  That's why it's important to have some objectivity.  

Ultimately, whatever the Church or science have to say about something, every person will choose to do what they feel is right, and they will have to answer for those choices before God.  The added burden that infertile couples considering these reproductive technologies have is that they are also responsible before God for the children they may bring into existence, whether or not they survive long enough to be brought into the world after having developed fully.  
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 06:41:05 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #177 on: October 25, 2013, 08:43:23 PM »

No they don't. Being fruitful and multiplying doesn't mean "have sex", but is meant in a spiritual way. All The Fathers and many saints speak about this.

Have you used the bathroom lately? Emptying out urine is not that part of your body's only function  Wink I think if you accept that God created humanity, then you have to accept that--for better or for worse--He gave us a real sexuality with real sexual organs. Unless of course the pre-Fall man lacked such a thing, but, that seems pretty silly if you ask me.
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« Reply #178 on: October 26, 2013, 09:49:35 PM »

I think if you accept that God created humanity, then you have to accept that--for better or for worse--He gave us a real sexuality with real sexual organs. Unless of course the pre-Fall man lacked such a thing, but, that seems pretty silly if you ask me.

Give this man a prize!
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« Reply #179 on: October 27, 2013, 02:59:26 AM »

No they don't. Being fruitful and multiplying doesn't mean "have sex", but is meant in a spiritual way. All The Fathers and many saints speak about this.

Have you used the bathroom lately? Emptying out urine is not that part of your body's only function  Wink I think if you accept that God created humanity, then you have to accept that--for better or for worse--He gave us a real sexuality with real sexual organs. Unless of course the pre-Fall man lacked such a thing, but, that seems pretty silly if you ask me.

What seems silly to me is when people believe that this spiritually fallen physical realm is what God intended, that our physiology is meant to function in a non-deified state. Yet, we believe that humanity and the universe was meant to function in direct communion with God through His Grace/Uncreated energies which are separate from creation. In other words, it's not just that our actions have become subject to evil through the fall, but that we lost our real ontology; without God's Grace, deification, man is not what he is meant to be. It's not very helpful to speculate how our organs would function in a deified state because we know that first and foremost we need God to personally restore us to that state and give us His own knowledge about Himself and us. So, firstly, we are required to repent and live an entirely new life in Christ as He taught and then we can talk about how stuff really works.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 03:02:04 AM by IoanC » Logged

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