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Author Topic: Fertility treatments, In Vitro Fertilization..  (Read 2829 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dpaula
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« on: October 23, 2013, 08:47:23 AM »

I've been doing some reading and, as I understand, Orthodoxy and other Christian denominations absolutely are against any methods of conception other than "the traditional" way.
I'm not sure I understand why.
Many couples suffer from infertility and would love to grow their families. I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?
While we fight against abortion, why do we fight against procreation?
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 10:17:22 AM »

I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?

I think you've answered your own question here. There are big ethical problems with these practices. Should the Church approve of activities which are ethically questionable?
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 10:30:10 AM »

It is because things like IVF go beyond the limits of human nature which was left by God that the man and the woman have children and together with children they are a family unit. So, the reasons are both physiological and spiritual. People should consider things like adoption and reducing abortion, instead of altering the idea of human nature with its real consequences. I have a post on my blog about this very issue:

http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/10/the-temptation-of-going-beyond-limits.html
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:30:46 AM by IoanC » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 10:30:53 AM »

The position(s) of the Church is/are more complicated than your statement , ' Orthodoxy and other Christian denominations absolutely are against any methods of conception other than "the traditional" way'would lead one to conclude.

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

Consultation with your priest may be path for many infertile couples to consider, unfortunately however, depending upon the personality and pastoral prudence of any particular priest, I am not sure that idea is good for everyone. (In other words, I've known my share of priests with whom I would not discuss this matter with under any circumstances. On the other hand, I can think of  dozens of priests, numerous monks and nuns and probably five Bishops from three different backgrounds and jurisdictions who, even though they have differing final opinions on parts of the subject  would be wonderful counselors.)

" 'Struggling With Infertility'  6 million women between the ages of 15 and 44 are clinically infertile. Infertility presents a heartbreaking struggle for many Orthodox couples who wonder whether it is God's will for them to be childless, or whether new fertility technologies (and which ones?) are appropriate. In this edition Kevin speaks with Orthodox theologian and ethicist Fr. John Breck about infertility and what options Orthodox Christian couples have to deal with it within an Orthodox context." http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 10:43:28 AM »

Well flying also goes beyond the limits of human nature in this funny perspective of human nature.
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Dpaula
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 10:45:46 AM »

I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?

I think you've answered your own question here. There are big ethical problems with these practices. Should the Church approve of activities which are ethically questionable?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question.
Where there is an ethical problem, it's clear. But when it is not, why stop it? If a child is meant to be, it will be. And if a child is not meant to be, no matter how much doctors try, it won't work.
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 10:53:14 AM »

Everything is natural in the natural world.

Frankly I am more of a Material Girl myself, norm.
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 10:59:27 AM »

Well flying also goes beyond the limits of human nature in this funny perspective of human nature.

Flying doesn't go beyond the limits of human nature in the same way, it does not play with the concepts of life itself. I mean nobody stops you, but the only reason you are doing it is perhaps because of your passion for technology and not realizing that there already children that need adoption and abortions that need to be stopped. In the process, you turn human nature and the concept of normality into a technological issue with unforeseeable results. I'd say that according to the model of our God, one does not have to do all the things one can do. Knowledge is good, but you don't have to apply it in any combination that comes to mind. (God can do all He wishes, but He does not wish to do all that He can do).
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 11:00:35 AM »

Well flying also goes beyond the limits of human nature in this funny perspective of human nature.

Flying doesn't go beyond the limits of human nature in the same way, it does not play with the concepts of life itself. I mean nobody stops you, but the only reason you are doing it is perhaps because of your passion for technology and not realizing that there already children that need adoption and abortions that need to be stopped. In the process, you turn human nature and the concept of normality into a technological issue with unforeseeable results. I'd say that according to the model of our God, one does not have to do all the things one can do. Knowledge is good, but you don't have to apply it in any combination that comes to mind. (God can do all He wishes, but He does not wish to do all that He can do).
Was this supposed to be intentionally funny? Cause I laughed.
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 11:01:39 AM »

Well flying also goes beyond the limits of human nature in this funny perspective of human nature.

Flying doesn't go beyond the limits of human nature in the same way, it does not play with the concepts of life itself. I mean nobody stops you, but the only reason you are doing it is perhaps because of your passion for technology and not realizing that there already children that need adoption and abortions that need to be stopped. In the process, you turn human nature and the concept of normality into a technological issue with unforeseeable results. I'd say that according to the model of our God, one does not have to do all the things one can do. Knowledge is good, but you don't have to apply it in any combination that comes to mind. (God can do all He wishes, but He does not wish to do all that He can do).
Was this supposed to be intentionally funny? Cause I laughed.

Why did you laugh?
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 11:02:49 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2013, 11:05:53 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes

Haven't read that transcript, but are you sure that he didn't want to say that people with erectile dysfunction can't actually ejaculate, or can they?
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2013, 11:07:24 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes

Haven't read that transcript, but are you sure that he didn't want to say that people with erectile dysfunction can't actually ejaculate, or can they?

It's the speaker's business to make themselves clear.

If the flag won't fly in the first place, worrying about firing a salute is a moot point.
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 11:08:10 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes

LoL.
I missed that. Too funny!
Quote
Then, of course, anybody who watches television today is aware of this phenomenon referred to as “ED”, Erectile Dysfunction, inability of a man to ejaculate.
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2013, 11:08:47 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes

Haven't read that transcript, but are you sure that he didn't want to say that people with erectile dysfunction can't actually ejaculate, or can they?

It's the speaker's business to make themselves clear.

If the flag won't fly in the first place, worrying about firing a salute is a moot point.

Well, not everybody is a scientist, but you are more "at fault" if you miss the main point he's trying to make.
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »

Ioan,
I see you mention adoption. Do you know what an adoption process is like? I've been reading into that as well, as it is brought up as an excuse to go against IVF.
One thing that can happen is to get a baby, bring him home, feed him, wash him, bond with him and two days later have him taken away from you because the birth mother changes her mind and wants her baby back. While, I won't judge the birth mother for wanting her baby back, the pain the adoptive parents feel is unbearable. Adoption is not for everyone, as IVF is not for everyone. Both methods have in the end the desired result (if God allows it). 

P.S. I saw you called the IVF process a monstrosity. I've seen lots of babies bringing happiness to the infertile parents. I won't call that a monstrosity.
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2013, 11:29:06 AM »

This "The Illumined Heart" transcript from AFR and an interview conducted with Father John Breck is helpful. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/struggling_with_infertility

I stopped reading at the point where the good Father said that erectile dysfunction is the inability to ejaculate. Not sure I want to go on with something that gets basic biology that wrong. Roll Eyes

Haven't read that transcript, but are you sure that he didn't want to say that people with erectile dysfunction can't actually ejaculate, or can they?

It's the speaker's business to make themselves clear.

If the flag won't fly in the first place, worrying about firing a salute is a moot point.

Well, not everybody is a scientist, but you are more "at fault" if you miss the main point he's trying to make.

The main point about ED is that it leads to impotence, not infertility. No need to be coy about it.
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2013, 11:40:59 AM »

I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?

I think you've answered your own question here. There are big ethical problems with these practices. Should the Church approve of activities which are ethically questionable?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question.
Where there is an ethical problem, it's clear. But when it is not, why stop it? If a child is meant to be, it will be. And if a child is not meant to be, no matter how much doctors try, it won't work.

In your opinion, when would there not be an ethical question? In this procedure, I mean. The whole thing seems to be an ethical quagmire from start to finish.
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2013, 11:45:21 AM »

I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?

I think you've answered your own question here. There are big ethical problems with these practices. Should the Church approve of activities which are ethically questionable?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question.
Where there is an ethical problem, it's clear. But when it is not, why stop it? If a child is meant to be, it will be. And if a child is not meant to be, no matter how much doctors try, it won't work.

I'm not certain this argument is valid.

Rape, incest, and premarital sex, all lead to children being conceived....and yet, these all stand against Church teachings, as well ethics, and laws.

There are many things, besides having children, that humans wish they could achieve or have in life....and yet, we are taught to be submissive to the will of God.  At some point, one must stop and realize that we will not have everything we thought we wanted or needed, and we need to come to grips with it and refocus our efforts on other things.

It's not that God is angry at us, or limiting us in some way.  In fact, by denying us this or that, He is actually encouraging us to do something else, which will lead us to greater goodness.


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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2013, 11:47:06 AM »

Well...see below, quoted from the website podkarpatska provided in a previous post.

Quote
This couple demanded that the medical team extract only 3 ova and that only 3 ova—no more—be fertilized. I believe that all 3 were transferred and one pregnancy occurred.

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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2013, 11:54:37 AM »

I've read about some situations where ethical problems arose and there are definitely some areas of concern but isn't it a bit too extreme to condemn this practice altogether?

I think you've answered your own question here. There are big ethical problems with these practices. Should the Church approve of activities which are ethically questionable?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question.
Where there is an ethical problem, it's clear. But when it is not, why stop it? If a child is meant to be, it will be. And if a child is not meant to be, no matter how much doctors try, it won't work.

I'm not certain this argument is valid.

Rape, incest, and premarital sex, all lead to children being conceived....and yet, these all stand against Church teachings, as well ethics, and laws.

There are many things, besides having children, that humans wish they could achieve or have in life....and yet, we are taught to be submissive to the will of God.  At some point, one must stop and realize that we will not have everything we thought we wanted or needed, and we need to come to grips with it and refocus our efforts on other things.

It's not that God is angry at us, or limiting us in some way.  In fact, by denying us this or that, He is actually encouraging us to do something else, which will lead us to greater goodness.




I understand your point, yet...IVF is not equivalent to rape, incest and other ordeals.
A most wanted pregnancy is achieved for two married people for which otherwise pregnancy will not be possible.
I just can't wrap my mind around why is this wrong.

I'm not talking about any third parties involvements. Just husband and wife ready to start a family but unable to, for which technology and science (with the will of God) will make their dream come true.
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2013, 12:16:47 PM »

Ioan,
I see you mention adoption. Do you know what an adoption process is like? I've been reading into that as well, as it is brought up as an excuse to go against IVF.
One thing that can happen is to get a baby, bring him home, feed him, wash him, bond with him and two days later have him taken away from you because the birth mother changes her mind and wants her baby back. While, I won't judge the birth mother for wanting her baby back, the pain the adoptive parents feel is unbearable. Adoption is not for everyone, as IVF is not for everyone. Both methods have in the end the desired result (if God allows it). 

P.S. I saw you called the IVF process a monstrosity. I've seen lots of babies bringing happiness to the infertile parents. I won't call that a monstrosity.


I don't think all adoption processes go bad. Problem is many children desperately need a home.
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2013, 12:20:20 PM »

Ioan,
I see you mention adoption. Do you know what an adoption process is like? I've been reading into that as well, as it is brought up as an excuse to go against IVF.
One thing that can happen is to get a baby, bring him home, feed him, wash him, bond with him and two days later have him taken away from you because the birth mother changes her mind and wants her baby back. While, I won't judge the birth mother for wanting her baby back, the pain the adoptive parents feel is unbearable. Adoption is not for everyone, as IVF is not for everyone. Both methods have in the end the desired result (if God allows it). 

P.S. I saw you called the IVF process a monstrosity. I've seen lots of babies bringing happiness to the infertile parents. I won't call that a monstrosity.


Babies bringing happiness to parents is not a monstrosity. IVF is. Anyway, there are more important things than being a happy parent who owns a child. The Christian attitude has to do more with offering a child to God and stopping abnormalities and injustices in the world such as abortions, and children without a home.
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2013, 12:25:37 PM »

Are you saying wanting a child is a bad thing?
Like a sin? Or what?

I mean it's not like you want a car, or a big house...We're talking about wanting a child, that parents are willing to offer to God.

If you call IVF a monstrosity, what do you call the end result? The baby?

And please forgive me if I sound pushy. I'm really trying to understand the concept of IVF being a bad thing.
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2013, 12:32:29 PM »

Ioan,
I see you mention adoption. Do you know what an adoption process is like? I've been reading into that as well, as it is brought up as an excuse to go against IVF.
One thing that can happen is to get a baby, bring him home, feed him, wash him, bond with him and two days later have him taken away from you because the birth mother changes her mind and wants her baby back. While, I won't judge the birth mother for wanting her baby back, the pain the adoptive parents feel is unbearable. Adoption is not for everyone, as IVF is not for everyone. Both methods have in the end the desired result (if God allows it). 

P.S. I saw you called the IVF process a monstrosity. I've seen lots of babies bringing happiness to the infertile parents. I won't call that a monstrosity.


I don't think all adoption processes go bad. Problem is many children desperately need a home.

No, of course not. But do you know what an adoption process is like? What the family is required to do? How much do they have to pay? How much do they have to wait? How painful it is to be ready to open your house to an orphan and you can't be because social workers don't find you fit.
They need to explain to complete strangers who they are, and how they are. And why they have red carpet. And how many times they have sex? They have to open their house to many complete strangers who dig deep into their lives. Like I said adoption is not for everyone. If you choose adoption for the wrong reason ( "saving" a child is the wrong reason) you might end up in a very crazy situation.
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2013, 12:35:03 PM »

Are you saying wanting a child is a bad thing?
Like a sin? Or what?

I mean it's not like you want a car, or a big house...We're talking about wanting a child, that parents are willing to offer to God.

If you call IVF a monstrosity, what do you call the end result? The baby?

And please forgive me if I sound pushy. I'm really trying to understand the concept of IVF being a bad thing.

Well, if you want to bring a child into the world and cannot conceive one, you have the option to adopt one if you wish.

IVF is bad thing because it is not the natural way, not what God intended. And what God intended was not really a mechanism, but that two human persons (man and woman) procreate and establish a family. This is actually a very deep mystery of life, the way humanity functions. You cannot replace it with a mechanical process; it all becomes a dead thing, a walk towards, well, monstrosity. The result of such a monstrosity (and the word is not used passionately) would be a person with a soul (no doubt about it!), yet his entire existence will be marked by such an abnormal conception in ways that we know and don't know; we definitely don't want to go along this path. Plus, our real problems are abortions and adoptions (we can't be ok with so many babies being, well, murdered and many around the world who don't have anything to eat or a place to stay). Wanting IVF is really an exotic thing with horrendous ramifications and consequences, while not seeing that there are different solutions and crucial problems that need to be fixed instead. Just how I see things and based on that article which was written by prominent Romanian scientist/nun.
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2013, 12:51:00 PM »

Are you saying wanting a child is a bad thing?
Like a sin? Or what?

I mean it's not like you want a car, or a big house...We're talking about wanting a child, that parents are willing to offer to God.

If you call IVF a monstrosity, what do you call the end result? The baby?

And please forgive me if I sound pushy. I'm really trying to understand the concept of IVF being a bad thing.

Well, if you want to bring a child into the world and cannot conceive one, you have the option to adopt one if you wish.

IVF is bad thing because it is not the natural way, not what God intended. And what God intended was not really a mechanism, but that two human persons (man and woman) procreate and establish a family.

This is exactly what I don't get. IVF offers the chance for a man and a woman to procreate. You need one sperm and one egg. Period. Does it matter where the fertilization happen? I mean, the fertilized egg will be transfered  3-5 days later into the mother's uterus where it will grow how it's supposed to grow, and the fetus will come out ...well...a human being. It's not like IVF will somehow alter our DNA and the end result will be some sort of mutation, an abomination, a monster. No, sir! The baby will be a human being, directly related to the mother and the father. So what's the problem?

And for an infertile couple that wishes nothing more but to procreate, you can't talk about world's problems. Like racism, homosexuality, drugs and abortions.

There's some sort of discrepancy here, that I don't quite understand. Is a couple required to just accept they can't procreate? Like a homosexual is required to live with his sinful desire but not act on it? Am I getting closer to the answer?
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 01:11:48 PM »

Well, not everybody is a scientist, but you are more "at fault" if you miss the main point he's trying to make.

If someone writes on science he should at least pass the level of primary school

The result of such a monstrosity (and the word is not used passionately) would be a person with a soul (no doubt about it!), yet his entire existence will be marked by such an abnormal conception in ways that we know and don't know; we definitely don't want to go along this path.

If people like you didn't exist they wouldn't be ostracized.

In your opinion, when would there not be an ethical question? In this procedure, I mean. The whole thing seems to be an ethical quagmire from start to finish.

For all:
- Not freezing zygotes.
- All created zygotes must be implanted.
- No picking best zygotes.

Orthodox can add:
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that will carry and bring the child.
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that are married to each other.

Solved.
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 01:14:48 PM »

Well, not everybody is a scientist, but you are more "at fault" if you miss the main point he's trying to make.

If someone writes on science he should at least pass the level of primary school


You know for a fact that he hasn't passed "the level of primary school"?


The result of such a monstrosity (and the word is not used passionately) would be a person with a soul (no doubt about it!), yet his entire existence will be marked by such an abnormal conception in ways that we know and don't know; we definitely don't want to go along this path.

If people like you didn't exist they wouldn't be ostracized.


Who says he is ostracized?  THIS IS RUDE!  If people like you didn't exist......(fill in the blank).
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 01:18:41 PM »

You know for a fact that he hasn't passed "the level of primary school"?

Hyperbole.

He certainly does not have medical knowledge broad enough to write papers on it.

Quote
Who says he is ostracized?  THIS IS RUDE!  If people like you didn't exist......(fill in the blank).

There is nothing abnormal in the lifes of people conceived with in-vitro but the fact they are being picked on by people who think in-vitro is evil.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 01:18:58 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 01:21:33 PM »

You know for a fact that he hasn't passed "the level of primary school"?

Hyperbole.

He certainly does not have medical knowledge broad enough to write papers on it.


....and you have this knowledge that you feel qualified to knock others down?


Quote
Who says he is ostracized?  THIS IS RUDE!  If people like you didn't exist......(fill in the blank).

There is nothing abnormal in the lifes of people conceived with in-vitro but the fact they are being picked on by people who think in-vitro is evil.

The children are not being picked on.  The process is.

OUR Church, as I assume you still belong to "world Orthodoxy" (as you call it), teaches against this process.

Are you now more knowledgeable than the Church elders?  Are you going against the teachings of the Church?
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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 01:26:06 PM »


Dpaula, I wish you no harm, and my comments are not aimed specifically at you.  I realize this is painful for you, as it seems you are in the middle of something like this.

I don't wish to hurt you, ever.

However, I will also not waiver in what the Church teaches in order to make someone feel better, or under Michal's ridicule.

This is a decision YOU must make.  YOU must weigh the pros and cons.  YOU need to speak with your pastor about this.  YOU have a unique situation that only he can advise you on.  There is economia, and perhaps that will come in to play here.

However, we cannot preach that the Church allows this for everyone in every situation, for it does not.

There's a point when we need to realize that we can't always have it "our" way, and we must be happy with what we have, and move on.

I wish you all the best in this painful and crucial time in your life.  I hope whatever comes of it, that you find peace and the happiness you are seeking.

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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 01:34:41 PM »


Dpaula, I wish you no harm, and my comments are not aimed specifically at you.  I realize this is painful for you, as it seems you are in the middle of something like this.

I don't wish to hurt you, ever.

However, I will also not waiver in what the Church teaches in order to make someone feel better, or under Michal's ridicule.

This is a decision YOU must make.  YOU must weigh the pros and cons.  YOU need to speak with your pastor about this.  YOU have a unique situation that only he can advise you on.  There is economia, and perhaps that will come in to play here.

However, we cannot preach that the Church allows this for everyone in every situation, for it does not.

There's a point when we need to realize that we can't always have it "our" way, and we must be happy with what we have, and move on.

I wish you all the best in this painful and crucial time in your life.  I hope whatever comes of it, that you find peace and the happiness you are seeking.



Oh, Liza...no harm. Don't worry.
I'm not exactly in this situation, but I've been reading about it a lot, since we are in the beginning of our marriage and ready to conceive.
We wish to live the Orthodox life, we wish to raise our children in the Church, so we had a lot of conversations about all this. How far will we go and for how long?

I'm just trying to understand why the Church sees the IVF as a mistake. Is it a sin to procreate this way? What sin would that be?
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 01:42:33 PM »

For all:
- Not freezing zygotes.
- All created zygotes must be implanted.
- No picking best zygotes.

Orthodox can add:
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that will carry and bring the child.
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that are married to each other.

Solved.

Good answer. Except, from what I admit is a bit of hasty research, this is not what happens. SOP is freezing and not all or even most are implanted. If by "best" you mean "most viable," then that's another strike. The most viable are implanted - the rest are frozen.
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 01:43:01 PM »

....and you have this knowledge that you feel qualified to knock others down?

As Arachne pointed out that Fr. Breck whoever he is is ignorant on medicine. So, yes.

Quote
The children are not being picked on.  The process is.

"Frankenstein is the precursor of in-vitro" Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek
"Children conceived via in-vitro have distinc burrows on their foreheads that allow them to be identified at sight" Fr. Franciszek Longchamps de Berier

Quote
OUR Church, as I assume you still belong to "world Orthodoxy" (as you call it), teaches against this process.

Are you now more knowledgeable than the Church elders?  Are you going against the teachings of the Church?


Am I going against scientific opinion I consider to be mistaken by a bishop a dozen of thousands km from me? Yes.

Good answer. Except, from what I admit is a bit of hasty research, this is not what happens. SOP is freezing and not all or even most are implanted. If by "best" you mean "most viable," then that's another strike. The most viable are implanted - the rest are frozen.

I listed the conditions that would make in-vitro acceptable for me, not the ones it goes with.
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 01:54:21 PM »

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues

Quote
•Artificial insemination by a husband (AIH) is not rejected, but artificial insemination by donor (AID) is considered an improper intrusion of a third party in the sanctity of the marital relation.
•In vitro fertilization is looked upon with great doubt because present methods cause the destruction of numerous human fertilized ova and even developing fetuses; this is still a form of abortion.
•Genetic counseling and screening cannot be objected to in principle and in fact should be encouraged.

Here are a few points discussed on GOARCH's website that may be of interest.
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 02:00:24 PM »

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues

Quote
•Artificial insemination by a husband (AIH) is not rejected, but artificial insemination by donor (AID) is considered an improper intrusion of a third party in the sanctity of the marital relation.
•In vitro fertilization is looked upon with great doubt because present methods cause the destruction of numerous human fertilized ova and even developing fetuses; this is still a form of abortion.
•Genetic counseling and screening cannot be objected to in principle and in fact should be encouraged.

Here are a few points discussed on GOARCH's website that may be of interest.

What I wrote.
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 02:03:42 PM »


Am I going against scientific opinion I consider to be mistaken by a bishop a dozen of thousands km from me? Yes.


What about the opinion of the Greek Church - http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues    In vitro fertilization is looked upon with great doubt because present methods cause the destruction of numerous human fertilized ova and even developing fetuses; this is still a form of abortion.

The Bulgarian Church:  http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=135277   The Holy Synod of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church has declared “reservations” against in vitro fertilization and surrogacy, viewing them as a “human interference that is counter to God’s will in the existential foundations of life.” - See more at: http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=135277#sthash.aZ3AuLzK.dpuf

The Russian Church:  http://english.pravda.ru/history/08-10-2010/115278-test_tube_baby-0/    Because the effectiveness of IVF is small, in four out of five cases, it has to be repeated. In order to avoid the risks associated with hormonal stimulation, it is often recommended to immediately create spare embryos and freeze them in the event of failure of the first implantation. But if the implantation goes well, these embryos are destined for destruction, which is unacceptable.

OCA:  http://oca.org/resource-handbook/familylife/medical-bioethics-an-orthodox-christian-perspective-for-orthodox-christians  There are, however, other aspects of the in-vitro fertilization process, which may or do run counter to our church’s teaching.

First of all, it divorces procreation from the conjugal act and should not be considered to be a normative practice. Yet, in-vitro fertilization could become standard practice due to certain selective benefits mentioned below.  Second, the process of choosing the most viable embryos, however well-intentioned, might be viewed as a type of eugenics, or selective breeding.   Third, the unused excess embryos are cryogenically frozen and stored for future use. However, over time these embryos may be in jeopardy of destruction.   Fourth, embryos stored in birth control clinics have become a source material for stem cell research.

...etc...
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2013, 02:09:31 PM »

What about the opinion of the Greek Church - http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues    In vitro fertilization is looked upon with great doubt because present methods cause the destruction of numerous human fertilized ova and even developing fetuses; this is still a form of abortion.

(...)

Second, the process of choosing the most viable embryos, however well-intentioned, might be viewed as a type of eugenics, or selective breeding.   Third, the unused excess embryos are cryogenically frozen and stored for future use. However, over time these embryos may be in jeopardy of destruction.   Fourth, embryos stored in birth control clinics have become a source material for stem cell research.

You could read what I had written prior to bashing me.

I agree with these two points 100%.
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2013, 02:18:21 PM »

I'm not bashing you.

I simply don't approve of the way you refer to other posters.

Additionally,

For all:
- Not freezing zygotes.
- All created zygotes must be implanted.
- No picking best zygotes.
Orthodox can add:
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that will carry and bring the child.
- Ova and sperm come from the donors that are married to each other.
Solved.

...I don't feel all of the above can be regulated enough to count them as absolutes.

Once those eggs/sperm have been extracted and are in the lab....is mom and dad hovering over them to ensure what happens to them?

How many times have we read at misuses and abuses?

Would you wish your sons and daughters experimented on?  You cannot possibly guarantee that this would not happen.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 02:18:56 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2013, 02:22:01 PM »

How many times have we read at misuses and abuses?

Would you wish your sons and daughters experimented on?  You cannot possibly guarantee that this would not happen.

What kind of abuses can be done to one zygote that would not stop it from being implemented?
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« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 02:24:02 PM »


So, you are under the impression (because you have a vast knowledge of science) that only one egg will be extracted from the mom and only that one egg will be fertilized and thereby implanted, to take hold and grow?

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« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 02:26:13 PM »


So, you are under the impression (because you have a vast knowledge of science) that only one egg will be extracted from the mom and only that one egg will be fertilized and thereby implanted, to take hold and grow?

If the couple made that restriction? Yes. Or, as it seems to be commonly practiced, 2 or 3 zygotes being implemented at once.
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« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2013, 02:31:51 PM »

I'm sure at least some of what I have to say will sound insensitive.  It's not my intention.  I've had this sort of conversation when invited to talk to people in troublesome situations like this, and it's really not possible to spell out the Church's thinking without having to deal with a "hard saying" that is difficult for the hearers to understand or accept and for the tellers to communicate.  

When we read Scripture, children are spoken of as a blessing.  When couples today have children, they speak of those children as blessings.  But the two are rarely the same.  

In the past, children were a blessing from God, and people who could not have children may have suffered pain because of the deprivation of this blessing, perhaps they felt shame or inferiority because of it, or were made to feel so by others, but they had no choice but to come to accept it, and/or adopt, participate in the rearing of relatives' children, etc.  

Now we have better means of family planning, we have reproductive technologies, etc., and we also have a more materialistic view of life.  According to this view, children are

an asset
a commodity
a project
a tax break
an attention-grabber
a "life experience"
a status booster, etc.  

Having children is considered to be the real transition into adulthood by people who have children.  If I can't have children, the "blessings" that are I'm missing out on are these subjective blessings for me, for my life, and for my standing in my family, my community, and my society at large.  It's not (or at best it is equally) about not having the objective blessing of children.      

Personally, I think that it is unfair for homosexually oriented people to be told by the Church that their only option according to the gospel is to opt for celibate chastity or enter into a heterosexual marriage, and yet what other option is there according to the gospel, even if it brings them a lot of grief and involves a lot of sacrifice, re-ordering of their lives, overcoming of desires, etc.?  I also feel it is unfair to tell infertile couples that it is wrong to use the new reproductive technologies, but that they should instead adopt or accept that it may not be God's will for them to have the children they desire for whatever reason.  But according to the principles of the gospel, I have a difficult time advising anything else.  

Precisely because of the esteem with which the Orthodox tradition regards marriage, sexuality, and children, I feel that these technologies, by taking the active procreative role of husband and wife and transforming it into a passive, goal-oriented laboratory procedure, are an abuse--they fundamentally conflict with our beliefs about these things.  The love of a man and a woman which causes them to join themselves to each other in physical union with the hope/intention of having a child (itself a sacramental, grace-bearing, grace-conferring experience) is now envisioned as a more "animal" phenomenon, separated into its constituent biological parts, and manipulated by medical practitioners.  Their mandate is to ensure that a child is conceived, and so they follow their procedures in a controlled environment.  They may respect your religious views, but they're not required to respect them more than their patients.  Moreover, these technologies involve other real issues of significant moral, ethical, and theological import: how many ova are fertilised vs how many are implanted, what is done with the "leftovers" (themselves human beings created in the image and likeness of God, albeit created in an atypical manner), and so on.      

The statement that someone posted above...

Quote
IVF offers the chance for a man and a woman to procreate. You need one sperm and one egg. Period. Does it matter where the fertilization happen? I mean, the fertilized egg will be transfered  3-5 days later into the mother's uterus where it will grow how it's supposed to grow, and the fetus will come out ...well...a human being. It's not like IVF will somehow alter our DNA and the end result will be some sort of mutation, an abomination, a monster. No, sir! The baby will be a human being, directly related to the mother and the father. So what's the problem?

...already betrays an acceptance of a non-Orthodox understanding of sexuality, procreation, and the bearing and rearing of children.  Here, a child is not a blessing, it is a commodity, and IVF is a project undertaken to obtain that good.  As long as the supplies come from the spouses and the genetic material is not altered, and the end result is manifestly human, "what's the problem?"  Well, I suppose one is free to look at it that way, but I don't think we can say this is how the Church views it.  Our current theology may need to consider these technologies and adequately address their validity from our particular faith perspective (as opposed to just signing on to RC declarations or leaving it exclusively to a couple to decide as they see fit), but based on what we can say here and now, I think the attempts to justify IVF and related technologies leave much to be desired.    
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« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2013, 02:36:11 PM »



Example of "non-Orthodox understanding of sexuality, procreation, and the bearing and rearing of children".
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 02:36:43 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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