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« on: October 23, 2013, 05:34:36 AM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 06:23:14 AM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 08:50:17 AM »

To expand upon the above answer, Orthodox Answers offers this in response to an inquiry about St. Therese:

"When the Roman Catholic Church canonized Saint Therese, it presented to the faithful an example of a spiritual path to follow.  This spiritual path, however, differs from that of Orthodox saints.  There are certain beliefs promoted by the Roman Catholic Church as beneficial or mandatory that the Orthodox consider to be erroneous or possibly detrimental to one's salvation.  This is why we recognize that Saint Therese is in fact a Roman Catholic saint, but Orthodoxy cannot, obviously, recommend her entire life or belief system as an example for Orthodox Christians to follow. These are Christians that have lived outside the boundary of the Orthodox communion and for which Orthodox bishops cannot make formal proclamations, even if their piety or martyrdom are worthy of respect.  Finally, the reciprocal situation exists: the Roman Catholic Church does not formally recognize Orthodox saints and could not do so for the same reasons explained above." http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/32/

I would add that by not venerating a particular Roman Catholic post schism saint as a Saint of the Orthodox, it does not mean that an Orthodox faithful could not find much to admire about the Christian life, and in many cases, death of a particular saint.

I would recommend that if you are troubled by this or have further questions, meet with your parish priest.

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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 11:56:39 AM »

You don't have to venerate our saints, and we don't have to venerate yours.

End of thread, move to next?  Cool
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 01:04:34 PM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.

There are some exceptions. Like St. Isaac the Syrian.
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 01:40:41 PM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.

There are some exceptions. Like St. Isaac the Syrian.

There are two saints known as St. Isaac the Syrian. Both are pre-schism. St. Isaac the Syrian, Abbot of Spoleto of the sixth century http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/04/12/101063-st-isaac-the-syrian-abbot-of-spoleto and  St.Isaac of Nineveh, also known as Isaac of Syria,of the 7th century. http://oca.org/saints/all-lives/2013/01/28

Which one?
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 01:47:39 PM »

There are two saints known as St. Isaac the Syrian. Both are pre-schism. St. Isaac the Syrian, Abbot of Spoleto of the sixth century http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/04/12/101063-st-isaac-the-syrian-abbot-of-spoleto and  St.Isaac of Nineveh, also known as Isaac of Syria,of the 7th century. http://oca.org/saints/all-lives/2013/01/28

Which one?

But wasn't St. Isaac of Nineveh a bishop of the Assyrian Church? He's pre-Great Schism, but post-Ephesian Schism.
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 06:17:46 PM »

There are two saints known as St. Isaac the Syrian. Both are pre-schism. St. Isaac the Syrian, Abbot of Spoleto of the sixth century http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/04/12/101063-st-isaac-the-syrian-abbot-of-spoleto and  St.Isaac of Nineveh, also known as Isaac of Syria,of the 7th century. http://oca.org/saints/all-lives/2013/01/28

Which one?

But wasn't St. Isaac of Nineveh a bishop of the Assyrian Church? He's pre-Great Schism, but post-Ephesian Schism.

From Orthowiki: 

"Much has been made in some circles that St. Isaac was a member of the Church of Persia (known today at the Assyrian Church of the East), which has been associated with the Nestorian heresy. The first edition (1984) of the Orthodox English translation of St. Isaac's Ascetical Homilies contained an extensive Epilogue entitled "A Brief Historical and Theological Introduction to the Church of Persia to the End of the Seventh Century," written by Syriac scholar Dr. Dana R. Miller of Fordham University, which has been summarized thusly in the new (2011) more compact second edition: "Saint Isaac was and still is commonly called 'Nestorian Bishop of Nineveh' and the Church of Persia of his day, 'Nestorian'. The [first edition] Epilogue endeavored to demonstrate that the teachings of Nestorius did not inform the theology of the Church of Persia; that the writings of Theodore of Mopsuestia known to her were partial and imperfect translations, and that the controversy his writings caused in the Greek-speaking world were mostly unknown to the Church of Persia, cut off by linguistic differences and political boundaries; that in some cases it was extremism on the part of the Monophysites that led the Church of Persia to take a stance that might seem to lend itself to a Nestorian interpretation, such as the cautious avoidance of the term Theotokos to avoid Monophysite Theopaschism, though she professed the Virgin's Son to be perfect God and perfect man; that the fraternal relations with Byzantium remained open: no general and hardened opposition to the Fourth [Ecumenical] Council created a final division between the Church of Persia of Saint Isaac's day and the 'Chalcedonian' Church, as it did with the Monophysites, for whom the rejection of the Council of Chalcedon became a defining element of their identity. Its aim, in a word, was to show that the Church of Persia to which Saint Isaac belonged was neither heretical in theology nor schismatic in confession." (pages 74-75, "Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian", Revised Second Edition, translated and published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA, 2011)" http://orthodoxwiki.org/Isaac_of_Syria
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 09:55:34 PM »

So the Assyrians not only aren't Nestorian, but never split from the church? That'll make the OOs happy.
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 10:40:12 PM »

So the Assyrians not only aren't Nestorian, but never split from the church? That'll make the OOs happy.

You're funny! 
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 10:57:27 PM »

More seriously, though, if the Church of Persia hadn't split from the church over the Council of Ephesus, then when and why did they split? Indeed, the author's statement that there was no split on account of Chalcedon (when the issue was with Ephesine Christology, and even Nestorius could fit Chalcedon into his heresy) makes it sound like he's playing fast and loose with history.

Attempts to do the same thing with the Assyrians that is happening with the non-Chalcedonians always make me wary. I have yet to see sufficient evidence to convince me that Patriarch Mar Babai I and St. Cyril of Alexandria shared a Christology, or ever thought they did.
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 12:03:51 AM »

You don't have to venerate our saints, and we don't have to venerate yours.

End of thread, move to next?  Cool

Yes! Next!
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 12:27:26 AM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.


Orthodox do venerate most if not all early church saints, pre schism.  We venerate some popes of the 1st millennium eg Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Leo the Great,  Hieromartyr Clement Pope of Rome, Pope St. Martin Confessor, and other western saints: St. Augustine, Martyr Anastasia of Rome, St. Martin of Tours, St. Patrick, St. Jerome, Martyr Sebastian and his companions at Rome to name a few.

 
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 12:30:50 AM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.


Orthodox do venerate most if not all early church saints, pre schism.  We venerate some popes of the 1st millennium eg Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Leo the Great,  Hieromartyr Clement Pope of Rome, Pope St. Martin Confessor, and other western saints: St. Augustine, Martyr Anastasia of Rome, St. Martin of Tours, St. Patrick, St. Jerome, Martyr Sebastian and his companions at Rome to name a few.

 

That much was evident in the OP.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 12:35:56 AM »

On the point of those saints that aren't glorified in the East but are in the West, are there any pre-schism saints that were glorified in the West before the schism but never glorified in the Eastern Churches either before or after? I'd imagine there'd have to be some, considering I know the reverse is true (Eastern saints not glorified in the pre-schism West).
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 07:18:24 AM »

On the point of those saints that aren't glorified in the East but are in the West, are there any pre-schism saints that were glorified in the West before the schism but never glorified in the Eastern Churches either before or after? I'd imagine there'd have to be some, considering I know the reverse is true (Eastern saints not glorified in the pre-schism West).

The prevailing attitude seems to be that anyone glorified before the turn of the millennium, even if the the East didn't learn about it for hundreds of years, is worthy of veneration, provided that they don't seem unreasonably unorthodox.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 07:46:22 AM »

Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

I wouldn't.
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 12:35:40 PM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

Catholic saints that are post-schism are seen as outside the church. As such it would be inappropriate for an Orthodox person to venerate someone who taught "heresy" or supports it. Its discouraged in Orthodoxy to venerate western saints that are post schism although some orthodox privately continue to do so.

I understand. It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

then again there are some who venerate St Francis of Assisi.

oh well that's just my two cents
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 01:05:59 PM »

It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

Really?  I've read a lot about him, but I never came across this.  I don't doubt it, but what were his criticisms? 
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 01:17:59 PM »

It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

Really?  I've read a lot about him, but I never came across this.  I don't doubt it, but what were his criticisms? 

Same here.  Perhaps Wandile could be more specific.

Just saying that a saint or saintly person "...had several criticisms of Orthodoxy" and that that makes them unworthy of veneration without specifying and providing sources for those criticisms seems to me, at the least, unfair to that person if not worse.
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 01:47:17 PM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.


Orthodox do venerate most if not all early church saints, pre schism.  We venerate some popes of the 1st millennium eg Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Leo the Great,  Hieromartyr Clement Pope of Rome, Pope St. Martin Confessor, and other western saints: St. Augustine, Martyr Anastasia of Rome, St. Martin of Tours, St. Patrick, St. Jerome, Martyr Sebastian and his companions at Rome to name a few.

Even St. Olaf of Norway.

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

Catholic saints that are post-schism are seen as outside the church. As such it would be inappropriate for an Orthodox person to venerate someone who taught "heresy" or supports it. Its discouraged in Orthodoxy to venerate western saints that are post schism although some orthodox privately continue to do so.

I understand. It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

then again there are some who venerate St Francis of Assisi.

oh well that's just my two cents

Not just because they criticize Orthodoxy. But also because of their violence, (some Saints are Crusaders for instance) their 'logical explanations' of theology, which is unexplainable in the Orthodox Church, and some of their 'visions' which teach some strange things. That's why I wouldn't venerate them anyway.
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2013, 01:59:58 PM »

It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

Really?  I've read a lot about him, but I never came across this.  I don't doubt it, but what were his criticisms?  

Honestly... Its hearsay. I've seen someone claim , in one of the threads, he spoke some women into converting to Catholicism by stating that orthodoxy aren't really united and some other stuff... The claim is in one of the threads on this forum. The thread was about a conversion of an orthodox parish attributed to padre pio.

 Another thing I've heard someone say. The person said padre pio said the Russians will convert to Catholicism before America.

I must admit his writings are hard to come by. I guess I should have said his "alleged" criticisms of orthodoxy

My Apologies  Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2013, 02:20:35 PM »

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

No, because they are not recognized as saints by the Orthodox Church, as they are outside the fold of the Church.


Orthodox do venerate most if not all early church saints, pre schism.  We venerate some popes of the 1st millennium eg Pope St. Gregory the Great, Pope St. Leo the Great,  Hieromartyr Clement Pope of Rome, Pope St. Martin Confessor, and other western saints: St. Augustine, Martyr Anastasia of Rome, St. Martin of Tours, St. Patrick, St. Jerome, Martyr Sebastian and his companions at Rome to name a few.

Even St. Olaf of Norway.

What is the Orthodox view of recognizing saints of Roman Catholicism? There are obviously some that ARE venerated by the Orthodox church but what of those that are not? Can Orthodox venerate/pray to those saints?

Catholic saints that are post-schism are seen as outside the church. As such it would be inappropriate for an Orthodox person to venerate someone who taught "heresy" or supports it. Its discouraged in Orthodoxy to venerate western saints that are post schism although some orthodox privately continue to do so.

I understand. It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

then again there are some who venerate St Francis of Assisi.

oh well that's just my two cents

Not just because they criticize Orthodoxy. But also because of their violence, (some Saints are Crusaders for instance) their 'logical explanations' of theology, which is unexplainable in the Orthodox Church, and some of their 'visions' which teach some strange things. That's why I wouldn't venerate them anyway.

Sts. Constantine and Vladimir and a "few" others weren't violent?
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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2013, 02:22:37 PM »

It would be difficult to venerate Padre Pio who had several criticisms of Orthodoxy.

Really?  I've read a lot about him, but I never came across this.  I don't doubt it, but what were his criticisms?  

Honestly... Its hearsay. I've seen someone claim , in one of the threads, he spoke some women into converting to Catholicism by stating that orthodoxy aren't really united and some other stuff... The claim is in one of the threads on this forum. The thread was about a conversion of an orthodox parish attributed to padre pio.

 Another thing I've heard someone say. The person said padre pio said the Russians will convert to Catholicism before America.

I must admit his writings are hard to come by. I guess I should have said his "alleged" criticisms of orthodoxy

My Apologies  Smiley


No problem! Wink
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2013, 05:59:54 PM »

I've seen someone claim , in one of the threads, he spoke some women into converting to Catholicism by stating that orthodoxy aren't really united and some other stuff.

Hmm, maybe Padre Pio had a vision of this Forum ...  Grin
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2013, 06:19:27 PM »

It wouldn't surprise me at all if most Orthodox were a bit wary of venerating Catholic saints. Though, interestingly enough, Byzantines venerate some Orthodox saints, such as St. Seraphim of Serov (one of my favorites) and St. Gregory Palamas, as this is done liturgically.
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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2013, 06:54:31 PM »

To expand upon the above answer, Orthodox Answers offers this in response to an inquiry about St. Therese:

"When the Roman Catholic Church canonized Saint Therese, it presented to the faithful an example of a spiritual path to follow.  This spiritual path, however, differs from that of Orthodox saints.  There are certain beliefs promoted by the Roman Catholic Church as beneficial or mandatory that the Orthodox consider to be erroneous or possibly detrimental to one's salvation.  This is why we recognize that Saint Therese is in fact a Roman Catholic saint, but Orthodoxy cannot, obviously, recommend her entire life or belief system as an example for Orthodox Christians to follow.

Do you know what the objection(s) are?  I read her autobiography about twenty years ago, so I don't remember much, but in subsequent years, I can't remember hearing anything about Therese and her way of life that struck me as specifically non-Orthodox except the fact that she was a Roman Catholic. 

If this is just a roundabout way of saying "She was not one of us, so we can't vouch for her", I wish they would've limited themselves to that rather than suggest her "spiritual path" was actively heterodox.   
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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2013, 07:59:02 PM »

To expand upon the above answer, Orthodox Answers offers this in response to an inquiry about St. Therese:

"When the Roman Catholic Church canonized Saint Therese, it presented to the faithful an example of a spiritual path to follow.  This spiritual path, however, differs from that of Orthodox saints.  There are certain beliefs promoted by the Roman Catholic Church as beneficial or mandatory that the Orthodox consider to be erroneous or possibly detrimental to one's salvation.  This is why we recognize that Saint Therese is in fact a Roman Catholic saint, but Orthodoxy cannot, obviously, recommend her entire life or belief system as an example for Orthodox Christians to follow.

Do you know what the objection(s) are?  I read her autobiography about twenty years ago, so I don't remember much, but in subsequent years, I can't remember hearing anything about Therese and her way of life that struck me as specifically non-Orthodox except the fact that she was a Roman Catholic. 

If this is just a roundabout way of saying "She was not one of us, so we can't vouch for her", I wish they would've limited themselves to that rather than suggest her "spiritual path" was actively heterodox.   

Good pick up. (I usually don't quote directly from that site as to my reading, they often present an unnecessarily polemical pov. )
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2014, 02:24:13 AM »

To expand upon the above answer, Orthodox Answers offers this in response to an inquiry about St. Therese:

"When the Roman Catholic Church canonized Saint Therese, it presented to the faithful an example of a spiritual path to follow.  This spiritual path, however, differs from that of Orthodox saints.  There are certain beliefs promoted by the Roman Catholic Church as beneficial or mandatory that the Orthodox consider to be erroneous or possibly detrimental to one's salvation.  This is why we recognize that Saint Therese is in fact a Roman Catholic saint, but Orthodoxy cannot, obviously, recommend her entire life or belief system as an example for Orthodox Christians to follow. These are Christians that have lived outside the boundary of the Orthodox communion and for which Orthodox bishops cannot make formal proclamations, even if their piety or martyrdom are worthy of respect.  Finally, the reciprocal situation exists: the Roman Catholic Church does not formally recognize Orthodox saints and could not do so for the same reasons explained above." http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/32/

I would add that by not venerating a particular Roman Catholic post schism saint as a Saint of the Orthodox, it does not mean that an Orthodox faithful could not find much to admire about the Christian life, and in many cases, death of a particular saint.

In her book, Light Before Dusk: A Russian Catholic in France, the late Helen Isowolsky talks about devotion to Saint Therese among Russian Orthodox Christians in the chapter titled, "My Orthodox Friends".

She writes:

Quote
I was interested to discover that my visitor had a special devotion to St Theresa. She had even witnessed a miraculous cure while nursing a sick child in a French family. After our first talk she came to see me often and borrowed books from me. She was especially attracted by the life of little St. Theresa, by the writings of St. Theresa of Avila, and by Father Bruno's voluminous work on St. John of the Cross. When she returned this book to me, I was distressed to find it in a damaged condition; the cover was torn, the pages crumpled. I later learned she had lent the book to a number of friends, and to a man sick in the hospital. "I was advised to do so by Father T.," she explained to me, naming a well-known Orthodox priest. "He said it would bring comfort to the invalid."

This is a good example of the interest by the Orthodox in Catholic books. I believe these books are exercising a considerable influence on Russian religious thought, as through them many Russian emigres have become acquainted with the great Catholic mystics and saints.

Among these saints, St. Theresa of Lisieux is perhaps the most popular. It is not only her writings, but her entire personality which attracts the Orthodox. Her picture is often to be found in their homes, piously placed beside the family icons. St. Theresa is said to have performed many miracles for the Russians, as if fulfilling the wishes of Pope Pius XI who chose her as the patron saint of suffering Russia. She has been known to help refugees find jobs and to bring them unexpected sums of money when they are hard up. There is even the story of the Russian taxi-driver who ran short of gasoline on a lonely road, and after praying to St. Theresa found his tank miraculously filled.

I remember a priest who knew the Russians well complaining that they were always pressing St. Theresa for help. These prayers, he said, too often asked for temporal benefits and not for spiritual blessings. "And unfortunately," he added, "she always grants their prayers." I was asked by Father Bruno, editor of "Etudes Carmelitaines", to make an inquiry concerning devotion of Russians to St. Theresa. I visited many of my Orthodox friends and wrote to others about it. They readily answered my questions, and were pleased that an important Catholic review took interest in their religious sentiments.

Most of them declared that the "Little Way" of St. Theresa and her "Spiritual Childhood" appealed to Russian piety. It reminded them of their beloved Saint Seraphim who also preached the little way of humility.

While making my inquiry I visited the well-known Russian poetess and author, Zinaida Hippius, the wife of the late writer Merejkovsky.
...the poems which she had dedicated to little St. Theresa are not only beautiful but of admirable simplicity. I spent hours talking to her, and she told me of her pilgrimages to Lisieux.

I published translations of Zinaida Hippius' poems
in the "Etudes Carmelitaines", as well as many testimonials and letters from my other Orthodox friends. These testimonials were of great interest, but in spite of the explanations they gave of the reasons why Russians have a devotion to St. Theresa, it still remains a mystery to me. St. Theresa's writings are so typical of Western piety, and the entire life of this young French Carmelite is so unlike the lives of the Russian saints, that I can scarcely understand why she has been specially chosen by my compatriots. Even the resemblance to St. Seraphim is not sufficient to explain this attraction.

There must be another explanation, a supernatural one. St. Theresa's dream was always to pursue her apostolate in some distant country; but her health was too delicate for such an enterprise, and she was moreover a cloistered nun. Strangely enough, since her death she has become a favourite saint of the Russians and the patron of Union.
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