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Author Topic: Charismatics in the Catholic Church  (Read 1299 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 23, 2013, 02:19:31 AM »

I recently came across this blog:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 02:42:54 AM »

I recently came across this blog:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »

Those people in those pictures look like they're on drugs.

No, I've never seen that craziness in my diocese, thank God.

But I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 08:21:33 PM »

I recently came across this blog:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 09:21:40 PM »

I recently came across this blog:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?

Yes it has.

I attended a Newman center run by sisters whose order has an additional requirement of being charismatic. Stepping up and merely doubting the validity, not even yet questioning and rejecting it, along with the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, I was kicked out of the center for "leading others away from Christ and His Church." It was good that I was kicked out, for that was the single event that gave me the courage to eventually visit my OCA parish. (I no longer had a large group of people trying to talk me out of it, getting kicked out in and of itself did not make me hate the Roman Church and therefore I had to leave. I still love the Roman Church despite some of the heretical claims.)
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 09:41:36 PM »

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.

Isn't the Fransiscan University in Stuebenville really traditional though? I'd assume the area to reflect that, or do you mean something else?
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 09:51:18 PM »

I had a professor, who I deeply respect, that was a part of a charismatic Catholic parish. I never checked his facts, but he said it is growing quite rapidly, mainly due to the influx of Mexican and other Latin American immigrants.
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2013, 07:45:00 PM »

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?

Um ... huh?
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2013, 08:15:39 PM »

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.

Isn't the Fransiscan University in Stuebenville really traditional though? I'd assume the area to reflect that, or do you mean something else?
They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2013, 08:28:07 PM »

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.

Isn't the Fransiscan University in Stuebenville really traditional though? I'd assume the area to reflect that, or do you mean something else?
They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.

How does that work, exactly? Huh
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2013, 08:58:00 PM »

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.

Isn't the Fransiscan University in Stuebenville really traditional though? I'd assume the area to reflect that, or do you mean something else?
They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.

How does that work, exactly? Huh

I was going to ask that very same thing.  These are two things that should be polar opposites, being exclusive of each other rather than being two things that could work in concert. 
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2013, 09:00:41 PM »

I recently came across this blog:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Is the problem that this blogger talks about really that bad in the Catholic Church?  Has the Charismatic movement really infiltrated that far?
The article links to an article on acupuncture which it says can be a doorway to the occult. I underwent acupuncture treatment once and found it helpful. I doubt that the beneficial effect was due to occult influences.
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2013, 09:13:11 PM »

They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.

How does that work, exactly? Huh

I was going to ask that very same thing.  These are two things that should be polar opposites, being exclusive of each other rather than being two things that could work in concert. 

Why?
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2013, 09:53:02 PM »

They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.

How does that work, exactly? Huh

I was going to ask that very same thing.  These are two things that should be polar opposites, being exclusive of each other rather than being two things that could work in concert. 

Why?

Conservatives and traditionalists don't usually jump on the latest, trendy, 'flash and banter' bandwagons.  Someone else mentioned that one picture near the top of that blog, the people look like they're on drugs.  I don't get the impression that Christ or any of His apostles took the charismatic approach, thinking the truth wasn't enough and maybe they had to mix in this kind of 'fervor,' like they needed to also be putting on a show.  I know it doesn't really apply to this kind of worship, but when I think of charismatics and how they conduct services at those kinds of churches, my mind can't help but flash back to Rocky and Bullwinkle. 

"Hey, Rocky!  Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"
"Again?!"
"Nuthin' up muh sleeve, and...presto!"
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2013, 09:56:08 PM »

The charismatic movement is very popular in the Catholic Church in Brazil. Click the Youtube link below if you are interested in seeing a mass celebrated by Fr. Marcelo Rossi, a very popular priest, in São Paulo.

Padre Marcelo Rossi: Momentos da "Santa Missa" - 03|03|13

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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2013, 02:30:05 AM »

The charismatic movement is very popular in the Catholic Church in Brazil. Click the Youtube link below if you are interested in seeing a mass celebrated by Fr. Marcelo Rossi, a very popular priest, in São Paulo.

Padre Marcelo Rossi: Momentos da "Santa Missa" - 03|03|13

What in the world are those costumes near the end?
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2013, 02:47:06 AM »

The charismatic movement is very popular in the Catholic Church in Brazil. Click the Youtube link below if you are interested in seeing a mass celebrated by Fr. Marcelo Rossi, a very popular priest, in São Paulo.

Padre Marcelo Rossi: Momentos da "Santa Missa" - 03|03|13

What in the world are those costumes near the end?

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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2013, 05:16:30 PM »


What in the world are those costumes near the end?

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+1

Perfect.
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2013, 06:37:58 PM »

Stepping up and merely doubting the validity, not even yet questioning and rejecting it, along with the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, ...
You know, not all Medjugorje believers are charismatic, but the Mejugorje cult seems have very deep roots in the charismatic Catholic movement.
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2013, 08:11:22 PM »

I think charismatics are yet another way by which misguided people, including clergy, attempt to fill up the pews by worldly means.  On another thread, we see some churches trying to do this with beer.  I thought we were supposed to be dead to the world?  That's paradoxical, imo.  We're supposed to be dead to the world, and yet we're supposed to engage in fellowship, which is socializing and brings you into contact with worldliness, because they bring all that baggage along with them, even to church.  As to charismatics, no sooner did I see this thread on the subject when I read a passage from Fr Reardon's book, "Christ in His Saints" that seems to speak on this very thing:

Speaking about Simon Peter who, after having denied Christ three times in the courtyard, felt so distraught and guilty by what he'd done, that when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus in the garden, Simon Peter attacked with violence.  "...he was neither the first man nor the last to confuse human excitement with divine strength, nor to mistake the pumping of adrenaline for the infusion of grace.  Within a very short time after he swung his sword at the unsuspecting Malchus (cf. John 18:10), we find Peter backing down, embarrassed before the pointing finger of servant girl."

We're finding more and more worldly ways to draw into the church people who abide only worldly values, and then we're going to what?  Tell them then that it's wrong?  What good does it do to attract people to the church in precisely the wrong ways, when, in doing so, we've made hypocrites of ourselves, and have, therefore, taught them nothing?  Worse than that, we will have taught them something, and it will be the wrong thing.
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2013, 11:24:45 PM »

Yes, it has.

My Roman Catholic friend goes to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal conventions every year at the Anaheim Convention Center. And the priest or deacon will dance while holding the Gospel book. I have seen it with my own eyes before I became an Orthodox Christian. It still goes on and is very popular with young children, young adults, and the elderly alike.
The thing about charismatic confrences is that if you really go to one that is not hosted by Life Teen or Stuebenville, what you are likely to see is lots of gray hair.

Isn't the Fransiscan University in Stuebenville really traditional though? I'd assume the area to reflect that, or do you mean something else?
They are theologically conservative, but very into the charismatic movement.

How does that work, exactly? Huh
Welll, it is kind of a strange mix, but groups like Lifeteen and Stuebenville speak of a "dynamic orthodoxy." They are intensely loyal to the magisterium, and take Church teaching very seriously. You will not see these individuals departing from Church teaching on the Sacraments, the Mass, the Priesthood, the Papacy, or Moral Theology. However, they believe that God wants to grant us charismatic gifts such as "speaking in tongues," the "gift of tears," or even "prophecy." Unfortunately, I believe such individuals mistake highly emotionally charged experiences for the genuine gifts of the Spirit. I actually think these things are really just protestant practices sneaking into Catholic circles. 

Unfortunately, I was raised with such an experience of the Catholic faith. When the emotions wore off, I fell into despair and doubt. In response, I had to seek out a more intellectual approach to faith, which eventually led to my appreciation of philosophy. Now I'm as traditional as they come. That being said, it was the charismatic movement that first encouraged me to take my faith seriously.
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2013, 12:10:12 AM »

Welll, it is kind of a strange mix, but groups like Lifeteen and Stuebenville speak of a "dynamic orthodoxy." They are intensely loyal to the magisterium, and take Church teaching very seriously. You will not see these individuals departing from Church teaching on the Sacraments, the Mass, the Priesthood, the Papacy, or Moral Theology. However, they believe that God wants to grant us charismatic gifts such as "speaking in tongues," the "gift of tears," or even "prophecy."

So they're essentially trying to sever orthopraxy from orthodoxy (or vice-versa)? Hmmm. Obviously I think that's a fool's errand, but thanks for explaining.

Quote
Unfortunately, I believe such individuals mistake highly emotionally charged experiences for the genuine gifts of the Spirit. I actually think these things are really just protestant practices sneaking into Catholic circles.


I would have to agree with you, based on what little I've seen of these so-called "Catholic Charismatics". I can't help but be reminded of the words of the Apostle Paul: "I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2013, 12:19:36 AM »


So they're essentially trying to sever orthopraxy from orthodoxy (or vice-versa)? Hmmm. Obviously I think that's a fool's errand, but thanks for explaining.

I absolutely agree with you. The two should never be separated from one another. However, I do understand where they are coming from. While there were many good things about the pre-Vatican II Church (i.e. orthodoxy and orthopraxis), the tendency to convey the faith as list of dogmas to be memorized easily allowed for the failure to bring individual Christians into a salvific and and sanctifying experience of the person of Christ. Perhaps some of the architects of Vatican II wanted to remedy this problem; yet, they very clearly went too far in the other direction, and the result was the loss of orthodoxy and orthopraxis.
I see the charismatic movement as part of this overreaction. The emphasis is on personal encounter with our Lord. However, the approach is sadly mistaken. Rather than seeking after a cheap emotional high, the Christian who wants to know Christ Jesus should seek the guidance of the great Christian mystics, Sts. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and Fathers of the Church (both East and West). While this way calls for great discipline and sacrifice, it leads to genuine theosis, and ultimately to sainthood.
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2013, 12:34:20 AM »

Welll, it is kind of a strange mix, but groups like Lifeteen and Stuebenville speak of a "dynamic orthodoxy." They are intensely loyal to the magisterium, and take Church teaching very seriously. You will not see these individuals departing from Church teaching on the Sacraments, the Mass, the Priesthood, the Papacy, or Moral Theology. However, they believe that God wants to grant us charismatic gifts such as "speaking in tongues," the "gift of tears," or even "prophecy." Unfortunately, I believe such individuals mistake highly emotionally charged experiences for the genuine gifts of the Spirit. I actually think these things are really just protestant practices sneaking into Catholic circles.  

Unfortunately, I was raised with such an experience of the Catholic faith. When the emotions wore off, I fell into despair and doubt. In response, I had to seek out a more intellectual approach to faith, which eventually led to my appreciation of philosophy. Now I'm as traditional as they come. That being said, it was the charismatic movement that first encouraged me to take my faith seriously.

An unfortunate mix of things, but I think I'd rather have that than the "progressives" at my Catholic university. My introductory Systematic/Moral Theology course has us reading Elizabeth Johnson's She Who Is.
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2013, 12:39:45 AM »

Welll, it is kind of a strange mix, but groups like Lifeteen and Stuebenville speak of a "dynamic orthodoxy." They are intensely loyal to the magisterium, and take Church teaching very seriously. You will not see these individuals departing from Church teaching on the Sacraments, the Mass, the Priesthood, the Papacy, or Moral Theology. However, they believe that God wants to grant us charismatic gifts such as "speaking in tongues," the "gift of tears," or even "prophecy." Unfortunately, I believe such individuals mistake highly emotionally charged experiences for the genuine gifts of the Spirit. I actually think these things are really just protestant practices sneaking into Catholic circles.  

Unfortunately, I was raised with such an experience of the Catholic faith. When the emotions wore off, I fell into despair and doubt. In response, I had to seek out a more intellectual approach to faith, which eventually led to my appreciation of philosophy. Now I'm as traditional as they come. That being said, it was the charismatic movement that first encouraged me to take my faith seriously.

An unfortunate mix of things, but I think I'd rather have that than the "progressives" at University of Dayton. My introductory Systematic/Moral Theology course has us reading Elizabeth Johnson's She Who Is.
Heck yes! I would much rather someone be an individual who speaks in tongues and falls on the ground, yet still believes in the Holy Eucharist, than a theological liberal like Karl Rhaner.

That being said, a traditionalist would be better still.
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« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2013, 12:43:57 AM »

An unfortunate mix of things, but I think I'd rather have that than the "progressives" at University of Dayton. My introductory Systematic/Moral Theology course has us reading Elizabeth Johnson's She Who Is.
Heck yes! I would much rather someone be an individual who speaks in tongues and falls on the ground, yet still believes in the Holy Eucharist, than a theological liberal like Karl Rhaner.

That being said, a traditionalist would be better still.

Haven't seen any Real Presence deniers yet, but I've heard about a priest-professor in the Religious Studies department that apparently denies the physical resurrection of Christ. Undecided

Apparently the one real traditionalist professor had left just before I arrived. Sad times.
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2013, 12:47:16 AM »

You guys make it sound like "charismatic" expression and experience are dangerous and was something never part of Christianity. The book of Acts and other parts of the New Testament obviously show us otherwise that such things as tongues, healing, and prophecy were a dynamic part of the early Christian faith.  

For some reason they fell out of use mostly by the third century and were replaced with other forms of ascetic practice. I know it's fun to bash the "charismatics," but they really aren't doing anything besides bringing something back that once was a major focus of the early church.      
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2013, 12:47:38 AM »

Stepping up and merely doubting the validity, not even yet questioning and rejecting it, along with the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, ...
You know, not all Medjugorje believers are charismatic, but the Mejugorje cult seems have very deep roots in the charismatic Catholic movement.

My grandmother's Latin priest is very into the Medjugorje cult, as a pilgrimage there is what started him on the road to priesthood. He's strangely a very traditional priest; Gothic vestments, incense, cassock and surplice on male servers, plays Gregorian chant all day, had a perpetual adoration chapel built, and has started the congregation in the habit of saying the Angelus, a Perpetual Help devotion, the Divine Mercy, and the 43rd Psalm before Mass, and a rosary afterwards, and has printed the Leonine prayers on cards to be said after Mass.
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2013, 12:53:00 AM »

Stepping up and merely doubting the validity, not even yet questioning and rejecting it, along with the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, ...
You know, not all Medjugorje believers are charismatic, but the Mejugorje cult seems have very deep roots in the charismatic Catholic movement.

My grandmother's Latin priest is very into the Medjugorje cult, as a pilgrimage there is what started him on the road to priesthood. He's strangely a very traditional priest; Gothic vestments, incense, cassock and surplice on male servers, plays Gregorian chant all day, had a perpetual adoration chapel built, and has started the congregation in the habit of saying the Angelus, a Perpetual Help devotion, the Divine Mercy, and the 43rd Psalm before Mass, and a rosary afterwards, and has printed the Leonine prayers on cards to be said after Mass.
It's unclear to me why so many are so drawn to such a controversial apparition. It seems to me that the best policy is to stay with the mind of the Church. If one feels the need to be devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary in such a way, there are always the Church approved apparitions of Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe (to name a few).
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2013, 12:54:00 AM »

You guys make it sound like "charismatic" expression and experience are dangerous and was something never part of Christianity. The book of Acts and other parts of the New Testament obviously show us otherwise that such things as tongues, healing, and prophecy were a dynamic part of the early Christian faith.  

For some reason they fell out of use mostly by the third century and were replaced with other forms of ascetic practice. I know it's fun to bash the "charismatics," but they really aren't doing anything besides bringing something back that once was a major focus of the early church.      
I'm not convinced that what I have seen at charismatic events is what the early Church experienced.
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2013, 12:54:42 AM »

An unfortunate mix of things, but I think I'd rather have that than the "progressives" at University of Dayton. My introductory Systematic/Moral Theology course has us reading Elizabeth Johnson's She Who Is.
Heck yes! I would much rather someone be an individual who speaks in tongues and falls on the ground, yet still believes in the Holy Eucharist, than a theological liberal like Karl Rhaner.

That being said, a traditionalist would be better still.

Haven't seen any Real Presence deniers yet, but I've heard about a priest-professor in the Religious Studies department that apparently denies the physical resurrection of Christ. Undecided

Apparently the one real traditionalist professor had left just before I arrived. Sad times.
Is this university actually considered Catholic?
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2013, 01:00:03 AM »

Haven't seen any Real Presence deniers yet, but I've heard about a priest-professor in the Religious Studies department that apparently denies the physical resurrection of Christ. Undecided

Apparently the one real traditionalist professor had left just before I arrived. Sad times.
Is this university actually considered Catholic?

It doesn't have the "seal of approval" that it follows the Magisterium like Fransiscan in Stuebenville does, but yes it's Catholic. It's Marianist, specifically.
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2013, 01:12:24 AM »

You guys make it sound like "charismatic" expression and experience are dangerous and was something never part of Christianity. The book of Acts and other parts of the New Testament obviously show us otherwise that such things as tongues, healing, and prophecy were a dynamic part of the early Christian faith.  

For some reason they fell out of use mostly by the third century and were replaced with other forms of ascetic practice. I know it's fun to bash the "charismatics," but they really aren't doing anything besides bringing something back that once was a major focus of the early church.      
I'm not convinced that what I have seen at charismatic events is what the early Church experienced.


That’s quite a subjective answer. I’m sure the charismatic in return would say that they believe in the relevancy of prophecy for example and can point back to numerous historical and biblical proofs to defend their position. What I’m getting at is people here automatically discredit their beliefs, but why? Where is your proof that how they are practicing these ‘gifts’ is not how the early Christians did it?
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 01:23:20 AM »

That’s quite a subjective answer. I’m sure the charismatic in return would say that they believe in the relevancy of prophecy for example and can point back to numerous historical and biblical proofs to defend their position. What I’m getting at is people here automatically discredit their beliefs, but why? Where is your proof that how they are practicing these ‘gifts’ is not how the early Christians did it?

I think the problem is that their position necessarily requires that these "gifts" be a part of Tradition that failed to be passed on, and so they construct "proofs" to argue for re-inserting activities of the Holy Spirit back into Church praxis. I just don't think Tradition works that way, especially for it - which is supposed to be guarded by the Spirit - to miss out on something so important for Church life.
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 01:33:03 AM »

That’s quite a subjective answer. I’m sure the charismatic in return would say that they believe in the relevancy of prophecy for example and can point back to numerous historical and biblical proofs to defend their position. What I’m getting at is people here automatically discredit their beliefs, but why? Where is your proof that how they are practicing these ‘gifts’ is not how the early Christians did it?

I think the problem is that their position necessarily requires that these "gifts" be a part of Tradition that failed to be passed on, and so they construct "proofs" to argue for re-inserting activities of the Holy Spirit back into Church praxis. I just don't think Tradition works that way, especially for it - which is supposed to be guarded by the Spirit - to miss out on something so important for Church life.
^This, I agree.  
If what charismatics define as gifts of the Spirit were truly the gifts that we are to experience as Christians, then the Fathers would have spoke of such.
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2013, 01:42:25 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well. That's a bad argument in my opinion. What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?   
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« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2013, 01:46:41 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well. That's a bad argument in my opinion. What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?  
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« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2013, 01:49:22 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well. That's a bad argument in my opinion. What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?  
Do monks fall on the ground and babble inanely?

Possibly a few Fools for Christ have...
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« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2013, 01:51:03 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well.

However Saints didn't dance and raise their hand while listening to crappy Britpop music and mumbling absolute nonsense.
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« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2013, 01:52:36 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well.

Monastics, East or West, don't "speak in tongues," get "slain in the spirit," etc. I wonder if St. Ignatius Brianchaninov knew about Charismatics, or if it was too soon...

Quote
What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?   

On what basis would I believe that the Holy Spirit was bringing it back? And why would the Holy Spirit have deprived her gifts from the Church, and why would the Spirit have not safeguarded the charismata's Orthodoxy (or orthodoxy) in Tradition?

On the latter point, aren't we all, by virtue of our baptism, priest, prophet, and king? That would mean these charismata, if they truly belong to prophets, have been withheld from every baptized Christian - meaning over a thousand years of Christians have only partially shared in being prophet and not truly.
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« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2013, 02:06:03 AM »

I have heard about genuine tongues before. I'll agree with you on being "slain in the spirit," I'm strictly sticking within the guidelines of what was experienced and practiced by the Apostles and their followers in the early church. I find it weird that something that was commonly practiced and advocated for in the New Testament could fall by the wayside. I think many elements of "charismatic" phenomena are experienced in Orthodoxy, they are just expressed differently.   
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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2013, 02:14:12 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well. That's a bad argument in my opinion. What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?  
Do monks fall on the ground and babble inanely?

Just saw this and of course not! But most of them posess the gift of prophecy which is called one of the greatest gifts of all. I'm not advocating everything pentecostals do either, just examining the few gifts that were practiced by the early church.
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2013, 06:32:08 AM »

But most of them posess the gift of prophecy which is called one of the greatest gifts of all.

No, they don't. And charismatic worship ala the Pentecostals and Catholics has nothing to do with early church worship, although it does have some parallels with early heresies described by the Fathers.
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2013, 11:16:40 AM »

So they're essentially trying to sever orthopraxy from orthodoxy (or vice-versa)?

Glad to see you put a question mark at the end of that sentence.
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2013, 11:20:26 AM »

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well.

However Saints didn't dance and raise their hand while listening to crappy Britpop music and mumbling absolute nonsense.

^^Huh? Monastics have been known to manifest prophecy and similiar gifts as well. That's a bad argument in my opinion. What if the Holy Spirit was bringing it back into common practice for whatever reason, on what basis should you oppose it?  
Do monks fall on the ground and babble inanely?

Well, every area of church life has the potential of being abused. Would you assume that there are no genuine Marian apparitions if you learned that one of them was phony?
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2013, 11:29:32 AM »

Well, every area of church life has the potential of being abused. Would you assume that there are no genuine Marian apparitions if you learned that one of them was phony?

Rejecting Charismatic movement doesn't mean believing in Cessationism.
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2013, 12:56:31 PM »

Well, every area of church life has the potential of being abused. Would you assume that there are no genuine Marian apparitions if you learned that one of them was phony?

Rejecting Charismatic movement doesn't mean believing in Cessationism.

You absolutely right, I would never claim that it does.
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