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Poll
Question: Should all forms of dancing be banned?
Yes, all dancing arouses the passions.
No, folk dancing should be allowed.
No, only dirty dancing should be banned.
No, see my reply below.
I am not sure.

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Author Topic: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?  (Read 1865 times) Average Rating: 0
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Maria
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 08:59:50 PM »

Two said that all dancing arouses the passions. Really?
Even folk dancing?

I suppose it depends on how restrictively you're defining "the passions".  Lust isn't the only one that could be aroused by dancing.  

I guess the father of a young unmarried woman and/or her ex-boyfriend could become extremely angry and ready to kill if they witnessed such dirty dancing or any close romantic dancing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:00:19 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 09:04:06 PM »

Can we go back to talking about people being upset over women wearing mantillas in church?
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 09:05:55 PM »

Can we go back to talking about people being upset over women wearing mantillas in church?

Hey, let's talk about the dance costumes used in Greek Orthodox folk dancing.

The girls and ladies wear some fancy scarves. And since they are quite modest, I do not see how Greek Orthodox folk dancing could arouse the passions.

The guys sometimes wear those fancy white skirts, perhaps those cause a rise in passions among the young ladies. I was never tempted by them as I was always looking at their fancy footwork and trying to imitate their dance. I love dancing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:07:46 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 09:35:14 PM »

If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

I saw my first "twerk" at a GOA parish hall.  I will never forget it: I've tried.

Wow. That's something else.

I mean, I don't always conduct myself well in my parish hall, but whenever the urge to say something wildly inappropriate comes (as it does often), I can at least remind myself that I'm at church... maybe that isn't so much of an assurance anymore?

Nope.  The twerking occurred directly in front of me, and I was seated with priests.  

I've also seen married couples cuddling excessively on the line for Communion.  By excessive, I mean it was arguably the initial phase of foreplay.  But that was a different EO jurisdiction.

Sometimes, I'm scared of being in communion with you all.  Tongue      

I know you're joking, but let's be clear: it's those Coptic women you have to really watch out for!

Mor, what do you wear when you attend an EO church?
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 09:49:34 PM »

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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 09:59:26 PM »

I know you're joking, but let's be clear: it's those Coptic women you have to really watch out for!

Really?  I wouldn't have thought so, as they've ignored me for years.  Tongue

Quote
Mor, what do you wear when you attend an EO church?

I'm going to be serious because I'm not sure if you're joking.  These days, usually a shirt/tie/pants/nice shoes or, if I'm feeling lazy, a nice sweater instead of the shirt/tie, all else being the same. 

What do you wear when you attend an EO church? 
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 10:11:52 PM »

I know you're joking, but let's be clear: it's those Coptic women you have to really watch out for!

Really?  I wouldn't have thought so, as they've ignored me for years.  Tongue

Quote
Mor, what do you wear when you attend an EO church?

I'm going to be serious because I'm not sure if you're joking.  These days, usually a shirt/tie/pants/nice shoes or, if I'm feeling lazy, a nice sweater instead of the shirt/tie, all else being the same. 

What do you wear when you attend an EO church? 

Shirt, pants, black shoes, belt on Sundays. Admittedly, I wear jeans and a button-down shirt for Great Vespers since I'm usually coming straight from catechism then.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 10:16:33 PM »

Shirt, pants, black shoes, belt on Sundays. Admittedly, I wear jeans and a button-down shirt for Great Vespers since I'm usually coming straight from catechism then.

Admittedly, I'm more flexible with Saturday evening than with Sunday morning.  But on weekends I'm usually wearing clothes I would feel comfortable entering church with anyway.
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« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2013, 12:43:07 AM »

As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?

What is your definition of dirty dancing?

If you have ever watched Dancing with the Stars, whenever the judges rule a dance to be hot and sexy and fall off their chairs, that is probably dirty dancing.
I've never watched the show.  Perhaps I shall do so now for research purposes.

The next show will be on Monday night at 8 PM PDT on ABC. Not surprising.
I usually do not watch it, but my husband is addicted to it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 12:44:21 AM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2013, 01:51:59 AM »

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Music leads to dancing, and dancing inevitably leads to mixed bathing.



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« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2013, 01:58:57 AM »

Maria, in regard to your thought on folk dancing, it might depend on what kind. I attended an IOCC dinner six years back where part of the official entertainment included a group of Arab-American teenaged girls performing a  traditional middle eastern dance (belly dance) that I thought was quite provocative considering there were bishops and priests in attendance. And even though the girls were dressed modestly in long, middle eastern kaftans, the Greek bishop remarked afterwards that the Greek boys should get to know those Arab girls because that would be a great way to encourage Orthodox unity in America. The whole situation was just terribly embarrassing.
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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 02:26:25 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.
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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2013, 02:29:10 AM »

Maria, in regard to your thought on folk dancing, it might depend on what kind. I attended an IOCC dinner six years back where part of the official entertainment included a group of Arab-American teenaged girls performing a  traditional middle eastern dance (belly dance) that I thought was quite provocative considering there were bishops and priests in attendance. And even though the girls were dressed modestly in long, middle eastern kaftans, the Greek bishop remarked afterwards that the Greek boys should get to know those Arab girls because that would be a great way to encourage Orthodox unity in America. The whole situation was just terribly embarrassing.

I agree with you. After their events, the Melkites and Antiochians will typically have belly dancing before which the Bishop(s) and priests will leave for obvious reasons. It is embarrassing.

I do not consider the traditional Middle Eastern belly dancing to be part of European folk dancing.  When we studied American square dancing and European folk dancing in high school, belly dancing was not part of the curriculum.

By the way, there is an American Protestant convert to Greek Orthodoxy who is allowed to teach Middle Eastern belly dancing at a local Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH). The costumes that the children and young ladies wear are much too revealing with basically a bra and transparent skirt. Yes, the men of the parish enjoy it and want her classes to perform in the church hall for certain events, but the groups of ladies only perform when the priests and bishop(s) have excused themselves and are not in the hall.

At Pascha dinners, these gals would go to other nearby parishes when they are invited by their boyfriends. At those dances, they request certain Arabic songs. Therefore, they have introduced this type of dancing to the other Greek parishes, and it is becoming very popular. Indeed, even though it is very sensual, the parish councils will not do anything about it because most parish council members are nominal Orthodox Christians.

Once when a parish wide council meeting had just ended, I was standing outside chatting with some of the council members, and several of them mentioned that they had not been to confession in at least ten years and had no intention of doing so. The priest was trying to encourage them, but it was like talking to the wall.
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« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2013, 02:48:21 AM »

Could this be why some of the Church Fathers condemned dancing?

Certainly belly dancing has been done for thousands of years in the Middle East as Herod beheaded St. John the Forerunner due to the sensual dancing of Herodias' daughter when he told her that she could have whatever she asked including up to half of his kingdom.

If a saint could be beheaded, what else could happen when sensual dances are performed?
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2013, 02:52:10 AM »

If you don't like dancing, you're way too conservative.
conservative of what? way too stupid, rather.

I'm not into dancing much.
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« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2013, 02:57:51 AM »


I do not consider the traditional Middle Eastern belly dancing to be part of European folk dancing.  

Then you must be unaware of the dance called tsifteteli, part of the repertoire of traditional folk dances of many of the Greek islands, and of the Greeks from Asia Minor.
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« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2013, 03:01:52 AM »


I do not consider the traditional Middle Eastern belly dancing to be part of European folk dancing.  

Then you must be unaware of the dance called tsifteteli, part of the repertoire of traditional folk dances of many of the Greek islands, and of the Greeks from Asia Minor.

No, I am not aware of the dance called tsifteteli. The ladies who were in charge of teaching dancing to the Greek students only allowed modest dancing such as the grapevine. However, they also danced to the music, "Never on a Sunday," which is not the best of songs, but it is very popular.
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« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2013, 03:03:06 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.

ditto

quite revealing isn't it!
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« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

No; it makes us appear too fringe-group restorationist-y to the American public. I think that certain concessions need to strategically be made for the sake of appealing to potential American converts.
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« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

I think Miley Cyrus' VMA performance should suffice as an adequate example of dirty dancing  Grin

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« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

Anyhow, for the record, I voted "unsure."

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving. To some degree, it may even arouse more passion within because it seems exotic and requires use of the imagination. Seeing Orthodox women in head-coverings does this for me.

I think that we can either ban all dancing or allow all dancing. There is no in between. People are not going to follow exact rules and wherever there is dancing, there is alcohol. And wherever there is alcohol, no one is going to regard the rules anymore. Enforcing a "no dirty dancing" policy will be almost impossible.
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« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2013, 03:12:19 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.

ditto

quite revealing isn't it!

I meant your posts. Too surreal to be serious.

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving.

Agreed. False dichotomy between allegedly prudish folk and fallen modern cultures come from people who know hardly nothing about folk culture to begin with. I know some folk songs that would make Cyrus blush.
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« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2013, 03:49:54 AM »

Do you mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0UPgxr8RrMg
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« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2013, 04:31:24 AM »

I wish people would stop taking their cues on what Latin and ballroom dance is like from Dancing with the Stars. Really, it's embarrassing.

The dances on DWTS (and its British version, Strictly Come Dancing) are performance pieces optimised for competition, not good-time social occasions. They are embellished to within an inch of their lives for entertainment. Do you believe that all those lifts and spins are possible when you're sharing the dance floor with twenty other couples? Or that in Latin America, where the samba and the cha-cha-cha actually are as good as folk dances, people put on spandex and sequins to dance? You might as well believe real life is as Hollywood dictates.

I actually believe that ballroom dancing should be encouraged, perhaps even by the parish offering classes. Learning some intricate footwork leaves little chance for bumping and grinding. I wouldn't find either this or this (both from the current Strictly series) inappropriate for a church-hosted function.
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« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2013, 04:45:07 AM »

I am not exactly sure what the Orthodox halls and festivals are. Sounds like they should be banned.  Smiley
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« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2013, 10:34:37 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.

ditto

quite revealing isn't it!

I meant your posts. Too surreal to be serious.

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving.

Agreed. False dichotomy between allegedly prudish folk and fallen modern cultures come from people who know hardly nothing about folk culture to begin with. I know some folk songs that would make Cyrus blush.

+1  There is a difference between fun and licentiousness. Believe it or not, fun is not discouraged by our faith for those of us who are living in the real world.

Excess is always a problem.

Use the head the good Lord gave you to figure it out. It's there for more than to place a hat or mitre upon.

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« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2013, 10:43:14 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.

ditto

quite revealing isn't it!

I meant your posts. Too surreal to be serious.

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving.

Agreed. False dichotomy between allegedly prudish folk and fallen modern cultures come from people who know hardly nothing about folk culture to begin with. I know some folk songs that would make Cyrus blush.

+1  There is a difference between fun and licentiousness. Believe it or not, fun is not discouraged by our faith for those of us who are living in the real world.

Excess is always a problem.

Use the head the good Lord gave you to figure it out. It's there for more than to place a hat or mitre upon.



I agree. I believe Orthodoxy should not really mix the dances with Orthodoxy (as in liturgical life). The parish can have parties and dances if they wish, but they would not be named Orthodox. Whether the dances arouse passions, this can be a different and interesting (absolutely funny Smiley!) discussion.
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« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »

Reading this thread with my jaws opened.

ditto

quite revealing isn't it!

I meant your posts. Too surreal to be serious.

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving.

Agreed. False dichotomy between allegedly prudish folk and fallen modern cultures come from people who know hardly nothing about folk culture to begin with. I know some folk songs that would make Cyrus blush.

+1  There is a difference between fun and licentiousness. Believe it or not, fun is not discouraged by our faith for those of us who are living in the real world.

Excess is always a problem.

Use the head the good Lord gave you to figure it out. It's there for more than to place a hat or mitre upon.



I agree. I believe Orthodoxy should not really mix the dances with Orthodoxy (as in liturgical life). The parish can have parties and dances if they wish, but they would not be named Orthodox. Whether the dances arouse passions, this can be a different and interesting (absolutely funny Smiley!) discussion.


I've never seen folk dancers described as performing 'Orthodox Dances.'

I've seen and enjoyed Ukrainian, Rusyn, Slovak, Hungarian, Romanian, Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian Dance Groups at Orthodox parishes (and Greek Catholic ones as well) but never did they have any religious connotations ascribed to them. Often these groups are part of the community outreach, youth activities or family based services provided by the parish. In some places they are sponsored by fraternal associations loosely associated with the parish or the Diocese (like GOYA, UOL, FOCA or ACRY),  but never have I seen any dance choreographed to represent the teachings of the church here or in Europe in any eastern Christian church.

Is this a common misunderstanding among convert? I can't see how that could be, but then again, nothing in America surprises me any more when it comes to matters of misunderstanding the religion of one's own church and that of others.

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« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2013, 11:23:16 AM »


All Ukrainians (in good health/non-clergy) dance.  Once you hear the tunes start, your feet just come alive and you are off!

However, most Ukrainian folk dances do not ignite the passions in a way akin to what was mentioned above.

In fact, it's just good old camaraderie!

As for them being called "Orthodox" dances....never heard such a thing.  The same Ukrainian dances are performed by all Ukrainians, regardless of which Faith they adhere to, if any.

It's a cultural thing, not a Faith based activity.

....and the costumes are always modest.  Ukrainian national dress has everything well covered and is loose fitting.  Very proper.

Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bUC15XobE

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« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2013, 11:26:45 AM »

Anyhow, for the record, I voted "unsure."

Maria says that some "traditional folk" forms of dancing don't arouse the passions. I disagree. If you're a male with a pulse, seeing a young female rapidly moving her body around will arouse the passions in you regardless of whatever she's wearing or however she's moving. To some degree, it may even arouse more passion within because it seems exotic and requires use of the imagination. Seeing Orthodox women in head-coverings does this for me.

I think that we can either ban all dancing or allow all dancing. There is no in between. People are not going to follow exact rules and wherever there is dancing, there is alcohol. And wherever there is alcohol, no one is going to regard the rules anymore. Enforcing a "no dirty dancing" policy will be almost impossible.

Allowing dancing without the dirty dancing is like allowing one to post here without rudeness.
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« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2013, 11:28:56 AM »


I think that would be the ultimate goal in both.
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« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2013, 02:48:41 PM »

I have a friend who is a professional dancer who quietly declined when someone suggested she bellydance at a reception/fundraiser coinciding with a bishop’s visit.

She ultimately ended up doing some kind of dance involving very long scarves while wearing a conservative outfit. All of the children around joined in. Much mirth was had.
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« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2013, 02:51:43 PM »


Good for her!
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« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2013, 03:03:42 PM »

I have a friend who is a professional dancer who quietly declined when someone suggested she bellydance at a reception/fundraiser coinciding with a bishop’s visit.

She ultimately ended up doing some kind of dance involving very long scarves while wearing a conservative outfit. All of the children around joined in. Much mirth was had.


Dancing can be done modestly.

Posting can be done without rudeness and without a mean spirit.

We are called by Christ to be his disciples, to reach theosis, and ultimately to be heirs of the heavenly kingdom.

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« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2013, 04:22:12 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.
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« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2013, 06:09:25 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.

God willing, someday you will not be a teenager or young adult male. Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2013, 06:13:43 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.

God willing, someday you will not be a teenager or young adult male. Smiley
+1

JamesR, no offense, dancing does not excite me.  Maybe 17 yr old kids will be attracted given their relatively higher libido, but once you are in your 30s, I'm way more excited over the prospect of eating a piece of pie or some cookies than I am over some girl dancing.  Unless she is scantily clothed.  Then that is going to catch my attention unfortunately.  Sad
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2013, 06:21:00 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.

When I took a tour of a Catholic home for the aged many years ago with a group of young ladies who were thinking of volunteering or working there, the nun in charge told us, "These elderly men may look old, but they are certainly not dead." She chuckled and then told us to be very careful.

When I was student teaching, we were told to dress very modestly and always wear a vest or jacket over our blouse because some autistic boys, teens, and men will try to touch a woman who is not appropriately covered.
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2013, 06:24:31 PM »


All Ukrainians (in good health/non-clergy) dance.  Once you hear the tunes start, your feet just come alive and you are off!

However, most Ukrainian folk dances do not ignite the passions in a way akin to what was mentioned above.

In fact, it's just good old camaraderie!

As for them being called "Orthodox" dances....never heard such a thing.  The same Ukrainian dances are performed by all Ukrainians, regardless of which Faith they adhere to, if any.

It's a cultural thing, not a Faith based activity.

....and the costumes are always modest.  Ukrainian national dress has everything well covered and is loose fitting.  Very proper.

Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74bUC15XobE



Yes, the Greek and Ukrainian national dress used in traditional folk dancing is usually very modest. It can be quite a lot of fun.
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2013, 07:24:53 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.

God willing, someday you will not be a teenager or young adult male. Smiley
+1

JamesR, no offense, dancing does not excite me.  Maybe 17 yr old kids will be attracted given their relatively higher libido, but once you are in your 30s, I'm way more excited over the prospect of eating a piece of pie or some cookies than I am over some girl dancing.  Unless she is scantily clothed.  Then that is going to catch my attention unfortunately.  Sad

Man, this true.  Yeah, if I'm having dessert with my wife, I could care less about some random girl dancing like a fool.
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« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2013, 07:26:12 PM »

Maria, you don't get it; you're not a man. There is no such thing as "modest" dancing. Whenever a woman is moving her body around it is going to inflame passions within us males. I don't care if she's wearing an astronaut space suit; men are going to be attracted.

God willing, someday you will not be a teenager or young adult male. Smiley
+1

JamesR, no offense, dancing does not excite me.  Maybe 17 yr old kids will be attracted given their relatively higher libido, but once you are in your 30s, I'm way more excited over the prospect of eating a piece of pie or some cookies than I am over some girl dancing.  Unless she is scantily clothed.  Then that is going to catch my attention unfortunately.  Sad

Man, this true.  Yeah, if I'm having dessert with my wife, I could care less about some random girl dancing like a fool.

Yes, my husband is delighted to have a piece of apple pie a la mode.
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« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2013, 07:37:27 PM »

Lets see , you can get married in the church , but no passionate dancing afterwards, I played drums all over Chicago in greek bands and in Church halls, that would be thrown out with the Bishop if it were made a rule.

I think that God already said to not only let them dance and drink, but give the drunks more wine after it runs out.
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« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2013, 07:41:26 PM »

Lets see , you can get married in the church , but no passionate dancing afterwards, I played drums all over Chicago in greek bands and in Church halls, that would be thrown out with the Bishop if it were made a rule.

I think that God already said to not only let them dance and drink, but give the drunks more wine after it runs out.

I have not heard that interpretation.
While St. Paul said that a little wine is good for the stomach, he also reminded us to be sober and avoid drunkenness.
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« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2013, 08:00:17 PM »

Lets see , you can get married in the church , but no passionate dancing afterwards, I played drums all over Chicago in greek bands and in Church halls, that would be thrown out with the Bishop if it were made a rule.

I think that God already said to not only let them dance and drink, but give the drunks more wine after it runs out.

I have not heard that interpretation.
While St. Paul said that a little wine is good for the stomach, he also reminded us to be sober and avoid drunkenness.

The gospel says that the wine ran out and then he filled the huge canisters with the best wine after they had too much already, and not only that but his mother told him to do it.

I myself hardly ever drink, but the issue is that God wants us to enjoy ourselves in moderation, meaning that you are not drinking the day after the wedding, and are not a drunken person all the time.

Jesus Changes Water Into Wine

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4“Woman,a why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.b

7Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
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« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2013, 08:06:30 PM »

...'Orthodox Dances.'..

Orthodox liturgical dancers? IS INNOVATIONIST OUTRAGE!
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