Poll

Should all forms of dancing be banned?

Yes, all dancing arouses the passions.
No, folk dancing should be allowed.
No, only dirty dancing should be banned.
No, see my reply below.
I am not sure.

Author Topic: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?  (Read 5880 times)

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Offline Maria

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Should all forms of dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with modest traditional Greek folk dancing as is done in Greek Orthodox Churches.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 06:08:22 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 06:07:05 PM »
Banned in what way and for whom?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 06:08:42 PM »
And who is doing the banning?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »
And who is doing the banning?

Good question. The parish council and the priest? The hierarchs?

Frankly, I do not see anyone banning dancing of any kind.

This whole idea of banning dancing would become too delicate an issue. If people feared that they might be tapped on the shoulder and asked to leave a dance, this action might chase people away from the church permanently.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 06:34:25 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 06:11:05 PM »
Movie Trailer Voice: In a world in which really bad films become relevant . . .




January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 06:11:59 PM »

It would be too delicate, and would chase people away.

IOW, the ban itself would create a dance?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 06:12:12 PM »
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:D :D :D

I LOLed for real.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 06:14:00 PM »
Is the prohibition on any dance on church property or anywhere and at all times?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 06:16:54 PM »
Is the prohibition on any dance on church property or anywhere and at all times?

Hey, this is not a scientific poll.

But if you read the thread title, you would know that I referred to church events on church property.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »
on church property, in early fifties, stalinist romania:
Holy martyr Proterius, patriarch of Alexandria,  pray for us!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 06:34:22 PM »
on church property, in early fifties, stalinist romania:


Oh man, those ankles are riling up my passions real bad.

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 06:42:10 PM »

It would be too delicate, and would chase people away.

IOW, the ban itself would create a dance?

I bet it would! Now they would need a band to play this banned.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 07:05:59 PM »
on church property, in early fifties, stalinist romania:


Definitely 50s in style. Nice shot.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 07:06:49 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline WPM

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 07:11:40 PM »
If you don't like dancing, you're way too conservative.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 07:13:09 PM »
If you don't like dancing, you're way too conservative.
conservative of what? way too stupid, rather.
Holy martyr Proterius, patriarch of Alexandria,  pray for us!

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 07:27:04 PM »
If you don't like dancing, you're way too conservative.
conservative of what? way too stupid, rather.

Many Baptists do not think that dancing of any kind is acceptable for a Christian.

Did not some of the Church Fathers also condemn dancing?
Or was dancing related to prostitution at that time?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 07:27:45 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 07:28:37 PM »
Many Baptists do not think that dancing of any kind is acceptable for a Christian.
Nor drinking, but they do both in secret.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 07:29:25 PM »
it's bc dancing leads to sex; and sex to dancing.
Holy martyr Proterius, patriarch of Alexandria,  pray for us!

Offline Gamliel

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 07:35:43 PM »
If dancing was the worst thing we had to worry about, we would be in paradise.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Should dancing be banned?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 07:54:33 PM »
Movie Trailer Voice: In a world in which really bad films become relevant . . .





I'm afraid orthonorm won the thread.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 07:55:20 PM »
As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 08:22:38 PM »
As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?

What is your definition of dirty dancing?

If you have ever watched Dancing with the Stars, whenever the judges rule a dance to be hot and sexy and fall off their chairs, that is probably dirty dancing.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline biro

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 08:23:35 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 08:25:21 PM »
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline biro

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 08:25:50 PM »
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Too late. :)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 08:26:58 PM »
As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?

What is your definition of dirty dancing?

If you have ever watched Dancing with the Stars, whenever the judges rule a dance to be hot and sexy and fall off their chairs, that is probably dirty dancing.
I've never watched the show.  Perhaps I shall do so now for research purposes.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 08:29:50 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

However, worse than dancing at church, are the movies that Hollywood continues to pump out. Movies with a PG or PG-13 rating make some Orthodox Christian grandma's and great grandma's blush. When I talked with our Greek Matriarch a few weeks ago, she said that she refuses to watch the recent movies. She finds that they lack entertainment value with all the shocking incidents portrayed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 08:31:19 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 08:32:50 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

However, worse than dancing at church, are the movies that Hollywood continues to pump out. Movies with a PG or PG-13 rating make some Orthodox Christian grandma's and great grandma's blush. When I talked with our Greek Matriarch a few weeks ago, she said that she refuses to watch the recent movies. She finds that they lack entertainment value with all the shocking incidents portrayed.
This happens at your Greek Festivals?!?!?  :o :o :o



I would probably have an issue with that.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 08:33:53 PM »
As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?

What is your definition of dirty dancing?

If you have ever watched Dancing with the Stars, whenever the judges rule a dance to be hot and sexy and fall off their chairs, that is probably dirty dancing.
I've never watched the show.  Perhaps I shall do so now for research purposes.
You should read the thread on dancing in One World Orthodoxy or whatever on the less sane board.

There is a link somewhere in the rudeness thread a few pages back. Yes, I am being a lazy internetter.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 08:34:26 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

However, worse than dancing at church, are the movies that Hollywood continues to pump out. Movies with a PG or PG-13 rating make some Orthodox Christian grandma's and great grandma's blush. When I talked with our Greek Matriarch a few weeks ago, she said that she refuses to watch the recent movies. She finds that they lack entertainment value with all the shocking incidents portrayed.
This happens at your Greek Festivals?!?!?  :o :o :o



I would probably have an issue with that.

Just during the Weddings. They put their clothes on for the receptions.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 08:36:52 PM »
Orthodox Jews separate dancing by sex; they even put up a screen to prevent the one sex (the men) from peaking on the other sex.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 08:38:04 PM »
Orthodox Jews separate dancing by sex; they even put up a screen to prevent the one sex (the men) from peaking on the other sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a rule about hearing the opposite sex sing?
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Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 08:39:39 PM »
As clarification, what is "dirty dancing"?  I assume you are not referring to the movie?

What is your definition of dirty dancing?

If you have ever watched Dancing with the Stars, whenever the judges rule a dance to be hot and sexy and fall off their chairs, that is probably dirty dancing.
I've never watched the show.  Perhaps I shall do so now for research purposes.

My mother watches this faithfully.  Anytime I've been forced to watch it with her on visits, it's an ascetic podvig on so many levels: custody of the eyes, patient endurance of wrongs, respect for parents, etc. 

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 08:40:14 PM »
on church property, in early fifties, stalinist romania:


 Except they ain't dancing.  Is that you in the center?
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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 08:42:35 PM »
Orthodox Jews separate dancing by sex; they even put up a screen to prevent the one sex (the men) from peaking on the other sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a rule about hearing the opposite sex sing?

Men cannot hear women sing, but women can hear men sing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 08:42:43 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

I saw my first "twerk" at a GOA parish hall.  I will never forget it: I've tried.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 08:43:11 PM »
Orthodox Jews separate dancing by sex; they even put up a screen to prevent the one sex (the men) from peaking on the other sex.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there also a rule about hearing the opposite sex sing?

Men cannot hear women sing, but women can hear men sing.

Ah, I remember that now. Thank you.
O Virgin pure, immaculate, O Lady Theotokos
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O fleece bedewed with every grace, O Virgin Queen and Mother
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 08:46:48 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

I saw my first "twerk" at a GOA parish hall.  I will never forget it: I've tried.

Wow. That's something else.

I mean, I don't always conduct myself well in my parish hall, but whenever the urge to say something wildly inappropriate comes (as it does often), I can at least remind myself that I'm at church... maybe that isn't so much of an assurance anymore?

Offline Maria

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 08:49:50 PM »
Yes, all dancing arouses the passions.    - 2 (14.3%)
No, folk dancing should be allowed.    - 3 (21.4%)
No, only dirty dancing should be banned.    - 6 (42.9%)
No, see my reply below.    - 3 (21.4%)
I am not sure.    - 0 (0%)
   
Total Voters: 11

I am posting the poll results for those who have not yet voted.

Two said that all dancing arouses the passions. Really?
Even folk dancing?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 08:54:38 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

I saw my first "twerk" at a GOA parish hall.  I will never forget it: I've tried.

Wow. That's something else.

I mean, I don't always conduct myself well in my parish hall, but whenever the urge to say something wildly inappropriate comes (as it does often), I can at least remind myself that I'm at church... maybe that isn't so much of an assurance anymore?

Nope.  The twerking occurred directly in front of me, and I was seated with priests.  

I've also seen married couples cuddling excessively on the line for Communion.  By excessive, I mean it was arguably the initial phase of foreplay.  But that was a different EO jurisdiction.

Sometimes, I'm scared of being in communion with you all.  :P      

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 08:56:04 PM »
Two said that all dancing arouses the passions. Really?
Even folk dancing?

I suppose it depends on how restrictively you're defining "the passions".  Lust isn't the only one that could be aroused by dancing. 

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 08:56:26 PM »
If that ever happened in a festival at my parish, I'd be pretty surprised.

At our local Greek Orthodox Church, at the worker's party which follows the festival, some wild dancing occurs as the party winds down. Since the priests have left, some couples really go at it. Nobody does anything.

I saw my first "twerk" at a GOA parish hall.  I will never forget it: I've tried.

Wow. That's something else.

I mean, I don't always conduct myself well in my parish hall, but whenever the urge to say something wildly inappropriate comes (as it does often), I can at least remind myself that I'm at church... maybe that isn't so much of an assurance anymore?

Nope.  The twerking occurred directly in front of me, and I was seated with priests.  

I've also seen married couples cuddling excessively on the line for Communion.  By excessive, I mean it was arguably the initial phase of foreplay.  But that was a different EO jurisdiction.

Sometimes, I'm scared of being in communion with you all.  :P      

Lord have mercy.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 08:56:57 PM »
That does remind me of a joke folks used to tell about how Baptists frowned on pre-marital sex because it might lead to such carnal desires as dancing.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 08:57:57 PM »
Quote
Except they ain't dancing.  Is that you in the center?
what do you think they dressed up for? every sunday-lent excluded- there was dancing in the churchyard.
Holy martyr Proterius, patriarch of Alexandria,  pray for us!

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Should dancing be banned in Orthodox Christian Halls and Festivals?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 08:58:28 PM »
Two said that all dancing arouses the passions. Really?
Even folk dancing?

I suppose it depends on how restrictively you're defining "the passions".  Lust isn't the only one that could be aroused by dancing. 

Or lack of it.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)