Author Topic: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida  (Read 3519 times)

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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2013, 11:41:34 AM »
Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season.  

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.
This is what I've seen done in the parishes I've visited
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2013, 01:24:01 PM »
Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season.  

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.
This is what I've seen done in the parishes I've visited

That is correct. However, when I was in his diocese Bishop Basil told me not to use the hand cross during the Paschal season. I have seen priests from Syria and Lebanon use a small Gospel to bless the people in place of the hand cross during the Paschal season. The rubrics in the Liturgikon state that one should bless with the Paschal candle during the Paschal season.

Fr. John

Offline augustin717

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2013, 01:34:13 PM »
In Romania the gospel book is always out for kissing alongside the icon on the small stand in the middle of the Church.

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2013, 01:50:37 PM »
Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris

Offline mike

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2013, 03:46:55 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

We have one in my parish.  This isn't the one, but it is the same idea:

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2013, 10:48:05 AM »
^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2013, 11:13:05 AM »
Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris

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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2013, 11:14:03 AM »
^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.

Yes all of our crosses are double sides like that including the one that stands at the altar.  At midnight on Pascha it is flipped and reveals an empty cross with the cloth hanging from it. 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2013, 11:21:32 AM »
^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.

Yes all of our crosses are double sides like that including the one that stands at the altar.  At midnight on Pascha it is flipped and reveals an empty cross with the cloth hanging from it. 

Yes, I forgot about the cloth. That too.

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2013, 11:35:35 AM »
Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris

There is a Byzantine notation set available now for, at least, Vespers using the Kazan text and melodies.
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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2013, 05:56:22 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  ;)
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Offline mike

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2013, 06:02:26 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  ;)

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:02:39 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2013, 06:10:57 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  ;)

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193

And yet, in none of them did you see a double-sided priest's cross, yet they exist.  :police:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2013, 06:15:27 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  ;)

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193

And yet, in none of them did you see a double-sided priest's cross, yet they exist.  :police:

In Ukrainian, and with it Rusyn, tradition, the Paschal Blessing is done with the hand cross. Many of the faithful probably would never look closely enough to notice the two sides.

I tire of the 'this is the right way, you're doing it wrong' based upon separate cultural development over two millenniums in some parts of the world and at least one in the other. Most of this stuff is  cultural 'window dressing' and doesn't go to the heart of rubrics, ritual or dogma. Yet it is one of the real obstacles to organic Orthodox unity in America at least......People will line up to fight to the spiritual death over such matters.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:15:53 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2013, 08:24:52 PM »
Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  ;)

Every Eastern Orthodox hand cross that I have ever seen has two sides, one for the Resurrection and one of the Crucifixion. However, I was told by Bishop Basil not to use the hand cross during the Pascal Season. I have not asked my current Bishop, Bishop Antoun about the matter.

Fr. John W. Morris