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Author Topic: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida  (Read 2705 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nephi
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« on: October 21, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »

So I came across these videos from an Antiochian parish in Florida and I have some questions about a few of them:

http://youtu.be/QBmv_tYao6c?t=6m16s
1) Is it little-t tradition for priests to face the parish and raise their hands during the Our Father?
2) I've never seen a priest wearing a chotki before while serving, is this common?

http://youtu.be/Ex_WH-iiW9o?t=3m4s
3) I've seen female servers that held the communion cloth (whatever it's called), but I've never seen any girls dressed up like altar boys before. They also seem to come out from behind the iconostasis at a couple points. Is this just this parish or is there more of this in Florida?
4) What are the little headcoverings the girls/women are wearing? The rest of the video shows others wearing small, different colored, headcoverings that almost seem almost the size and placement (of course not shape) of a yamaka.
5) Is it a common practice, Antiochian or otherwise, to allow non-partaking folks to come up to kiss the chalice/receive bread in the same line as people partaking?

http://youtu.be/UtnFfj-QQgw?t=6m28s
6) I've never seen an Antiochian priest wear a hat like this. Is it an honorific or what?


Not trying to judge or anything; just curious about what seem to be pretty apparent differences in another Antiochian parish.
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 10:12:10 PM »

Not sure about FL, but in my parish:

1. The priest does the same exact thing during the Lord's Prayer
2. Our priest does not wear a chotki, at least not one that I've seen

5. In our parish, you can go up and kiss the chalice and receive prosphora even if you are are still a catechumen. You just wait in like just like everyone else.  Most people don't though.

I don't know about the other things.
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 11:03:06 PM »

The hat shown in the video is just a kalimavkion, which can be worn by any priest (and sometimes deacons) in the Greek tradition. You don't see it too much in American Antiochian churches, but you will see it in photos or videos from overseas. The local Greek priest in my city wears one.

The deacons in this photo are wearing them:


Photo of martyred Syrian priest, Fr. Fadi Jamil Haddad wearing one as well:
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »

^ Thanks. I've seen them in other traditions, but like you said not in American Antiochians which piqued my curiosity. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen an American Antiochian wearing one in pictures/videos or in person, only overseas or possibly visiting from overseas.

TBH, I didn't know before this thread that they were even worn by non-monastics/deacons. angel My knowledge of hats is pretty much non-existent.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 11:38:49 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 11:44:44 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.

It was all abnormal? Not being sarcastic or snide.
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 08:11:23 AM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 08:14:42 AM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.
Wait, what?!?  I was always told by my priest that a female may not go behind the iconostasis.  How can they be altar servers?  Huh
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 08:15:00 AM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
 
It is Orlando...people make pilgrimage to receive blessings from a mouse.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 08:41:59 AM »

Couple of things that I observed.

1. There seems to be an attempt to congregational singing.
2. The girls do not enter or exit through the Deacon's Doors but a door further out. This may mean that they do not enter the altar area at all.
3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

Overall, my impression is of an attempt for the greater involvement of the congregation. And that is a good thing IMHO.
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 08:53:06 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 08:54:48 AM »

Yeah, the colour is pretty ugly.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 10:51:42 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 10:58:01 AM »

3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.

Which rubrics? 

Quote
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.

I've seen that too, but usually it's a sung version of the prayers.  Why direct recitation? 

Quote
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

What was unusual about it other than the colour, which appeared to me to be "UPS Brown"? 
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 10:59:23 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.

It depends on the tradition. Polyphonic choirs became popular across Russia into Ukraine and neighboring areas and the same were brought proudly to America by both Orthodox and Greek Catholic immigrants. The Rusyns and Ukrainian Galicians have very similar chant traditions which are distinct from Kievan style chant. I thought Romanians have their own distinct chant tradition as well? I posted a link to a Serbian chanted Akathist the other day, it was a sort of bridge between Byzantine and a more Slavic sounding musical style.

 You hear more chant singing these days as choir directors and members age out and there is less interest in the choir as a club. Not a generalization, but an observation.
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »

3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.

Which rubrics? 

Quote
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.

I've seen that too, but usually it's a sung version of the prayers.  Why direct recitation? 

Quote
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

What was unusual about it other than the colour, which appeared to me to be "UPS Brown"? 

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 11:10:04 AM »

This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

It doesn't sound terrible at all.  But it does mean that you have to grow in your understanding of what "participating" is.  In this regard, the point orthonorm made above is relevant. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 11:13:50 AM »

This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

It doesn't sound terrible at all.  But it does mean that you have to grow in your understanding of what "participating" is.  In this regard, the point orthonorm made above is relevant. 
Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:04 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I prefer chanting to reading, but there are some people who should just always read.  Smiley  

I would've thought that the "transition" to reading in ACROD was in part due to your closeness with the Greeks, but I've never heard of it in the OCA.  Then again, maybe things have changed, I haven't attended Liturgy in an OCA parish in years.  I miss it sometimes.  
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:49 AM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 11:16:26 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I prefer chanting to reading, but there are some people who should just always read.  Smiley  

I would've thought that the "transition" to reading in ACROD was in part due to your closeness with the Greeks, but I've never heard of it in the OCA.  Then again, maybe things have changed, I haven't attended Liturgy in an OCA parish in years.  I miss it sometimes.  

WE don't read in our parish or in most of the east coast parishes, but in the midwest it seems to have caught on.
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 11:19:00 AM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
Ahh, I found it.

This exchange seems to rely on a relative minimalist understanding of liturgy.

How do you mean?  

That somehow a member of the Church is not involved in the liturgy if they are not in a specific place and doing specific things. Carl's post would suggest that a person doing catechetical work is somehow absent from the liturgy.

Maybe for pastoral reasons the same person shouldn't be teaching every Sunday until eternity, but it doesn't mean someone preparing persons to be received into the Church are absent from the liturgy. Even death or sickness doesn't bar a person from that work.

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 11:20:43 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".

I love anecdotes like this, even when they make me spit out my coffee due to the ensuing laughter. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 11:26:26 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.

That is the case in my (OCA) church as well. Incidentally, the troparia are printed in our bulletin so that folks can sing along with the choir.
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 11:32:58 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

Like this?
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 11:35:59 AM »

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...

Perhaps.  I'm used to congregational singing in two or three languages, serving at the altar, etc., so when I attend churches where I don't know the language, or the music, the rubrics, or all of the above, it's a bit of an adjustment.  It's not "ideal" for me, but I never think less of it.  Basically, we need to learn to pray the Liturgy and not just pray at Liturgy.

For instance, after having visited Armenian parishes on and off for several years, I know the basic order of the Liturgy (so I don't usually get lost), but I don't know the language or how to sing.  When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need), am following along with the prayers of the priest and deacons, and making all the responses silently or in English under my breath if no one is near me.  During the prosomide and the anaphora, I remember the names of people I want to pray for.  During Matins, when I really have no idea what's going on, I just read some Psalms.  I'd prefer to know Armenian, sing Armenian, etc., but if you can pray the Liturgy--if you know what the Liturgy is doing at any given moment and can apply yourself to that task prayerfully--you can transcend those limitations even while learning what you need to know in order to participate more thoroughly.    
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 11:38:14 AM »

Like this?

Damn you, man!  I just had take out food for breakfast, I have to eat healthy for the rest of the day, and now I want Chinese food!  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 11:44:31 AM »

Like this?

Damn you, man!  I just had take out food for breakfast, I have to eat healthy for the rest of the day, and now I want Chinese food!  Tongue

So eat some healthy Chinese food! Wink

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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 11:51:17 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

Like this?

Just a bit less intense.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 12:02:20 PM »

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'

Fifty years ago?  That still happens today! 
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »

So eat some healthy Chinese food! Wink

Nothing I like is healthy.  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'

Fifty years ago?  That still happens today! 

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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 12:39:51 PM »

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 12:56:39 PM »

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The goal is to pray.  If having the book in your hand helps you pay attention, follow along, etc., then I would keep using it.  But the Liturgy is more than just the words prayed and sung aloud: it includes prayers read silently, gestures, rites, movements, etc.  So I would say it's good, even when using a book, to "watch" the Liturgy as well.  This becomes easier if you've committed parts or all of the Liturgy largely to memory, but can be done even while using the book. 

Eventually, if you attend services enough and are paying some amount of active attention, you'll pick up enough that you won't need the book, at least not all the time.  I've had this experience with five different liturgical rites, and I'm not particularly bright, so I'm sure anyone can do it with time and some effort. 

I've heard traditional Roman Catholics give the same advice regarding the Tridentine Mass as you received from the WR parish you visited.  I think it's good advice when experiencing something new.  The easiest thing is to watch.  If you don't know much about the rite, following along in the book will get annoying.  If you watch enough to get a sense of the order, the book becomes easier to use.  And when you get used to that, eventually you need the book less and less.       
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 03:33:15 PM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I can't imagine reading aloud in unison. I'm generally the one blessed to read the Epistle and far too often as I look at the congregation, everyone has their eyes glued to the bulletin. I guess it's to see if I make a mistake. But sometimes I think that instead of intoning "The reading is from the Epistle of St Paul to the Romans/etc.", I should intone "The reading is from page three in your bulletin. Follow along."  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 03:34:23 PM »

We read prayer before the Eucharist aloud.

AFAIR, Creed is read not sung during St. Andrew Canon.
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 05:15:15 PM »

I can't imagine reading aloud in unison. I'm generally the one blessed to read the Epistle and far too often as I look at the congregation, everyone has their eyes glued to the bulletin. I guess it's to see if I make a mistake. But sometimes I think that instead of intoning "The reading is from the Epistle of St Paul to the Romans/etc.", I should intone "The reading is from page three in your bulletin. Follow along."  Smiley

That would be a hoot to see and hear!
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 10:36:56 PM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.

Some may, but by no means do all allow them. Some Antiochian priests commune anyone with a pulse and some host Bingo in the church hall, but this is not to say these things are allowed.
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 10:37:28 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
 
It is Orlando...people make pilgrimage to receive blessings from a mouse.

Florida is a strange place.
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 10:39:59 PM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

Who says you wouldn't be participating? Would you be praying or playing Angry Birds?
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 10:42:43 PM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
Ahh, I found it.

This exchange seems to rely on a relative minimalist understanding of liturgy.

How do you mean?  

That somehow a member of the Church is not involved in the liturgy if they are not in a specific place and doing specific things. Carl's post would suggest that a person doing catechetical work is somehow absent from the liturgy.

Maybe for pastoral reasons the same person shouldn't be teaching every Sunday until eternity, but it doesn't mean someone preparing persons to be received into the Church are absent from the liturgy. Even death or sickness doesn't bar a person from that work.

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...

You are still looking at doing.
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 10:45:20 PM »

Who says you wouldn't be participating? Would you be praying or playing Angry Birds?

I never understood how that game got so popular.  I tried it and thought it was exceedingly stupid after four minutes.  I remember having more fun with Sonic the Hedgehog. 
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 10:45:26 PM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".

I love anecdotes like this, even when they make me spit out my coffee due to the ensuing laughter. 

In communist times, such were drug out of church and shot. This policy backfired as the rank-and-file athesits began to venerate them as martyrs.
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« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2013, 02:18:53 AM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.

Some may, but by no means do all allow them. Some Antiochian priests commune anyone with a pulse and some host Bingo in the church hall, but this is not to say these things are allowed.

The patriarch allows.
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« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2013, 08:43:40 PM »

Who says you wouldn't be participating? Would you be praying or playing Angry Birds?

I never understood how that game got so popular.  I tried it and thought it was exceedingly stupid after four minutes.  I remember having more fun with Sonic the Hedgehog. 

I think it's a metaphor.
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« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 09:20:20 PM »

Who says you wouldn't be participating? Would you be praying or playing Angry Birds?

I never understood how that game got so popular.  I tried it and thought it was exceedingly stupid after four minutes.  I remember having more fun with Sonic the Hedgehog. 

The birds represent the angels bearing God's wrath down on the non-Chalcedonians, who are represented by the pigs. That's why you don't get it.
 Dispairing remark about. The non chalcedony churches, forum rule violation.
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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2013, 10:38:23 PM »

The birds represent the angels bearing God's wrath down on the non-Chalcedonians, who are represented by the pigs. That's why you don't get it.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
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« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2013, 10:46:36 PM »

PLEASE! Stay on topic!
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« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2013, 10:54:14 PM »

PLEASE! Stay on topic!

Sorry about that.
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2013, 03:34:31 AM »


So I came across these videos from an Antiochian parish in Florida and I have some questions about a few of them:

http://youtu.be/QBmv_tYao6c?t=6m16s
1) Is it little-t tradition for priests to face the parish and raise their hands during the Our Father?

I RESPOND: No. I did not watch the video, but wherever you were the Priest was not following approved Antiochian practices, which are basically the same a Greek practices. The Priest faces East from his place standing in front of the Holy Table during the Lord's Prayer and only faces the people when he gives them a blessing, reads the Gospel, or gives the sermon. He also goes behind the altar to the High Place and stands facing the people during the Trisagion. 

2) I've never seen a priest wearing a chotki before while serving, is this common?
Sure, why not. I always wear a wrist chotki except when I take it off to take a shower or during intimate relations with my wife. I even sleep with it on. It is usually covered by my cuffs.


http://youtu.be/Ex_WH-iiW9o?t=3m4s
3) I've seen female servers that held the communion cloth (whatever it's called), but I've never seen any girls dressed up like altar boys before. They also seem to come out from behind the iconostasis at a couple points. Is this just this parish or is there more of this in Florida?

That is definitely an abuse. Girls do not serve as altar boys or enter the altar. They certainly do not vest. Sometimes, at a week day liturgy, I have a girl or women hold the basket with the antidorion when there are no altar boys present. If there are no men present to hold the communion cloth, I ask the communicate to hold it below their chin and to hand it to the next communicate so that in case a crumb of the sacred Body has somehow dropped on the cloth it will not fall on the floor.
I saw a Divine Liturgy on youtube from Beirut that was part of the funeral services after the falling asleep of Patriarch Ignatius IV. Altar servers carried the cross and fans out of the altar and handed them to girls who carried them during the Great Entrance. They did not take them back into the Altar, but gave them to altar servers who took them back into the Altar. I have never seen that done in this country.

4) What are the little headcoverings the girls/women are wearing? The rest of the video shows others wearing small, different colored, headcoverings that almost seem almost the size and placement (of course not shape) of a yamaka.

I have never seen such a thing.

5) Is it a common practice, Antiochian or otherwise, to allow non-partaking folks to come up to kiss the chalice/receive bread in the same line as people partaking?

No. Only those who are coming to receive Communion get in the Communion line. If a person approaches the Chalice and I do not know them. I ask them if they are Orthodox and if they are not give them a blessing and tell them as diplomatically as possible that only Orthodox can take Communion, although we have a statement in every book holder on the back of the pews that state that only Orthodox can take Communion. A few times, a non-Orthodox has tried to argue with me telling me that I have no right to refuse them Communion. Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.
http://youtu.be/UtnFfj-QQgw?t=6m28s
6) I've never seen an Antiochian priest wear a hat like this. Is it an honorific or what?

Normally the only Antiochian priest who wears a kamalavakion is an Archimandrite. He wears it with a veil. A married Priest does not usually wear any kind of head covering during the Divine Liturgy or any other service.

Not trying to judge or anything; just curious about what seem to be pretty apparent differences in another Antiochian parish.

Fr. John W. Morris

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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2013, 06:12:12 AM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.

Quote
A married Priest does not usually wear any kind of head covering during the Divine Liturgy or any other service.


Russian and married priests of certain other Slavic traditions do, at certain times of the various services.
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2013, 10:14:24 AM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.
Ironically, all the years among the Slavs (OCA), I never seen a spill.  I've witnessed it several times at Antiochian Churches, without the kissing of the chalice.
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« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2013, 11:15:07 AM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.
Ironically, all the years among the Slavs (OCA), I never seen a spill.  I've witnessed it several times at Antiochian Churches, without the kissing of the chalice.

Indeed, it sounds like an urban myth.
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« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2013, 03:35:09 PM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.
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« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2013, 03:38:39 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.
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« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 03:41:58 PM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.
Ironically, all the years among the Slavs (OCA), I never seen a spill.  I've witnessed it several times at Antiochian Churches, without the kissing of the chalice.

Indeed, it sounds like an urban myth.
No, I've witnessed spills among the Antiochians although they didn't kiss the chalice.
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« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2013, 03:47:01 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 
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« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2013, 05:25:50 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

I don't know about Ukrainian liturgies but our liturgies don't seem like a concerts despite the fact that choir sings pretty much everything.
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« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2013, 05:31:04 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters.  

Some food for thought from the Russian Typikon:

Chapter 28: On disorderly cries

Disorderly cries by the church singers ought not to be allowed in church singing. And those who make them are not allowed either. Let them be removed from their ministry and sing in the church no more. For it is proper to sing according to the order, and with one accord to glorify the Master and Lord of all, as if coming from our hearts through one mouth. Those who disobey are condemned to eternal torture since they do not follow the tradition and rules of the holy Fathers.


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« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2013, 08:40:25 PM »

I will try to be as charitable as I can, but this was a  weird Liturgy.  In fairness to the Antiochians, I have never witnessed an Antiochian Liturgy like this.  All the Antiochian Liturgies I have ever attended followed the rubrics and were traditional.  My background is OCA and I also have attended ROCOR and Greek Orthodox Liturgies, visited several monasteries and attended Liturgy at St. Tikhon's Seminary, so I have been exposed to the general Orthodox way of doing things.

First to say something nice:   This church has nice acoustics and no carpet to deaden the sound.  It seems like the choir director is trying her best to direct the choir, which is not an easy task.  Some of the choir's four part harmony was nice.  The icons were beautiful.  The priest seemed pious and devout.  He did not appear irreverent.

Where there is room for improvement:  I don't understand why the priest is facing the people so much.  I wonder if he has decided to do this on his own, or if he has his bishop's permission and blessing to do this? Showing the Holy Gifts to the people while intoning "The Holy Things for the Holy" reminded me of Vatican II innovations, to be honest. What is the next step in all of this? Removing the tabernacle from the altar and celebrating Westward facing the people?  I dearly hope not.  I have never seen the Holy Eucharist and the Antidoron distributed at the same time. That seems bizarre to me, and looks like an innovation.  I thought the Antiochian rubrics (which usually follow Greek usage) call for the priest to distribute the antidoron to the people at the END of the Liturgy as they come forward to greet the priest and receive his blessing.  And lastly, those girls vested in sticharions are disturbing.  As Father John Morris said earlier, that is an abuse which ought to be corrected.

I could say more, but lest these words suffice.
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« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2013, 09:23:15 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Rarely is church singing ever good enough to be concert-level.
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« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2013, 09:31:34 PM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.
Ironically, all the years among the Slavs (OCA), I never seen a spill.  I've witnessed it several times at Antiochian Churches, without the kissing of the chalice.

Indeed, it sounds like an urban myth.
No, I've witnessed spills among the Antiochians although they didn't kiss the chalice.

Spills do happen in Antiochian parishes. We are only human. However, if a spill happens. I lick the sacred body and blood of Christ off of the floor.

Fr. John
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« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2013, 09:34:32 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

The word Liturgy comes from the Greek for the work of the people. The people should participate in the Divine Liturgy to the best of their ability. If they can they should sing along with the choir. The Divine Liturgy is not a show.

Fr. John
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« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2013, 09:43:22 PM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.

Some may, but by no means do all allow them. Some Antiochian priests commune anyone with a pulse and some host Bingo in the church hall, but this is not to say these things are allowed.

The patriarch allows.

I have heard Metropolitan Philip lecture his clergy many times that non-Orthodox may not receive Communion. Most parishes have a statement in the bulletin that informs welcomes visitors but informs them that only Orthodox Christians may receive Communion. Female altar servers are strictly forbidden in the Antiochian Archdiocese, as is bingo. Just because a few Priests do not do what is right is no reason to condemn a whole Archdiocese.

Fr. John Morris
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« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2013, 09:46:46 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Rarely is church singing ever good enough to be concert-level.

Nor should it be. The Divine Liturgy is not a show. It is worship. Every faithful Orthodox Christian should participate in the Divine Liturgy to the best of their ability. A person who cannot sing should not be forced to sing, but those who can should sing along with the choir.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2013, 10:49:42 PM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Rarely is church singing ever good enough to be concert-level.

Nor should it be. The Divine Liturgy is not a show. It is worship. Every faithful Orthodox Christian should participate in the Divine Liturgy to the best of their ability. A person who cannot sing should not be forced to sing, but those who can should sing along with the choir.

Fr. John W. Morris

But most people cannot sing but do so anyway because they are told that the only way for them to participate is to sing.  That's bull.  I have observed countless people  mouthing the prayers while not singing them.  I do that myself whenever I visit a parish where I don't know their repertoire.  I also do that when I'm at monastic liturgies.  People DO participate without singing.  And that should be made known to the many people who still try to sing and sound terribly.  Good order in the church should not be sacrificed so others' self-esteem is not damaged.  This is especially true of Byzantine chant.  Most people have no basic rudimentary understanding of this complex musical system, yet they try to chant with the chanters and it does NOT work.
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« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2013, 12:22:55 AM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Rarely is church singing ever good enough to be concert-level.

Nor should it be. The Divine Liturgy is not a show. It is worship. Every faithful Orthodox Christian should participate in the Divine Liturgy to the best of their ability. A person who cannot sing should not be forced to sing, but those who can should sing along with the choir.

Fr. John W. Morris

But most people cannot sing but do so anyway because they are told that the only way for them to participate is to sing.  That's bull.  I have observed countless people  mouthing the prayers while not singing them.  I do that myself whenever I visit a parish where I don't know their repertoire.  I also do that when I'm at monastic liturgies.  People DO participate without singing.  And that should be made known to the many people who still try to sing and sound terribly.  Good order in the church should not be sacrificed so others' self-esteem is not damaged.  This is especially true of Byzantine chant.  Most people have no basic rudimentary understanding of this complex musical system, yet they try to chant with the chanters and it does NOT work.

Most people can sing the responses along with the choir. The music should not be too complex. The Divine Liturgy is not an opera or a choral performance. It is a public act of worship in which all are called to participate. Mozart wrote some very beautiful Masses, but they are unsuitable for worship precisely because they are written for professional singers.

Fr. John
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« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2013, 01:19:24 AM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Rarely is church singing ever good enough to be concert-level.

Nor should it be. The Divine Liturgy is not a show. It is worship. Every faithful Orthodox Christian should participate in the Divine Liturgy to the best of their ability. A person who cannot sing should not be forced to sing, but those who can should sing along with the choir.

Fr. John W. Morris

But most people cannot sing but do so anyway because they are told that the only way for them to participate is to sing.  That's bull.  I have observed countless people  mouthing the prayers while not singing them.  I do that myself whenever I visit a parish where I don't know their repertoire.  I also do that when I'm at monastic liturgies.  People DO participate without singing.  And that should be made known to the many people who still try to sing and sound terribly.  Good order in the church should not be sacrificed so others' self-esteem is not damaged.  This is especially true of Byzantine chant.  Most people have no basic rudimentary understanding of this complex musical system, yet they try to chant with the chanters and it does NOT work.

Most people can sing the responses along with the choir. The music should not be too complex. The Divine Liturgy is not an opera or a choral performance. It is a public act of worship in which all are called to participate. Mozart wrote some very beautiful Masses, but they are unsuitable for worship precisely because they are written for professional singers.

Fr. John

I'm NOT talking about Mozart. I am talking about Byzantine which is too complicated for people to just simply  "join in."  And there has never been any proscription in music that is complicated.  The "rule" that music should be simple?  Tell that to the monks and other great hymnographers who have produced many difficult compositions. 

This just gets off the point I made which you have yet to address, namely, that participation in the liturgy is not solely limited to a person singing along.  If it is not required to sing to participate (and it isn't), then why make all this fuss about insisting hat the music be simple.  Besides, most Americans have no musical ability in the first place.  Those without any talent should not be given false assurances that tey do.
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« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2013, 01:34:56 AM »

This just gets off the point I made which you have yet to address, namely, that participation in the liturgy is not solely limited to a person singing along.  If it is not required to sing to participate (and it isn't), then why make all this fuss about insisting hat the music be simple.  Besides, most Americans have no musical ability in the first place.  Those without any talent should not be given false assurances that tey do.

I've heard plenty of older first-generation immigrant Syrians singing along with the choir, who had little to no musical ability. FWIW, I appreciated hearing their vocal participation (not that it's the only form of participation) nonetheless for some reason.

Personally, I really don't see why people care strongly so long as the choir itself isn't "disorderly," and the talentless person(s) aren't overpowering the choir. Most such people without talent aren't attempting, in my experience at least, to project their voices across the church.
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« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2013, 07:55:19 AM »

This just gets off the point I made which you have yet to address, namely, that participation in the liturgy is not solely limited to a person singing along.  If it is not required to sing to participate (and it isn't), then why make all this fuss about insisting hat the music be simple.  Besides, most Americans have no musical ability in the first place.  Those without any talent should not be given false assurances that tey do.

I've heard plenty of older first-generation immigrant Syrians singing along with the choir, who had little to no musical ability. FWIW, I appreciated hearing their vocal participation (not that it's the only form of participation) nonetheless for some reason.

Personally, I really don't see why people care strongly so long as the choir itself isn't "disorderly," and the talentless person(s) aren't overpowering the choir. Most such people without talent aren't attempting, in my experience at least, to project their voices across the church.

Come to my church sometime and listen to the guy in the first pew on the right hand side.
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« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2013, 09:51:01 AM »

A little perspective on a couple of points:

Quote
Kissing the Chalice after Communion is not Antiochian tradition. It is strongly discouraged because of the danger that the person will bump the Chalice and cause the sacred Body and Blood of Christ to be spilled.

Rightly or wrongly, kissing the chalice after Communion is a widespread custom in Russian and some other Slavic traditions. Personally, I agree with the comments about the danger of bumping the chalice; my understanding is also that icons or other holy objects should not be venerated by those who have communed for the remaining duration of the liturgy. The Slavic custom of zapivka, the consuming of a little wine diluted in warm water, along with a piece of antidoron, is a worthwhile way of "washing down" the Communion.
Ironically, all the years among the Slavs (OCA), I never seen a spill.  I've witnessed it several times at Antiochian Churches, without the kissing of the chalice.

Kissing the chalice is not the Rusyn tradition. I have witnessed spills twice over the years, once when someone surprised the priest by planting a kiss on the chalice when he was not expecting it, IIRC.
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:17 AM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters.  

Agreed.

The discouragement of congregational participation is, in my experience, a misplaced Russian thing. It is one of the reasons why more Greek Catholics failed to leave the Unia in St . Alexis' time and why, thirty years later, the second large group to leave the Greek Catholc church during the 1930s refused to join the Metropolia and formed their own diocese under the EP.

In our tradition you will encounter both choirs as in the Ukrainian tradition and congregational chant(found in some OCA Parishes of Rusyn background as well.) Here is an example of congregational chant, with our new Bishop Gregory, of Greek American background.  http://www.acrod.org/diocese/councilsobor/xxii-sobor/video-sobor/sobor-2013-liturgy
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« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2013, 09:59:27 AM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Agreed.

The discouragement of congregational participation is, in my experience, a misplaced Russian thing. It is one of the reasons why more Greek Catholics failed to leave the Unia in St . Alexis' time and why, thirty years later, the second large group to leave the Greek Catholic church during the 1930s refused to join the Metropolia and formed their own diocese under the EP.

What were some other reasons?  I'm not fully read up on ACROD's history.
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« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2013, 10:06:29 AM »

As it should be.  Most Americans have no musical ability.  Unfortunately there are too many convert priests who encourage this.

Not a convert thing. It is promoted by cradles and converts alike. I agree with you though that it shouldn't be encouraged.

I disagree vehemently.  The liturgy is not a concert.  Sincerity of heart and correct teaching is what matters. 

Agreed.

The discouragement of congregational participation is, in my experience, a misplaced Russian thing. It is one of the reasons why more Greek Catholics failed to leave the Unia in St . Alexis' time and why, thirty years later, the second large group to leave the Greek Catholic church during the 1930s refused to join the Metropolia and formed their own diocese under the EP.

What were some other reasons?  I'm not fully read up on ACROD's history.

The wiki article with links is a good summary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Carpatho-Russian_Orthodox_Diocese
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« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2013, 04:41:20 AM »

3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.

Which rubrics? 

Quote
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.

I've seen that too, but usually it's a sung version of the prayers.  Why direct recitation? 

Quote
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

What was unusual about it other than the colour, which appeared to me to be "UPS Brown"? 

It is American Antiochian tradition for the people to recite the Creed and the Lord's Prayer. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that at Holy Cross where I went to seminary, the congregation also recited the Creed and the Lord's Prayer.


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« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2013, 04:48:03 AM »


It is American Antiochian tradition for the people to recite the Creed and the Lord's Prayer. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that at Holy Cross where I went to seminary, the congregation also recited the Creed and the Lord's Prayer.

Fr. John W. Morris

In my experience, across several jurisdictions and traditions, the congregational recitation or chanting of the above is very much a parish-by-parish phenomenon. Some parishes do, some don't, whether Greek, Russian, Serbian, mission set up by convert clergy, or whatever.
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« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2013, 01:39:15 PM »

It is American Antiochian tradition for the people to recite the Creed and the Lord's Prayer. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that at Holy Cross where I went to seminary, the congregation also recited the Creed and the Lord's Prayer.

I'm aware of that, Father.  My question was about the need for a priest/deacon to face the people and "conduct" them in reciting the prayer.  I've seen that happen with choral settings of these prayers (though not for the Lord's Prayer), but I don't see why it would need to happen with straight recitation.
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« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2013, 01:44:09 PM »

Deacons do that here but not priests.
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« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2013, 01:03:05 AM »

This just gets off the point I made which you have yet to address, namely, that participation in the liturgy is not solely limited to a person singing along.  If it is not required to sing to participate (and it isn't), then why make all this fuss about insisting hat the music be simple.  Besides, most Americans have no musical ability in the first place.  Those without any talent should not be given false assurances that tey do.

I've heard plenty of older first-generation immigrant Syrians singing along with the choir, who had little to no musical ability. FWIW, I appreciated hearing their vocal participation (not that it's the only form of participation) nonetheless for some reason.

Personally, I really don't see why people care strongly so long as the choir itself isn't "disorderly," and the talentless person(s) aren't overpowering the choir. Most such people without talent aren't attempting, in my experience at least, to project their voices across the church.

Come to my church sometime and listen to the guy in the first pew on the right hand side.
Well, there seems to be quite a debate about it.  All I know is I don't have a good voice, but I do love singing the DL.  I try to sing quietly so I can barely even hear myself over the choir.  In my parish, probably about a quarter of the people sing and the rest don't.
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« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2013, 01:26:38 AM »

I will try to be as charitable as I can, but this was a  weird Liturgy.  In fairness to the Antiochians, I have never witnessed an Antiochian Liturgy like this.  All the Antiochian Liturgies I have ever attended followed the rubrics and were traditional.  My background is OCA and I also have attended ROCOR and Greek Orthodox Liturgies, visited several monasteries and attended Liturgy at St. Tikhon's Seminary, so I have been exposed to the general Orthodox way of doing things.

First to say something nice:   This church has nice acoustics and no carpet to deaden the sound.  It seems like the choir director is trying her best to direct the choir, which is not an easy task.  Some of the choir's four part harmony was nice.  The icons were beautiful.  The priest seemed pious and devout.  He did not appear irreverent.

Where there is room for improvement:  I don't understand why the priest is facing the people so much.  I wonder if he has decided to do this on his own, or if he has his bishop's permission and blessing to do this? Showing the Holy Gifts to the people while intoning "The Holy Things for the Holy" reminded me of Vatican II innovations, to be honest. What is the next step in all of this? Removing the tabernacle from the altar and celebrating Westward facing the people?  I dearly hope not.  I have never seen the Holy Eucharist and the Antidoron distributed at the same time. That seems bizarre to me, and looks like an innovation.  I thought the Antiochian rubrics (which usually follow Greek usage) call for the priest to distribute the antidoron to the people at the END of the Liturgy as they come forward to greet the priest and receive his blessing.  And lastly, those girls vested in sticharions are disturbing.  As Father John Morris said earlier, that is an abuse which ought to be corrected.

I could say more, but lest these words suffice.

In normal Antiochian practice, the Priest holds the hand cross for the people to kiss as they come up after the Divine Liturgy. During the Paschal season, the Priest holds the Gospel Book for the people to venerate as they come up following the Divine Liturgy. Usually an altar server holds a basket with the antidorion.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2013, 01:39:17 AM »

In normal Antiochian practice, the Priest holds the hand cross for the people to kiss as they come up after the Divine Liturgy. During the Paschal season, the Priest holds the Gospel Book for the people to venerate as they come up following the Divine Liturgy.

Why the difference? 
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« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2013, 01:49:27 AM »

In normal Antiochian practice, the Priest holds the hand cross for the people to kiss as they come up after the Divine Liturgy. During the Paschal season, the Priest holds the Gospel Book for the people to venerate as they come up following the Divine Liturgy.

Why the difference? 

In our tradition one does not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season. I have seen Priests give blessings using a small Gospel Book at those places where he would normally use the hand cross.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2013, 01:51:57 AM »

Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season. 
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« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2013, 02:20:02 AM »

Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season. 

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris
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« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2013, 03:57:57 AM »

Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season.  

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.
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« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2013, 11:26:32 AM »

During the Paschal season, the Priest holds the Gospel Book for the people to venerate as they come up following the Divine Liturgy.

I don't think I've ever seen that at my parish. Perhaps it was like LBK said, with the resurrection side of the cross or something.
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« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2013, 11:41:34 AM »

Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season.  

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.
This is what I've seen done in the parishes I've visited
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« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2013, 01:24:01 PM »

Is there a particular reason for that?  I've seen both, but never based on liturgical season.  

On Sundays when one of the Matins Gospels of the Resurrection is chanted, the Gospel is brought out for the people to venerate during Psalm 50 with the Resurrection side up so that the people are venerating the icon of the Resurrection on the cover of the Gospel.
I suppose that the reason why we do not use the Hand Cross during the Paschal season, is that the season itself is a celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. It is just one of the traditions for the Paschal season, like the Priest holding the Paschal candle when he censes during the Paschal season.

Fr. John Morris

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.
This is what I've seen done in the parishes I've visited

That is correct. However, when I was in his diocese Bishop Basil told me not to use the hand cross during the Paschal season. I have seen priests from Syria and Lebanon use a small Gospel to bless the people in place of the hand cross during the Paschal season. The rubrics in the Liturgikon state that one should bless with the Paschal candle during the Paschal season.

Fr. John
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« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2013, 01:34:13 PM »

In Romania the gospel book is always out for kissing alongside the icon on the small stand in the middle of the Church.
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« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2013, 01:50:37 PM »

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris
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« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.
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« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2013, 03:46:55 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

We have one in my parish.  This isn't the one, but it is the same idea:

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« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2013, 10:48:05 AM »

^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.
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« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2013, 11:13:05 AM »

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris

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« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2013, 11:14:03 AM »

^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.

Yes all of our crosses are double sides like that including the one that stands at the altar.  At midnight on Pascha it is flipped and reveals an empty cross with the cloth hanging from it. 
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« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2013, 11:21:32 AM »

^ In many of the churches found in the Carpathians, among the Galicians, Lemkos, Rusyns and Romanians, it was common to see a large wooden cross with either a painted icon of Christ Crucified or a bas relief in the front of the Church year round. It was (and in come parishes it remains the case) customary for an appointed curator to reverse the cross as depicted in  Mor's picture during the Paschal procession while the Church was empty, and keep it so for the duration of the Paschal season. Same thought process, I suppose.

Yes all of our crosses are double sides like that including the one that stands at the altar.  At midnight on Pascha it is flipped and reveals an empty cross with the cloth hanging from it. 

Yes, I forgot about the cloth. That too.
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« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2013, 11:35:35 AM »

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The Antiochian Archdiocese publishes a complete set of books with Byzantine chant using Western notation.

Fr. John Morris

There is a Byzantine notation set available now for, at least, Vespers using the Kazan text and melodies.
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« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2013, 05:56:22 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  Wink
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« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2013, 06:02:26 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  Wink

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193
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« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2013, 06:10:57 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  Wink

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193

And yet, in none of them did you see a double-sided priest's cross, yet they exist.  police
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« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2013, 06:15:27 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  Wink

I've managed to visit a few places already.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24118.msg1039193.html#msg1039193

And yet, in none of them did you see a double-sided priest's cross, yet they exist.  police

In Ukrainian, and with it Rusyn, tradition, the Paschal Blessing is done with the hand cross. Many of the faithful probably would never look closely enough to notice the two sides.

I tire of the 'this is the right way, you're doing it wrong' based upon separate cultural development over two millenniums in some parts of the world and at least one in the other. Most of this stuff is  cultural 'window dressing' and doesn't go to the heart of rubrics, ritual or dogma. Yet it is one of the real obstacles to organic Orthodox unity in America at least......People will line up to fight to the spiritual death over such matters.
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« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2013, 08:24:52 PM »

Some blessing crosses, particularly those which are engraved, rather than in bas-relief, are double-sided. One side shows the Crucifixion, the other the risen Christ. During the Paschal season, a priest with such a cross simply presents the "resurrectional" side for veneration.

Never seen anything like that.

You haven't lived as long as I have.  Wink

Every Eastern Orthodox hand cross that I have ever seen has two sides, one for the Resurrection and one of the Crucifixion. However, I was told by Bishop Basil not to use the hand cross during the Pascal Season. I have not asked my current Bishop, Bishop Antoun about the matter.

Fr. John W. Morris
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