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Author Topic: Questions about an Antiochian Liturgy in Florida  (Read 2788 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nephi
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« on: October 21, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »

So I came across these videos from an Antiochian parish in Florida and I have some questions about a few of them:

http://youtu.be/QBmv_tYao6c?t=6m16s
1) Is it little-t tradition for priests to face the parish and raise their hands during the Our Father?
2) I've never seen a priest wearing a chotki before while serving, is this common?

http://youtu.be/Ex_WH-iiW9o?t=3m4s
3) I've seen female servers that held the communion cloth (whatever it's called), but I've never seen any girls dressed up like altar boys before. They also seem to come out from behind the iconostasis at a couple points. Is this just this parish or is there more of this in Florida?
4) What are the little headcoverings the girls/women are wearing? The rest of the video shows others wearing small, different colored, headcoverings that almost seem almost the size and placement (of course not shape) of a yamaka.
5) Is it a common practice, Antiochian or otherwise, to allow non-partaking folks to come up to kiss the chalice/receive bread in the same line as people partaking?

http://youtu.be/UtnFfj-QQgw?t=6m28s
6) I've never seen an Antiochian priest wear a hat like this. Is it an honorific or what?


Not trying to judge or anything; just curious about what seem to be pretty apparent differences in another Antiochian parish.
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 10:12:10 PM »

Not sure about FL, but in my parish:

1. The priest does the same exact thing during the Lord's Prayer
2. Our priest does not wear a chotki, at least not one that I've seen

5. In our parish, you can go up and kiss the chalice and receive prosphora even if you are are still a catechumen. You just wait in like just like everyone else.  Most people don't though.

I don't know about the other things.
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 11:03:06 PM »

The hat shown in the video is just a kalimavkion, which can be worn by any priest (and sometimes deacons) in the Greek tradition. You don't see it too much in American Antiochian churches, but you will see it in photos or videos from overseas. The local Greek priest in my city wears one.

The deacons in this photo are wearing them:


Photo of martyred Syrian priest, Fr. Fadi Jamil Haddad wearing one as well:
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »

^ Thanks. I've seen them in other traditions, but like you said not in American Antiochians which piqued my curiosity. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen an American Antiochian wearing one in pictures/videos or in person, only overseas or possibly visiting from overseas.

TBH, I didn't know before this thread that they were even worn by non-monastics/deacons. angel My knowledge of hats is pretty much non-existent.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 11:38:49 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 11:44:44 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.

It was all abnormal? Not being sarcastic or snide.
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 08:11:23 AM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 08:14:42 AM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.
Wait, what?!?  I was always told by my priest that a female may not go behind the iconostasis.  How can they be altar servers?  Huh
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 08:15:00 AM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
 
It is Orlando...people make pilgrimage to receive blessings from a mouse.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 08:41:59 AM »

Couple of things that I observed.

1. There seems to be an attempt to congregational singing.
2. The girls do not enter or exit through the Deacon's Doors but a door further out. This may mean that they do not enter the altar area at all.
3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

Overall, my impression is of an attempt for the greater involvement of the congregation. And that is a good thing IMHO.
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 08:53:06 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 08:54:48 AM »

Yeah, the colour is pretty ugly.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 10:51:42 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 10:58:01 AM »

3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.

Which rubrics? 

Quote
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.

I've seen that too, but usually it's a sung version of the prayers.  Why direct recitation? 

Quote
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

What was unusual about it other than the colour, which appeared to me to be "UPS Brown"? 
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 10:59:23 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.

It depends on the tradition. Polyphonic choirs became popular across Russia into Ukraine and neighboring areas and the same were brought proudly to America by both Orthodox and Greek Catholic immigrants. The Rusyns and Ukrainian Galicians have very similar chant traditions which are distinct from Kievan style chant. I thought Romanians have their own distinct chant tradition as well? I posted a link to a Serbian chanted Akathist the other day, it was a sort of bridge between Byzantine and a more Slavic sounding musical style.

 You hear more chant singing these days as choir directors and members age out and there is less interest in the choir as a club. Not a generalization, but an observation.
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 11:03:12 AM »

3. The rubrics allow for receiving a blessing, instead of Communion. Here, Fr. Hamatie also gives them prosphora.

Which rubrics? 

Quote
4. The Father seems to be leading the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I have seen Russian Patriarchal services where a deacon faces the congregation and directs them in the singing of it, as well as of the Creed. I wonder if Fr. Hamatie leads that as well.

I've seen that too, but usually it's a sung version of the prayers.  Why direct recitation? 

Quote
5. Father's vestment is quite unusual; any Antiochian who can talk about it?

What was unusual about it other than the colour, which appeared to me to be "UPS Brown"? 

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 11:10:04 AM »

This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

It doesn't sound terrible at all.  But it does mean that you have to grow in your understanding of what "participating" is.  In this regard, the point orthonorm made above is relevant. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 11:13:50 AM »

This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

It doesn't sound terrible at all.  But it does mean that you have to grow in your understanding of what "participating" is.  In this regard, the point orthonorm made above is relevant. 
Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:04 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I prefer chanting to reading, but there are some people who should just always read.  Smiley  

I would've thought that the "transition" to reading in ACROD was in part due to your closeness with the Greeks, but I've never heard of it in the OCA.  Then again, maybe things have changed, I haven't attended Liturgy in an OCA parish in years.  I miss it sometimes.  
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:49 AM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 11:16:26 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I prefer chanting to reading, but there are some people who should just always read.  Smiley  

I would've thought that the "transition" to reading in ACROD was in part due to your closeness with the Greeks, but I've never heard of it in the OCA.  Then again, maybe things have changed, I haven't attended Liturgy in an OCA parish in years.  I miss it sometimes.  

WE don't read in our parish or in most of the east coast parishes, but in the midwest it seems to have caught on.
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 11:18:17 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 11:19:00 AM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
Ahh, I found it.

This exchange seems to rely on a relative minimalist understanding of liturgy.

How do you mean?  

That somehow a member of the Church is not involved in the liturgy if they are not in a specific place and doing specific things. Carl's post would suggest that a person doing catechetical work is somehow absent from the liturgy.

Maybe for pastoral reasons the same person shouldn't be teaching every Sunday until eternity, but it doesn't mean someone preparing persons to be received into the Church are absent from the liturgy. Even death or sickness doesn't bar a person from that work.

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 11:20:43 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".

I love anecdotes like this, even when they make me spit out my coffee due to the ensuing laughter. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 11:26:26 AM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.

That is the case in my (OCA) church as well. Incidentally, the troparia are printed in our bulletin so that folks can sing along with the choir.
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 11:32:58 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

Like this?
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 11:35:59 AM »

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...

Perhaps.  I'm used to congregational singing in two or three languages, serving at the altar, etc., so when I attend churches where I don't know the language, or the music, the rubrics, or all of the above, it's a bit of an adjustment.  It's not "ideal" for me, but I never think less of it.  Basically, we need to learn to pray the Liturgy and not just pray at Liturgy.

For instance, after having visited Armenian parishes on and off for several years, I know the basic order of the Liturgy (so I don't usually get lost), but I don't know the language or how to sing.  When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need), am following along with the prayers of the priest and deacons, and making all the responses silently or in English under my breath if no one is near me.  During the prosomide and the anaphora, I remember the names of people I want to pray for.  During Matins, when I really have no idea what's going on, I just read some Psalms.  I'd prefer to know Armenian, sing Armenian, etc., but if you can pray the Liturgy--if you know what the Liturgy is doing at any given moment and can apply yourself to that task prayerfully--you can transcend those limitations even while learning what you need to know in order to participate more thoroughly.    
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 11:38:14 AM »

Like this?

Damn you, man!  I just had take out food for breakfast, I have to eat healthy for the rest of the day, and now I want Chinese food!  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 11:44:31 AM »

Like this?

Damn you, man!  I just had take out food for breakfast, I have to eat healthy for the rest of the day, and now I want Chinese food!  Tongue

So eat some healthy Chinese food! Wink

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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 11:51:17 AM »

You can participate by talking to those around you about whatever . I renember these old women once at a presanctified were talking so loud and the subject matter was the price of eggs. Then the priest stopped for a moment and told them to "shut up, your not in the market".

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

Like this?

Just a bit less intense.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 12:02:20 PM »

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'

Fifty years ago?  That still happens today! 
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »

So eat some healthy Chinese food! Wink

Nothing I like is healthy.  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »

I remember about fifty years ago, my father stopped the Paschal Matins procession dead in its tracks and told a group of men to get off the steps, stop gabbing and put out their cigarettes. That came up at the next annual meeting, that's the way things were back then.....The priest wasn't gonna tell US what to do..... Not so much the 'good old days,'

Fifty years ago?  That still happens today! 

QFT+
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 12:39:51 PM »

Not in here. Up here congregation usually sings Our Father and Creed. In my former parish we also sang troparion of St. Nicholas.

That I think was the hardest part of switching from a Greek church to an OCA one. For me at least, the tune used for the Our Father and the Creed was difficult to replicate in the beginning. In fact, seeing Western-style notation (which makes even less sense to me than Byzantine notation) in a church was pretty shocking. I had completely forgotten how truly diverse our Church's ecclesiastical music is, despite my mentor giving me a lesson on the different chanting styles of our world once before.

When I attend, I've got a book in my hand (which, normally, I'd prefer not to need)

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?
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«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 12:56:39 PM »

I have a question. I'm a bit addicted to having a book with me during Divine Liturgy. I find it helps me pay attention during church, but conversely, it has prevented me from observing the liturgy because my face is buried in a booklet. In fact, the first time I attended Washington D.C.'s Western Rite church, the head acolyte afterwards suggested next time I return, that I let go of the transcription of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory and instead watch.

I've never really tried memorising the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom since I've always had a book with me to follow along. Are books of the Liturgy training-wheels and should I start trying to memorise the Liturgy and not use a book?

The goal is to pray.  If having the book in your hand helps you pay attention, follow along, etc., then I would keep using it.  But the Liturgy is more than just the words prayed and sung aloud: it includes prayers read silently, gestures, rites, movements, etc.  So I would say it's good, even when using a book, to "watch" the Liturgy as well.  This becomes easier if you've committed parts or all of the Liturgy largely to memory, but can be done even while using the book. 

Eventually, if you attend services enough and are paying some amount of active attention, you'll pick up enough that you won't need the book, at least not all the time.  I've had this experience with five different liturgical rites, and I'm not particularly bright, so I'm sure anyone can do it with time and some effort. 

I've heard traditional Roman Catholics give the same advice regarding the Tridentine Mass as you received from the WR parish you visited.  I think it's good advice when experiencing something new.  The easiest thing is to watch.  If you don't know much about the rite, following along in the book will get annoying.  If you watch enough to get a sense of the order, the book becomes easier to use.  And when you get used to that, eventually you need the book less and less.       
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Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 03:33:15 PM »

For some reason the read versions of the Epistle, Creed and Our Father have been gaining traction in many parishes of many jurisdictions. I've heard it in ACROD and OCA. I personally hate it as both ACROD and OCA have easy to sing - no real musical talent is needed - chant arrangements of the Creed and Our Father which are simple and beautiful. The epistle should be chanted and listened to - not read in unison. Innovations!!!!!!!!! ( Wink )

There are parishes that have congregational reading of the Epistle in unison?

I can't imagine reading aloud in unison. I'm generally the one blessed to read the Epistle and far too often as I look at the congregation, everyone has their eyes glued to the bulletin. I guess it's to see if I make a mistake. But sometimes I think that instead of intoning "The reading is from the Epistle of St Paul to the Romans/etc.", I should intone "The reading is from page three in your bulletin. Follow along."  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 03:34:23 PM »

We read prayer before the Eucharist aloud.

AFAIR, Creed is read not sung during St. Andrew Canon.
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 05:15:15 PM »

I can't imagine reading aloud in unison. I'm generally the one blessed to read the Epistle and far too often as I look at the congregation, everyone has their eyes glued to the bulletin. I guess it's to see if I make a mistake. But sometimes I think that instead of intoning "The reading is from the Epistle of St Paul to the Romans/etc.", I should intone "The reading is from page three in your bulletin. Follow along."  Smiley

That would be a hoot to see and hear!
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 10:36:56 PM »

Antiochians allow female altar servers.

Some may, but by no means do all allow them. Some Antiochian priests commune anyone with a pulse and some host Bingo in the church hall, but this is not to say these things are allowed.
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 10:37:28 PM »

Nothing that happens in this Orlando parish is normal.
 
It is Orlando...people make pilgrimage to receive blessings from a mouse.

Florida is a strange place.
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 10:39:59 PM »

I too was curious about his vestments.  I have never seen anything similar to that.

Do other jurisdictions not do congregational singing?  In our parish, the entire parish sings the entire choir portion of Divine Liturgy with the exception of a few parts.  We have a choir, they they more or less lead the congregation in singing.
Congregational singing is the rare exception. Trust me.
This is going to sound terrible, but I think I would get kinda bored if I was just standing there and not participating.  I guess I could join the choir in that instance, but given my singing talents, they would probably look askance at that.

Who says you wouldn't be participating? Would you be praying or playing Angry Birds?
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 10:42:43 PM »

Where is orthonorm's post?  I must be blind, because I am not seeing it.  Huh

Sorry!  It was in the thread about the litany of the catechumens. 
Ahh, I found it.

This exchange seems to rely on a relative minimalist understanding of liturgy.

How do you mean?  

That somehow a member of the Church is not involved in the liturgy if they are not in a specific place and doing specific things. Carl's post would suggest that a person doing catechetical work is somehow absent from the liturgy.

Maybe for pastoral reasons the same person shouldn't be teaching every Sunday until eternity, but it doesn't mean someone preparing persons to be received into the Church are absent from the liturgy. Even death or sickness doesn't bar a person from that work.

Perhaps it would be phrased better that as a catechumen, I have limited opportunities to be "doing" things in Liturgy, so singing is one that I can do and enjoy it (even if I am bad at it.  laugh).  Maybe I am still looking at it to minimalistically, I dunno...

You are still looking at doing.
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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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