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Author Topic: To those married/in relationships that watch porn...  (Read 2890 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 21, 2013, 08:41:32 PM »

Am I alone in thinking people that watch pornography, stimulate themselves for pleasure, while having a mate...is cheating? I mean after all you are lusting in your heart right? Is that not adultery if you are married?

If people feel more comfortable talking about this privately, then so be it.

Maybe I'm coming off as a fundy here, I dunno.

I think porn, if you use it overtime and have to find more "raunchy" material in order to be aroused, can be seriously determinal to one's sexual life and mental health. I mean surely there exists ED for frequent porn users?
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 09:57:54 PM »

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

I just kind of think that scripture is appropriate for your question.

I can only comment on what I think.  I strongly disagree with a Christian's use of pornography.  I believe it will cause a person to lust, is of the flesh, and can lead to addictions.  Also I've read studies on where porn users will often seek "more perverse" material in order to get that same "high" off pornography.

Cheating..... (my opinion only), I believe the word cheating would be a strong.  I do believe most women would be hurt if they walked in and their husband was looking at pornography and defiling himself with it.   However, if she were to walk in and another woman was in the room with him....  You get the point I'm sure.  I think most women would be far more hurt with a physical woman present.

I would see it more like "violating trust", "seeking the flesh", and adultery in his heart.  I believe it would leave a wife thinking they are inadequate for their husband and inferior to the young woman often depicted.  It would hurt her self image very badly that she could not satisfy her husband and he turns to pornography.

For the man it can hurt him because he will be trying to gain physical satisfaction from a digital image of (usually) a young woman.  When a man releases, it also releases dopamine in his brain.  This will form a bonding (through a short period of habit) to the form of release he is using.   If the man is seeking out pornography for his release, he will eventually be hooked on that release.  (There's several studies on this).
This is how pornography addiction works.

On the flip side, if a man were to love his own wife and admire her beauty as is written in the song of songs, then he will be of one flesh through matrimony with his wife.   Through this mutual bonding can occur.  Dopamine will also be released in his brain and likewise his wife's as well.  This can form strong bonds between a husband and wife.   Through the blessing of marriage, the blessing of a physical relationship, God often blesses them with children.  Children growing up in a household with two parents who are closely bonded are blessed.

I do agree with what you say of adultery in his heart.   I suppose the question would resonate - is adultery in the heart the same thing as adultery itself (of the heart and flesh?)     I am not sure.

I do think most would agree however that pornography is very damaging to a person.  Is it the same as walking in on a physical "cheat" of a spouse???


On a side note, being in the IT business so long, I'll tell you..... Pornography is so incredibly "common place".  At first it wasn't like this.   But so many of these young men are really hooked on this stuff.  May God help this world.
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 10:02:48 PM »

I think YiM is spot on. 
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 10:39:04 PM »

Pornography is a destructive and addictive drug. It's prevalence and ease of access make it all the more dangerous. Many otherwise good and honorable people succumb to this temptation. It has tripped me up many times in my own life, I am sad to say. The feelings of guilt, shame, and depression that accompany it are awful. Like any addictive drug, there is no such thing as moderate pornography use. It always leads the mind into deeper and darker depravities. The assault of pornography on our culture is one of the many destructive prices we pay for our so-called "freedoms." Such unrestrained freedoms inevitably lead to various forms of mental, spiritual, and emotional slavery.

The Sacrament of Confession and the Mystery of the Eucharist have helped me tremendously in this fight against the temptations of pornography. I cannot emphasize enough how important the Sacraments are in regard to this struggle.

I would love to say that I am above falling prey to the despicable evil of pornography, but I am not. So I am being honest here so that others may find hope and strength. This thing plagues more people than we realize. May God give us grace and strength to fight this battle.



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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 11:36:15 PM »

Quote
I think porn, if you use it overtime and have to find more "raunchy" material in order to be aroused, can be seriously determinal to one's sexual life and mental health. I mean surely there exists ED for frequent porn users?
it can be a factor , i think, in unbalancing a relationship.  in large quantities at least. since i haven't had internet at home in ages -like 5 years almost- my relationship with porn has been sorta distant. can't watch it in a coffee shop.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 11:59:10 PM »

Am I alone in thinking people that watch pornography, stimulate themselves for pleasure, while having a mate...is cheating? I mean after all you are lusting in your heart right? Is that not adultery if you are married?

If people feel more comfortable talking about this privately, then so be it.

Maybe I'm coming off as a fundy here, I dunno.

I think porn, if you use it overtime and have to find more "raunchy" material in order to be aroused, can be seriously determinal to one's sexual life and mental health. I mean surely there exists ED for frequent porn users?

1+

This is one of those things I have a problem understanding.  If we think about what we're doing at the very core of it, it's truly bizarre.  We're looking at pictures of other people's genitals, and following other people into their bedrooms in order to watch them copulate.  That's deranged.  And not just deranged, but being sexually deranged in a way that is completely socially acceptable.  Not to be puritan, but it's one of those things where in the act of watching or viewing or reading porn, where is that thing that makes us stop for a minute and say "wait, what am I doing?"  Not to be puritan, but it really is a bizarre thing.   
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 12:55:57 AM »

Porn has to be one of the most boring things I have ever encountered.


Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

A subject I plan on doing some reading on soon. Will report (if I feel like it).
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 08:23:18 AM »

No, you're not alone.  If you lust after another, it is adultery.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 09:16:06 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 09:22:59 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 09:26:25 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 09:26:52 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?

Anybody with a PhD in Philosophy.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 09:32:53 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?

Anybody with a PhD in Philosophy.

LOL! I've known some of those, but for some reason I couldn't associate any of them with the word "philosopher".
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 09:33:18 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?

Romaios the Great.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 09:42:35 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »

Best as porn goes-ever watched, also had a story line.
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 09:52:46 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?

Anybody with a PhD in Philosophy.

LOL! I've known some of those, but for some reason I couldn't associate any of them with the word "philosopher".

Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 10:05:39 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

1000+

That's exactly it.  Actually, the porn in book form is much worse than pictures.  And yes, women are into porn, too.  I did call center for one company whose sole product was literary porn, and the callers were easily over 95% female, and 75-80% over the age of 55.  Seniors galore.  We had over 20 operators at any given time manning the phones, and you're answering 80-120 calls per day.  You do the math.  This was people's nanas that were calling all day, every day, looking for their porn, and one thing women do is try to say it's not quite porn, or at least that it's 'lesser' porn, because it's a book.  As though it's a more esteemed kind of pornography.  Yeah, right.  Porn is porn, and all of it does psychological damage.  It's voyeurism, for one.  And it debases women, for another.  Even the porn that is written by women for women, because it suggests that that's our worth and value--sex.  
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 10:15:25 AM »

Mm can't say I agree with the books. They are only bad in the sense they create loftier expectations for their male partners who couldn't come close to meeting them. Then sets in the disappointment.

I have no problem with erotic material only if it is tastefully done.

Same goes for films in Hollywood.

I believe that suggestion sexuality and not fully revealing in movies is much more exciting. Your imagination can do the work.
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 10:16:30 AM »

Generally, men prefer visual porn, whereas women can make porn with their mind; simply by using the power of their imaginations and a book. 

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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 10:20:47 AM »

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

This. Some women I know are even proud of it.
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 11:06:43 AM »

Actually, pornographers are the philosophers of our time, but none of you seem to know that.

Philosophers are the philosophers of our time.

Name a couple?

Romaios the Great.

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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 11:33:20 AM »

Hi everyone and god bless;
I'd like to interject a couple of thoughts on this subject also, first,Gebre's post mirrors what I would say as well in reference to myself.

In regard to pornography,fornication;
                               A1)How cheaply the side of evil attempts to mislead the children of men,with sins as low and dirty that have the ability to cover "not just the wealthy",but the poor as well,a sin thats not partial to class or gender race,a sin thats more easily accessible than most in any day and age-

If one were a demonic arms dealer to the devil I'm quite sure this one would go in the "Positive column",before the first meeting.

The only way the sinner to combat and overcome being through our lord and savior Jesus Christ through his holy and blessed church, and I agree with Gebre-the sacraments have led me lovingly.

Lets recall the words of blessed saint Paul in 2Cor-Lest satan should get an advantage over us:for we are not ignorant of his devices.

This relay also from a sinner-god bless
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 11:35:17 AM »

Pornography is destructive as it gives men unrealistic expectations and pollutes the mind.
Romantic comedies are destructive as they give women unrealistic expectations and pollute the mind.

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?  There's this show called Real Housewives of Orange County.  I would rather watch Brazillian Fart P0rn than that tripe.  I saw this other on MTV that had these vile creatures that work at a bar in Texas or something.  I don't remember what it is called but these people!  We are getting to barnyard gay buk**** levels of disgusting here.

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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 11:58:14 AM »

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?  There's this show called Real Housewives of Orange County.  I would rather watch Brazillian Fart P0rn than that tripe.

+1, -Fart
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 11:59:05 AM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2013, 12:38:47 PM »

Lol practice.

I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap.

There's no point to porn if you are with someone.
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 12:39:22 PM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool

A digression:

I know of a priest, alive and serving today within a heavily ethnic parish/jurisdiction somewhere on God's green earth, who told me of instances where he had to counsel certain married couples who'd run into trouble.  What was their trouble?  They didn't know what they were doing.  He had to teach them some basics, from start to finish, to get them going.  I suppose he could've referred them to certain books/manuals, but in that cultural context, it would've been the same as sending them to an internet porn site.  Recommending a therapist for this issue would've also been seen as inappropriate.  He was stuck playing Dr Ruth.  Happily, it seems he was good enough at it that the marriages survived.  I didn't ask how he got his expertise.  Smiley    

I'm not defending or recommending use of porn, not by any means.  But when I think of these cases, I think there must be some percentage of consumers, however small, who are trying to educate themselves in order to improve an important aspect of their lives before certain problems become increasingly insurmountable.  I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but adding "sex therapist/technician" to a priest's already numerous roles hardly seems like the way to go.        
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 12:47:55 PM »

That reminded me of a recent article,
Quote
Ultra-Orthodox boys and girls are educated separately, and have little interaction with the opposite sex until their marriage night, when they are expected to consummate their union.

Physical touch with the opposite sex - even something like a handshake - is only permitted with one's spouse and close family members. Access to films and the internet is often restricted.

"We wanted there to be a place where people could say, 'I know nothing and I want to know something,'" says Ribner.

The Newlywed's Guide to Physical Intimacy, which Ribner co-wrote with Orthodox teacher Jennie Rosenfeld, starts with the very basics - explaining, for example, how the body shape of men and women differs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22152700

But, hey, if the couple got the help they needed from a priest of God, so much the better.

As to his expertise...I assume he's/was married. Shocked Wink
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 12:48:34 PM »

Lol practice.

I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap.

There's no point to porn if you are with someone.

I'm not talking about it being hard to get, I'm talking about the quality of the sex you're having. At the beginning, it's all exciting and new and that's great and fun. What I'm talking about is preventing monogamy from becoming monotony. That takes effort.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 12:48:44 PM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool

A digression:

I know of a priest, alive and serving today within a heavily ethnic parish/jurisdiction somewhere on God's green earth, who told me of instances where he had to counsel certain married couples who'd run into trouble.  What was their trouble?  They didn't know what they were doing.  He had to teach them some basics, from start to finish, to get them going.  I suppose he could've referred them to certain books/manuals, but in that cultural context, it would've been the same as sending them to an internet porn site.  Recommending a therapist for this issue would've also been seen as inappropriate.  He was stuck playing Dr Ruth.  Happily, it seems he was good enough at it that the marriages survived.  I didn't ask how he got his expertise.  Smiley    

I'm not defending or recommending use of porn, not by any means.  But when I think of these cases, I think there must be some percentage of consumers, however small, who are trying to educate themselves in order to improve an important aspect of their lives before certain problems become increasingly insurmountable.  I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but adding "sex therapist/technician" to a priest's already numerous r
oles hardly seems like the way to go.        
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 12:51:31 PM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool

A digression:

I know of a priest, alive and serving today within a heavily ethnic parish/jurisdiction somewhere on God's green earth, who told me of instances where he had to counsel certain married couples who'd run into trouble.  What was their trouble?  They didn't know what they were doing.  He had to teach them some basics, from start to finish, to get them going.  I suppose he could've referred them to certain books/manuals, but in that cultural context, it would've been the same as sending them to an internet porn site.  Recommending a therapist for this issue would've also been seen as inappropriate.  He was stuck playing Dr Ruth.  Happily, it seems he was good enough at it that the marriages survived.  I didn't ask how he got his expertise.  Smiley    

I'm not defending or recommending use of porn, not by any means.  But when I think of these cases, I think there must be some percentage of consumers, however small, who are trying to educate themselves in order to improve an important aspect of their lives before certain problems become increasingly insurmountable.  I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but adding "sex therapist/technician" to a priest's already numerous roles hardly seems like the way to go.        

I get that. I know folks who use porn as a means to get ideas to "spice things up" or whatever euphemism the kids these days are using. Tongue I sympathize with where they're coming from, I just don't think porn is a viable solution for a host of reasons.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »

I'm not defending or recommending use of porn, not by any means.  But when I think of these cases, I think there must be some percentage of consumers, however small, who are trying to educate themselves in order to improve an important aspect of their lives before certain problems become increasingly insurmountable.  I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but adding "sex therapist/technician" to a priest's already numerous roles hardly seems like the way to go.  

I still remember a friend's account from several years ago: his then-girlfriend rented a hardcore Asian skin flick and proceeded to duplicate the on-screen action on him. He was by no means complaining, although he did say something about too much of a good thing. Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 01:00:59 PM »

Besides points already raised, my main critique of porn use in a relationship (regardless of who's using it) is that it's a cop-out, and it's lazy. There's no aspect of a relationship that doesn't require work to be good. Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy, but does you both a disservice in the long run. If you're having sex with your spouse instead of by yourself in front of a screen, then you are learning about the other person's preferences. The more you do it, the better you'll be. Practice makes perfect.  Cool

A digression:

I know of a priest, alive and serving today within a heavily ethnic parish/jurisdiction somewhere on God's green earth, who told me of instances where he had to counsel certain married couples who'd run into trouble.  What was their trouble?  They didn't know what they were doing.  He had to teach them some basics, from start to finish, to get them going.  I suppose he could've referred them to certain books/manuals, but in that cultural context, it would've been the same as sending them to an internet porn site.  Recommending a therapist for this issue would've also been seen as inappropriate.  He was stuck playing Dr Ruth.  Happily, it seems he was good enough at it that the marriages survived.  I didn't ask how he got his expertise.  Smiley    

I'm not defending or recommending use of porn, not by any means.  But when I think of these cases, I think there must be some percentage of consumers, however small, who are trying to educate themselves in order to improve an important aspect of their lives before certain problems become increasingly insurmountable.  I don't know what the appropriate solution is, but adding "sex therapist/technician" to a priest's already numerous roles hardly seems like the way to go.        

 I understand what you're saying.  However, if you're advocating for discretional use of pornography as teacher, I must disagree.  Pornography is immoral and destructive on several counts.  To begin, it is antithetical for Christians to look at a naked body in this manner because lust will surely be involved.  Second,  I assume most pornography 'actors' are not married and so using their movies promotes sex outside of marriage.  And even if by chance they are married, their marriage bed is now defiled by inviting others to participate by watching.  At the very least, a market has been created that goes completely against Scripture and the experience of the Church.  Third, there are numerous studies that show pornography to be addictive.  What are we to do with the young man or young woman who, on advice of their priest, to watch a video for training purposes and they become addicted to watching it?  Lastly, I think ZealousZeal makes a great point about communication with your spouse; it's up to each other to communicate what they enjoy or would like to try rather than getting horrible ideas from a porn director.
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 01:15:18 PM »

I understand what you're saying.  However, if you're advocating for discretional use of pornography as teacher, I must disagree.  Pornography is immoral and destructive on several counts.  To begin, it is antithetical for Christians to look at a naked body in this manner because lust will surely be involved.  Second,  I assume most pornography 'actors' are not married and so using their movies promotes sex outside of marriage.  And even if by chance they are married, their marriage bed is now defiled by inviting others to participate by watching.  At the very least, a market has been created that goes completely against Scripture and the experience of the Church.  Third, there are numerous studies that show pornography to be addictive.  What are we to do with the young man or young woman who, on advice of their priest, to watch a video for training purposes and they become addicted to watching it?  Lastly, I think ZealousZeal makes a great point about communication with your spouse; it's up to each other to communicate what they enjoy or would like to try rather than getting horrible ideas from a porn director.

No, I'm not advocating discretional use of pornography.  I qualified my remarks by concluding that I didn't know what the appropriate solution was, only that I felt a particular solution was not the right one. 

It's all well and good to recommend "communicating with your spouse", but it presumes that the spouses have some basis on which to work.  The cases I was told about were cases in which there was no common foundation on which to build.  Porn would not have been appropriate by the standards of that culture, but neither would going to the sexuality section of a bookstore to buy a book or an instructional video (however tastefully done, this would still be considered "porn" by these people), talking with one's friends, talking to a therapist, etc.  In my own community, I know of people who reject professional counseling because "They do not understand our culture or the tradition of our forefathers, they only know how to destroy people's lives": there's a valid observation in there, even if it's also mixed with unfounded fears.  So if "conventional" and "non-conventional" sources of information are verboten, what do you do?  These couples talked to their priest, who helped them out, but really he would rather not have had to do that for a number of reasons. 

As I said, it was a digression from the main topic, I was just reminded of it by ZZ's post.  But, at least in some contexts, it is a valid pastoral consideration that admits of no easy solution. 
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 01:21:33 PM »

I still remember a friend's account from several years ago: his then-girlfriend rented a hardcore Asian skin flick and proceeded to duplicate the on-screen action on him. He was by no means complaining, although he did say something about too much of a good thing. Cheesy

When I was in college, one of my roommates downloaded onto his computer one of those hardcore Asian "films", and when his girlfriend came over one Friday afternoon, he played it to her and invited us to come in and see her reaction.  As expected, she was grossed out, yelled at him, etc., and we had fun with it for about three minutes before returning to whatever we were doing before. 

At some point, she began to really enjoy the film, because she sat in front of the computer and watched four times in a row without any of us knowing, and she had this mesmerised look on her face.  I don't know what happened after that because I went home later that evening, but I think it's safe to say they became fans of the genre. 
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 01:21:52 PM »

This may or may not be TMI, but since it is the trend of the thread, I will go on.

Both my wife and I were virgins when we got married. I had never gotten "the talk" from my parents as they are extremely conservative fundamentalist Baptist types, so even holding hands was an eyebrow raising event while we were dating.  That being said, it was not difficult to figure things out during the honeymoon.  We made some funny mistakes which shall remain unspoken, but humans are kind of wired to figure out the copulation process, so I cannot imagine a scenario where I would need to go to porn to "learn" how to have sex. We continue to have a healthy sex life, but after 10 years, no one is swinging from chandeliers or cracking whips.  I'm not troubled by that, we have what works for us and we enjoy it.  It brings us closer together and that is what is important.
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 01:22:19 PM »

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oh mother, i grieve
I shall never conceive,
I cannot get used to the taste."


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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2013, 01:31:53 PM »

Like many of man’s failings, Porn cannot be dealt with using simple solutions.  This is similar to discussing wide open topics like Protestantism.  How many different types of porn are there?  Each type has its own viewers and followers, and each type addresses a different specific failure of man.  Soft core porn, while a gateway, is probably the easiest to understand.  There is nothing more beautiful in creation than a woman.  Are you admiring their beauty, or are you masturbating?  I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.  The latter is more complicated.  Is masturbating while looking at another woman than the one you married adultery?  Technically (IMO) no.  Would you rather masturbate over porn than sleep with your wife?  Then yes, you are denying her what is rightfully hers.  Or, is the reason that you masturbating to porn the fact that your wife would rather crawl through 100 yards of broken glass than have sex?  Well, that reason may not be an excuse in the eyes of God, but neither is the woman’s behavior.

And what about bondage porn?  Personally, I do not like to see people in pain.  I do not understand the concept of someone desiring to watch a handcuffed woman with alligator clamps fastened to sensitive parts of the body.  I believe there is a real defect a person interested in this, and I would worry about him being loose in society.  But what if looking at that porn is the only reason that he is not outside in society doing this stuff to someone?  Complicated?  Yes.

I can agree with those who say that all porn should be avoided and that man and woman should live together according to the various passages in scripture.  It is always best if we can operate under the ideal situation.  However, when it comes to figuring out why people look at what they do, all I can say is that unless you are watching porn and speaking for yourself, you probably have no idea of what you are talking about.  The world is not an ideal place, and life is not an ideal situation.
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 02:40:03 PM »

Echoing what ZZ said, if two people were in a good relationship/marriage, I don't think that they would need porn. They should be learning and making the effort to sexually satisfy each other instead of allowing each other to go so unsatisfied that they have to resort to pornography (in whatever form) to gain satisfaction.
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 02:40:03 PM »

Romantic comedies are destructive as they give women unrealistic expectations and pollute the mind...have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?

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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

The greatest visual porn also does. It's no different. Only difference is men are visual creatures and women are imaginative creatures. It's still all pornography no matter how you cut it.
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 05:15:06 PM »

It's no different. Only difference is men are visual creatures and women are imaginative creatures. It's still all pornography no matter how you cut it.
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 05:16:42 PM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

The greatest visual porn also does. It's no different. Only difference is men are visual creatures and women are imaginative creatures. It's still all pornography no matter how you cut it.

Visual porn ends in marriage? Is it Rule 34 all over again?
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 05:31:36 PM »

Romantic comedies are destructive as they give women unrealistic expectations and pollute the mind...have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?

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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 05:32:56 PM »

Lol practice.

I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap.

There's no point to porn if you are with someone.

I'm not talking about it being hard to get, I'm talking about the quality of the sex you're having. At the beginning, it's all exciting and new and that's great and fun. What I'm talking about is preventing monogamy from becoming monotony. That takes effort.
What is there to practice?

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

So when things get monotonous are you going to get into a fight with him only to have some hot make-up sex, to get that "quality" back? I know a guy who did the same thing.

Since when did women start controlling what goes on in bed?
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 05:37:52 PM »

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?
Or put down the Cosmpolitan mag.
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 05:38:30 PM »

Pornography is destructive as it gives men unrealistic expectations and pollutes the mind.
Romantic comedies are destructive as they give women unrealistic expectations and pollute the mind.

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?  There's this show called Real Housewives of Orange County.  I would rather watch Brazillian Fart P0rn than that tripe.  I saw this other on MTV that had these vile creatures that work at a bar in Texas or something.  I don't remember what it is called but these people!  We are getting to barnyard gay buk**** levels of disgusting here.



Did I ever post that study about the rate of happiness in relationship vs how often and much someone enjoys what you likely describing as rom-coms?

They were referring to chick flicks really, not the Real Housewives garbage but the stuff I specialize in.

People who enjoy the garbage I watch a lot are incredibly happy in a relationship the newer it is versus those who found such garbage to be garbage. And those who like my sorta garbage just find relationships disappointing after 9 months to two years.

It didn't matter if you were a woman or man. The correlation was there.

I am an outlier. I am pretty much miserable from data one through the whole stalking her next boyfriend phase which is what I think shrinks call "acceptance" in the grieving process.
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 05:39:06 PM »

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?  There's this show called Real Housewives of Orange County.  I would rather watch Brazillian Fart P0rn than that tripe.  I saw this other on MTV that had these vile creatures that work at a bar in Texas or something.  I don't remember what it is called but these people!  We are getting to barnyard gay buk**** levels of disgusting here.

Why would you watch that?
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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 05:41:36 PM »

I am an outlier. I am pretty much miserable from data one through the whole stalking her next boyfriend phase which is what I think shrinks call "acceptance" in the grieving process.
You are OC.net's Brad Paisley.

Following her to see what driveway she pulls into.

Sometimes I lose sight how much of a romantic you really are or how large of heart you have.
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 05:41:52 PM »

Lol practice.

I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap.

There's no point to porn if you are with someone.

I'm not talking about it being hard to get, I'm talking about the quality of the sex you're having. At the beginning, it's all exciting and new and that's great and fun. What I'm talking about is preventing monogamy from becoming monotony. That takes effort.

Another misconception about men and women.

Men are not so neophilic as women are. Women show less interest in sex as a relationship grows not cause they are less interested in sex as such, but because they are less interested in sex with who they are with. (Enter all the so-called Romance literature.)

Women show greater happiness in open relationships then men do.

Men may like to talk about screwing around, think about it, etc. But women would rather really rather just do it.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 05:43:51 PM »

But women would rather really rather just do it.
Is this a chance where I can tell you an anecdotal story of a missed opportunity to date a black woman?

She described how liked having sex. "Just get it over with, no touching, hugging, kissing."

EDIT: Unless you were talking about the open relationship, then ignore.
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2013, 05:48:44 PM »

But women would rather really rather just do it.
Is this a chance where I can tell you an anecdotal story of a missed opportunity to date a black woman?

She described how liked having sex. "Just get it over with, no touching, hugging, kissing."

EDIT: Unless you were talking about the open relationship, then ignore.
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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2013, 05:53:21 PM »

What is there to practice?

I used "Practice makes perfect" as a humor device to indicate that when you're married, the more sex the better.

Quote
And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

How amazing for them.

My main point which seems to have gotten lost along the way, was that the more sex you have with your spouse, the more familiar you become with their likes and dislikes which ultimately makes sex more enjoyable for you both, and makes you a better partner. Turning to porn so you can get off quickly and easily I perceive as lazy. I believe I said it was a cop-out, by which I meant that you're doing it for you, instead of putting in the effort with your spouse.

Quote
So when things get monotonous are you going to get into a fight with him only to have some hot make-up sex, to get that "quality" back? I know a guy who did the same thing.

Since when did women start controlling what goes on in bed?

Where are you getting this from? I think you should re-read my post, because I don't think you got what I meant by quality. And to answer your question: No. The only reason I fight with my husband is if I genuinely feel like we have something to fight about, and even then- fighting isn't the goal. I don't like fighting with him. I'm not 16 and I'm not into games like that. 

I have no idea what you're talking about with women controlling what goes on in bed.
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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2013, 05:58:33 PM »

But women would rather really rather just do it.
Is this a chance where I can tell you an anecdotal story of a missed opportunity to date a black woman?

She described how liked having sex. "Just get it over with, no touching, hugging, kissing."

EDIT: Unless you were talking about the open relationship, then ignore.
Just as the Fathers recommend

LOL.
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« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2013, 06:01:32 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
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« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2013, 06:03:14 PM »

Another misconception about men and women.

Men are not so neophilic as women are. Women show less interest in sex as a relationship grows not cause they are less interested in sex as such, but because they are less interested in sex with who they are with. (Enter all the so-called Romance literature.)

Women show greater happiness in open relationships then men do.

Men may like to talk about screwing around, think about it, etc. But women would rather really rather just do it.

So you're saying that women are neophallic?  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2013, 06:06:19 PM »

Another misconception about men and women.

Men are not so neophilic as women are. Women show less interest in sex as a relationship grows not cause they are less interested in sex as such, but because they are less interested in sex with who they are with. (Enter all the so-called Romance literature.)

Women show greater happiness in open relationships then men do.

Men may like to talk about screwing around, think about it, etc. But women would rather really rather just do it.

So you're saying that women are neophallic?  Wink

Well marc likely wishes they were paleophallic, but yes . . .
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« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2013, 06:13:51 PM »

I used "Practice makes perfect" as a humor device to indicate that when you're married, the more sex the better.
OK well when I thought you said that about practice, I understood that as...well nevermind.

Quote
My main point which seems to have gotten lost along the way, was that the more sex you have with your spouse, the more familiar you become with their likes and dislikes which ultimately makes sex more enjoyable for you both, and makes you a better partner. Turning to porn so you can get off quickly and easily I perceive as lazy. I believe I said it was a cop-out, by which I meant that you're doing it for you, instead of putting in the effort with your spouse.
I don't think its necessarily laziness though.

If I could be JamesR for a moment, yeah the initial surprise of seeing your other partner naked for the first time and then doing the act that first time...then doing it a couple more times after that, months go by and then that newness does go away. So then men watch porn to fantasize about having sex with another woman and exert a better orgasm than their current partner.

But I think it is more than that though. If the guy is in a long relationship or married, loses interest with having sex with his partner and resorts to using porn to stimulate himself to achieve better pleasure...I think there is more going on there than just achieving this simple pleasure.

Falling out of love, stressed out, upset at that other person, etc.

You can call me a selfish pig for this, but maybe being monogamous ain't really all that its chalked up to be for those people.

Personally if I am still in love with that other person, I want to have sex with them. If I fall out of love...when then yeah it slows down quite a bit.


Quote
because I don't think you got what I meant by quality.

And this quality being what the other person likes and then satisfying it?

Can you just be direct in exactly what you mean by quality sex? What is it, please describe it.
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« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2013, 06:15:13 PM »

Another misconception about men and women.

Men are not so neophilic as women are. Women show less interest in sex as a relationship grows not cause they are less interested in sex as such, but because they are less interested in sex with who they are with. (Enter all the so-called Romance literature.)

Women show greater happiness in open relationships then men do.

Men may like to talk about screwing around, think about it, etc. But women would rather really rather just do it.

So you're saying that women are neophallic?  Wink

Well marc likely wishes they were paleophallic, but yes . . .
Perfect LOL.
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« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2013, 06:18:26 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.
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« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2013, 06:27:48 PM »

I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I agree with you re: puritanism more than I disagree, I suspect.  But it's not the case that it is always puritanism.  Sometimes it's just a matter of respect for the sacred and a desire not to drag it down to the level of the profane. 
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« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2013, 06:29:27 PM »

If I could be JamesR for a moment, yeah the initial surprise of seeing your other partner naked for the first time and then doing the act that first time...then doing it a couple more times after that, months go by and then that newness does go away. So then men watch porn to fantasize about having sex with another woman and exert a better orgasm than their current partner.

But I think it is more than that though. If the guy is in a long relationship or married, loses interest with having sex with his partner and resorts to using porn to stimulate himself to achieve better pleasure...I think there is more going on there than just achieving this simple pleasure.

Falling out of love, stressed out, upset at that other person, etc.

You can call me a selfish pig for this, but maybe being monogamous ain't really all that its chalked up to be for those people.

Personally if I am still in love with that other person, I want to have sex with them. If I fall out of love...when then yeah it slows down quite a bit.



Sure- those are good points and I don't disagree. There's a lot that could be at play. But I see that as an argument for my point. "Falling out of love" isn't an event, it's a process (usually with an event at the end). If you're stressed out or upset with the other person and you just want a quick release, you're not doing your marriage any favors. You're being lazy. Talking to your spouse or hashing it out or whatever would all be healthier options, and they all take work.


Quote
And this quality being what the other person likes and then satisfying it?

Can you just be direct in exactly what you mean by quality sex? What is it, please describe it.

Yes to your bolded part, more or less. All I meant by quality was a barometer for whatever good sex means to you and your spouse. I brought it up because you said: "I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap." By which I took you to mean that someone uses porn because their partner is turning them down. Which is possible for sure, but not what I initially meant when I was talking about laziness. So I said: "I'm not talking about it being hard to get, I'm talking about the quality of the sex you're having." And I said I didn't think you understood what I meant because you started talking about me pulling stunts to get my "quality back".
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« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2013, 06:31:40 PM »

I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I agree with you re: puritanism more than I disagree, I suspect.  But it's not the case that it is always puritanism.  Sometimes it's just a matter of respect for the sacred and a desire not to drag it down to the level of the profane.  
Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

i think you meant taboo.
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« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2013, 06:36:28 PM »

Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

Song of Songs. The crowning ceremony and wedding blessings (undefiled bed, offspring, etc.) are a Mystery just like the Eucharist.

Quote from: Mark 10:6-9
From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
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« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2013, 06:37:51 PM »

Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

Song of Songs. Crowning Ceremony and wedding blessings.

Quote from: Mark 10:6-9
From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Why did Jesus never have sex then? I mean if being a man he should leave his parents to cleave to his wife.
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« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2013, 06:43:35 PM »

Why did Jesus never have sex then? I mean if being a man he should leave his parents to cleave to his wife.

He did (leave His parents to cleave to His Wife):

Quote from: Ephesians 5:30-32
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.
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« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2013, 06:47:13 PM »

Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

i think you meant taboo.

I meant what I wrote.  Permit me to suggest respectfully that your history may be clouding your vision.  I'm not a saint by any means--without intending to appear pious, I know I'm worse--but I also know beauty and holiness when I see it, and sex has both.  If you can only see this by ennobling defecation, I feel sorry for you.

And please refer to Romaios, he seems to have discerned my intent.          
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« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2013, 06:47:31 PM »

Romaios I know that, and I find it to be very beautiful, but does this not betray some of Christ being fully man?
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« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2013, 06:50:03 PM »

I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I agree with you re: puritanism more than I disagree, I suspect.  But it's not the case that it is always puritanism.  Sometimes it's just a matter of respect for the sacred and a desire not to drag it down to the level of the profane.  
Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

i think you meant taboo.

You don't think the act in which we get to be co-creators of life with God is sacred? If it wasn't then why on earth would God or the Church care about when you can do it and who with?
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« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »

Romaios I know that, and I find it to be very beautiful, but does this not betray some of Christ being fully man?

Not in the least.

And I don't doubt that monks and nuns who live chaste lives are fully human too.
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« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2013, 06:52:57 PM »

Romaios I know that, and I find it to be very beautiful, but does this not betray some of Christ being fully man?

Not in the least.

And I don't doubt that monks and nuns who live chaste lives are fully human too.
Well you won't find an argument from me, I have nothing.
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« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2013, 06:55:05 PM »

Since when is sex sacred though?

The Eucharist is sacred, the entire Church is sacred.

But sex?

I don't think so. If you think pooping is sacred too, then I guess.

i think you meant taboo.

I meant what I wrote.  Permit me to suggest respectfully that your history may be clouding your vision.  I'm not a saint by any means--without intending to appear pious, I know I'm worse--but I also know beauty and holiness when I see it, and sex has both.  If you can only see this by ennobling defecation, I feel sorry for you.

And please refer to Romaios, he seems to have discerned my intent.          
it seems to me that the sex or at least marital sex is sacred meme is  just a damage control device that wasn't used much before, in those times where women's sex life was way more firmly controlled by fathers, older brothers, families, clan, in a word, when women were a bit more than a herd of cows. Now, when feminist ideas gained some street cred, the meme is used mostly in order to make people internalize and spiritualize and achieve the very thing, that was before achieved by more extraneous means.
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« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2013, 06:57:54 PM »

. I brought it up because you said: "I've never been in a relationship where it was hard to get sex. Never got the I'm not in the mood crap." By which I took you to mean that someone uses porn because their partner is turning them down.

No that's not what I meant.

You said:

Quote
Turning to porn to meet your needs instead of your spouse is quick and easy.

As I said, turning to whatever partner I was with wasn't hard to do, and beats trying to hide it while covering up the bottle of Jergens. I've heard of folks having problems having sex with their partners because they didn't want to or whatever reason.

Some people use porn to get off because they can't from their partner, sure.
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« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2013, 07:00:31 PM »

Well you won't find an argument from me, I have nothing.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you.  Smiley

But I'm sure your partners would appreciate your discretion. Talking about such things is like "uncovering" their (and your) "nakedness" all over again. Compared to that, nudambulism is a lot more innocent.  Wink
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« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2013, 08:10:54 PM »

it seems to me that the sex or at least marital sex is sacred meme is  just a damage control device that wasn't used much before, in those times where women's sex life was way more firmly controlled by fathers, older brothers, families, clan, in a word, when women were a bit more than a herd of cows. Now, when feminist ideas gained some street cred, the meme is used mostly in order to make people internalize and spiritualize and achieve the very thing, that was before achieved by more extraneous means.

Yours is an interesting consideration, and there may be some truth to it, at least in terms of how families and cultures in different times and places viewed sexuality.  My perspective was more theological.  The marriage service, Scripture, etc. present marriage and sexuality in a particular way, even if the people at the service don't agree with it or haven't even picked up on it. 
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« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2013, 08:11:51 PM »

Like many of man’s failings, Porn cannot be dealt with using simple solutions.  This is similar to discussing wide open topics like Protestantism.  How many different types of porn are there?  Each type has its own viewers and followers, and each type addresses a different specific failure of man.  Soft core porn, while a gateway, is probably the easiest to understand.  There is nothing more beautiful in creation than a woman.  Are you admiring their beauty, or are you masturbating?  I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.  The latter is more complicated.  Is masturbating while looking at another woman than the one you married adultery?  Technically (IMO) no.  Would you rather masturbate over porn than sleep with your wife?  Then yes, you are denying her what is rightfully hers.  Or, is the reason that you masturbating to porn the fact that your wife would rather crawl through 100 yards of broken glass than have sex?  Well, that reason may not be an excuse in the eyes of God, but neither is the woman’s behavior.

And what about bondage porn?  Personally, I do not like to see people in pain.  I do not understand the concept of someone desiring to watch a handcuffed woman with alligator clamps fastened to sensitive parts of the body.  I believe there is a real defect a person interested in this, and I would worry about him being loose in society.  But what if looking at that porn is the only reason that he is not outside in society doing this stuff to someone?  Complicated?  Yes.

I can agree with those who say that all porn should be avoided and that man and woman should live together according to the various passages in scripture.  It is always best if we can operate under the ideal situation.  However, when it comes to figuring out why people look at what they do, all I can say is that unless you are watching porn and speaking for yourself, you probably have no idea of what you are talking about.  The world is not an ideal place, and life is not an ideal situation.


For the most part I disagree with this post.

We were commanded by God to:  Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

We should not be admiring the beauty of other women.  I think most men would admit that this "admiration" is merely a glossed over word for "lust".   I wholeheartedly believe that most men would BOTH admire the beauty, and there would absolutely be at least a small part of lust (probably a lot more).

But in our scriptures, we are not even supposed to look at a woman lustfully.   We are not supposed to admire their beauty unless we are married (song of songs).

Can one really say "I'm going to go sit down here on the ol' puter and look up naked women to admire their beauty"?   Of course there is lust involved.

Think of how far pornography has come into brainwashing society into making it more acceptable.   We should NOT be lured by the father of lies to make excuses for it. (not saying Punch is).   But the evil one can be very convincing, even to the point of making us "make logical reasoning" to excuse the use of pornography.    We all know in our hearts it is wrong.... I know we do.
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« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2013, 08:24:08 PM »

Like many of man’s failings, Porn cannot be dealt with using simple solutions.  This is similar to discussing wide open topics like Protestantism.  How many different types of porn are there?  Each type has its own viewers and followers, and each type addresses a different specific failure of man.  Soft core porn, while a gateway, is probably the easiest to understand.  There is nothing more beautiful in creation than a woman.  Are you admiring their beauty, or are you masturbating?  I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.  The latter is more complicated.  Is masturbating while looking at another woman than the one you married adultery?  Technically (IMO) no.  Would you rather masturbate over porn than sleep with your wife?  Then yes, you are denying her what is rightfully hers.  Or, is the reason that you masturbating to porn the fact that your wife would rather crawl through 100 yards of broken glass than have sex?  Well, that reason may not be an excuse in the eyes of God, but neither is the woman’s behavior.

And what about bondage porn?  Personally, I do not like to see people in pain.  I do not understand the concept of someone desiring to watch a handcuffed woman with alligator clamps fastened to sensitive parts of the body.  I believe there is a real defect a person interested in this, and I would worry about him being loose in society.  But what if looking at that porn is the only reason that he is not outside in society doing this stuff to someone?  Complicated?  Yes.

I can agree with those who say that all porn should be avoided and that man and woman should live together according to the various passages in scripture.  It is always best if we can operate under the ideal situation.  However, when it comes to figuring out why people look at what they do, all I can say is that unless you are watching porn and speaking for yourself, you probably have no idea of what you are talking about.  The world is not an ideal place, and life is not an ideal situation.


For the most part I disagree with this post.

There is nothing to disagree with. This Pensive Punch and Pastoral Punch. He's hard to argue with cause usually he isn't arguing, he is simply owning.
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« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2013, 10:32:43 PM »

Like many of man’s failings, Porn cannot be dealt with using simple solutions.  This is similar to discussing wide open topics like Protestantism.  How many different types of porn are there?  Each type has its own viewers and followers, and each type addresses a different specific failure of man.  Soft core porn, while a gateway, is probably the easiest to understand.  There is nothing more beautiful in creation than a woman.  Are you admiring their beauty, or are you masturbating?  I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.  The latter is more complicated.  Is masturbating while looking at another woman than the one you married adultery?  Technically (IMO) no.  Would you rather masturbate over porn than sleep with your wife?  Then yes, you are denying her what is rightfully hers.  Or, is the reason that you masturbating to porn the fact that your wife would rather crawl through 100 yards of broken glass than have sex?  Well, that reason may not be an excuse in the eyes of God, but neither is the woman’s behavior.

And what about bondage porn?  Personally, I do not like to see people in pain.  I do not understand the concept of someone desiring to watch a handcuffed woman with alligator clamps fastened to sensitive parts of the body.  I believe there is a real defect a person interested in this, and I would worry about him being loose in society.  But what if looking at that porn is the only reason that he is not outside in society doing this stuff to someone?  Complicated?  Yes.

I can agree with those who say that all porn should be avoided and that man and woman should live together according to the various passages in scripture.  It is always best if we can operate under the ideal situation.  However, when it comes to figuring out why people look at what they do, all I can say is that unless you are watching porn and speaking for yourself, you probably have no idea of what you are talking about.  The world is not an ideal place, and life is not an ideal situation.


For the most part I disagree with this post.

There is nothing to disagree with. This Pensive Punch and Pastoral Punch. He's hard to argue with cause usually he isn't arguing, he is simply owning.

It's this part in particular
Quote
I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.

If you are looking up pornography to "admire" the beauty of a woman (albeit soft core), I believe this is only the evil one feeding lies.   Basically, of course lust exists...  If a man consistently "admires" the beauty of other women than his wife, he is desiring something about them.   One does not need to masturbate to commit adultery of the heart.

But I used a strong statement at the beginning of my post.  I don't disagree with MOST of it, just some of it.
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« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2013, 11:36:10 PM »

Also, have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?  There's this show called Real Housewives of Orange County.  I would rather watch Brazillian Fart P0rn than that tripe.  I saw this other on MTV that had these vile creatures that work at a bar in Texas or something.  I don't remember what it is called but these people!  We are getting to barnyard gay buk**** levels of disgusting here.

Why would you watch that?

Not by choice, I assure you.  The GF always has it playing on the boob tube.  Usually I'm sitting here, minding my own business, making chainmail in the living room and I am subjected to some greasy harlot complaining about how Trampzilla was showing too much dirty pillow to greasy harlot's boyfriend ("her man", if you will) and then the screen pans back to Trampzilla throwing a temper tantrum about how she doesn't care what greasy harlot and her friends Poledancer and Dumpsterlover are saying about her, she's a strong independent woman (hear me rawr) and doesn't care about if they don't like her...and then starts crying great big tears of chicken grease smearing her mascara about how everyone is mean to her.  Then they start fighting which is kinda cool but then some Sir Galahad wannabe chumps break it up before you get to see any blood or nudity. 

Poisons the mind, I tell ya.

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« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2013, 12:22:56 AM »

Yeah, that sounds about right.  Sadly, I also know.  Sad
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« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

Visual porn ends in marriage?

Ask Germany or Amsterdam; they got porn for just about anything conceivable and then some.
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« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

Ironically enough, I observe more religious people harboring a blunt, explicit obsession with sex and constantly talking about and/or badgering their parishioners about it more than I observe in the so-called "secular world."
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« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2013, 03:08:11 AM »

I think YiM is spot on. 
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« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2013, 05:53:40 AM »

I was going to make a post related to this. And how being a eunuch seemed preferred to the disciples if one can not get alone perfectly with their wives because their wife might offend them e.g not accepting his work mates or ambitions for religions sake. If they are not willing to take that cross they should be a eunuch. It makes me think I should be a eunuch if I don't have a wife who completely pleases me. What is one to do if he is married to an evil or stubborn or blinded woman?
If my wife does not please me I may wish I was alone so I can enjoy my life more but I would not cheat on her
St Paul says the wife should try to win over their husbands by their conduct but the husband must never oppress his wife
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« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2013, 06:05:47 AM »

I was going to make a post related to this. And how being a eunuch seemed preferred to the disciples if one can not get alone perfectly with their wives because their wife might offend them e.g not accepting his work mates or ambitions for religions sake. If they are not willing to take that cross they should be a eunuch. It makes me think I should be a eunuch if I don't have a wife who completely pleases me. What is one to do if he is married to an evil or stubborn or blinded woman?
If my wife does not please me I may wish I was alone so I can enjoy my life more but I would not cheat on her
St Paul says the wife should try to win over their husbands by their conduct but the husband must never oppress his wife


When you say eunuch, you mean it in the broader sense of a celibate, right?

Let's not do anything too drastic...
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« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2013, 06:10:01 AM »

When you say eunuch, you mean it in the broader sense of a celibate, right?

Let's not do anything too drastic...

Or irreversible, for that matter.
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« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2013, 06:31:30 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Oh,
why?Huh?
for all who about to read fifty shades of grey you've spoiled it. now we know the end. thanx
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« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2013, 06:33:20 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Oh,
why?Huh?
for all who about to read fifty shades of grey you've spoiled it. now we know the end. thanx

You're not serious, are you?
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« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2013, 06:36:21 AM »

Romantic comedies are destructive as they give women unrealistic expectations and pollute the mind...have any of you actually seen the stuff some girls watch?

Welcome to The Notebook, ruining relationships since 2004  Wink

Even for a Don Juan like you?
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« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2013, 06:37:41 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Oh,
why?Huh?
for all who about to read fifty shades of grey you've spoiled it. now we know the end. thanx

Why would anyone want to subject themselves to such torture? I mean, really. I'd cry if I were that woman's editor.
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« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2013, 07:02:42 AM »

I was going to make a post related to this. And how being a eunuch seemed preferred to the disciples if one can not get alone perfectly with their wives because their wife might offend them e.g not accepting his work mates or ambitions for religions sake. If they are not willing to take that cross they should be a eunuch. It makes me think I should be a eunuch if I don't have a wife who completely pleases me. What is one to do if he is married to an evil or stubborn or blinded woman?
If my wife does not please me I may wish I was alone so I can enjoy my life more but I would not cheat on her
St Paul says the wife should try to win over their husbands by their conduct but the husband must never oppress his wife


When you say eunuch, you mean it in the broader sense of a celibate, right?

Let's not do anything too drastic...

yes I do mean that: to be celibate
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« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2013, 07:17:35 AM »

You'd watch porn because your activity is sexually aberrational in the first place (aka sinful). Sex was left by God towards procreation, but over time, it turned into an object in itself. Even within Orthodoxy, many people believe sex is a sort of a way to become one and/or a way of obtaining pleasure from one another, yet sex was blessed within the sacrament of marriage, marriage meaning forming a family and giving birth to children. Marriage ceases to be a sacrament when people have sex only for the erotic aspect; they cease to be of spiritual use to themselves and the community and become sort of an introverted and separate unit that focuses on carnality. Carnality would be a spiritual sin (even outside of marriage, of course, since there shouldn't be "outside of marriage" to boot). Now, I know sparks will fly from me saying this. My answer, as always: to each, their own.
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« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2013, 07:21:49 AM »

nvm
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« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2013, 08:06:02 AM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Oh,
why?Huh?
for all who about to read fifty shades of grey you've spoiled it. now we know the end. thanx

You're not serious, are you?


Just kidding
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« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2013, 11:06:31 AM »

You'd watch porn because your activity is sexually aberrational in the first place (aka sinful). Sex was left by God towards procreation, but over time, it turned into an object in itself. Even within Orthodoxy, many people believe sex is a sort of a way to become one and/or a way of obtaining pleasure from one another, yet sex was blessed within the sacrament of marriage, marriage meaning forming a family and giving birth to children. Marriage ceases to be a sacrament when people have sex only for the erotic aspect; they cease to be of spiritual use to themselves and the community and become sort of an introverted and separate unit that focuses on carnality. Carnality would be a spiritual sin (even outside of marriage, of course, since there shouldn't be "outside of marriage" to boot). Now, I know sparks will fly from me saying this.

+

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My answer, as always: to each, their own.

=

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Marriage ceases to be a sacrament when...

The more I learn, read, and observe, etc., the more difficult it seems to "define" marriage.
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« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2013, 11:11:59 AM »

And God is probably thinking, "Geez people, it isn't that hard.  Pick someone of the opposite sex, have it blessed by the Church, commit to them for the rest of your brief life and you have a marriage. What part of that process don't you get?"  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2013, 11:12:58 AM »

You'd watch porn because your activity is sexually aberrational in the first place (aka sinful). Sex was left by God towards procreation, but over time, it turned into an object in itself. Even within Orthodoxy, many people believe sex is a sort of a way to become one and/or a way of obtaining pleasure from one another, yet sex was blessed within the sacrament of marriage, marriage meaning forming a family and giving birth to children. Marriage ceases to be a sacrament when people have sex only for the erotic aspect; they cease to be of spiritual use to themselves and the community and become sort of an introverted and separate unit that focuses on carnality. Carnality would be a spiritual sin (even outside of marriage, of course, since there shouldn't be "outside of marriage" to boot). Now, I know sparks will fly from me saying this.

+

Quote
My answer, as always: to each, their own.

=

 Angry

Marriage ceases to be a sacrament when...

The more I learn, read, and observe, etc., the more difficult it seems to "define" marriage.

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.
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« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2013, 01:26:45 PM »

Marriage is serious.

I agree.

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Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

My impression of you is that you feel you are doing this, and yet I disagree with most of what you have to say about the subject.  And I've engaged in similar study.   

By all means, learn from the saints, the holy fathers, and theologians.  But also learn from Scripture and from the liturgy, which need to be incorporated into any Christian vision of marriage and which you seem to ignore.  Also, marriage is a very human institution.  You can't theologise it to oblivion, you need to understand something about human nature, the person you are married to, family, cultural/societal norms, etc.  It's not enough to refer to Elder X and Schemamonk Y for your views on marriage; I doubt very much that Elder X and Schemamonk Y are going to be consulting Mrs Z any time soon to learn about proper monastic life.   
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« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2013, 03:29:17 PM »

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

Doesn't seem to suggest marriage is very serious considering most people back then appeared to just marry on a whim after giving the father of the bride a donkey or some crap. And then divorcing the moment the husband has a spiritual awakening and decides to become a monk.

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.
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« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2013, 03:51:48 PM »

And God is probably thinking, "Geez people, it isn't that hard.  Pick someone of the opposite sex, have it blessed by the Church, commit to them for the rest of your brief life and you have a marriage. What part of that process don't you get?"  Grin

We people is slow lernerz. Wink
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« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2013, 04:17:13 PM »

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

Doesn't seem to suggest marriage is very serious considering most people back then appeared to just marry on a whim after giving the father of the bride a donkey or some crap.

When have cow pies ever been an acceptable dowry? 

Quote
This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

But the Song of Songs was in the original 1611 Authorised Version.  You're at least two hundred years off. 
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« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2013, 04:22:16 PM »

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

Doesn't seem to suggest marriage is very serious considering most people back then appeared to just marry on a whim after giving the father of the bride a donkey or some crap.

When have cow pies ever been an acceptable dowry? 

Quote
This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

But the Song of Songs was in the original 1611 Authorised Version.  You're at least two hundred years off. 
Awesome rebuttal LOL
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« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2013, 04:28:15 PM »

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

Catullus begs to differ.
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« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2013, 04:43:48 PM »

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

I keep having to remind myself that, since you don't bother with fiction, any reference to medieval romances would go waaaaay over your head.
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« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2013, 04:46:37 PM »

Here's some romantic poetry from 700BC-550AD

Yes, James isn't too bothered by facts.
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« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2013, 04:50:56 PM »

Here's some romantic poetry from 700BC-550AD

*clickysave*

Yes, James isn't too bothered by facts.

Not when they interfere with hangups, no.
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« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2013, 05:01:58 PM »

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

Catullus begs to differ.

Isn't he the guy who threatened to ram radishes and fish up someone's pooper if he took away his boy?  If that ain't love, I don't want to know what is.
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« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2013, 05:06:04 PM »

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

Catullus begs to differ.

Isn't he the guy who threatened to ram radishes and fish up someone's pooper if he took away his boy?  If that ain't love, I don't want to know what is.

Yes. This poem (NSFW) of Catullus is even more explicit. It's a response to some guys who thought his romantic poems effeminate.

Sticking radishes up someone's behind was the punishment that the laws prescribed for adulterers in Antiquity.
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« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2013, 05:34:46 PM »

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

Catullus begs to differ.

Isn't he the guy who threatened to ram radishes and fish up someone's pooper if he took away his boy?  If that ain't love, I don't want to know what is.

Yes. This poem (NSFW) of Catullus is even more explicit. It's a response to some guys who thought his romantic poems effeminate.

Sticking radishes up someone's behind was the punishment that the laws prescribed for adulterers in Antiquity.
whoa that poem.  Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2013, 06:12:38 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.
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« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2013, 06:16:22 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.
I haven't posted anything of detail in this thread. Maybe that other one, but that's only because I strongly believe you should be having sex if you are in a relationship with someone you love.

You are 100% right nobody cares about it and really nobody should.

I am only using my experience to backup my opinions on it.

I am sorry if I have come across as such. But you should know that people who are transperant in their relationships (such as useless superficial gossip like how good the sex was, kinda what ZealousZeal talked about) is sort of common amongst we Americans.
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« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2013, 06:16:31 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.

Basically. When I hear people complain about their relationships etc., I think, "You're the one who gets yourself into these messes."
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« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2013, 06:20:04 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.

Basically. When I hear people complain about their relationships etc., I think, "You're the one who gets yourself into these messes."
Wanna tell that to Asteriktos' face?
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« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2013, 06:21:21 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.

Basically. When I hear people complain about their relationships etc., I think, "You're the one who gets yourself into these messes."
Wanna tell that to Asteriktos' face?
He admitted to that himself.  But again, its below the belt to bring him into it since he isn't here.  Sad
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« Reply #116 on: October 23, 2013, 06:25:47 PM »

And my partners got "quality" sex throughout the duration of the relationships I have been in, longest 3 years. Didn't need to spice it up or anything ridiculous.

Lately you have quite a penchant for discussing your sexual history with us.  Is everything OK?       
Because I don't think people are as blunt as they should be when it comes to the topic of sex.

I am not trying to intentionally brag about whatever history I have. I just think the puritanism that creeps up out of religious people obfuscates the question rather than answering it clearly.

I think Mor is right on this one. You're coming across as creepy and attention-seeking. Nobody cares about your sex life.

I only post this because the transparency that people have about their relationships enfuriates me. I think it's pretty degenerate. One friend of mine used to let another friend know whenever he had sex. The other guy knew exactly how many times he and the girl had done it, and when. What the hell? Have some dignity. That goes for you, too.

Basically. When I hear people complain about their relationships etc., I think, "You're the one who gets yourself into these messes."
Wanna tell that to Asteriktos' face?

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« Reply #117 on: October 23, 2013, 06:26:23 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
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« Reply #118 on: October 23, 2013, 06:30:09 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
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« Reply #119 on: October 23, 2013, 06:31:09 PM »

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

Doesn't seem to suggest marriage is very serious considering most people back then appeared to just marry on a whim after giving the father of the bride a donkey or some crap. And then divorcing the moment the husband has a spiritual awakening and decides to become a monk.

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.
Or consider the divorce rate.

Weddings are obviously more important now than the marriage. How many new TV shows have I seen just on the wedding? I can count on more than one hand.
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« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2013, 06:33:23 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.
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« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2013, 06:34:24 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.
It isn't a hard concept to understand, but it is dang hard to do.
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« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2013, 06:35:49 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
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« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2013, 06:36:53 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
I didn't realize he was happily married.

And weren't you the one just PMing me about relationship advice?
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« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2013, 06:37:40 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
lol, I never said I was happily married.  Some days I'm happy, other days I am downright frustrated.   Grin

On a serious note. All in all, I would say I'm fairly happy with my marriage.  We deal with issues just like any couple does, but she really is a wonderful wife and I am most fortunate to have her.
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« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2013, 06:43:04 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
lol, I never said I was happily married.

My mistake.
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« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2013, 07:06:51 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
more like the Chopra Deepak wisdom generator
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« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2013, 07:09:44 PM »

Marriage is serious. Best for one to read as much he can from saints, fathers and theology.

Or, you know, experience it.  Life and all that.

Doesn't seem to suggest marriage is very serious considering most people back then appeared to just marry on a whim after giving the father of the bride a donkey or some crap. And then divorcing the moment the husband has a spiritual awakening and decides to become a monk.

This whole romantic notion of love and marriage--and monogamy itself--is just a product of 19th century Western European culture. It has nothing to do with religion.

Grow up and stop reading comparative gender lit.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2013, 07:46:41 PM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Batman XXX. Considered by many fans of the '60s show to be almost as good as having a new episode of the series- there's even a version with all the sex edited out. "Some veneer of story" is as poor an excuse as "I only get it for the articles."
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« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2013, 07:55:48 PM »

What about folks that don't know a marriage is a mess until years after the fact? Did they get themselves initially in it? No.

I dunno, maybe you're not the type of person to work things out I guess.
A marriage is what you make it and it takes two to make it.
Sounds like a nice bumper sticker.

Said the armchair relationship expert to the happily married man.
more like the Chopra Deepak wisdom generator
lol, that's me!

If you impart more than 15 syllables of wisdom in one post, it is a lost cause.  laugh
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« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2013, 07:59:32 PM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Batman XXX. Considered by many fans of the '60s show to be almost as good as having a new episode of the series- there's even a version with all the sex edited out. "Some veneer of story" is as poor an excuse as "I only get it for the articles."

I am tired of everyone poo pooing people getting playboy only for the articles.  They can be pretty good sometime.  If you are getting playboy for anything but the articles you're doing it wrong.
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« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2013, 08:05:32 PM »

Eh, women do the same thing except it comes packaged in "romance" novels like 50 Shades of Gray. Is porn wrong? Yes. It's exploiting another person's suffering--the porn star, many of which suffer depression and/or other issues--and cheating on your mate to an extent. But the thing that bothers me is that many people make this out to be an evil male problem and exclude women from the equation. Why don't we talk about those millions of women who read pornography in the form of novels? It's no different, except it's made to appeal to women more than men.

Romance/smut novels at least have some veneer of story, and usually end in marriage. Even 50 Shades.

Newsflash: Women watch porn too.

Batman XXX. Considered by many fans of the '60s show to be almost as good as having a new episode of the series- there's even a version with all the sex edited out. "Some veneer of story" is as poor an excuse as "I only get it for the articles."
I just googled this. That Catwoman looks mighty fine.

I thought the Nolan trilogy was enough Batman pron.

I miss the nipples on the batsuit from the Schumacher films.
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« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2013, 08:46:27 PM »

I am sorry if I have come across as such. But you should know that people who are transperant in their relationships (such as useless superficial gossip like how good the sex was, kinda what ZealousZeal talked about) is sort of common amongst we Americans.

I certainly hope that everyone reading my posts was clear that I was talking about the quality of marital sex (and how I feel porn could damage it) in a very general sense. I was not gossiping about my own sex life, and I don't think that's what you meant by that but just in case I want to clarify. I have no problem talking about sex, but I do make it a point not to talk about my own sex life online or IRL.
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« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2013, 08:55:05 PM »

Does anyone find it ironic that some are posting things of a pornographic nature for others to check out on google? Like Batman xxx? What's the point in even bringing this up, EXCEPT to alert others to its existence so they can then view the porn in question?
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« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2013, 08:57:00 PM »

Does anyone find it ironic that some are posting things of a pornographic nature for others to check out on google? Like Batman xxx? What's the point in even bringing this up, EXCEPT to alert others to its existence so they can then view the porn in question?
Just be glad it doesn't star Adam West.
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« Reply #135 on: October 23, 2013, 08:58:40 PM »

Miss the point much?
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« Reply #136 on: October 23, 2013, 09:38:24 PM »

I am sorry if I have come across as such. But you should know that people who are transperant in their relationships (such as useless superficial gossip like how good the sex was, kinda what ZealousZeal talked about) is sort of common amongst we Americans.

I certainly hope that everyone reading my posts was clear that I was talking about the quality of marital sex (and how I feel porn could damage it) in a very general sense. I was not gossiping about my own sex life, and I don't think that's what you meant by that but just in case I want to clarify. I have no problem talking about sex, but I do make it a point not to talk about my own sex life online or IRL.
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« Reply #137 on: October 23, 2013, 11:03:22 PM »

I think Mor is right on this one.

I just wanted to enjoy that for a moment.  I don't know if I'll live long enough to see a repeat.
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« Reply #138 on: October 23, 2013, 11:03:59 PM »

New sig?
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« Reply #139 on: October 23, 2013, 11:04:40 PM »

New sig?

Could be...
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« Reply #140 on: October 23, 2013, 11:11:15 PM »

I am sorry if I have come across as such. But you should know that people who are transperant in their relationships (such as useless superficial gossip like how good the sex was, kinda what ZealousZeal talked about) is sort of common amongst we Americans.

I certainly hope that everyone reading my posts was clear that I was talking about the quality of marital sex (and how I feel porn could damage it) in a very general sense. I was not gossiping about my own sex life, and I don't think that's what you meant by that but just in case I want to clarify. I have no problem talking about sex, but I do make it a point not to talk about my own sex life online or IRL.


I don't even get that.  Cool
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« Reply #141 on: October 23, 2013, 11:43:05 PM »

Does anyone find it ironic that some are posting things of a pornographic nature for others to check out on google? Like Batman xxx? What's the point in even bringing this up, EXCEPT to alert others to its existence so they can then view the porn in question?

Perhaps as a response to those who contended that romance novels were somehow less pornographic because they "have plots"? Perhaps the reason a name is given is to provide a citation rather than a contention? Perhaps the person who posted even went out of his way to comment on the fact that there was a version that had all the sex edited out so that anyone googling could avoid pornography?
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« Reply #142 on: October 24, 2013, 12:01:51 AM »


It's this part in particular
Quote
I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.


Hey, just because you can't look at a woman without wanting to beat off or bang her, don't assume everyone is that way.  Some of us, older men in particular, don't burn with lust at everything we see.  We have had our days for that.  I have really started to enjoy my age where I can talk with a woman and admire both her beauty and intellect without wanting to breed with her.  It has brought an entirely new dimention to my life.  The point of my post was that most of the "Christians" that I read that are discussing porn are either really smart about it because the are watching it and spanking little Richard like he owes them money, or else they are pretty much discussing something they know nothing about.  The exceptions that I have found are rare.  And to pull reasons out of thin air for other people's addictions are seldom useful in solving their problems.  I don't know what Orthonorm was getting at when he commented on my post because he has a habit of thinking on a plane somewhat higher then where my thoughts usually go, but he was quite correct when he said that I was not presenting an argument.  I was mearly stating that while porn is one of man's failings (and therefor wrong), it is more complex than the ability of the usual Internet know-it-alls and most-holies to fully understand.  But trying to understand is not wrong.  Understanding does not infer agreement.  It often leads to disgust.  It also sometimes leads to being able to help others out their mess.
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« Reply #143 on: October 24, 2013, 12:09:59 AM »


It's this part in particular
Quote
I am not sure that I see a problem with the former.


Hey, just because you can't look at a woman without wanting to beat off or bang her, don't assume everyone is that way.  Some of us, older men in particular, don't burn with lust at everything we see.  We have had our days for that.  I have really started to enjoy my age where I can talk with a woman and admire both her beauty and intellect without wanting to breed with her.  It has brought an entirely new dimention to my life.  The point of my post was that most of the "Christians" that I read that are discussing porn are either really smart about it because the are watching it and spanking little Richard like he owes them money, or else they are pretty much discussing something they know nothing about.  The exceptions that I have found are rare.  And to pull reasons out of thin air for other people's addictions are seldom useful in solving their problems.  I don't know what Orthonorm was getting at when he commented on my post because he has a habit of thinking on a plane somewhat higher then where my thoughts usually go, but he was quite correct when he said that I was not presenting an argument.  I was mearly stating that while porn is one of man's failings (and therefor wrong), it is more complex than the ability of the usual Internet know-it-alls and most-holies to fully understand.  But trying to understand is not wrong.  Understanding does not infer agreement.  It often leads to disgust.  It also sometimes leads to being able to help others out their mess.
My ability to converse with a woman without lusting after her is typically dependent on two factors. 

1. How hot she is.
2. The amount of clothes she is wearing.
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« Reply #144 on: October 24, 2013, 12:17:07 AM »

The point of my post was that most of the "Christians" that I read that are discussing porn are either really smart about it because the are watching it and spanking little Richard like he owes them money, or else they are pretty much discussing something they know nothing about.  The exceptions that I have found are rare. 

You brought a smile to my face. 
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« Reply #145 on: October 24, 2013, 06:56:25 AM »

I think Mor is right on this one.

I just wanted to enjoy that for a moment.  I don't know if I'll live long enough to see a repeat.

"I think Mor is right on this one" is different from "Mor is right."
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« Reply #146 on: October 24, 2013, 10:20:01 AM »

"I think Mor is right on this one" is different from "Mor is right."

For a normal human being, yes, but this is William we're talking about.  Having not expected that, how much more can I expect from him?  Smiley
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« Reply #147 on: October 29, 2013, 08:14:00 AM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife. We are also forbidden from oral sex. But perhaps that is not necessary.
Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn? I am doing it much more infrequently but I still fall and do not have any priest to be accountable to. Maybe it is a desire to be aware of peoples sins and change them. Maybe that is the same reason I like to be on orthodox or non orthodox forums.

Those who are truly being saved have grace and the power of grace is to rule our desire for sin but even St Paul struggled with sin but we do not know the specifics

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« Reply #148 on: October 29, 2013, 08:53:22 AM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.
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« Reply #149 on: October 29, 2013, 12:04:02 PM »

Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn?

Because it's the most readily available quick fix to make one forget about one's problems, fears and the outside world. It has "anxiolytic properties". Your brain quickly gets hooked on such behaviours because of the tasty chemicals they help release.   
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« Reply #150 on: October 29, 2013, 01:49:23 PM »

Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn?

Because it's the most readily available quick fix to make one forget about one's problems, fears and the outside world. It has "anxiolytic properties". Your brain quickly gets hooked on such behaviours because of the tasty chemicals they help release.   

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #151 on: October 29, 2013, 02:03:59 PM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.
I suppose it would all depend on how fun your wife is...
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« Reply #152 on: October 29, 2013, 02:23:10 PM »

Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn?

Because it's the most readily available quick fix to make one forget about one's problems, fears and the outside world. It has "anxiolytic properties". Your brain quickly gets hooked on such behaviours because of the tasty chemicals they help release.   

QFT!
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« Reply #153 on: October 29, 2013, 02:28:18 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 
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« Reply #154 on: October 29, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

LOL!

Romaios The Dreamslayer. Grin
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« Reply #155 on: October 29, 2013, 02:32:33 PM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.

It kinda depends on the activities. Shopping and visiting the in-laws can't be fun.
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« Reply #156 on: October 29, 2013, 02:35:33 PM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.

It kinda depends on the activities. Shopping and visiting the in-laws can't be fun.

So wise for one so young. Wink
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« Reply #157 on: October 29, 2013, 03:22:48 PM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.

It kinda depends on the activities. Shopping and visiting the in-laws can't be fun.

So wise for one so young. Wink

I like the future in-laws and neither of us have enough money to shop so the raunchy activities the GF and I engage in mostly consist of her watching poor quality shows on TV and me trying to find something that keeps me away from them.  Just last night she was watching The Voice which is less odious than some of the things she watches and my bro and I were being total gangstas watching Jacques and Julia in the other room...and then our TV broke.  We were going to drink a bunch of vodka and then shoot each other at the same time to get out of hearing the drivel spewing from the back living room but we decided to listen to David Bowie on the youtubes instead until I fell asleep.

The wild and crazy lives of those in a long term relationship...
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« Reply #158 on: October 29, 2013, 03:35:58 PM »

I am worried porn is more fun than activities with my future wife.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, no it is not.

It kinda depends on the activities. Shopping and visiting the in-laws can't be fun.

So wise for one so young. Wink

I like the future in-laws and neither of us have enough money to shop so the raunchy activities the GF and I engage in mostly consist of her watching poor quality shows on TV and me trying to find something that keeps me away from them.  Just last night she was watching The Voice which is less odious than some of the things she watches and my bro and I were being total gangstas watching Jacques and Julia in the other room...and then our TV broke.  We were going to drink a bunch of vodka and then shoot each other at the same time to get out of hearing the drivel spewing from the back living room but we decided to listen to David Bowie on the youtubes instead until I fell asleep.

The wild and crazy lives of those in a long term relationship...

Poverty can indeed cure shopping.  Be grateful for what you don't have. Grin

Once "future in-laws" become actual in-laws, the whole dynamic can drastically change.  Doesn't always, but....BE.  PREPARED! Grin Grin
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« Reply #159 on: October 29, 2013, 03:40:17 PM »

Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn?

Because it's the most readily available quick fix to make one forget about one's problems, fears and the outside world. It has "anxiolytic properties". Your brain quickly gets hooked on such behaviours because of the tasty chemicals they help release.   

If they would let us have opium, we would not need porn.
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« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2013, 03:42:31 PM »

Poverty can cure a lot huh J Michael? No Xboxes, no TVs, no iPads, etc
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« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2013, 04:26:20 PM »

Poverty can cure a lot huh J Michael? No Xboxes, no TVs, no iPads, etc

From a Phanariote Greek play from 1820:

Quote from: New Comedy of Wallachia or the Physicians' Hymn to Zeus, Act II, Scene 3
Τι κακόν ταμπιέτι έχουν εδώ οι μεγάλοι άνθρωποι, οπού τα μικρά πάθη τα εκλαμβάνουν επικίνδυνα, παρόμοια πάθη έχουν κυρία μου κι οι πτωχοί, καί τ΄απερνούν όχι μόνον χωρίς ιατρόν, αλλά και δουλεούοντες.

Dr. Haristaris What a nasty habit great people have around here, that they consider small ailments dangerous; why, milady, the poor have similar ailments and they are cured of them not only without seeing a physician, but even while labouring.
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« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2013, 04:56:56 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.
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« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2013, 05:03:03 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.

Next you are going to tell me that a heart is more than a muscle that pumps blood...
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« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2013, 05:08:55 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.

Pleasure and pain can be safely equated with chemical processes. That's not saying that certain aesthetic preferences (redhead over blonde, for instance) can be explained the same way - but who knows what surprises DNA still has in store for us?  
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« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2013, 05:13:49 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.

Next you are going to tell me that a heart is more than a muscle that pumps blood...

Oh, I'm sure your heart means plenty to you.
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« Reply #166 on: October 29, 2013, 05:39:43 PM »

Has anyone been able to figure out why people want to look at porn? what makes me want to look at porn?

Because it's the most readily available quick fix to make one forget about one's problems, fears and the outside world. It has "anxiolytic properties". Your brain quickly gets hooked on such behaviours because of the tasty chemicals they help release.   

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Telling you, we are like twins. I am the one that is slowly being digested by you.
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« Reply #167 on: October 29, 2013, 05:42:29 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.

Pleasure and pain can be safely equated with chemical processes. That's not saying that certain aesthetic preferences (redhead over blonde, for instance) can be explained the same way - but who knows what surprises DNA still has in store for us?  

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.
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« Reply #168 on: October 29, 2013, 05:44:59 PM »

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo Romaios NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I kill a dream? 

You equated human feelings with chemical processes.

Pleasure and pain can be safely equated with chemical processes. That's not saying that certain aesthetic preferences (redhead over blonde, for instance) can be explained the same way - but who knows what surprises DNA still has in store for us?  

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.

I won't ask you to expand on this. Your welcome.
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« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2013, 06:05:48 PM »

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.

Sublata causa tollitur effectus. That's the way pleasure and pain usually work.
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« Reply #170 on: October 29, 2013, 06:15:20 PM »

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.

Sublata causa tollitur effectus. That's the way pleasure and pain usually work.

You sure about that? And if even if that is the case (you end up making neat tautologies), a condition which might be necessary isn't necessarily the origin nor being of something.
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« Reply #171 on: October 29, 2013, 06:34:54 PM »

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.

Sublata causa tollitur effectus. That's the way pleasure and pain usually work.

How is the "feeling" of pleasure a mere chemical reaction? 
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« Reply #172 on: October 29, 2013, 06:42:46 PM »

You're equating a conscious phenomenon with a material process. Even the most brazen materialist has to admit some kind of distinction between the two.

Sublata causa tollitur effectus. That's the way pleasure and pain usually work.

That looks like it means: "The underlying cause is the totality of the effect."

Sorry, I don't ask the solutions in my Erlenmeyer flasks if it hurts before I cook them.

Not that I'm trying to advance any particular theory of mind and body. I really have no idea where to go on such stuff.

My father taught me to believe in disembodied souls. On the other hand, the modern scientist in me is strongly prejudiced toward believing that all mental acts are strictly determined by physical processes in the nervous system. Then there's the ideas that come to me when I wake up in the morning and am still delirious. Where to go?
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« Reply #173 on: October 29, 2013, 06:48:33 PM »

How is the "feeling" of pleasure a mere chemical reaction? 

I was referring to the sort of pleasurable sensation (=feeling) which creates an addiction - you feel pleasure or pain when a material stimulus arouses those sensations via chemical reactions in your neuronal synapses. You stop feeling it when such stimulation ceases - which is why addicts get hooked on whatever that stimulus happens to be.

It may seem a reductionist approach. I wasn't saying that's all there is to pleasure, though - but I don't think we need to complicate matters or wax philosophical about things at this point. The question was one about pornography. This might be more relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron 
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« Reply #174 on: October 29, 2013, 06:55:36 PM »

Very good, thanks!
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« Reply #175 on: October 29, 2013, 07:30:13 PM »

Sorry, I don't ask the solutions in my Erlenmeyer flasks if it hurts before I cook them.

This reminds me of my schizophrenic buddy's reaction when I tried to explain to him how dopamine works and how his medication interferes with it: "How can you say dopamine does this or that?! You and these doctors are a bunch of arrogant idiots who know nothing about people!"
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« Reply #176 on: October 29, 2013, 09:30:45 PM »

Sorry, I don't ask the solutions in my Erlenmeyer flasks if it hurts before I cook them.

This reminds me of my schizophrenic buddy's reaction when I tried to explain to him how dopamine works and how his medication interferes with it: "How can you say dopamine does this or that?! You and these doctors are a bunch of arrogant idiots who know nothing about people!"

Spend a few months around a nursing home, psychiatric ward or some hospitals, and you'll see how horrifyingly right he can sometimes be.
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« Reply #177 on: October 29, 2013, 09:50:20 PM »

Sorry, I don't ask the solutions in my Erlenmeyer flasks if it hurts before I cook them.

This reminds me of my schizophrenic buddy's reaction when I tried to explain to him how dopamine works and how his medication interferes with it: "How can you say dopamine does this or that?! You and these doctors are a bunch of arrogant idiots who know nothing about people!"

Spend a few months around a nursing home, psychiatric ward or some hospitals, and you'll see how horrifyingly right he can sometimes be.

I couldn't agree more!
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« Reply #178 on: October 30, 2013, 08:20:23 AM »

They don't need to know about people.  They need to know about medical problems, and for the most part, they are pretty good at that.

I don't go to the doctor for him to tell me what a great person I am and swap fishing stories.  I go so he can fix what ails me.
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« Reply #179 on: October 30, 2013, 10:03:32 AM »

What if the fish you ate ails you?  The doctor may have to swap some stories with you.
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« Reply #180 on: October 30, 2013, 12:20:16 PM »

They don't need to know about people.  They need to know about medical problems, and for the most part, they are pretty good at that.

I don't go to the doctor for him to tell me what a great person I am and swap fishing stories.  I go so he can fix what ails me.

It's been my experience that medical problems in humans do not have a separate existence from an individual's personhood or peopleness or humanity, however you choose to call it.

No, you don't go to the doctor for him to tell you what a great person you are, unless he's a psychiatrist/psychotherapist and doing so is part of his treatment plan for you. Cool Cool  I've heard tell that swapping fishing stories, in the correct context, can be extremely therapeutic. Grin
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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