OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 28, 2014, 04:29:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Dismissing Catechumens in Liturgy  (Read 2485 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,932



« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2013, 02:05:29 PM »

That somehow a member of the Church is not involved in the liturgy if they are not in a specific place and doing specific things. Carl's post would suggest that a person doing catechetical work is somehow absent from the liturgy.

Maybe for pastoral reasons the same person shouldn't be teaching every Sunday until eternity, but it doesn't mean someone preparing persons to be received into the Church are absent from the liturgy. Even death or sickness doesn't bar a person from that work.

I think you're right to affirm that people doing catechetical work are, in a sense, participating in the Liturgy even if they are not in the nave for the service.  People who are absent for reasons worthy of a blessing are still present in a sense, while it is by no means guaranteed that those who are in the nave from beginning to end are "present". 

But I think we'd all agree that this is hardly a suitable long-term strategy without providing for the pastoral needs of those who will be serving in this way.  I don't know if a class will benefit from having rotating teachers, for example, so the same person may need to do this for a considerable amount of time.  Do they commune less and "offer it up", or do they get to walk back in when communion has begun or after the Liturgy is finished?  Does the parish have weekday Liturgies that these people may attend? 

Speaking for myself, I think volunteering my time for a class like this during the Liturgy would be a big sacrifice: I'd be fine doing it afterwards or even getting there early and doing it before Liturgy, but to miss half the Liturgy?  I don't know if I'm man enough for that.  So I ask myself these pastoral questions whenever I attend a parish where Sunday School and/or other activities require people to miss a significant portion of the Liturgy...I admire the volunteers for being able to do what I have a hard time accepting, and I pray for them. 

Then again, I do know a few who took such "jobs" precisely because it kept them out of the Liturgy without loss of brownie points.  Smiley

Great pastoral answer. My answer is somewhat more blunt. While our Divine Liturgy is a Holy Mystery, there is nothing mysterious or unexplainable with the idea that it is liturgy--that is, common work. It is not "common" work, at least to simple-minded yours truly, if some folks are assigned to do different things, like teach or participate in classes for catechumens or Sunday School students. You end up with some folks, but not all, doing the common work of all.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,812


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2013, 02:12:46 PM »

Actually having people leave - that's the reintroduction of something that generally faded away over time inhistory, hence an "innovation." I suspect it is not a diocesan wide sanctioned act.

Orthodoxy is conservative and preserves much of its history, but it's not static. Everything old is NOT new again necessarily.

Agreed. While it is be a good thing to stick to the rubrics, it must be done with an understanding of the principle involved. The prayers for the catechumens actually serve several purposes: they are obviously needed if there are catechumens; they are an occasion for the members to reflect on their conversion (just as it is good to attend baptisms, Chrismations, and marriages to "relive" owns own); and also as a reminder to get busy and get some if there are no catechumens. Dismissing the catechumens serves no purpose IMHO and may even be not in the spirit of the Divine Liturgy as the work of the laos as the members who hold the presumed classes are denied the opportunity to participate in the Liturgy of the faithful.

I disagree.  If we take that litany for non-existant catechumens, why not take that for those about to be baptised, or those to be ordained, or the deceased?  All have didactic value.  I think a better option would be to include a petition for them in the Insistent Litany after the Gospel.

I am coming from the perspective that baptisms, ordinations and funerals (as well as marriages) are not being private services but services for the entire congregation.

A local Byzantine Catholic priest shares this view. A graduate of the Russicum in Rome at the Orientale, his external practices are quite similar to the local OCA parish.  Can't say the parishioners, used to
'eastern-lite' share his pov. But they are starting to get onboard.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 02:13:26 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
MarkosC
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Patriarchate of Antioch
Jurisdiction: Greek/Melkite Catholic
Posts: 191


« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2013, 11:48:12 PM »

Actually having people leave - that's the reintroduction of something that generally faded away over time inhistory, hence an "innovation." I suspect it is not a diocesan wide sanctioned act.

Orthodoxy is conservative and preserves much of its history, but it's not static. Everything old is NOT new again necessarily.

Agreed. While it is be a good thing to stick to the rubrics, it must be done with an understanding of the principle involved. The prayers for the catechumens actually serve several purposes: they are obviously needed if there are catechumens; they are an occasion for the members to reflect on their conversion (just as it is good to attend baptisms, Chrismations, and marriages to "relive" owns own); and also as a reminder to get busy and get some if there are no catechumens. Dismissing the catechumens serves no purpose IMHO and may even be not in the spirit of the Divine Liturgy as the work of the laos as the members who hold the presumed classes are denied the opportunity to participate in the Liturgy of the faithful.

I disagree.  If we take that litany for non-existant catechumens, why not take that for those about to be baptised, or those to be ordained, or the deceased?  All have didactic value.  I think a better option would be to include a petition for them in the Insistent Litany after the Gospel.

I am coming from the perspective that baptisms, ordinations and funerals (as well as marriages) are not being private services but services for the entire congregation.

A local Byzantine Catholic priest shares this view. A graduate of the Russicum in Rome at the Orientale, his external practices are quite similar to the local OCA parish.  Can't say the parishioners, used to
'eastern-lite' share his pov. But they are starting to get onboard.

This is done at least in my parish.  Anyone is welcome to a liturgy of any sort (wedding, funeral), though obviously not everyone can go to the wedding reception!!

Baptisms replace Orthros in the morning.  We still have the usual attendance problem, but that's a separate issue......
Logged

O Lord although I desired to blot out
with my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please Thee
through sincere repentance
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
against my sould with his cunning

O Lord before I utterly perish do Thou save me!
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,803



« Reply #93 on: November 01, 2013, 05:50:48 AM »

Actually having people leave - that's the reintroduction of something that generally faded away over time inhistory, hence an "innovation." I suspect it is not a diocesan wide sanctioned act.

Orthodoxy is conservative and preserves much of its history, but it's not static. Everything old is NOT new again necessarily.

If an innovation is innovated was the original innovation still an innovation?

If an innovation is left alone, is it no longer an innovation? How many years does it take for an innovation to no longer be an innovation? You have to answer this that question if you want to keep that argument. What decides the time frame for something to no longer be an innovation?

Arguing that anything that is different is an innovation does not make much sense if it is about an innovation in the first place. Are monasteries innovating when they dismiss catechumen? you have just argued that dismissing catechumen is an innovation

When something is lost, that does not mean you cannot got back because of fear of imaginary innovation? When the renovationist bishops in Russia were around, people did not stick with the wonderful innovations after they were gone because of saying it is "innovation" to go back after this "no longer an innovation innovation" crept in.

I do not believe that stopping innovation is innovation

« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 05:51:37 AM by Gunnarr » Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,812


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2013, 08:06:41 AM »

Actually having people leave - that's the reintroduction of something that generally faded away over time inhistory, hence an "innovation." I suspect it is not a diocesan wide sanctioned act.

Orthodoxy is conservative and preserves much of its history, but it's not static. Everything old is NOT new again necessarily.

If an innovation is innovated was the original innovation still an innovation?

If an innovation is left alone, is it no longer an innovation? How many years does it take for an innovation to no longer be an innovation? You have to answer this that question if you want to keep that argument. What decides the time frame for something to no longer be an innovation?

Arguing that anything that is different is an innovation does not make much sense if it is about an innovation in the first place. Are monasteries innovating when they dismiss catechumen? you have just argued that dismissing catechumen is an innovation

When something is lost, that does not mean you cannot got back because of fear of imaginary innovation? When the renovationist bishops in Russia were around, people did not stick with the wonderful innovations after they were gone because of saying it is "innovation" to go back after this "no longer an innovation innovation" crept in.

I do not believe that stopping innovation is innovation



It begs the question though, as to when is an innovation no longer an innovation, but rather is accepted as a venerable tradition or an accepted practice?

Church history, when looked at honestly, is full of such instances.
Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2013, 01:41:44 AM »

I had attended a few services at the OCA parish near me, and there was a portion of the Liturgy where they dismissed catechumens.  "All catechumens, depart. Let no catechumen remain."  

Well, that parish was not holding Liturgy today because they were ordaining a priest in Rochester, so I went back to the Greek church that I love, but don't understand, and I had forgotten about this--they don't say that in their Liturgy.  Is it a difference in Liturgical processes between the jurisdictions?  Do they not do that if the parish doesn't have any catechumens at the time?  That would be less likely--this is a much larger parish.  

One misconception I had going in was, I assumed all Orthodox churches observed the same Liturgy, but that could be my RC "Where's my missal?" syndrome, because there are small differences between the services at the Greek church and the OCA, but I was curious about this one difference.  I think it's mostly because I don't understand why catechumens would be dismissed for part of a Liturgy, whereas I'm a bumpkin off the street and can stay for the whole thing, but when the Greek church didn't do that at all, that had me wondering.

So I have two questions:  1) Why would one Orthodox church dismiss catechumens and another one not dismiss, and 2) Why dismiss them at all?  

  
We all do use the same Liturgy, but some traditions leave out the Ektenia and Litany of the Catechumens between the Gospel and the Great Entrance. The Priest may not use the Litany and Dismissal of the Catechumens, but it is in the service book, or at least it is in the Liturgikon used by Antiocians. We usually skip it, except during the Presanctified Divine Liturgy during Great Lent.

Fr.  John W. Morris
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 01:43:39 AM by frjohnmorris » Logged
Tags: catechumens 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.057 seconds with 32 queries.