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Author Topic: Yedinovertsy?  (Read 688 times) Average Rating: 0
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KostaC
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« on: October 20, 2013, 12:04:16 AM »

So recently for my class on the history of the modernisations of Russia, Turkey, and Iran, I've had to do research into pre Petrine Russia, including going as far back as the death of Ivan the Terrible/Awesome's son. So, after being given a brief history of His Beatitude Nikon's reforms, I looked into a group I knew little about, the Old Believers. Well, one video about Old Believer communities in Alaska led to one about a Russian community in Brazil, and a few people who commented on the latter video noticed that the community in Montividiu, Minas Gerais was not Old Believer, because of the way they made the sign of the cross and that they did not have the Old Believer komboskini. So, I found myself reading on the mysterious group the Edinoverie. Now, the only thing I have access to has been the Internet to learn more about these people called our coreligionists, and I'll admit I've clung to Wikipedia despite it having little information on the group. Does anyone know anything about this group and how exactly they balance pre-Nikonian reforms with what the Church would require of them in the liturgy? Is there actually any video footage of their liturgy available on the Internet? Does this group only exist within Russia, or was the anonymous person on Youtube correct and the Old Ritualists have a community in Brazil?
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 12:41:08 AM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the Americas.

Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 12:42:49 AM by Hawkeye » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 05:07:44 AM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the Americas.

I'd agree with Hawkeye on that point. The Popovotsy Old Ritualists in Brazil (and elsewhere in South America, as is also the case in Australia) are, in large measure, descended from those who fled or were expelled from Harbin in China. I don't recollect ever seeing mention of their numbers including Edinovertsy, although the refugees from China certainly included Russian Orthodox of the MP, so its not impossible that some of those were Edinovertsy. The majority of the Old Ritualist communities in the Pacific Northwest - both priested and priestless- arrived from South America, particularly Brazil, and there are no Edinovertsy communities among them.  

Quote
Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.

Not sure what Hawkeye's suggesting here, But Bishop John is speaking of Bezpopovotsy (priestless), not Edinovertsy - who, if there was a community there, would already be under his omophorion as they are part and parcel of the MP. The Chapelists, of whom Bishop John speaks specifically, are a priestless concord which - if one were to use Western descriptive terminology - would be considered (oxymoronic as it may sound) 'high church' priestless; they are not Edinovertsy.

Chasovennoe Dvizhenie (Chapel Movement or Chapelists) worship in buildings dedicated to that purpose and liturgically furnished in a traditional manner, except that most lack an altar, a reminder of the lack of a priesthood. Their use of chapels is in contrast with the more common practice among Bezpopovtsy of adapting to house worship. The Chasovennoe reject the use of choirs and do not process, although the latter would typically be associated with a body, such as theirs, that has a heightened liturgical focus. Historically, they opposed antiphonal singing, an uncommon stance among Bezpopovtsy, since the Nikonians had adopted a similar position, given that it was the then-current praxis of the Greek Church.  

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 05:24:39 AM »

Quote
Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.

Not sure what Hawkeye's suggesting here, But Bishop John is speaking of Bezpopovotsy (priestless), not Edinovertsy - who, if there was a community there, would already be under his omophorion as they are part and parcel of the MP. The Chapelists, of whom Bishop John speaks specifically, are a priestless concord which - if one were to use Western descriptive terminology - would be considered (oxymoronic as it may sound) 'high church' priestless; they are not Edinovertsy.

Chasovennoe Dvizhenie (Chapel Movement or Chapelists) worship in buildings dedicated to that purpose and liturgically furnished in a traditional manner, except that most lack an altar, a reminder of the lack of a priesthood. Their use of chapels is in contrast with the more common practice among Bezpopovtsy of adapting to house worship. The Chasovennoe reject the use of choirs and do not process, although the latter would typically be associated with a body, such as theirs, that has a heightened liturgical focus. Historically, they opposed antiphonal singing, an uncommon stance among Bezpopovtsy, since the Nikonians had adopted a similar position, given that it was the then-current praxis of the Greek Church. 

Many years,

Neil

I believe you may have misunderstood what I said. I myself was raised, and yet remain, a Chapelist and am in communion, for lack of a better phrase, with many of the Bezpopovtsy in South America.

I simply meant that the closest thing related to the Yedinoverie in South America is Bishop John's desire to bring my own coreligionists under his omophorion, not that there were any Yedinovertsy already among them.
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 05:30:27 AM »

Quote
Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.

Not sure what Hawkeye's suggesting here, But Bishop John is speaking of Bezpopovotsy (priestless), not Edinovertsy - who, if there was a community there, would already be under his omophorion as they are part and parcel of the MP. The Chapelists, of whom Bishop John speaks specifically, are a priestless concord which - if one were to use Western descriptive terminology - would be considered (oxymoronic as it may sound) 'high church' priestless; they are not Edinovertsy.

Chasovennoe Dvizhenie (Chapel Movement or Chapelists) worship in buildings dedicated to that purpose and liturgically furnished in a traditional manner, except that most lack an altar, a reminder of the lack of a priesthood. Their use of chapels is in contrast with the more common practice among Bezpopovtsy of adapting to house worship. The Chasovennoe reject the use of choirs and do not process, although the latter would typically be associated with a body, such as theirs, that has a heightened liturgical focus. Historically, they opposed antiphonal singing, an uncommon stance among Bezpopovtsy, since the Nikonians had adopted a similar position, given that it was the then-current praxis of the Greek Church. 

Many years,

Neil

I believe you may have misunderstood what I said. I myself was raised, and yet remain, a Chapelist and am in communion, for lack of a better phrase, with many of the Bezpopovtsy in South America.

I simply meant that the closest thing related to the Yedinoverie in South America is Bishop John's desire to bring my own coreligionists under his omophorion, not that there were any Yedinovertsy already among them.

Ah, you're correct - I did misunderstand. My apologies!

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the cas. Ameri

Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 04:28:40 PM »

no altar?
so are they basically protestants?

sorry, didn't get to read russian history yet...
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 04:48:06 PM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the Americas.

Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.

I suppose that the odds of Old Ritualists immigrating to the Americas is slim since they'd undoubtedly be a tiny minority within a tiny immigrant minority. I feel a bit thick because I can literally just show you the video. Now, it's in Brazilian Portuguese, but that shouldn't be a problem if you speak Russian because snippets of the news special are in Russian. Then can we maybe determine the identity of this small community. By the way, the news crew that composed the documentary frequently makes references to the Moscow Patriarchate, which I initially thought was out of ignorance on the part of the crew, but then I thought the group was in-communion Old Ritualists, and now I'm completely unsure. This is shaping up to be quite the detective investigation  Grin! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiPnQY9CFYA

So now I have three questions:
1. Can the identity of the Russian Colony of Montividiu be determined?
2. How many different types of Old Believer groups are there?
3. Where can I find more about the in-communion Yedinovertsy?
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 09:40:58 PM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the Americas.

Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.
God grant it!

God grant it, indeed!

I suppose that the odds of Old Ritualists immigrating to the Americas is slim since they'd undoubtedly be a tiny minority within a tiny immigrant minority. I feel a bit thick because I can literally just show you the video. Now, it's in Brazilian Portuguese, but that shouldn't be a problem if you speak Russian because snippets of the news special are in Russian. Then can we maybe determine the identity of this small community. By the way, the news crew that composed the documentary frequently makes references to the Moscow Patriarchate, which I initially thought was out of ignorance on the part of the crew, but then I thought the group was in-communion Old Ritualists, and now I'm completely unsure. This is shaping up to be quite the detective investigation  Grin! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiPnQY9CFYA

So now I have three questions:
1. Can the identity of the Russian Colony of Montividiu be determined?
2. How many different types of Old Believer groups are there?
3. Where can I find more about the in-communion Yedinovertsy?

The Russian was largely meaningless fluff and didn't provide any good information at all. We'd need a speaker of Brazilian Portuguese to get anything useful.

1. I'm almost completely certain that they are Chapelists. They make the sign of the cross in the usual manner, if a little flamboyantly, and while the lestovka was absent in the video, that doesn't necessarily work against my conclusion. Likewise, their clothing was fairly consistent with what a Chapelist might wear, a specific example being the headdress worn by the married women.

While clearly some sort of references are made to the Russian Orthodox Church, there doesn't seem to be any indication that they are in anyway connected today.

2. Irish Hermit has a great resource here which I go through every few months. It's the best answer to your question that I've ever come upon.

3. My knowledge about Yedinovertsy specifically is almost nil so I'm not much help there.
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 10:23:48 PM »

Many of the priestless Old Believers in both North and South America (Alaska and Brazil included) are actually my own coreligionists, yet beyond the (unrelated) parish in Erie, Pennsylvania, I am unfamiliar with any yedinovertsy in the Americas.

Bishop John of Caracas and South America has shown interest in bringing in some of them under his omophorion (as he notes here), but I haven't heard of any such success nor should you count on it either.
God grant it!

God grant it, indeed!

I suppose that the odds of Old Ritualists immigrating to the Americas is slim since they'd undoubtedly be a tiny minority within a tiny immigrant minority. I feel a bit thick because I can literally just show you the video. Now, it's in Brazilian Portuguese, but that shouldn't be a problem if you speak Russian because snippets of the news special are in Russian. Then can we maybe determine the identity of this small community. By the way, the news crew that composed the documentary frequently makes references to the Moscow Patriarchate, which I initially thought was out of ignorance on the part of the crew, but then I thought the group was in-communion Old Ritualists, and now I'm completely unsure. This is shaping up to be quite the detective investigation  Grin! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiPnQY9CFYA

So now I have three questions:
1. Can the identity of the Russian Colony of Montividiu be determined?
2. How many different types of Old Believer groups are there?
3. Where can I find more about the in-communion Yedinovertsy?

The Russian was largely meaningless fluff and didn't provide any good information at all. We'd need a speaker of Brazilian Portuguese to get anything useful.

1. I'm almost completely certain that they are Chapelists. They make the sign of the cross in the usual manner, if a little flamboyantly, and while the lestovka was absent in the video, that doesn't necessarily work against my conclusion. Likewise, their clothing was fairly consistent with what a Chapelist might wear, a specific example being the headdress worn by the married women.

While clearly some sort of references are made to the Russian Orthodox Church, there doesn't seem to be any indication that they are in anyway connected today.

2. Irish Hermit has a great resource here which I go through every few months. It's the best answer to your question that I've ever come upon.

3. My knowledge about Yedinovertsy specifically is almost nil so I'm not much help there.

I thumbed through Neil's links. A wealth of information, for sure.

It seems that within modern Orthodoxy (post enlightenment) the proliferation of such a variety of sects is somewhat unique to Russia. Does anyone have any insight as to why?
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 11:21:33 PM »

So now I have three questions:
1. Can the identity of the Russian Colony of Montividiu be determined?
2. How many different types of Old Believer groups are there?
3. Where can I find more about the in-communion Yedinovertsy?

The Russian was largely meaningless fluff and didn't provide any good information at all. We'd need a speaker of Brazilian Portuguese to get anything useful.

1. I'm almost completely certain that they are Chapelists. They make the sign of the cross in the usual manner, if a little flamboyantly, and while the lestovka was absent in the video, that doesn't necessarily work against my conclusion. Likewise, their clothing was fairly consistent with what a Chapelist might wear, a specific example being the headdress worn by the married women.

While clearly some sort of references are made to the Russian Orthodox Church, there doesn't seem to be any indication that they are in anyway connected today.

2. Irish Hermit has a great resource here which I go through every few months. It's the best answer to your question that I've ever come upon.

3. My knowledge about Yedinovertsy specifically is almost nil so I'm not much help there.

With dictionaries not too far out of reach, I can read (after a fashion) some Russian and some Portuguese, but can only understand a bit of the former and none of the latter in speech. What little I got of the Russian was essentially what Hawkeye said.

As to your third question, I'd suggest a Google search using the terms Yedinovertsy, Yedinoverie, Edinovertsy, and Edinoverie. You'll get a 1,000+ hits, but a lot - probably most - will be brief mentions in the course of a discussion about Old Ritualists/Old Believers. There isn't a lot of literature from what I know. The movement wasn't and isn't strong from anything I've ever read. It never attracted the numbers that the MP expected - and then it lost at least one substantial congregation (about 1,000 faithful, IIRC) to the Russian Greek-Catholic Church in the early years after the Bolshevik Revolution. I've no notion what its numbers are at present and if the MP documents them anywhere on its site, I've not spotted it.

I appreciate Hawkeye's kind words about that collection of my posts to which he linked - though he credited them to my dear friend, Father Ambrose/Irish Hermit (that isn't the first time we've been confused for one another, but no one seeing the 7 smiling faces looking down from my mantle is likely to mistake me for a hermit/hieromonk Cheesy ). The listings there - which are by no means complete - show the incredible numbers into which the Bezpopovotsi are divided. One can newly open most any text or monograph on the subject and discover an Accord that one had not heard of previously - and with varying degrees of detail available on what they believed, how they served, etc. Right now, I think I have a half-dozen about whom I know absolutely nothing except the group's common name.

Quote from: podkarpatska
It seems that within modern Orthodoxy (post enlightenment) the proliferation of such a variety of sects is somewhat unique to Russia. Does anyone have any insight as to why?

The following comments continue my remarks from above the quote immediately above and also address, at least to some extent, the question raised by David. Keep in mind that a lot of the divisions weren't a result of theological disagreement. Much of those stemmed from the geographic barriers of the times, the primitive communication capabilities, the self-enforced isolation to hide from official wrath and persecution (and the counterpart isolation enforced as exile by that same officialdom), and the lack of any central, hierarchical-type organization for the vast majority of the sects.

So, two groups with essentially the same theological outlook would not infrequently be catalogued under different names (often the patronymic of its local leader or the toponymic of the place in which it was situated) - because the two never encountered one another. Others would be differently named by two authors writing about them (there was a fascination about the Old Believers/Old Ritualists that generated a lot of text by folks whom we would likely term religious sociologists today, as well as authors who loved nothing more than an outrageous anecdote or description to spice up the 'travelogues' that were so in vogue in the 18th century. Differences in praxis could also be a consequence of the same geographic dispersal - just as happened in the early years of our own Churches, Orthodox and Catholic.

Then too, many - probably most - of those I refer to as Irrational/Eccentric Sects, Radical Sects, and Extremist Sects engaged in excesses of praxis and/or held such bizarre beliefs that 'mainstream' Bezpopovotsi would likely have outright rejected any connection with them, although they might have originally been rooted therein. Certainly, I think that it's a stretch to consider a lot of those to really be Old Believers.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 11:28:39 PM »

^ Could an analogy be made to the myriad of splinter sects off of Mormonism in America like the Warren  Jeffs group in Texas? By that I mean a cult with a dynastic leadership possessing a charismatic hold over a remote community?
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 12:13:09 AM »

^ Could an analogy be made to the myriad of splinter sects off of Mormonism in America like the Warren  Jeffs group in Texas? By that I mean a cult with a dynastic leadership possessing a charismatic hold over a remote community?

Not a doubt in my mind! Somewhere in the linked threads I talk about the fact that we generally have no idea what these sects called themselves (because there is little documentation generated from within them), so you get the ones described by praxis (generally by the most bizarre act of same - e.g., the Gapers), but we see a lot identified by patronymic. A bit surprising, considering that these are 'non-hierarchical' entities.

Consider, if they had clergy and this was happening today, what terminology would we likely apply to such?  'Vagante' certainly comes to my mind. And we both know that every time one vagante bishop ordains another the combined church shortly cleaves, because each wants to be their own ruling metropolitan archeparchial patriarch.

So, I set up my sect, you join and after a while I send you off to the next village to evangelize. In the taurag, that mighr mean a 3 day journey by sled, so you're effectively out of my sight, hearing, and control. You decide you like being your own leader. Next thing one knows, I'm still heading up the Cornelian Accord but your congregation is now titled the Davidian Accord. A researcher comes by, catalogues my Cornelian Accord and then finds the Davidians 30 miles west. Hmm, are they the same? Praxis looks similar. Ahh, your folks bend their knee more superficially than mine - so, suddenly the Cornelians are 'The Genuflectors' and the Davidians are 'The Knee Benders'. Had his eagle eyes not spotted that distinction, they'd be one less sect - the Cornelians and Davidians might have been wrapped into 'The Kneelers'. Subtleties of praxis make wonderful grist for deep theological musings as to what it all really meant.

Did that make sense? Did I answer your question?   

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2013, 12:34:16 AM »

With dictionaries not too far out of reach, I can read (after a fashion) some Russian and some Portuguese, but can only understand a bit of the former and none of the latter in speech. What little I got of the Russian was essentially what Hawkeye said.

To clarify for others, what little Russian there was consisted of conversational snippets such as "Have you ever eaten like this before?" or "I'll read it and you'll say it." If you don't know Russian, you're not missing anything of value.

I appreciate Hawkeye's kind words about that collection of my posts to which he linked - though he credited them to my dear friend, Father Ambrose/Irish Hermit (that isn't the first time we've been confused for one another, but no one seeing the 7 smiling faces looking down from my mantle is likely to mistake me for a hermit/hieromonk Cheesy ).

Now it is I who must apologize to you!  Cheesy

I didn't confuse you with him as much as melded the two of you into one person. I knew that there was a distinction between Irish Hermit and Irish Melkite but it completely slipped my mind. I even wondered aloud earlier how it was that a Serbian hieromonk had ended up a Melkite and went by both Fr. Ambrose and Neil. It made no sense but I didn't think to figure out why.  Grin
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 07:45:18 AM »

^ Don't feel bad, all those Irish look alike.... Wink  (just kidding)
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 01:01:20 AM »

^ Don't feel bad, all those Irish look alike.... Wink  (just kidding)

LOL - David, the first time someone confused Father Ambrose and me here was actually on a thread similar to this one in that it catalogued the EC/OC Churches much as the threads that Hawkeye linked do for the Old Ritualists. In replying to that comment (think it was by Mina), I said something similar to your post, noting that we were pretty much of an age (we're a year apart), had the same gift of gab, and a few other such factors.

Many years,

Neil
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