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Author Topic: Do not reduce the faith to 'moralistic' ideology, Pope warns  (Read 1993 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 18, 2013, 06:45:19 PM »

I was wondering what our posters thing about this homily as reported yesterday:

"If a Christian “becomes a disciple of ideology,” noted Pope Francis during his Oct. 17 daily Mass, “he has lost the faith.”

The Holy Father reiterated Jesus' words to the scholars in the day’s Gospel, taken from Luke, in which he tells them that they have taken the key of knowledge, reflecting that in this scene Jesus speaks to us about the “image of the lock.”

It is, he said, “the image of those Christians who have the key in their hand, but take it away, without opening the door,” and who “keep the door closed.”

Asking those present how a Christian is able to fall into this attitude, the Pope reflected that “The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology. And ideology does not beckon (people).”

Noting that it is a “lack of Christian witness does this,” he stressed that “when this Christian is a priest, a bishop or a Pope it is worse.”

“When a Christian becomes a disciple of ideology,” urged the Pope, “he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought,” and “the knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge.”
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/do-not-reduce-the-faith-to-moralistic-ideology-pope-warns/

Sounds rather rooted in a knowledge of the Fathers, it seems to me. Perhaps he is not the caricature that many here and elsewhere have made him out to be?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:45:29 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »

Sounds rather rooted in a knowledge of the Fathers, it seems to me. Perhaps he is not the caricature that many here and elsewhere have made him out to be?

Pope Francis also is in touch with the Fathers on his views on the poor.
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2013, 07:03:04 PM »

I think we could safely lavish Pope Francis with some well-deserved "second sophistry" style encomia for what he says here.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 09:16:44 PM »

I'm not sure what the pope is saying on this one. Huh
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 09:06:37 PM »

It also can be argued that he is warning against those who believe in the systems men have devised for our faiths, which would include the fathers of the church, and one can say that they are all subject to being fallible just like the Pope.
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 11:55:12 PM »

As a Catholic I must admit that I have no idea what this Pope is saying almost every time he opens his mouth.  I seriously doubt that he is in the same league as the ancient Church fathers in his "off the cuff" remarks.   He has condemned traditionalists as Pharisees in the past and I fear this is more of the same.  He seems to be from the hippy dippy school of theology.  He SERIOUSLY doesn't like rules, stodgy traditions, or it seems restrictive "dogma". Yes I get the "Church is for everybody" mantra, but no rules, no dogma, really?  It scares sinners away?  Really?

I get the feeling that we are headed in a distinctly Protestant direction with individual interpretation of scripture and a "liturgy" that fulfills our own personal need for expression.  We should all hold hands, and become "active" in the liturgy, and so forth. I'm afraid I see more guitars, vestal virgin dancers, and loaves of French bread in the future liturgy a-la-Francis.

It seems that he intentionally does not expand on or explain his words, which makes it extremely difficult for little people like myself to understand what he wants to say.  He just throws them out there and they are interpreted mostly by liberals to be everything that they hoped for.  What he "really" believes or hopes for the Church" is a mystery to me.

To be honest I just ignore it all at this point.  It doesn't affect me.  But I do fear that he is NOT what some here seem to think that he is.  I would not interpret him thus far as a deep thinking theologian type, no I think what you see is all there is.  I think that he would be more than happy to sell the Vatican if he could, maybe turn it into a refugee center.  Is that what is best for the Church?  I don't know.

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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 12:13:06 AM »

I'm not sure what the pope is saying on this one. Huh

I feel like this response is applicable to more than just this particular homily.
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 10:35:26 AM »

I'm not sure what the pope is saying on this one. Huh
Something very Orthodox.
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 11:22:55 AM »

I think we could safely lavish Pope Francis with some well-deserved "second sophistry" style encomia for what he says here.

Extempore, of course. Too bad that we don't have a good sophist among us.
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 11:36:54 AM »

As a Catholic I must admit that I have no idea what this Pope is saying almost every time he opens his mouth.  I seriously doubt that he is in the same league as the ancient Church fathers in his "off the cuff" remarks.   He has condemned traditionalists as Pharisees in the past and I fear this is more of the same.  He seems to be from the hippy dippy school of theology.  He SERIOUSLY doesn't like rules, stodgy traditions, or it seems restrictive "dogma". Yes I get the "Church is for everybody" mantra, but no rules, no dogma, really?  It scares sinners away?  Really?

Well, that's how the early 'Catholic' Church did things and it turned out fine... I guess. (40,000 Protestant heresies later)

Quote
I get the feeling that we are headed in a distinctly Protestant direction with individual interpretation of scripture and a "liturgy" that fulfills our own personal need for expression.  We should all hold hands, and become "active" in the liturgy, and so forth. I'm afraid I see more guitars, vestal virgin dancers, and loaves of French bread in the future liturgy a-la-Francis.
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In many ways, I find Catholicism more Protestant than Protestantism, there is no reason to be a Catholic because 'we are all Christians' even though Protestants are schismatic heretics. Protestantism is what says the Creed can be overturned in favor of 'let's all get along' but of course, that's how the Great Schism happened. The Pope messed with the Creed to satisfy the Germanic masses in Gaul, Germany and Spain.

Quote
It seems that he intentionally does not expand on or explain his words, which makes it extremely difficult for little people like myself to understand what he wants to say.  He just throws them out there and they are interpreted mostly by liberals to be everything that they hoped for.  What he "really" believes or hopes for the Church" is a mystery to me.

To be honest I just ignore it all at this point.  It doesn't affect me.  But I do fear that he is NOT what some here seem to think that he is.  I would not interpret him thus far as a deep thinking theologian type, no I think what you see is all there is.  I think that he would be more than happy to sell the Vatican if he could, maybe turn it into a refugee center.  Is that what is best for the Church?  I don't know.

Well, if he just says things and people like them isn't that all that really matters? I mean, it's not like the Church is about Spirituality or Christ or any ludicrous idea like that. Church is just a media department for the Holy Father and his Protestant and Jewish lovebirds, who all sing the song of peace and brotherhood.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 11:54:24 AM »

It seems pretty plain to me what the Pope is saying.

You must "do" true faith, not just "have" it.
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 12:34:07 PM »

It seems pretty plain to me what the Pope is saying.

You must "do" true faith, not just "have" it.

Maybe that's why we don't understand it.  Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 12:53:00 PM »

It seems pretty plain to me what the Pope is saying.

You must "do" true faith, not just "have" it.

I think so too.
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 01:30:13 PM »

He is wrong or not..

If he is speaking of the proselyte atittude of self-righteousness and false ideologies he is not. But if he is saying we should have no ideologies or idealist ethics or morals he is wrong as hell.

 
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 01:32:55 PM »

He is wrong.

Well, that settles it.  Will the moderator please lock this thread?  Everything that needed to be said has just been said.   Undecided
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2013, 01:37:35 PM »

He is wrong.

Well, that settles it.  Will the moderator please lock this thread?  Everything that needed to be said has just been said.   Undecided

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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2013, 01:39:16 PM »

He is wrong.

Well, that settles it.  Will the moderator please lock this thread?  Everything that needed to be said has just been said.   Undecided

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The Pope said it so it must be false.
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2013, 01:41:51 PM »

He is wrong.

Well, that settles it.  Will the moderator please lock this thread?  Everything that needed to be said has just been said.   Undecided

I fixed it.
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2013, 01:47:16 PM »

He is wrong or not..

If he is speaking of the proselyte atittude of self-righteousness and false ideologies he is not. But if he is saying we should have no ideologies or idealist ethics or morals he is wrong as hell.

 

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2013, 01:49:23 PM »

He is wrong or not..

If he is speaking of the proselyte atittude of self-righteousness and false ideologies he is not. But if he is saying we should have no ideologies or idealist ethics or morals he is wrong as hell.

 

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2013, 01:59:30 PM »

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?

That's the faith of the demons:

Quote from: James 2:19-20
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2013, 02:03:45 PM »

He is wrong or not..

If he is speaking of the proselyte atittude of self-righteousness and false ideologies he is not. But if he is saying we should have no ideologies or idealist ethics or morals he is wrong as hell.

 

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?

Having "just ideology" means *only* believing in an abstract concept without doing anything about it.  It's a start, for sure, but unless one progresses past the initial acceptance of an ideology, the person is not transformed but is, rather living a lie.  Remember how St. James tells us that "faith without works is dead" (James 2)?  That's what Pope Francis is pretty much saying just in different words.  Faith with *only* words is an ideology.  Living faith, the faith that Christians are called to have, requires action as well as belief.  Pope Francis is saying that we should not be just speakers of the Word but doers of the Word, as well.

"By their fruits will you know them." (Matthew 7)
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2013, 02:04:52 PM »

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?

That's the faith of the demons:

Quote from: James 2:19-20
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I think the Pope says "reduce faith to moralistic ideology" that "ideology frightens,chases away people and distances them from the Church" . So I am not sure that is what the Pope meant.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2013, 02:13:25 PM »

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?

That's the faith of the demons:

Quote from: James 2:19-20
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I think the Pope says "reduce faith to moralistic ideology" that "ideology frightens,chases away people and distances them from the Church" . So I am not sure that is what the Pope meant.

When all you do is beat people over the head with ideology and not show them that Christian ideology should, no, MUST, have an active component to it, then yes, it does frighten people away because all they see is a liar and a hypocrite.

Think of all the communist propaganda (the ideology) that says that we are all equal and that we all deserve an equal share.  Where did that ideology lead *in practice* especially in Latin America?

I think you are caught up on the word ideology and not looking at the whole of what Pope Francis is saying.  He is not saying that ideology has no place, he is saying that it cannot be *just* ideology.
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 02:20:26 PM »

He is plainly NOT saying that we shouldn't have any ideology.  He says that we shouldn't reduce faith to *just* ideology.  In that, he is entirely correct.  You may not know anyoen who does that, but I know plenty.  I often see one of them when I look in a mirror to brush my teeth.

Reduce faith to just ideology how?

Why would that be wrong?

That's the faith of the demons:

Quote from: James 2:19-20
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I think the Pope says "reduce faith to moralistic ideology" that "ideology frightens,chases away people and distances them from the Church" . So I am not sure that is what the Pope meant.

When all you do is beat people over the head with ideology and not show them that Christian ideology should, no, MUST, have an active component to it, then yes, it does frighten people away because all they see is a liar and a hypocrite.

Think of all the communist propaganda (the ideology) that says that we are all equal and that we all deserve an equal share.  Where did that ideology lead *in practice* especially in Latin America?

I think you are caught up on the word ideology and not looking at the whole of what Pope Francis is saying.  He is not saying that ideology has no place, he is saying that it cannot be *just* ideology.

He sure chose a twisted way to express that.

Nothing new.

This is Like Christianity 2009.

I think there are other actual Christian dealings/problems that are more important and on day than that.

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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »

It seems pretty plain to me what the Pope is saying.

You must "do" true faith, not just "have" it.
+1.

Moral theology =/=moralistic theology

Moralistic theology is the other side of the coin of reducing mission to social work.
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2013, 07:00:28 PM »

"Pope Francis has spoken English publicly for the first in his pontificate, sending a video message Friday to participants of a conference in the Philippines on the new evangelization.
....
"Do not get tired of bringing the mercy of the Father to the poor, the sick, the abandoned, the young people and families," he says. "Let Jesus be known in the world of politics, business, arts, science, technology and social media. Let the Holy Spirit renew creation and bring forth justice and peace in the Philippines and in the great continent of Asia that is close to my heart.""

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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 07:26:48 PM »

Ah, English. The Language of the Angels.

Non Angli, sed angeli...  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 08:00:05 PM »

Y'see, this is why I've grown to like this place. I've learned more about what Pope Francis is saying from reading other people's explanations of what he probably meant than I would've ever learned from just reading the text of this homily by myself and trying to figure it out. I never was very good with Vaticanese, and for all that is written of this Pope's human touch I find his words no less inscrutable. So, uh...thanks, everybody. I guess I can "+1" something the Roman Pope said, sort of.
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 09:55:42 AM »

So, since the Pope is talking about morals, does that make his statement ex cathedra?  laugh

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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 10:10:58 AM »

So, since the Pope is talking about morals, does that make his statement ex cathedra?  laugh

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I think he has to actually "define" a doctrine regarding morals. Now, what that means is another story.
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 10:27:03 AM »

So, since the Pope is talking about morals, does that make his statement ex cathedra?  laugh

PP
I think he has to actually "define" a doctrine regarding morals. Now, what that means is another story.
Bah, I was just trolling anyways Smiley

PP
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 05:54:24 PM »

It seems pretty plain to me what the Pope is saying.

You must "do" true faith, not just "have" it.
I reread his statement and am still uncertain if that is what he is saying or not.  What is even stranger, is that this morning I was running a couple errands and listening to a Catholic station for about 5 minutes while I was driving.  Whatever show I was listening to brought up that statement.  The speaker was even uncertain about what the Pope meant by "ideology."  Of course then he went on to say that those who are looking for a chink in the Church's armour like the media etc. will find things wrong with this speech.  Anyway, I found it interesting that not even a Catholic radio speaker knew what the Pope meant.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 06:13:05 PM »

Anyway, I found it interesting that not even a Catholic radio speaker knew what the Pope meant.

I'm not convinced that this always has to do with the Pope.  The RC's may correct me, but ISTM that modern Roman Catholicism is divided into a number of subdivisions (e.g., traditional, conservative, neo-con, liberal, progressive, etc.) opposing each other, and that the inability to understand this Pope has to do with a certain amount of paranoia.  You can't easily peg him in any one category, and so he's a wild card: when he talks about ideology, whose side is he on?  He's not a hard core traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination, but he also described legalised same sex marriage in his native Argentina as a political machination straight from Satan.  He loves Mary, but seems to have little interest in liturgy.  And so on.  He doesn't seem to have a clearly discernable ideology, so any ideology is potentially on the chopping block. 

From the relative distance of Orthodoxy, and without much engagement in modern RC politics, at least this statement by the Pope seems clear to me. 
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2013, 07:23:27 PM »

Y'see, this is why I've grown to like this place. I've learned more about what Pope Francis is saying from reading other people's explanations of what he probably meant than I would've ever learned from just reading the text of this homily by myself and trying to figure it out. I never was very good with Vaticanese, and for all that is written of this Pope's human touch I find his words no less inscrutable. So, uh...thanks, everybody. I guess I can "+1" something the Roman Pope said, sort of.
I think that many people are confused by what Pope Francis says because what he says is often open to multiple interpretations.
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2013, 09:09:48 PM »

Well, yes. Or no. Maybe. I don't know. It depends.
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »

Anyway, I found it interesting that not even a Catholic radio speaker knew what the Pope meant.

I'm not convinced that this always has to do with the Pope.  The RC's may correct me, but ISTM that modern Roman Catholicism is divided into a number of subdivisions (e.g., traditional, conservative, neo-con, liberal, progressive, etc.) opposing each other, and that the inability to understand this Pope has to do with a certain amount of paranoia.  You can't easily peg him in any one category, and so he's a wild card: when he talks about ideology, whose side is he on?  He's not a hard core traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination, but he also described legalised same sex marriage in his native Argentina as a political machination straight from Satan.  He loves Mary, but seems to have little interest in liturgy.  And so on.  He doesn't seem to have a clearly discernable ideology, so any ideology is potentially on the chopping block. 

From the relative distance of Orthodoxy, and without much engagement in modern RC politics, at least this statement by the Pope seems clear to me. 

Im wondering just what do Catholics expect from their Pope? Each Pope seems to be going in a certain direction and it can be confusing sometimes.
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2013, 10:39:54 PM »

So, since the Pope is talking about morals, does that make his statement ex cathedra?  laugh

PP

I don't think anyone really knows for sure anymore.
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2013, 10:42:26 PM »

Im wondering just what do Catholics expect from their Pope? Each Pope seems to be going in a certain direction and it can be confusing sometimes.

Only they can answer that.  Certainly, despite attempts to try and discern a "program" harmonising the last few Popes (the JPII-BXVI-Francis meme comes to mind), it seems like each is doing his own thing, and the "popular orthodoxy" adapts to the pontificate, rather than the pontificate adapting to the faith of the Church. 
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