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Poll
Question: Rudeness on OC.Net
I think it should be strictly moderated (provide standards in comment below)
I think only the most extreme rudeness should be moderated (provide standards in post below)
I think it should be discouraged, but people should self-moderate (explain why below)
I think it should be allowed completely (explain below)
No opinion / neutral

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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2013, 06:06:09 AM »

I don't think rudeness is such a big problem. We can defend from it and let it pass. Sure, the step beyond rudeness, namely immorality, would be a problem.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:07:35 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2013, 06:11:19 AM »

Since we're not talking face to face, we are missing all the nonverbal cues that make communication effective. Misunderstandings will happen, and no amount of smileys will change that.

I staff on another forum that's big on civility, and there we have a system of warnings and discipline for habitual rulebreakers. They can have their posts removed, receive official warnings to knock it off in PM, and if that doesn't work, there are the various restrictive groups, like the dots here.

I don't think incivility should be allowed to run rampant, but I also believe in growing a thicker skin and starving trolls.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:20:31 AM by Arachne » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2013, 06:14:20 AM »

I don't think rudeness is such a big problem. We can defend from it and let it pass. Sure, the step beyond rudeness, namely immorality, would be a problem.

Insensitive rudeness is immoral. Usually spiritual forums are for sensitive and delicate things, and sensitive and delicate people come in or people speak of their most sensitive and delicate aspects of their being (matters of the heart), so it is easilly to get offended and hurt when you do so. Disrespecting one's spiritual dealings is Immoral and should have no room on a spiritual forum, much more a Christian one.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:15:25 AM by lovetzatziki » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2013, 06:41:07 AM »

I don't think rudeness is such a big problem. We can defend from it and let it pass. Sure, the step beyond rudeness, namely immorality, would be a problem.

Insensitive rudeness is immoral. Usually spiritual forums are for sensitive and delicate things, and sensitive and delicate people come in or people speak of their most sensitive and delicate aspects of their being (matters of the heart), so it is easilly to get offended and hurt when you do so. Disrespecting one's spiritual dealings is Immoral and should have no room on a spiritual forum, much more a Christian one.



That's what I meant. Immorality (in whatever flavor) is bad. Being too delicate can become a problem of its own and the world is rough sometimes so we also need to strengthen ourselves.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:41:26 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2013, 06:56:23 AM »

Seems weird that we're discussing how to moderate rudeness on a Christian forum.  Sign 'o the times, y'all.

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« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 06:59:28 AM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2013, 07:43:36 AM »

I actually think people who look to a bunch of strangers for spiritual advice are the ones who need serious help.

This is an example of rudeness.

In these times where do people go when they want to first learn about anything?  The Intetnet. They Google it.

They heard about Orthodoxy when watching "60 Minutes" and want to know more.

Google leads them here.

As Orthodox Christians, instructed by Christ, to not only love our neighbor, but to actually go out and spread the Word to them, baptizing all nations, it is our DUTY to use all means possible to achieve this. This Forum IS a means of reaching millions of many possible converts.

The stated quoted above, goes against everything not only this Forum, but we, as Orthodox Christians, are all about.

 
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« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2013, 07:47:25 AM »

I'm not talking about learning. I'm talking about sharing delicate personal matters and expecting a bunch of strangers to solve their personal problems for them. The forum is not a place for a confession.
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« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2013, 07:51:03 AM »

Although I won't mention them by name, there are a couple forums I miss, because they didn't have issues like this - the mods didn't permit it. And they were Orthodox.
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« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2013, 07:54:19 AM »

Although I won't mention them by name, there are a couple forums I miss, because they didn't have issues like this - the mods didn't permit it. And they were Orthodox.
"issues like this" is a very vague thing. What didn't the mods permit on those other forums?
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« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2013, 07:57:28 AM »

I'm not talking about learning. I'm talking about sharing delicate personal matters and expecting a bunch of strangers to solve their personal problems for them. The forum is not a place for a confession.

Yet again, you're ignoring what people are saying, such as in post # 38:

Quote
From the home page:

We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  We pride ourselves on running the best Orthodox Christian forum on the Internet. This site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.

Asking for spiritual advice is only a very small part of "Discussion of topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity".
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« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2013, 07:58:50 AM »

I'm not ignoring. I just do not agree with you.
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« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2013, 07:59:15 AM »

Here is my contribution to this thread.

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« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2013, 08:04:32 AM »

I'm not talking about learning. I'm talking about sharing delicate personal matters and expecting a bunch of strangers to solve their personal problems for them. The forum is not a place for a confession.

Yet again, you're ignoring what people are saying, such as in post # 38:

Quote
From the home page:

We are a vibrant community dedicated to discussion of various topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity.  We pride ourselves on running the best Orthodox Christian forum on the Internet. This site exists as an Orthodox Forum where people who identify themselves as Orthodox are given a place to discuss things pertinent to the Orthodox Faith.

Asking for spiritual advice is only a very small part of "Discussion of topics related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity".

I'm not ignoring. I just do not agree with you.
Enough with the personal conflict, both of you! This thread is a place to discuss the general problem of rudeness on this forum, not a place for one to chastise another for being rude. If you really want to make this a personal battle, take it to PM's.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:07:08 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2013, 08:14:09 AM »

I don't think anyone is rude on this forum. Comparing this place to a few other sites, people here are a lot "nicer". This forum is a bit devoid of angry degenerates. Those are the most miserable people to deal with. The negativity and people trying to cut you down...I don't know how normal people can handle it...

I know for me I need to work on how I say stuff on here, but anytime I see someone open for a witty remark/jab I hope it isn't taken to heart.
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« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2013, 08:16:46 AM »

Again I wish I didn't gain thick skin cause of forums. I've lost a bit of sensitivity.
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« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2013, 08:26:19 AM »

Achronos, I don't think I've ever seen you post anything that I ever thought was remotely rude or mean.  Sometimes I get sick of you because of your saccharine sweetness, but that is another story...  Kiss
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« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2013, 08:29:53 AM »

Since the traffic on this site is low, and the regulars seem to "know" each others schtick well...how can you avoid people from ridiculing each other, and I mean this without an intent of malice?

For example, let's say I know Marc1152 is big on the paleo diet, a socialist, believes in rare earth hypothesis, thinks table sugar isn't natural, etc.

I love to play inside baseball, so I might make a slight comment to poke fun at him. Let's say he is talking about the Bible and I retort, was your Bible printed on 100% organic recyclable material?

I don't see how stuff like that is rude. I mean I hope folks don't think being clever or witty is rude.

When ialmisry gets into debates with folks, he super saturates the post with being witty or posting endless barbs. I don't see any snark in his posts. I really like it, because it's not bland or boring. He can be funny more often then not.
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« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2013, 08:34:26 AM »

I love isalmisry.  You can bust on him and he just don't care.

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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2013, 08:43:28 AM »

I suppose my starting point is highlighted by much of today's political correctness, which seems to allow for people to be offended EXCEPT in certain categories. That you may hurt or offend some and that is tough but offend others and you fall foul of the law.

My take is that there is no absolute right not to be offended.
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« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2013, 09:38:02 AM »

I don't think anyone is rude on this forum. Comparing this place to a few other sites, people here are a lot "nicer". This forum is a bit devoid of angry degenerates. Those are the most miserable people to deal with. The negativity and people trying to cut you down...I don't know how normal people can handle it...

I know for me I need to work on how I say stuff on here, but anytime I see someone open for a witty remark/jab I hope it isn't taken to heart.

Well, too late, because that is exactly what you do, all the time.

I guess rudeness is good, and all that stuff about Christian love is just a crock.

Those of you who want to, will be able to find me. Those who don't, won't care anyway. But I've about had it up to here.
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« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2013, 09:40:02 AM »

Do you really take what I say to heart? Have I been callous towards you?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:40:31 AM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2013, 09:50:01 AM »

I don't think anyone is rude on this forum. Comparing this place to a few other sites, people here are a lot "nicer". This forum is a bit devoid of angry degenerates. Those are the most miserable people to deal with. The negativity and people trying to cut you down...I don't know how normal people can handle it...

I know for me I need to work on how I say stuff on here, but anytime I see someone open for a witty remark/jab I hope it isn't taken to heart.

Well, too late, because that is exactly what you do, all the time.

I guess rudeness is good, and all that stuff about Christian love is just a crock.

Those of you who want to, will be able to find me. Those who don't, won't care anyway. But I've about had it up to here.
No offense, biro, but on my list of people who tend to be rude on this forum, your posts seem to be fairly high on that list.  It doesn't bother me, but before you want to start ripping into everyone else, perhaps some introspection would be beneficial.
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« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2013, 09:50:31 AM »

I don't think anyone is rude on this forum. Comparing this place to a few other sites, people here are a lot "nicer". This forum is a bit devoid of angry degenerates. Those are the most miserable people to deal with. The negativity and people trying to cut you down...I don't know how normal people can handle it...

I know for me I need to work on how I say stuff on here, but anytime I see someone open for a witty remark/jab I hope it isn't taken to heart.

I agree with you for the most part.  I do think there are a small handful of people that can be quite rude at times, but even then, I don't see the rudeness as constant.  However, I know that there are more than a few people here who are easily wounded and while many of us might be baffled by the hurt they experience, the hurt they are experiencing is real.  Whether they have "issues" that aren't really our problem is largely irrelevant, IMO.  As Christians we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.  With that in mind, I think we could all be a bit more careful in what we post, me included.
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« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »

While it may not be the most authoritative source in the world, it was the easiest for me to access at the moment.  Here's a definition of "rudeness" which is followed by something akin to an elaboration about it if you go to the link and read it.
Quote
Rudeness (also called impudence or effrontery) is a display of disrespect by not complying with the social "laws" or etiquette of a group or culture. These laws have been established as the essential boundaries of normally accepted behavior. To be unable or unwilling to align one's behavior with these laws known to the general population of what is socially acceptable is to be rude.

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core.

Forms of rudeness: inconsiderate, insensitive, deliberately offensive, impolite, a faux pas, obscenity, profanity, violating taboos, and deviancy. In some cases, an act of rudeness can go so far as to be criminal behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudeness

It might be useful for *this* discussion if folks would give specific examples of what they perceive to be "rudeness" on this board.
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« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2013, 10:11:30 AM »

Here's an example, freshly-minted, from the Orthodox-Catholic board. Daniel Smith posts a lengthy piece, but helpful to the OP and well-informed:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51543.msg1008083.html#msg1008083

The next post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51543.msg1008093.html#msg1008093

Quote
Too much to read! Lazy mode activated, shutting down. . .

Is it really necessary for someone to openly show such blatant discourtesy and disdain for the efforts of another, who is making an honest effort to actually help the OP, and, in this case, an OP who is seriously considering conversion to Orthodoxy?

If folks find it so arduous to read posts longer than a tweet, then at least have the decency to keep it to yourself.  Angry






Seriously?

You consider that rude? Or rude enough for the poster to be disciplined? I thought it was just silly and disregarded it.
I must have a high tolerance.

I agree with everyone who has noted that the perception of rudeness is notoriously subjective. Perhaps those who wish to impose their particular personal standards of communication/discourse/conversation on others should, IMHO of course, first come up with a definition of rudeness that we can all agree on.
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« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2013, 10:12:54 AM »

While it may not be the most authoritative source in the world, it was the easiest for me to access at the moment.  Here's a definition of "rudeness" which is followed by something akin to an elaboration about it if you go to the link and read it.
Quote
Rudeness (also called impudence or effrontery) is a display of disrespect by not complying with the social "laws" or etiquette of a group or culture. These laws have been established as the essential boundaries of normally accepted behavior. To be unable or unwilling to align one's behavior with these laws known to the general population of what is socially acceptable is to be rude.

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core.

Forms of rudeness: inconsiderate, insensitive, deliberately offensive, impolite, a faux pas, obscenity, profanity, violating taboos, and deviancy. In some cases, an act of rudeness can go so far as to be criminal behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudeness

It might be useful for *this* discussion if folks would give specific examples of what they perceive to be "rudeness" on this board.
It is rude for you to use bold lettering in posts as it makes my eyes go funny.  If I go blind, this could be considered criminal behavior and I will have you arrested.
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« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2013, 10:13:18 AM »

Well, too late, because that is exactly what you do, all the time.

I guess rudeness is good, and all that stuff about Christian love is just a crock.

Those of you who want to, will be able to find me. Those who don't, won't care anyway. But I've about had it up to here.

Okay, now this I might consider a tad rude - but just a smidge, mind you.
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« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2013, 10:20:02 AM »

While it may not be the most authoritative source in the world, it was the easiest for me to access at the moment.  Here's a definition of "rudeness" which is followed by something akin to an elaboration about it if you go to the link and read it.
Quote
Rudeness (also called impudence or effrontery) is a display of disrespect by not complying with the social "laws" or etiquette of a group or culture. These laws have been established as the essential boundaries of normally accepted behavior. To be unable or unwilling to align one's behavior with these laws known to the general population of what is socially acceptable is to be rude.

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core.

Forms of rudeness: inconsiderate, insensitive, deliberately offensive, impolite, a faux pas, obscenity, profanity, violating taboos, and deviancy. In some cases, an act of rudeness can go so far as to be criminal behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudeness

It might be useful for *this* discussion if folks would give specific examples of what they perceive to be "rudeness" on this board.
It is rude for you to use bold lettering in posts as it makes my eyes go funny.  If I go blind, this could be considered criminal behavior and I will have you arrested.

Would it be rude if I wrote, "Bite me!" Grin Grin Grin?  If you want to have me arrested, lovetzatziki is the man for the job! Grin

(Was that rude?)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 10:22:07 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2013, 10:22:35 AM »

I guess rudeness is good, and all that stuff about Christian love is just a crock.

Is calling someone a whitewashed tomb rude? Is calling someone snake or son of vipers rude? Should it be moderated?
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« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2013, 10:23:28 AM »

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« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2013, 10:29:59 AM »

Here's an example, freshly-minted, from the Orthodox-Catholic board. Daniel Smith posts a lengthy piece, but helpful to the OP and well-informed:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51543.msg1008083.html#msg1008083

The next post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51543.msg1008093.html#msg1008093

Quote
Too much to read! Lazy mode activated, shutting down. . .

Is it really necessary for someone to openly show such blatant discourtesy and disdain for the efforts of another, who is making an honest effort to actually help the OP, and, in this case, an OP who is seriously considering conversion to Orthodoxy?

If folks find it so arduous to read posts longer than a tweet, then at least have the decency to keep it to yourself.  Angry






Seriously?

You consider that rude? Or rude enough for the poster to be disciplined? I thought it was just silly and disregarded it.
I must have a high tolerance.

I agree with everyone who has noted that the perception of rudeness is notoriously subjective. Perhaps those who wish to impose their particular personal standards of communication/discourse/conversation on others should, IMHO of course, first come up with a definition of rudeness that we can all agree on.
The op deserves merciless ridicule only for using "phronema" non ironically. Let alone the length of that .
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« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2013, 10:39:12 AM »

Yeah. I really have no idea what the question is. Define 'Rudeness' please.  Grin
It's like pornography;I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
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« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2013, 10:40:43 AM »

Yeah. I really have no idea what the question is. Define 'Rudeness' please.  Grin
It's like pornography;I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

See reply #70, above.
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« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2013, 10:51:06 AM »


I agree with everyone who has noted that the perception of rudeness is notoriously subjective. Perhaps those who wish to impose their particular personal standards of communication/discourse/conversation on others should, IMHO of course, first come up with a definition of rudeness that we can all agree on.
How true. The rudeness is more frequently in the perception rather than in the act.

And, k-dixie, are you serious about there being a definition we can all agree on?  Cheesy?
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« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2013, 11:23:43 AM »

I voted no opinion because I am undecided.

This is in part due to these two posts above:

Again I wish I didn't gain thick skin cause of forums. I've lost a bit of sensitivity.

I do think there are a small handful of people that can be quite rude at times, but even then, I don't see the rudeness as constant.  However, I know that there are more than a few people here who are easily wounded and while many of us might be baffled by the hurt they experience, the hurt they are experiencing is real.  Whether they have "issues" that aren't really our problem is largely irrelevant, IMO.  As Christians we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.  With that in mind, I think we could all be a bit more careful in what we post, me included.

For an number of years after joining I thought this forum was often frightening, unpleasant to read, and my visits were sporadic. I preferred Byzcath and CAF.  There maybe others who do not post here currently feel the same way. I have no idea.

I think being sensitive to what others "might" feel or interpret is difficult in a forum setting but there are plenty of opportunities to learn from past mistakes.

I am also worried about become thick skinned. Perhaps more on this topic later.
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« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2013, 11:29:00 AM »


I agree with everyone who has noted that the perception of rudeness is notoriously subjective. Perhaps those who wish to impose their particular personal standards of communication/discourse/conversation on others should, IMHO of course, first come up with a definition of rudeness that we can all agree on.
How true. The rudeness is more frequently in the perception rather than in the act.

And, k-dixie, are you serious about there being a definition we can all agree on?  Cheesy?

Of course not! How rude of you.  Wink
Do you take me for a fool? (don't answer that - it might hurt my feelings.)

But we can't agree on anything around these here parts.
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« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2013, 11:32:51 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh

Surely you don't want to be offended by what others say, do you?
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« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2013, 11:34:10 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh
Because it makes you numb.
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« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2013, 11:34:44 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh

Surely you don't want to be offended by what others say, do you?

Beat me to it.  I was thinking the same thing.
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« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2013, 11:35:03 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh
Because it makes you numb.
 

How so?
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« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2013, 11:46:35 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh
Because it makes you numb.
 

How so?
I'd say the internet in general has greatly desensitized me. Whether it be with interactions from anonymous strangers to beastiality scat porn. Nothing phases me anymore.

I can tell you when I first started on online message boards in 2002 I was what, 13 years old? (Actually before that, maybe 2000-01? But I tell you those were way different times) I'd post some of the childish stuff at first, people would rip into me and I would seriously be in tears at what I was reading. I actually was being hurt by people I didn't even know. Kevin Smith created an awesome youtube video about how much of the internet is just a cesspit and how you just need to ignore 99% of the garbage folks spew. I mean people would savage him over his films, his writing and even comments directed at his wife, and he would get into these arguments with people all the time, but now he has wisened up a bit and doesn't feed this behavior or the attention people want from him. You're much better off not trying to get the last word in with folks and just leaving an argument if it gets out of control.

orthonorm likes to say I'm a maniac on here and sometimes, like our friend *, too much to handle once we kick our mania into a higher gear. I'm "eccentric" just to be eccentric, whether that's out of boredom or trying to be interesting, I don't know.

But when you have folks that truly insult you (never happened on here, yet), it should hurt. I think you should be upset at it. I mean I've disclosed a lot of my personal life out here on this board that if this was posted elsewhere, someone would have enough material to turn it around and strongly belittle me.

Biro posted something about her personal life on here that I can understand why she is very upset/angry over what either myself or someone else posts. Maybe I should be more sensitive towards her knowing a little of the circumstances she is in.
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« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2013, 11:51:53 AM »

What is wrong with being thick skinned?  Huh
Because it makes you numb.
 

How so?
I'd say the internet in general has greatly desensitized me. Whether it be with interactions from anonymous strangers to beastiality scat porn. Nothing phases me anymore.

I can tell you when I first started on online message boards in 2002 I was what, 13 years old? (Actually before that, maybe 2000-01? But I tell you those were way different times) I'd post some of the childish stuff at first, people would rip into me and I would seriously be in tears at what I was reading. I actually was being hurt by people I didn't even know. Kevin Smith created an awesome youtube video about how much of the internet is just a cesspit and how you just need to ignore 99% of the garbage folks spew. I mean people would savage him over his films, his writing and even comments directed at his wife, and he would get into these arguments with people all the time, but now he has wisened up a bit and doesn't feed this behavior or the attention people want from him. You're much better off not trying to get the last word in with folks and just leaving an argument if it gets out of control.

orthonorm likes to say I'm a maniac on here and sometimes, like our friend *, too much to handle once we kick our mania into a higher gear. I'm "eccentric" just to be eccentric, whether that's out of boredom or trying to be interesting, I don't know.

But when you have folks that truly insult you (never happened on here, yet), it should hurt. I think you should be upset at it. I mean I've disclosed a lot of my personal life out here on this board that if this was posted elsewhere, someone would have enough material to turn it around and strongly belittle me.

Biro posted something about her personal life on here that I can understand why she is very upset/angry over what either myself or someone else posts. Maybe I should be more sensitive towards her knowing a little of the circumstances she is in.

Being "thick skinned" is not the same as being devoid of sensitivity or humanity or caring.  It just means not being overly sensitive and being able to deal with criticism and others' stupidity and nonsense without becoming hurt by it, most especially when someone is actually trying to hurt you.
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« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2013, 11:54:04 AM »

I don't think you realize just how thick skinned I've become. There's a difference between critiscsm and people flat out disparaging you.

This is why I post on such few message boards. People think they are better and smarter than everyone else, and make it a point about it.

I dunno, its just not good for me mentally to read this stuff on a daily basis. So I quit places I no longer like to go to or have lost its initial luster.
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« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2013, 12:01:37 PM »

Again I wish I didn't gain thick skin cause of forums. I've lost a bit of sensitivity.

Sensitivity is unmanly.
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« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2013, 12:06:06 PM »

Again I wish I didn't gain thick skin cause of forums. I've lost a bit of sensitivity.

Sensitivity is unmanly.

Christianity is not about being manly or barbarian or woman, it is about being Christian. Here is where your quote from this morning would fit.
 
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