Author Topic: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire  (Read 3906 times)

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Offline Daniel Smith

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First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« on: October 17, 2013, 06:47:35 PM »
Greetings everyone, this is my first post, and what a post.

Recently, I have been considering the Oriental orthodox perspective of Chalcedon, and I admit there are many valid points.  :)

I do have a question though:

Where's the Holy Fire?  ???

If I understand Correctly, in the 16th century the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem attempted to call down the holy fire, and as a result, a pillar near him was shattered, and the candle of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Jerusalem was miraculously lit. This, coupled with the fact that at Pascha, the Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs  seem to be subjected to the Chalcedonian Orthodox makes me wonder about the veracity of their claim to the truth. If they are not Schismatic, then why are they not able to call down the Holy Fire as the Chalcedonian Patriarch is? Clearly they acknowledge the reality of the miracle, they are there every year, so how does an Oriental Orthodox person deal with this? If this is a legitimate miracle performed by God, specifically using the Chalcedonian Orthodox, and them alone, then how is it also not a symbol of God's favor toward the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

 ???

Non-polemically yours,

Daniel.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 07:09:26 PM »
With due respect to all Chalcedonians or other believers in the Holy Fire, why should presence of the fire or its absence or any supposed event connected to it matter to those outside of your communion one way or another? And, what's more, what does it matter that Oriental Orthodox are there every year? Armenians and Ethiopians and others also live in Jerusalem -- why wouldn't they be there? I live in a heavily Roman Catholic state, and one of our priests has mentioned going to Roman Catholic shrines in certain parts of the state, and even bringing members of the congregation with him to those places. Perhaps to outsiders this would be confused for belief in RC miracles, but the reality is much more benign: We live in a Catholic area, we get along with everybody, and so some people might go to these places simply to be with fellow Christians and hear about other traditions that they're unaware of.

That said, we do not use the many miracles present in our churches to validate the truth of our doctrine; they are signs for the faithful, not ammunition for polemics. To treat them otherwise would be a sign of an immature faith, at best. There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such. The consensus of the board, EO and RC alike, is that this is a really stupid way to behave. I agree, despite having no stake in its outcome, and would say the same about those in either communion who would say "we have this miracle and the other communion doesn't, therefore our faith is true and theirs is not." We don't ask why the Theotokos appeared over a Coptic Church and not a Greek one in Zeitoun, to use the most famous example. That doesn't matter. Most importantly, she appeared before all people (even non-Christians; even the President of Egypt himself!) as a blessing for all who saw her. The Holy Fire can be conceived of similarly, if you choose to look at it that way. There are miracles outside of the Church, after all; as a matter of principle, the Holy Spirit is not bound by ecclesiastical division or jurisdiction. :)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:10:53 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 07:19:19 PM »
Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I have an additional question dzheremi:
Is there any historical evidence that Dioscorus was a saint and behaved as such, and not the "New Pharaoh" that he is characterized as at Chalcedon?

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »
Welcome!

Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I don't know anything about her life nor all that much about the monophysite controversy but do keep in mind that the right-believing Empress Pulcheria is commemorated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:41:55 PM by Hawkeye »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 07:38:22 PM »
Thanks for your reply, Daniel, and welcome to the forum.

I cannot help you in trying to find reasons to object to the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox faith.

Regarding HH St. Dioscorus, for me it is enough that we commemorate him by name in every liturgy during the commemoration of the Patriarchs, but it might interest you to know that the Chalcedonian Patriarch Timothy III (Salophakiolos), continued to venerate him liturgically by including him in the diptych during the liturgy in the Chalcedonian Church in Egypt for some time after the Council had rendered its verdict.

Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me, but I note that even there some of his persecutors, such as one Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople, noted specifically that he was not deposed for heresy of any kind. Such references that there are in the texts to any supposed heresy (such as from the Alexandrian 'witnesses') are significantly vague so as to be meaningless. 'He had a bad conscience' or similar. :-\
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:41:11 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 07:48:44 PM »
Welcome!

Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I don't know anything about her life nor all that much about the monophysite controversy but do keep in mind that the right-believing Empress Pulcheria is commemorated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

She also lived in virginity.
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Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 07:49:54 PM »
That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:50:45 PM by Daniel Smith »

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 07:52:43 PM »
That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.
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Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 07:58:10 PM »
Well, then, in that case, God forgive me, I never meant to slander a saint. I retract it. I must have read some polemical material. Forgive me for inadvertently blaspheming God's saint. :'(


Offline Hawkeye

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 08:04:02 PM »
That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

On the other hand, does the Orthodox Church venerate Theodosius II? That's not something I've heard before.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 08:09:52 PM »
Well, then, in that case, God forgive me, I never meant to slander a saint. I retract it. I must have read some polemical material. Forgive me for inadvertently blaspheming God's saint. :'(



Don't worry, it was a misunderstanding. Even saints can make mistakes.  :)

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Cyril learned to overcome his prejudice against the memory of the great John Chrysostom (November 13). Theophilus, the Patriarch of Alexandria, and uncle of Cyril, was an antagonist of John, and presided in a council in judgment of him. Cyril thus found himself in a circle antagonistic to John Chrysostom, and involuntarily acquired a prejudice against him. Isidore of Pelusium (February 4) repeatedly wrote to Cyril and urged him to include the name of the great Father of the Church into the diptychs of the saints, but Cyril would not agree.

Once in a dream he saw a wondrous temple, in which the Mother of God was surrounded by a host of angels and saints, in whose number was John Chrysostom. When Cyril wanted to approach the All-Holy Lady and venerate her, John Chrysostom would not let him. The Theotokos asked John to forgive Cyril for having sinned against him through ignorance. Seeing that John hesitated, the Mother of God said, “Forgive him for my sake, since he has labored much for my honor, and has glorified me among the people calling me Theotokos.” John answered, “By your intercession, Lady, I do forgive him,” and then he embraced Cyril with love.
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Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 08:20:59 PM »
The problem I am having brothers, is that the acts of Chalcedon contain many vain and false accusations against Dioscorus, which can be historically verified. This does not sit well with me. Can a council be ecumenical and still politically motivated?

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 08:32:52 PM »
If I understand Correctly, in the 16th century the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem attempted to call down the holy fire, and as a result, a pillar near him was shattered, and the candle of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Jerusalem was miraculously lit.

Assuming this is actually what happened, it may have nothing to do with Chalcedon and everything to do with God striking down the arrogance of the proud.  Greeks and Armenians have a history of one-upmanship and strife at the Tomb, and no one's cassock is clean.  People will believe what they want about such things, but that itself doesn't establish faith.

Quote
This, coupled with the fact that at Pascha, the Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs  seem to be subjected to the Chalcedonian Orthodox makes me wonder about the veracity of their claim to the truth.

No more subjected than when our Patriarch celebrates the Liturgy within the Tomb and the Greeks and Latins are on the outside.  The Holy Fire ceremony is part of a Greek service, it's not an ecumenical prayer service.  But we are all there for Pascha, and so we join them.

Quote
If they are not Schismatic, then why are they not able to call down the Holy Fire as the Chalcedonian Patriarch is?

When I was in college, the priest at the OCA parish I regularly attended was formerly the head of the Russian Mission in Jerusalem.  I asked him about the Holy Fire, and he gave me a funny look and told me quite bluntly that the Greek Patriarch lights it the way anyone else would light it, and that there was no miracle involved.  

He's not the only one to call the whole thing into question.  Whether one believes in it or not, the Holy Fire is really not a proof of anything except that Eastern Christians know how to celebrate Pascha.

Quote
Clearly they acknowledge the reality of the miracle, they are there every year, so how does an Oriental Orthodox person deal with this?

This is how we deal with it: http://youtu.be/vd3Hn-iMs34?t=53s  :)

I don't know if we can say that the OO clearly acknowledge the reality of the miracle: I suppose most would, and some would doubt.  They are there not merely for the Holy Fire, if they are there for it at all.  They are there to celebrate the Pascha of the Lord at Golgotha and the Empty Tomb.  I suspect that's why most of the other pilgrims are there too, it's not just people searching for miracles.  

Quote
If this is a legitimate miracle performed by God, specifically using the Chalcedonian Orthodox, and them alone, then how is it also not a symbol of God's favor toward the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

Both RC's and OO's have miracles that are exclusively theirs.  What does that prove about God's favour?

The Psalmist says that God is in heaven and does whatever he wants.  But we don't base our faith on God's exceptions, but rather on his revelation.    
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 08:33:12 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 08:36:09 PM »
To cut to the point the Armenians are quite an intrepid race ski do t understand how they have t obtained the miraculous recipe yet.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Daniel.   :)

The Holy Fire has been discussed before, both in the public forum and in the private (for polemics) forum.  I seem to recall asking for a contemporary source for the  story about the Armenian archbishop and no one could find any.  Whatever.  I like what Mor had to say on the subject.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 08:57:13 PM »
Can a council be ecumenical and still politically motivated?

Yes. Do yourself a favor and disabuse yourself as soon as possible in the belief that anything is apolitical. You would think a group of people so prone to worship that which is Greek would understand everything is political.

And don't place your faith in fireworks.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 08:59:57 PM »
That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

I think the witch-hunting culture we live in along with some odd notions about sainthood would not allow St. Paul to find consensus as a Saint if he lived today.
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 10:23:57 PM »
If the EO are truly Orthodox, how come St. Mary does not appear among them as clearly and frequently as among the Copts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTcZXb5wGDU

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:24:28 PM by Jonathan »

Offline Daniel Smith

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 11:47:50 PM »
It's not a question of God not acting outside the Church, clearly he does, or none would be moved to repent and join her. The grace of the Holy Spirit permeates all creation: But it only indwells the baptized as St. Diadokos of Photiki teaches.

Be that as it may, my agony is that I see in History and in the Letters of some Saints, things such as St. Leo being led around by Theodoret. In fact, his Christology is identical to Theodoret. Read Theodorets Censure of St. Cyrils 12 chapters, and then Read St. Leos letter to the Monks of Palestine, who rejected the Tome, where he supposedly clarifies his position, and all he does is restate what the Tome says. There is a lot of Ambiguous language.

For Example, relating to the Comparison of St. Leo and Theodoret:

Against St. Cyrils 5th Anathema, Theodoret the crypto-Nestorian Writes:

Against V.— We assert that God the Word shared like ourselves in flesh and blood, and in immortal soul, on account of the union relating to them; but that God the Word was made flesh by any change we not only refuse to say, but accuse of impiety those who do, and it may be seen that this is contrary to the very terms laid down. For if the Word was changed into flesh He did not share with us in flesh and blood: but if He shared in flesh and blood He shared as being another besides them: and if the flesh is anything other besides Him, then He was not changed into flesh. While therefore we use the term sharing  we worship both Him that took and that which was taken as one Son. But we reckon the distinction of the natures. We do not object to the term man bearing God, as employed by many of the holy Fathers, one of whom is the great Basil, who uses this term in his argument to Amphilochius about the Holy Ghost, and in his interpretation of the fifty-ninth psalm. But we call Him man bearing God, not because He received some particular divine grace, but as possessing all the Godhead of the Son united. For thus says the blessed Paul in his interpretation, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

So many words that say nothing. Nestorius could have said all of the above. Notice How God the word Shares flesh and blood, not that he has taken them to himself and made them his very own by nature, so that in the incarnation of the Logos we say that the humanity assumed is natural to the Logos as is the divinity proper to him being Logos. So a union of two natures in a single Hypostasis that truly owns both natures as his own. But the one Subject is the Logos. The natures continue whole and undivided, distinguished only abstractly and in theory.

Now, an Extract from Leos Letter to the Monks of Palestine:

"Although therefore in our one Lord Jesus Christ, the true Son of God and man, the person of the Word and of the flesh is one, and both beings have their actions in common : yet we must understand the character of the acts themselves, and by the contemplation of sincere faith distinguish those to which the humility of His weakness is brought from those to which His sublime power is inclined: what it is that the flesh without the Word or the Word without the flesh does not do."

Again:

"Although therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is one, and the true Godhead and true Manhood in Him forms absolutely one and the same person, and the entirety of this union cannot be separated by any division, yet the exaltation wherewith “God exalted Him,” and “gave Him a name which excels every name,” we understand to belong to that form which needed to be enriched by this increase of glory."

So it is not the Logos made flesh that is exalted, but the flesh as a separate form. Once again, this goes against the 12 Anathemas of St. Cyril, especially anathema IV.

"If any one divides between two persons or hypostases the expressions used in the writings of evangelists and apostles, whether spoken by the saints of Christ or by Him about Himself, and applies the one as to a man considered properly apart from the Word of God, and the others as appropriate to the divine and the Word of God the Father alone, let him be anathema."

Again, Theodoret writing against anathema IV says: " Not then to God the Word does the ignorance belong, but to the form of the servant who at that time knew as much as the indwelling Godhead revealed. The same position may be maintained about other similar cases. How for instance could it be reasonable for God the Word to say to the Father, “Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not as I will but as You will”?  The absurdities which necessarily thence follow are not a few. First it follows that the Father and the Son are not of the same mind, and that the Father wishes one thing and the Son another, for He said, “Nevertheless not as I will but as You will.”

Was St. Leo a puppet or in collusion with Theodoret? I do not know. Clearly Leo anathematized Nestorius, but he seems to have no knowledge of St. Cyrils Mia Physis.

I do know that he wrote to Theodoret after Chalcedon describing it as their common victory against Dioscorus:

"While he [Dioscorus] tried to drive you out of your churches, he has cut off himself from fellowship with Christians. While he drags and drives many into agreement with error, he has stabbed his own soul with many a wound, a solitary convicted offender beyond all, and through all and for all, for he was the cause of all men's being accused."

But this is not true. Leo himself had written to Marcian that same year, 451, after having already complained about Dioscorus,

" It is not our duty to doubt Eutyches, whether he has erred because of his evil principles or not; we should not suspect the judgment of Dioscorus against Flavianus of blessed memory whether it was deceitful or not; but a number of bishops have repented and have made known to us the evil that has happened. They have asked to be forgiven for all their short-comings. Therefore, we should not investigate their faith, we should accept and forgive them.”

So the question is if St. Leo says it is not our duty to do these things...

Why does Chalcedon exist? I am not attempting to repudiate it, but be critical of it, as was Fr. Romanides.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 11:58:14 PM »
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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 12:57:20 AM »
That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

On the other hand, does the Orthodox Church venerate Theodosius II? That's not something I've heard before.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 01:05:01 AM »
For an OO viewpoint on Chalcedon, Fr. VC Samuels' The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined appears to be the most widely-available, thorough text. You might want to look into it if you haven't already, OP.

Offline mike

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 02:27:32 AM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 05:21:23 AM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  ;)
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[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 12:52:16 PM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  ;)

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 ;)
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 01:18:45 PM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  ;)

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 ;)
Oh SNAP that was clever!  :laugh:
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Offline KostaC

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 11:08:02 PM »
There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such.

I know that this is pretty irrelevant, but does anyone know about the thread that discusses the two Archbishops' feud? I've been trying to search for it out of curiosity, but with no results so far.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 11:31:54 AM »
There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such.

I know that this is pretty irrelevant, but does anyone know about the thread that discusses the two Archbishops' feud? I've been trying to search for it out of curiosity, but with no results so far.

Here you go. The default search sucks; you're better off entering "site:orthodoxchristianity.net -----" into Google. Replace the dashes with whatever you're looking for.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »
Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 12:36:08 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 12:40:42 PM »
Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  :)

That's really good.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2013, 01:13:11 PM »
Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  :)


I'm a little dense. Was there a rumor that he had a mistress?

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2013, 01:13:45 PM »
I'm a little dense. Was there a rumor that he had a mistress?

Yes, to the hilarity of the Alexandrians.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 01:16:21 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2013, 01:39:20 PM »
A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  :)


May he forgive me, but I laughed too.  This sort of humour has been preserved faithfully in our Church, along with the Orthodox faith.  :)
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2013, 04:34:02 PM »
it's interesting that nearly all the copts i know believe in the holy fire.
we also all believe in the appearance of saint mary at zeitoun.
i have met a muslim who saw her too, and remains deeply affected to this day by the experience.

i agree with the points above that God isn't limited by church boundaries.
i personally know about 2 miracles that have happened in a protestant setting, but that didn't stop me leaving the protestant churches.

rather than wondering whose side God is on, i should ask myself; 'am i on God's side?'

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2013, 05:18:48 PM »
Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2013, 08:32:38 PM »
Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
+1

It is a true blessing that I grew up in the faith BEFORE I learned of Chalcedon, which its deep study is a true faith shaker.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 08:35:19 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2013, 09:00:12 PM »
Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
+1

It is a true blessing that I grew up in the faith BEFORE I learned of Chalcedon, which its deep study is a true faith shaker.
What makes you say that? Just curious.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2013, 09:04:15 PM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  ;)

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 ;)

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2013, 09:26:12 PM »
Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  ;)

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 ;)

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.
Your only  151 posts in.  You'll get some.  ;)
Will we all have to prove our Orthodoxy by adopting St Nicholas avatars now?

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2013, 09:31:41 PM »
If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.

Technically, the QQ wasn't mine, it was Jesus'.  Feel better?  :)
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Offline hecma925

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2013, 09:47:57 PM »
I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. ;D
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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2013, 10:49:32 PM »
I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. ;D

You're Carmen Electra?

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2013, 10:50:57 PM »
If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.

Technically, the QQ wasn't mine, it was Jesus'.  Feel better?  :)

I'm not sure I do. It was one thing to be humbled by a simple man but by the Lord himself?

I can't imagine all that many things cut as deep.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2013, 10:52:10 PM »
I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. ;D

You're Carmen Electra?

That would be awesome!
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2013, 10:53:16 PM »
I'm not sure I do. It was one thing to be humbled by a simple man but by the Lord himself?

I can't imagine all that many things cut as deep.

You want to know one thing that cuts as deep, if not deeper?  Referring to me as a "simple man". 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.