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Author Topic: The Church of Ethiopia and the Pope of Alexandria  (Read 894 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 23, 2013, 03:25:43 PM »

What is the relationship between the current EOTC and the Coptic Pope? I ask because I was reading about Orthodoxy in Ethiopia and one thing it mentioned was that when the Eritrean Church sought autocephaly, it asked the Pope of Alexandria, not the Patriarch-Catholicos of Ethiopia. I thought the EOTC was autocephalous, which would make the Ethiopian Patriarch the one to ask.
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 03:48:37 PM »

Regarding the Ethiopian and Coptic Orthodox Churches, they are in full communion with each other.  Out of respect for the Pope's seniority, there may be some deference, but functionally they are equals within their own Churches. 

I'll let someone else handle the details of the Eritrean situation.  I suspect they approached the Pope for autocephaly rather than the Ethiopian Patriarch because a) he might be more neutral or even more favourable to the cause, b) because of his seniority, and/or c) it was the Pope of Alexandria that granted Ethiopia its autocephaly in the first place. 
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 03:57:43 PM »

So who is more senior? Patriarch Theodore II or Patriarch Ignatius Zacchaeus or Patriarch Karekin II?
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 03:59:28 PM »

According to the diptychs, definitely Pope Tawadros II.  According to years ordained as bishop/enthroned as Patriarch, probably Patriarch Ignatius Zakka.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 04:01:33 PM »

According to the diptychs, definitely Pope Tawadros II.

So the OO dyptychs are like:

Alexandria
Antioch
Etchmiadzyn
and then what?
Ethiopia
Eritrea
India?
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 04:13:19 PM »

So the OO dyptychs are like:

Alexandria
Antioch
Etchmiadzyn
and then what?
Ethiopia
Eritrea
India?

More or less.  To my knowledge, there's no definite order recognised by all the way there is among the EO.  We know the position of Alexandria and Antioch due to the ecumenical synods.  After them, I would say Etchmiadzin, Cilicia (?), Ethiopia, and India (if I'm remembering correctly the order they appeared in Addis in 1965), and then Eritrea since its autocephaly came afterwards.   
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 04:15:27 PM »

So if you mentioned Cilicia why to omit Constantinople and Jerusalem?
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2013, 04:25:27 PM »

That's why I put a question mark next to it.  I think Constantinople and Jerusalem are designated as patriarchates as an honorific, but in actuality are Archbishops under the Catholicos in Etchmiadzin.  Cilicia is a separate jurisdiction: is it a separate autocephalous Church, though?  I think so (e.g., they have their own Synod, consecrate their own Chrism), but I am not 100% sure.   
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 04:25:52 PM »

So the OO dyptychs are like:

Alexandria
Antioch
Etchmiadzyn
and then what?
Ethiopia
Eritrea
India?

More or less.  To my knowledge, there's no definite order recognised by all the way there is among the EO.  We know the position of Alexandria and Antioch due to the ecumenical synods.  After them, I would say Etchmiadzin, Cilicia (?), Ethiopia, and India (if I'm remembering correctly the order they appeared in Addis in 1965), and then Eritrea since its autocephaly came afterwards.    

I think India came before Ethiopia in that council, at least, this picture would suggest so.


Left to Right: HH Kyrillos VI, HH Ignatios Yaq'ub III, HH Vazken I, HH Khoren I, HH Baselios Augen I, and I think the last one is HH Baselios I of the EOTC.


So if you mentioned Cilicia why to omit Constantinople and Jerusalem?
The Armenian Catholicate of Cilicia is completely Autocephalous, Constantinople and Jerusalem on the other hand are semi-autonomous jurisdictions under Etchmiadzin.
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 04:30:40 PM »

Interesting, thanks for the photo.  My presumption was that the reunification of the Indian Church in 1957 coincided, roughly, with the autocephaly of the Ethiopian Church.  If the Ethiopians were granted autocephaly after 1957, or if 1912 was the date used for the Indians, it makes sense for Ethiopia and Eritrea to come after India.

Anyway, it's not so strictly adhered to.
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »

I think that Mor Ephrem is correct in stating that other than Alexandria and Antioch holding the primary and secondary spots of honor respectively, there are no other hard and fast rules concerning the order in which our patriarchs are commemorated in the diptychs.

With regards to the photo from the Addis Ababa Conference, it might be wise to note that the order in which the patriarchs and catholicoi were seated at the conference does not necessarily reflect the order in which they might be commemorated liturgically or have anything to do with primacy of honor.  In fact, an older Ethiopian friend of mine whom I regard as something of a church scholar once told me that H.H. Abune Basileos insisted on being seated at the "low" end of the table because of his legendary humility and because he thought it good manners as the host not to place himself "above" the heads of the other churches, not because any of them (other than the patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch) were regarded as having any sort of "seniority" or "primacy of honor" on him.

There's another custom I'd like to note.  I've been blessed to attend every official Oriental Orthodox Concelebrated Liturgy held on the East Coast since they started holding them again (after a long hiatus) back in the early millennium, and the general rule seems to be that the patriarch of the hosting church is always commemorated first, then the patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch (if one of them wasn't the hosting church), and then the others in an order which seems to rotate or change.

For example, in the first Oriental Orthodox Concelebrated Liturgy held in the United States (1976) hosted by the Armenian Church, the order was:

Armenia (Etchmiadzin)
Alexandria
Antioch
Ethiopia

and the last time the Concelebrated Liturgy was hosted by the Coptic Church (2011) the order was:

Alexandria
Antioch
Ethiopia
Armenia (Etchmiadzin)
Eritrea

At any rate, I would certainly hesitate to say that any see other than Alexandria or Antioch (or the hosting church) were to be commemorated before any other on a regular basis.
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2013, 12:07:54 AM »

Ya, there's no "real" order of primacy in our diptychs.  Our diptychs are also not fully established really.  Apart from concelebration, our Coptic liturgies only commemorate Alexandria, then Antioch, then Ethiopia, then Eritrea (for some time, Ethiopia was excluded due to friction, which was brought to reconciliation by the Armenian Catholicos between the late patriarchs of Alexandria and Addis Ababa, Pope Shenouda and Abune Pavlos respectively).

But when there is concelebration or patriarchal meetings, the "host" gets the primary honor.  Otherwise, it would seem to go Alexandria, Antioch, Armenia, then God knows what comes next.  Tongue  I personally would like to see a sense of "term" honor primacy.  I know in the ancient world, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria had primary honor in the empire, but perhaps today, we should perhaps do something that is similar to the ancient Jewish laws.  Just as St. Zacharias was chosen by lot to enter the temple, perhaps we should choose by lot who would convene the patriarchs and hold primary honor and arbiter-ship  Wink

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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2013, 01:01:40 AM »

Apart from concelebration, our Coptic liturgies only commemorate Alexandria, then Antioch, then Ethiopia, then Eritrea.

That's funny cause in the SOC I think they just commemorate Antioch and Malankara. In India we commemorate three hierarchs, Antioch, Malankara and IIRC, Jerusalem.
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 01:45:55 AM »

In India we commemorate three hierarchs, Antioch, Malankara and IIRC, Jerusalem.

You commemorate another one autonomous Church?
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 02:00:01 AM »

I believe the Jerusalem in this case refers to refers to the Syrian Orthodox Bishop of Jerusalem, not the Armenian one. I think the reason for this is because it was a SOC Bishop of Jerusalem, Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel, who came to regularize the Malankara Church after the Goan Inquisition left us basically bishopless. Because of this we commemorate Jerusalem, normally just a bishopric in our tradition, among the Patriarchs in our Diptychs.
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 06:26:01 AM »

But when there is concelebration or patriarchal meetings, the "host" gets the primary honor.  Otherwise, it would seem to go Alexandria, Antioch, Armenia, then God knows what comes next.

I've seen Ethiopia commemorated before Armenia in concelebrations more than once.  As you've said, I don't think our diptychs are fully developed.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 12:48:37 PM »

Alexandria, Antioch, Addis Ababa, Armenia, Asmara...man, the OO Church is almost the Church of A's...(but Kerala had to ruin it  Wink )
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 01:02:46 PM »

If only Ankamaly had remained Orthodox. Tongue
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 01:35:51 PM »

That's funny cause in the SOC I think they just commemorate Antioch and Malankara. In India we commemorate three hierarchs, Antioch, Malankara and IIRC, Jerusalem.

Actually, SOC parishes commemorate Antioch (obviously), Alexandria, and the local bishop.  Only in India, or when the Catholicos of India is actually there among them, would they commemorate their primate there.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 02:16:11 PM »

Huh I wasn't really sure about the Catholicose, but I thought I remembered seeing an SOC text that mentioned Mor Baselios in the diptychs, guess I was wrong. As for Alexandria, I figured since we don't commemorate the Pope, the SOC wouldn't either. Is this commemoration a more recent phenomenon?
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2013, 02:31:05 PM »

Huh I wasn't really about the Catholicose, but I thought I remembered seeing an SOC text that mentioned Mor Baselios in the diptychs, guess I was wrong.

In the book of Anaphoras published by their Eastern US Archdiocese, the rubrics are in line with what I wrote. 

Quote
As for Alexandria, I figured since we don't commemorate the Pope, the SOC wouldn't either. Is this commemoration a more recent phenomenon?

It's more recent than the advent of the West Syriac liturgy in India, but I don't know how recent.   
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