OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 05:41:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: First Post: Have the Oriental Orthodox, Holy Fire  (Read 2963 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« on: October 17, 2013, 06:47:35 PM »

Greetings everyone, this is my first post, and what a post.

Recently, I have been considering the Oriental orthodox perspective of Chalcedon, and I admit there are many valid points.  Smiley

I do have a question though:

Where's the Holy Fire?  Huh

If I understand Correctly, in the 16th century the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem attempted to call down the holy fire, and as a result, a pillar near him was shattered, and the candle of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Jerusalem was miraculously lit. This, coupled with the fact that at Pascha, the Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs  seem to be subjected to the Chalcedonian Orthodox makes me wonder about the veracity of their claim to the truth. If they are not Schismatic, then why are they not able to call down the Holy Fire as the Chalcedonian Patriarch is? Clearly they acknowledge the reality of the miracle, they are there every year, so how does an Oriental Orthodox person deal with this? If this is a legitimate miracle performed by God, specifically using the Chalcedonian Orthodox, and them alone, then how is it also not a symbol of God's favor toward the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

 Huh

Non-polemically yours,

Daniel.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 07:09:26 PM »

With due respect to all Chalcedonians or other believers in the Holy Fire, why should presence of the fire or its absence or any supposed event connected to it matter to those outside of your communion one way or another? And, what's more, what does it matter that Oriental Orthodox are there every year? Armenians and Ethiopians and others also live in Jerusalem -- why wouldn't they be there? I live in a heavily Roman Catholic state, and one of our priests has mentioned going to Roman Catholic shrines in certain parts of the state, and even bringing members of the congregation with him to those places. Perhaps to outsiders this would be confused for belief in RC miracles, but the reality is much more benign: We live in a Catholic area, we get along with everybody, and so some people might go to these places simply to be with fellow Christians and hear about other traditions that they're unaware of.

That said, we do not use the many miracles present in our churches to validate the truth of our doctrine; they are signs for the faithful, not ammunition for polemics. To treat them otherwise would be a sign of an immature faith, at best. There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such. The consensus of the board, EO and RC alike, is that this is a really stupid way to behave. I agree, despite having no stake in its outcome, and would say the same about those in either communion who would say "we have this miracle and the other communion doesn't, therefore our faith is true and theirs is not." We don't ask why the Theotokos appeared over a Coptic Church and not a Greek one in Zeitoun, to use the most famous example. That doesn't matter. Most importantly, she appeared before all people (even non-Christians; even the President of Egypt himself!) as a blessing for all who saw her. The Holy Fire can be conceived of similarly, if you choose to look at it that way. There are miracles outside of the Church, after all; as a matter of principle, the Holy Spirit is not bound by ecclesiastical division or jurisdiction. Smiley
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:10:53 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 07:19:19 PM »

Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I have an additional question dzheremi:
Is there any historical evidence that Dioscorus was a saint and behaved as such, and not the "New Pharaoh" that he is characterized as at Chalcedon?
Logged
Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »

Welcome!

Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I don't know anything about her life nor all that much about the monophysite controversy but do keep in mind that the right-believing Empress Pulcheria is commemorated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:41:55 PM by Hawkeye » Logged

dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 07:38:22 PM »

Thanks for your reply, Daniel, and welcome to the forum.

I cannot help you in trying to find reasons to object to the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox faith.

Regarding HH St. Dioscorus, for me it is enough that we commemorate him by name in every liturgy during the commemoration of the Patriarchs, but it might interest you to know that the Chalcedonian Patriarch Timothy III (Salophakiolos), continued to venerate him liturgically by including him in the diptych during the liturgy in the Chalcedonian Church in Egypt for some time after the Council had rendered its verdict.

Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me, but I note that even there some of his persecutors, such as one Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople, noted specifically that he was not deposed for heresy of any kind. Such references that there are in the texts to any supposed heresy (such as from the Alexandrian 'witnesses') are significantly vague so as to be meaningless. 'He had a bad conscience' or similar. Undecided
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:41:11 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 07:48:44 PM »

Welcome!

Please do not misunderstand me, I know I am new, I simply am trying to put together the pieces of my fractured perspective after actually READING the acts of Chalcedon and the Acts of Ephesus II, along with the actual letters of Pope St. Leo and Emperor Theodosius, and the depraved Pulcheria (yes, depraved). I am on a mission here, and I am just trying to think of possible reasons one would object to the Non-Chalcedonians being Orthodox, one is this potential show of Divine Favor. However, your explanation does make a point, which I acknowledge.

I don't know anything about her life nor all that much about the monophysite controversy but do keep in mind that the right-believing Empress Pulcheria is commemorated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

She also lived in virginity.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 07:49:54 PM »

That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:50:45 PM by Daniel Smith » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 07:52:43 PM »

That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 07:58:10 PM »

Well, then, in that case, God forgive me, I never meant to slander a saint. I retract it. I must have read some polemical material. Forgive me for inadvertently blaspheming God's saint. Cry

Logged
Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 08:04:02 PM »

That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

On the other hand, does the Orthodox Church venerate Theodosius II? That's not something I've heard before.
Logged

Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 2,995


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 08:09:52 PM »

Well, then, in that case, God forgive me, I never meant to slander a saint. I retract it. I must have read some polemical material. Forgive me for inadvertently blaspheming God's saint. Cry



Don't worry, it was a misunderstanding. Even saints can make mistakes.  Smiley

Quote
Cyril learned to overcome his prejudice against the memory of the great John Chrysostom (November 13). Theophilus, the Patriarch of Alexandria, and uncle of Cyril, was an antagonist of John, and presided in a council in judgment of him. Cyril thus found himself in a circle antagonistic to John Chrysostom, and involuntarily acquired a prejudice against him. Isidore of Pelusium (February 4) repeatedly wrote to Cyril and urged him to include the name of the great Father of the Church into the diptychs of the saints, but Cyril would not agree.

Once in a dream he saw a wondrous temple, in which the Mother of God was surrounded by a host of angels and saints, in whose number was John Chrysostom. When Cyril wanted to approach the All-Holy Lady and venerate her, John Chrysostom would not let him. The Theotokos asked John to forgive Cyril for having sinned against him through ignorance. Seeing that John hesitated, the Mother of God said, “Forgive him for my sake, since he has labored much for my honor, and has glorified me among the people calling me Theotokos.” John answered, “By your intercession, Lady, I do forgive him,” and then he embraced Cyril with love.
http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 08:20:59 PM »

The problem I am having brothers, is that the acts of Chalcedon contain many vain and false accusations against Dioscorus, which can be historically verified. This does not sit well with me. Can a council be ecumenical and still politically motivated?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 08:32:52 PM »

If I understand Correctly, in the 16th century the Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem attempted to call down the holy fire, and as a result, a pillar near him was shattered, and the candle of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Jerusalem was miraculously lit.

Assuming this is actually what happened, it may have nothing to do with Chalcedon and everything to do with God striking down the arrogance of the proud.  Greeks and Armenians have a history of one-upmanship and strife at the Tomb, and no one's cassock is clean.  People will believe what they want about such things, but that itself doesn't establish faith.

Quote
This, coupled with the fact that at Pascha, the Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs  seem to be subjected to the Chalcedonian Orthodox makes me wonder about the veracity of their claim to the truth.

No more subjected than when our Patriarch celebrates the Liturgy within the Tomb and the Greeks and Latins are on the outside.  The Holy Fire ceremony is part of a Greek service, it's not an ecumenical prayer service.  But we are all there for Pascha, and so we join them.

Quote
If they are not Schismatic, then why are they not able to call down the Holy Fire as the Chalcedonian Patriarch is?

When I was in college, the priest at the OCA parish I regularly attended was formerly the head of the Russian Mission in Jerusalem.  I asked him about the Holy Fire, and he gave me a funny look and told me quite bluntly that the Greek Patriarch lights it the way anyone else would light it, and that there was no miracle involved.  

He's not the only one to call the whole thing into question.  Whether one believes in it or not, the Holy Fire is really not a proof of anything except that Eastern Christians know how to celebrate Pascha.

Quote
Clearly they acknowledge the reality of the miracle, they are there every year, so how does an Oriental Orthodox person deal with this?

This is how we deal with it: http://youtu.be/vd3Hn-iMs34?t=53s  Smiley

I don't know if we can say that the OO clearly acknowledge the reality of the miracle: I suppose most would, and some would doubt.  They are there not merely for the Holy Fire, if they are there for it at all.  They are there to celebrate the Pascha of the Lord at Golgotha and the Empty Tomb.  I suspect that's why most of the other pilgrims are there too, it's not just people searching for miracles.  

Quote
If this is a legitimate miracle performed by God, specifically using the Chalcedonian Orthodox, and them alone, then how is it also not a symbol of God's favor toward the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church?

Both RC's and OO's have miracles that are exclusively theirs.  What does that prove about God's favour?

The Psalmist says that God is in heaven and does whatever he wants.  But we don't base our faith on God's exceptions, but rather on his revelation.    
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 08:33:12 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 08:36:09 PM »

To cut to the point the Armenians are quite an intrepid race ski do t understand how they have t obtained the miraculous recipe yet.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,760


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Daniel.   Smiley

The Holy Fire has been discussed before, both in the public forum and in the private (for polemics) forum.  I seem to recall asking for a contemporary source for the  story about the Armenian archbishop and no one could find any.  Whatever.  I like what Mor had to say on the subject.
Logged

orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,541



« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 08:57:13 PM »

Can a council be ecumenical and still politically motivated?

Yes. Do yourself a favor and disabuse yourself as soon as possible in the belief that anything is apolitical. You would think a group of people so prone to worship that which is Greek would understand everything is political.

And don't place your faith in fireworks.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,541



« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 08:59:57 PM »

That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

I think the witch-hunting culture we live in along with some odd notions about sainthood would not allow St. Paul to find consensus as a Saint if he lived today.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 805


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 10:23:57 PM »

If the EO are truly Orthodox, how come St. Mary does not appear among them as clearly and frequently as among the Copts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTcZXb5wGDU

Using miracles to determine which side is right is a bad idea. It presumes that God is bound by your definition of the extents of the Church, and that He must not act outside of that.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:24:28 PM by Jonathan » Logged
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 11:47:50 PM »

It's not a question of God not acting outside the Church, clearly he does, or none would be moved to repent and join her. The grace of the Holy Spirit permeates all creation: But it only indwells the baptized as St. Diadokos of Photiki teaches.

Be that as it may, my agony is that I see in History and in the Letters of some Saints, things such as St. Leo being led around by Theodoret. In fact, his Christology is identical to Theodoret. Read Theodorets Censure of St. Cyrils 12 chapters, and then Read St. Leos letter to the Monks of Palestine, who rejected the Tome, where he supposedly clarifies his position, and all he does is restate what the Tome says. There is a lot of Ambiguous language.

For Example, relating to the Comparison of St. Leo and Theodoret:

Against St. Cyrils 5th Anathema, Theodoret the crypto-Nestorian Writes:

Against V.— We assert that God the Word shared like ourselves in flesh and blood, and in immortal soul, on account of the union relating to them; but that God the Word was made flesh by any change we not only refuse to say, but accuse of impiety those who do, and it may be seen that this is contrary to the very terms laid down. For if the Word was changed into flesh He did not share with us in flesh and blood: but if He shared in flesh and blood He shared as being another besides them: and if the flesh is anything other besides Him, then He was not changed into flesh. While therefore we use the term sharing  we worship both Him that took and that which was taken as one Son. But we reckon the distinction of the natures. We do not object to the term man bearing God, as employed by many of the holy Fathers, one of whom is the great Basil, who uses this term in his argument to Amphilochius about the Holy Ghost, and in his interpretation of the fifty-ninth psalm. But we call Him man bearing God, not because He received some particular divine grace, but as possessing all the Godhead of the Son united. For thus says the blessed Paul in his interpretation, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

So many words that say nothing. Nestorius could have said all of the above. Notice How God the word Shares flesh and blood, not that he has taken them to himself and made them his very own by nature, so that in the incarnation of the Logos we say that the humanity assumed is natural to the Logos as is the divinity proper to him being Logos. So a union of two natures in a single Hypostasis that truly owns both natures as his own. But the one Subject is the Logos. The natures continue whole and undivided, distinguished only abstractly and in theory.

Now, an Extract from Leos Letter to the Monks of Palestine:

"Although therefore in our one Lord Jesus Christ, the true Son of God and man, the person of the Word and of the flesh is one, and both beings have their actions in common : yet we must understand the character of the acts themselves, and by the contemplation of sincere faith distinguish those to which the humility of His weakness is brought from those to which His sublime power is inclined: what it is that the flesh without the Word or the Word without the flesh does not do."

Again:

"Although therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is one, and the true Godhead and true Manhood in Him forms absolutely one and the same person, and the entirety of this union cannot be separated by any division, yet the exaltation wherewith “God exalted Him,” and “gave Him a name which excels every name,” we understand to belong to that form which needed to be enriched by this increase of glory."

So it is not the Logos made flesh that is exalted, but the flesh as a separate form. Once again, this goes against the 12 Anathemas of St. Cyril, especially anathema IV.

"If any one divides between two persons or hypostases the expressions used in the writings of evangelists and apostles, whether spoken by the saints of Christ or by Him about Himself, and applies the one as to a man considered properly apart from the Word of God, and the others as appropriate to the divine and the Word of God the Father alone, let him be anathema."

Again, Theodoret writing against anathema IV says: " Not then to God the Word does the ignorance belong, but to the form of the servant who at that time knew as much as the indwelling Godhead revealed. The same position may be maintained about other similar cases. How for instance could it be reasonable for God the Word to say to the Father, “Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not as I will but as You will”?  The absurdities which necessarily thence follow are not a few. First it follows that the Father and the Son are not of the same mind, and that the Father wishes one thing and the Son another, for He said, “Nevertheless not as I will but as You will.”

Was St. Leo a puppet or in collusion with Theodoret? I do not know. Clearly Leo anathematized Nestorius, but he seems to have no knowledge of St. Cyrils Mia Physis.

I do know that he wrote to Theodoret after Chalcedon describing it as their common victory against Dioscorus:

"While he [Dioscorus] tried to drive you out of your churches, he has cut off himself from fellowship with Christians. While he drags and drives many into agreement with error, he has stabbed his own soul with many a wound, a solitary convicted offender beyond all, and through all and for all, for he was the cause of all men's being accused."

But this is not true. Leo himself had written to Marcian that same year, 451, after having already complained about Dioscorus,

" It is not our duty to doubt Eutyches, whether he has erred because of his evil principles or not; we should not suspect the judgment of Dioscorus against Flavianus of blessed memory whether it was deceitful or not; but a number of bishops have repented and have made known to us the evil that has happened. They have asked to be forgiven for all their short-comings. Therefore, we should not investigate their faith, we should accept and forgive them.”

So the question is if St. Leo says it is not our duty to do these things...

Why does Chalcedon exist? I am not attempting to repudiate it, but be critical of it, as was Fr. Romanides.
Logged
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,042


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 11:58:14 PM »

--Subscribed--
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,768



« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 12:57:20 AM »

That is interesting, because according to what I have read, she was a sister to Emperor Theodosius and a nun who counseled her brother to be an adulterer and herself abandoned her vows in marrying the General Marcion. That is why I say depraved. I had no Idea we venerated her, I never would have assumed it. Is this True or False?

That we venerate her, that she lived in virginity even in marriage to St. Marcion, and that she was a champion of Orthodoxy at Ephesus I and Chalcedon is true. Whether she ever counseled her brother St. Theodosius II to be an adulterer, I don't know. I never read about that in the secular histories.

On the other hand, does the Orthodox Church venerate Theodosius II? That's not something I've heard before.

yes, on the 29th of July
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 01:05:01 AM »

For an OO viewpoint on Chalcedon, Fr. VC Samuels' The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined appears to be the most widely-available, thorough text. You might want to look into it if you haven't already, OP.
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 02:27:32 AM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 05:21:23 AM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  Wink
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 12:52:16 PM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  Wink

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 Wink
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,915



« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 01:18:45 PM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  Wink

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 Wink
Oh SNAP that was clever!  laugh
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
KostaC
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Chicago & the Diocese of Washington (Orthodox Church in America)
Posts: 192



« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 11:08:02 PM »

There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such.

I know that this is pretty irrelevant, but does anyone know about the thread that discusses the two Archbishops' feud? I've been trying to search for it out of curiosity, but with no results so far.
Logged

«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,402


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 11:31:54 AM »

There was a thread a little while ago here about the Greek and Latin archbishops of Athens facing off in some kind of 'holy water battle' or some such.

I know that this is pretty irrelevant, but does anyone know about the thread that discusses the two Archbishops' feud? I've been trying to search for it out of curiosity, but with no results so far.

Here you go. The default search sucks; you're better off entering "site:orthodoxchristianity.net -----" into Google. Replace the dashes with whatever you're looking for.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »

Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  Smiley
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 12:36:08 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 12:40:42 PM »

Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  Smiley

That's really good.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,049


"My god is greater."


« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2013, 01:13:11 PM »

Chalcedon's characterizations of HH St. Dioscorus are, predictably, of no value to me

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  Smiley


I'm a little dense. Was there a rumor that he had a mistress?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2013, 01:13:45 PM »

I'm a little dense. Was there a rumor that he had a mistress?

Yes, to the hilarity of the Alexandrians.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 01:16:21 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2013, 01:39:20 PM »

A contemporary Alexandrian said this about about Dioscorus and a certain Irene:

Quote
"Peace [Irene in Greek] be with all", said the bishop on his appearence.
How can she be with everyone if he alone has her within?"
(Anth. Graec. XVI:19)

"Εἰρήνη πάντεσσιν" ἐπίσκοπος εἶπεν ἐπελθών.
πῶς δύναται πᾶσιν, ἣν μόνος ἔνδον ἔχει;"

Quite witty. It always makes me laugh  Smiley


May he forgive me, but I laughed too.  This sort of humour has been preserved faithfully in our Church, along with the Orthodox faith.  Smiley
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,581


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2013, 04:34:02 PM »

it's interesting that nearly all the copts i know believe in the holy fire.
we also all believe in the appearance of saint mary at zeitoun.
i have met a muslim who saw her too, and remains deeply affected to this day by the experience.

i agree with the points above that God isn't limited by church boundaries.
i personally know about 2 miracles that have happened in a protestant setting, but that didn't stop me leaving the protestant churches.

rather than wondering whose side God is on, i should ask myself; 'am i on God's side?'
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2013, 05:18:48 PM »

Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,351


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2013, 08:32:38 PM »

Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
+1

It is a true blessing that I grew up in the faith BEFORE I learned of Chalcedon, which its deep study is a true faith shaker.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 08:35:19 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: The Church of Alexandria
Posts: 5,042


Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2013, 09:00:12 PM »

Chalcedon is an dark abyss. Those who peer to deeply into it are wont to fall in.
+1

It is a true blessing that I grew up in the faith BEFORE I learned of Chalcedon, which its deep study is a true faith shaker.
What makes you say that? Just curious.
Logged

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

I am currently not an active poster on the forum. Please forgive any offense I might have caused in the past. Thank you.
Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2013, 09:04:15 PM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  Wink

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 Wink

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.
Logged

TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,915



« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2013, 09:26:12 PM »

Actually, OO bishops do receive Holy Fire fron an EO Patriarch right after he leaves the Tomb.

Truly then is His Most Godly Beatitude merciful! In his love, he deigns to bring the Light of the Lord even unto the blind.  Wink

Quote
If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

Jn 9.41

 Wink

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.
Your only  151 posts in.  You'll get some.  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2013, 09:31:41 PM »

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.

Technically, the QQ wasn't mine, it was Jesus'.  Feel better?  Smiley
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,545


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2013, 09:47:57 PM »

I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. Grin
Logged

dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2013, 10:49:32 PM »

I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. Grin

You're Carmen Electra?
Logged

Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2013, 10:50:57 PM »

If I can't have a Quotable Quote, I can at least be responsible for setting them up.

Technically, the QQ wasn't mine, it was Jesus'.  Feel better?  Smiley

I'm not sure I do. It was one thing to be humbled by a simple man but by the Lord himself?

I can't imagine all that many things cut as deep.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2013, 10:52:10 PM »

I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. Grin

You're Carmen Electra?

That would be awesome!
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2013, 10:53:16 PM »

I'm not sure I do. It was one thing to be humbled by a simple man but by the Lord himself?

I can't imagine all that many things cut as deep.

You want to know one thing that cuts as deep, if not deeper?  Referring to me as a "simple man". 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Hawkeye
Дїѡни́сїй Качема́ческїй, Oнома́тодоѯологъ
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Old Belief?
Jurisdiction: Antiochian?
Posts: 641


"Петр [Мартюшев] говорит им: иду ловить рыбу."


« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2013, 11:20:11 PM »

I'm not sure I do. It was one thing to be humbled by a simple man but by the Lord himself?

I can't imagine all that many things cut as deep.

You want to know one thing that cuts as deep, if not deeper?  Referring to me as a "simple man". 

My apologies. Cheesy

I was afraid that dropping "simple" would have opened me up to more accusations of heresy. Life's hard enough as a schismatic name-worshipping Nestorian.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2013, 11:31:15 PM »

Life's hard enough as a schismatic name-worshipping Nestorian.

...whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,545


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2013, 07:05:13 PM »

I don't have a Quotable Quote yet, but I'm hopeful.  Someone quoted me in their sig line.  I'm quite pleased. Grin

You're Carmen Electra?

That would be awesome!

Yes, Carmen Electra is a catechumen of the OCA.  No, she does not plan on wearing a head covering, hence going to a modernist, liberal OCA parish.  Oh, my. Wink
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2013, 10:37:16 PM »

I'd like to inform the readership that I am now a catechumen in a modernist, liberal OCA parish where we don't allow headcoverings. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,654


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2013, 10:44:42 PM »

I'd like to inform the readership that I am now a catechumen in a modernist, liberal OCA parish where we don't allow headcoverings. 

"Allow" is such a judgmental term.....
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2013, 10:48:40 PM »

Look, I just converted about five minutes ago, I didn't have time to pick out the right word.  Tongue
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,915



« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2013, 11:01:01 PM »

I'd like to inform the readership that I am now a catechumen in a modernist, liberal OCA parish where we don't allow headcoverings.  
About time you left those Godless non anti-Chalcedonians.  laugh
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 11:01:31 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »

I'd like to inform the readership that I am now a catechumen in a modernist, liberal OCA parish where we don't allow headcoverings. 
LOL
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Gisasargavak
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church - Holy See of Echmiadzin
Posts: 137


Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:


« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2013, 11:32:08 PM »

Am I missing something here, or does the OP seem to be lacking in sincerity?

P.S. I would be careful when throwing terms around like "heretic" or any synonym thereof. Not only are these technical theological terms that have very specific meanings, but labeling an entire group of Christians "heretics" can verge on blasphemy. Also, evaluating one's own intentions regarding proving one's own view of doctrine true and another one's false is important. Am I truly concerned with Truth, or do I like to fashion myself as more intelligent or holy than others by doing so?

Fr. Tom Hopko has a great podcast on this very subject. I think it is called, "Our Use of Words".
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 11:36:29 PM by Gisasargavak » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,654


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2013, 11:50:27 PM »

I'd like to inform the readership that I am now a catechumen in a modernist, liberal OCA parish where we don't allow headcoverings. 
LOL

This just in. " Upon further review, the poster was not referring to Ms. Electra, but rather another, yet to be determined sig line."

Now what, Mor?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2013, 11:52:32 PM »

Now what, Mor?

Carmen's with me.  That's all anyone needs to know. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2013, 11:53:51 PM »

Am I missing something here, or does the OP seem to be lacking in sincerity?

I didn't get that sense, but perhaps I don't understand what you're getting at. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,545


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2013, 06:28:33 AM »

Now what, Mor?

Carmen's with me.  That's all anyone needs to know. 

She plans on growing a beard.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2013, 11:41:05 AM »

Liar. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,654


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2013, 01:13:58 PM »

Liar. 

See Mor' s "sig line two."
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,545


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2013, 01:50:08 PM »

He is right. angel  I am lying.  But if she did, would you reject her?  Would you delete your sig line? laugh
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2013, 05:09:50 PM »

There is no "if".  Carmen Electra is not and will not be growing a beard, but she's a huge fan of Mor. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2013, 06:01:54 PM »

Carmen Electra is so old she must be in a nursing home by now.
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2013, 06:05:33 PM »

Hahaha. She's 41. Stop making half the board or more feel old, Cyrillic.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2013, 06:06:25 PM »

Yeah, Cyrillic!  Stop making us feel old!
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2013, 06:17:49 PM »

Old people are supposedly wise, so if Carmen Electra approves of Mor he must be a good lad.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 06:18:16 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,541



« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2013, 06:46:48 PM »

Carmen Electra is so old she must be in a nursing home by now.

If Achronos were more clueful he cudda put more together than he has about me.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
KostaC
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Chicago & the Diocese of Washington (Orthodox Church in America)
Posts: 192



« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2013, 09:27:25 PM »


Here you go. The default search sucks; you're better off entering "site:orthodoxchristianity.net -----" into Google. Replace the dashes with whatever you're looking for.

Thank you kindly. I feel really bad, because not five minutes after I posted my request, I found it by just searching "Catholic Archbishop." I made you do all that work for nothing and I'm sorry about that.

Hahaha. She's 41. Stop making half the board or more feel old, Cyrillic.

Would I make you feel better if I told she's a bit more than half my age Grin?
Logged

«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2013, 12:47:28 AM »

NO, I do not lack in sincerity, I am trying to establish a real difference in faith between the Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedoninas. So far, I have none. I have lots of knee-jerk reactions from both sides, but when you hold the various fathers side-by-side for comparison: same faith. no difference. I don't know what that means, but it is both inspiring and intimidating.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,049


"My god is greater."


« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2013, 07:16:44 AM »

NO, I do not lack in sincerity, I am trying to establish a real difference in faith between the Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedoninas. So far, I have none. I have lots of knee-jerk reactions from both sides, but when you hold the various fathers side-by-side for comparison: same faith. no difference. I don't know what that means, but it is both inspiring and intimidating.

Can I just say here that the comma in the thread title, really, bothers, me?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2013, 07:34:16 AM »

but when you hold the various fathers side-by-side for comparison: same faith. no difference. I don't know what that means, but it is both inspiring and intimidating.

It wouldn't surprise me if this were the opinion of the majority on this board.
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2013, 09:26:17 AM »

My real question I suppose is if my non-chalcedonian buddies have any historical documents that point to the innocence of Dioscorus of the over the top claims made about him at Chalcedon. You will remember that at Chalcedon, there were priests from alexandria that sort of showed up out of the blue and accused him of pretty much ruining the entire city. The New Pharaoh they called him. So, I was wondering what the evidence to the contrary is? The fact that the inhabitants of Alexandria did not acept Proterius? Is there any documented evidence where he says he is being set up, or that those people are liars or what not? Also, any account of his being beaten by the soldiers as flavian was?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:27:57 AM by Daniel Smith » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2013, 10:26:20 AM »

You will remember that at Chalcedon, there were priests from alexandria that sort of showed up out of the blue and accused him of pretty much ruining the entire city. The New Pharaoh they called him.

Some is probably true. Dioscorus had at least one mistress, and, if we follow the interpretation of some scholars, there's even an epigram extant in which the size of his you-know-what was admired by Priapus himself. How did the Alexandrians know this? It's probably better that information like that is lost in time.

It is true that Dioscorus' rule was impopular with certain Alexandrians. There was a strong anti-Dioscorus faction in Alexandria that had support abroad. So that should tell you at least something.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 10:37:34 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2013, 08:58:24 PM »

How do we know Dioscorus had a mistress? Which historian records it?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,351


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2013, 01:34:58 AM »

Dear Daniel,

I think the problem is not so much there's proof as there is two sides to every story.  In the eyes of those who opposed him, they saw him as a tyrant.  In the eyes of those who loved him, they saw him as a second Athanasius, defending the faith against a world of tyrants.  The issue is not proof, but understanding the context of the issues at hand.  St. Athanasius for instance was accused of many things that lead to a certain character assassination of him, but luckily for him, he was able to defend himself in a council.  One of the most famous stories of the saint's shrewdness was having someone dress up like him and he look like a regular monk to confuse a prostitute who accused the saint of fathering her baby, where she ended up pointing at the man dressed up as patriarch who she thought was him.

However, in the fifth century, the situation did not end to satisfactorily appease both sides on the charges against St. Dioscorus.  So I'm not sure if you'll be able to find a definitive answer to your question on this regard.  Something else to keep in mind, St. Cyril, our common Church father and revered saint, was also called a Pharaoh by his enemies.  That is not to say that I'm condemning anyone who calls St. Dioscorus a Pharaoh a Nestorian heretic, but I'm only mentioning this well-known reference as an example of showing that this is not the first time bishops of Alexandria received this derogatory "title", and probably even happened to bishops before St. Cyril.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2013, 04:55:50 AM »

How do we know Dioscorus had a mistress? Which historian records it?

I could look up some of the sources (Gibbon mentioned it, and so did the Anth. Graec.) but what does it matter if he had a mistress? It doesn't change anything about the present.
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2013, 10:23:16 AM »

How do we know Dioscorus had a mistress? Which historian records it?

I could look up some of the sources (Gibbon mentioned it, and so did the Anth. Graec.) but what does it matter if he had a mistress? It doesn't change anything about the present.

It doesn't, and "shadiness" at one or another point in one's life hasn't been a significant impediment to holiness, but I'd still be interested.  I don't doubt you, because you live and breathe in antiquity, and "the present" for you may be the 6th century, but I'm over here in the 21st, and you're the first person I've ever heard this from.  Smiley
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,049


"My god is greater."


« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2013, 10:35:55 AM »

Irene's stained blue toga, please.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2013, 10:37:09 AM »

Naughty, naughty!
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2013, 10:38:54 AM »

"...and that the infamous Pansophia, or Irene, was publicly entertained as the concubine of the patriarch. (Decline and Fall XLVII:3, Gibbons)"

Then there are the Acts of Chalcedon which support the accusation (Labbe and Cossart, Concilia, tom. IV. p. 1276.) and the anonymous epigram by an Alexandrian (Anthologia Graeca XVI:19) confirm it. I'm in a hurry so there are probably more sources, but this will have to do for now.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:24:31 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Daniel Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 121


« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2013, 12:39:33 AM »

Hmmmm...........  Roll Eyes


So an unconfirmed third hand account, the word of his detractors, and an anonymous inscription? Man, if we went by that, we would have found St. Athanasius and Adulterer, and St. Cyril a murderer! lol.

Even Theodoret at least acknowledged that he was renowned for his modesty. I think that is the opposite of fornication...

"Among many forms of virtue by which we hear that your holiness is adorned (for all men's ears are filled by the flying fame of your glory, which speeds in all directions) special praise is unanimously given to your modesty, a characteristic of which our Lord in His law has given Himself as an example, saying, 'Learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart;'"

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2707060.htm
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,654


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2013, 09:36:47 AM »

That's the thing about history, it tends to be written by those who prevail. And often, when recounting the role of female figures of the past, it is written as "his"story.....
Logged
Nikolaos Greek
Last among equals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Greece
Posts: 203



« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2013, 05:05:09 PM »

Holy fire is one of the proofs that Eastern orthodoxy is true...
Logged

God is Love.
Ό Θεός ἀγάπη ἐστί.
There is no luck, there is no fate. There are always two ways. One is God's and one is devil's. And in each step of your life you have to pick one, always.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,612


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »

Even Theodoret at least acknowledged that he was renowned for his modesty. I think that is the opposite of fornication...

"Among many forms of virtue by which we hear that your holiness is adorned (for all men's ears are filled by the flying fame of your glory, which speeds in all directions) special praise is unanimously given to your modesty, a characteristic of which our Lord in His law has given Himself as an example, saying, 'Learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart;'"

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2707060.htm

"To the most religious and beloved of God, fellow minister Nestorius, Cyril sends greeting in the Lord."

-St. Cyril's Second Letter to Nestorius

It proves nothing

So an unconfirmed third hand account, the word of his detractors, and an anonymous inscription? Man, if we went by that, we would have found St. Athanasius and Adulterer, and St. Cyril a murderer! lol.

Find me one (1) source from the fifth century that alleges that St. Cyril murdered Hypatia. I went through all of them and no source from that period made such a claim.

St. Athanasius cleared his name in court.

What kind of evidence would suffice? Why would we even care whether Dioscorus had a mistress?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 05:36:58 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,967


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2013, 06:24:47 PM »

Holy fire is one of the proofs that Eastern orthodoxy is true...

What are the others? 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,351


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2013, 11:41:01 PM »


Find me one (1) source from the fifth century that alleges that St. Cyril murdered Hypatia.

An apparition of Hypatia to a modern atheist author of some anti-religion novel.  Tongue
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Remnkemi
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 123


« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »

Even Theodoret at least acknowledged that he was renowned for his modesty. I think that is the opposite of fornication...

"Among many forms of virtue by which we hear that your holiness is adorned (for all men's ears are filled by the flying fame of your glory, which speeds in all directions) special praise is unanimously given to your modesty, a characteristic of which our Lord in His law has given Himself as an example, saying, 'Learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart;'"

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2707060.htm

"To the most religious and beloved of God, fellow minister Nestorius, Cyril sends greeting in the Lord."

-St. Cyril's Second Letter to Nestorius

It proves nothing
Not exactly. It shows that Cyril was willing to address Nestorius as a fellow minister at one point in time in the interest of reconciliation. Then at Ephesus, when this letter was read, Nestorius had proven himself unreconcilable. You have to take all evidence in the context at hand, as minasoliman said. Cyril's early polite salutation to Nestorius is not the same as Theodoret's pretentious praise of Dioscorus.


So an unconfirmed third hand account, the word of his detractors, and an anonymous inscription? Man, if we went by that, we would have found St. Athanasius and Adulterer, and St. Cyril a murderer! lol.

Find me one (1) source from the fifth century that alleges that St. Cyril murdered Hypatia. I went through all of them and no source from that period made such a claim.[/quote]
So that should be sufficient to show St Cyril did not murder Hypatia. The same lack of evidence should be sufficient to show St Dioscorus did not do the things he was accused of.

Quote
St. Athanasius cleared his name in court.
Did he? He was exiled 5 times and spent most of his 46 episcopal years in hiding. I don't think this qualifies as clearing his name. His name was cleared posthumously. Other innocent victims do not have the same posthumous success.

Quote
What kind of evidence would suffice?
None. Even Jesus Christ couldn't clear his name before the Sanhedrin. In Christ's trial there was no evidence and yet he was falsely accused.

[quote Why would we even care whether Dioscorus had a mistress?
[/quote]
We care because if Dioscorus was condemned for false accusations, like adultery, murder, and riot-causing violence, then it shows Chalcedon did not have Christian intentions to begin with, much less jurisdictional authority.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,351


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2013, 04:22:44 PM »

Quote
We care because if Dioscorus was condemned for false accusations, like adultery, murder, and riot-causing violence, then it shows Chalcedon did not have Christian intentions to begin with, much less jurisdictional authority.

I'm going to jump in first and make note that remarks like these might make your post get moved to the private forums.  Let's try to say something less inflammatory like, "it shows that Chalcedon seemed unfair to us".  But if we are going to say "did not have Christian intentions", then this invites unnecessary inflammatory debate, and this makes this whole thread even subject to being moved to the private forum.

So if you want to keep this thread public, let's offer more inviting language.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:23:32 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Remnkemi
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 123


« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2013, 07:22:47 PM »

My apologies. I did not interpret my words in that way. I certainly don't want to hijack the thread or move it unnecessarily.
Logged
Tags: Holy  Fire  Oriental  Pascha  legitimate Carmen Electra is old  orthodox  Armenian  Syriac Holy Fire 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.237 seconds with 116 queries.