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Author Topic: Sacrament Validity  (Read 3471 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ian Lazarus
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« on: February 15, 2005, 07:44:11 PM »

Dear Friends:

I am posting this out of my own curiosity, and not out of any ill spirit or wanting of repetition.  Do the Eastern Orhtodox and the Oriental Orthodox proclaim eachother's sacraments valid, and refain from taking one anothers sacraments because of the disagreement over Chalecedon, and therfore cannot proclaim communal union one with another because if it? If a thread such as this exhist, please direct me thereto.  I thank you most humbly.


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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2005, 07:50:13 PM »

I think the OO largely regard EO sacraments as valid; the EO reciprocating that view are probably much less, for one reason or the other.  Generally, I don't see any intercommuning, although it is allowed in certain circumstances by certain Churches. 
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 08:23:38 PM »

I think the OO largely regard EO sacraments as valid; the EO reciprocating that view are probably much less, for one reason or the other. Generally, I don't see any intercommuning, although it is allowed in certain circumstances by certain Churches.

Has this always been so, or is this a more recent development?  I know that intercommuning is not allowed, at least here in the states.  I am E O (blood type or religious jurisdiction?  You decide! Grin)  Under the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America ( I know, we get alot of flak), and we have visitors from both the Indian and the Ethiopian Tewehido (sorry if I misspelled that) Orthodox Churches at times.  They give the reverences durring the Great Entrance as the Elements pass but do not themsleves partake.  Its the reason I bought it up. 

I have head that in the recent past there have been circumstances wherein parishes in the Middle east have been allowed to intercommune.  I know this only because I read an article wherein one of the monks on Mt. Athos was criticising the move.  Any confirmation on that?


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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 08:29:09 PM »

The Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch allow intercommunion; this is a recent development, as is (I presume) the view I posted above, which has come about through ecumenical dialogue between our Churches. 

Technically, Orthodox Indians and Ethiopians wouldn't be allowed by any EO Church to receive the sacraments, as there are no such agreements involving them.  Individual priests/bishops could make a judgement call on a case by case basis, I presume.  Either your OO "parishioners" did not get that permission upon asking, or they didn't bother to ask.  I can't say anything about that.   
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 08:30:57 PM »

Ian,

In some areas there are agreements to provide pastoral care for people who may not have their own churches available. Even here in the US some OOs receive pastoral care from EO parishes if they don't have their own (OO) parishes.

T
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 11:42:57 PM »

Both Antiochian Churches I attended (the one I got chrismated at and the one I got married at) communed Non-Chalcedonians. And Pat. Ignatius IV himself told his clergy to do this, so it's not just a "minor lapse by some local clergy". The so-called "pastoral reason" for them communing at one Church was--I found out after asking the priest himself--that it was too much of a hassel for the Non-Chalcedonian family to wake up the family and get them to their nearest Church, which was about an hour and a half drive away. So with one hand they pull the perfectly pious and perhaps even orthodox, but nonetheless non-Orthodox, people towards them; and with the other hand they push away Orthodox Christians. They call this love; I call it ecumenism. FWIW, I've been told that this sort of thing is not uncommon in parishes in the Holy Land, and has been going on for well over a thousand years; I don't know the truth (or extent) of that, but whatever the case, giving it an official hierarchical approval is somewhat... unfortunate.
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2005, 12:17:24 AM »

Hey Mor Ephrem, how is it going... I have been doing a lot during my semester at school so for the most part work and school is pretty much what I have to worry about. Sorry for not responding quickly enough. Huh

To eleviate any problems with communion with each other churches in the future of such hectic and irreneous dismay on both sides of the church. Why not have an OO parent have their newborn child baptised in an EO church with EO godparents as their witnesses. HEY why not everyone  jump over the cliff? Angry
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2005, 01:34:52 AM »

The Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch allow intercommunion; this is a recent development, as is (I presume) the view I posted above, which has come about through ecumenical dialogue between our Churches.

Technically, Orthodox Indians and Ethiopians wouldn't be allowed by any EO Church to receive the sacraments, as there are no such agreements involving them. Individual priests/bishops could make a judgement call on a case by case basis, I presume. Either your OO "parishioners" did not get that permission upon asking, or they didn't bother to ask. I can't say anything about that.

In this case, it may be simply visiting the parish or visiting relatives who have made the church their home.  There is an Malankara Chruch, an Armenian Chruch, an Ethiopian Tewehido Church, and a Coptic Church or two where I live.  The youth of the Indian chruch cam just to check out "the lay of the land" and see how our service differed from theirs.  Mostly these were college students (does the Indian church have something like an OCF?) wanting some more insight and looking to dialogue with the youth of our church (which was cool).  Whatever the case for visiting, they did not partake of the body and blood.

Tanks for the response, Mor. Smiley

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2005, 01:37:43 AM »

Both Antiochian Churches I attended (the one I got chrismated at and the one I got married at) communed Non-Chalcedonians. And Pat. Ignatius IV himself told his clergy to do this, so it's not just a "minor lapse by some local clergy". The so-called "pastoral reason" for them communing at one Church was--I found out after asking the priest himself--that it was too much of a hassel for the Non-Chalcedonian family to wake up the family and get them to their nearest Church, which was about an hour and a half drive away. So with one hand they pull the perfectly pious and perhaps even orthodox, but nonetheless non-Orthodox, people towards them; and with the other hand they push away Orthodox Christians. They call this love; I call it ecumenism. FWIW, I've been told that this sort of thing is not uncommon in parishes in the Holy Land, and has been going on for well over a thousand years; I don't know the truth (or extent) of that, but whatever the case, giving it an official hierarchical approval is somewhat... unfortunate.

How did they push away Orthodox Christians?

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2005, 03:14:11 AM »



How did they push away Orthodox Christians?

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

I think he was being metaphorical.
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2005, 03:28:46 AM »

Relationships with the Eastern (Chalcedonian) Orthodox Churches
Among all Christian Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are closer to the Oriental Churches in spirituality, doctrine, and in historical experience. Dialogue with this family of Churches has the potential to be the most fruitful.

Unofficial consultations were held in Aarhus (Denmark) in 1964 and in Bristol (England) in 1967, attended by leading theologians from the two sides; there were further meetings in Geneva (1970) and Addis Abbaba (1971). The results were unexpectedly positive. As Bishop Timothy Kallistos Ware of Dioklea states in his book, The Orthodox Church (1993), it became clear that on the basic question which had led historically to the division—the doctrine of the person of Christ—there is in fact no real disagreement. The divergence, it was stated in Aarhus, lies only on the level of phraseology. The delegates concluded, 'We recognize in each other the one Orthodox faith of the Church... On the essence of the Christological dogma we found ourselves in full agreement.' In the words of the Bristol consultation, 'Some of us affirm two natures, wills and energies hypostatically united in the one Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us affirm one united divine-human nature, will and energy in the same Christ. But both sides speak of a union without confusion, without change, without divisions, without separation.' The four adverbs belong to our common tradition. Both affirm the dynamic permanence of the Godhead and the Manhood, with all their natural properties and faculties, in the one Christ.'

These four unofficial conversations during 1964-1971 were followed up by the convening of an official Joint Commission representing the two Church families: this met in Geneva in 1985, at Amba Bishoy monastery in Egypt in 1989, in Geneva in 1990, and for a fourth time in 1993. On the matter of the different christological formulations, which had been a stumbling block in the past, there was agreement that the underlying understanding of the Incarnation was the same, even though each side had its own preferred formula, when speaking of one or two "natures". The doctrinal agreements reached at the unofficial consultations were reaffirmed, and at the end of the third meeting in 1990, it was recommended that each side should now revoke all anathemas and condemnations issues in the past against the other. The fourth meeting (1993) discussed how in practice this might be done, and the proposal reached was that the anathemas and condemnations should be lifted "unanimously and simultaneously by the Heads of all the Churches of both sides, through signing of an appropriate ecclesiastical Act, the content of which will include acknowledgement from each side that the other one is Orthodox in all respects". In the view of the participants, once the anathemas have been lifted, this "should imply that restoration of full communion for both sides is to be immediately implemented" (Brock et al, 2001).

Difficulties still remain, for not everyone on the two sides is equally positive about the dialogue: there are some in Greece, for example, who continue to regard the Oriental Orthodox as 'Monophysite heretics', just as there are some Non-Chalcedonians who continue to regard Chalcedon and the Tome of Leo as 'Nestorian'. But the official view of both families of Churches was clearly expressed at the 1989 meeting: 'As two families of Orthodox Churches long out of communion with each other, we now pray and trust in God to restore that communion on the basis of the apostolic faith of the undivided Church of the first centuries which we confess in our common creed.' (Ware, 1993).

Other meetings aimed at bringing the two families of Churches closer together have also taken place, such as that between the two Youth Movements in May 1991, and the meeting of different Patriarchs of the Middle East in 1987 and 1991 (the specified aim of the second of these was "to give concrete expression of the close fellowship between the two Churches"). As a result of the second meeting, on 22nd July 1991, between Patriarch Ignatius Zakka I and Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim a number of important decisions were published in a statement (http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/19911112SOCRumOrthStmt.html). (Brock et al, 2001).
Source: http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/index.html

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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2005, 09:59:24 AM »

So with one hand they pull the perfectly pious and perhaps even orthodox, but nonetheless non-Orthodox, people towards them; and with the other hand they push away Orthodox Christians. They call this love; I call it ecumenism

The question was simply whether or not we consider one another's sacraments to be valid.  I will ask respectfully that you not make comments which could cause this to degenerate into a discussion about whether or not we are Orthodox.  Words such as those quoted above almost scream for a rebuttal by Oriental Orthodox posters.
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2005, 10:30:34 AM »

Sorry, I was just trying to respond to the following part of the original post:

Quote
refain from taking one anothers sacraments because of the disagreement over Chalecedon,

Obviously the answer is: no, in some EO jurisdictions the disagreement over Chalcedon does not prevent intercommunion. As someone who ended up leaving a jurisdiction mainly because of this issue, I guess I might take the subject a little too personally. I tried to be as moderate as possible, but I guess I failed. I apologize for my comments being offensive.
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2005, 10:45:10 AM »


No problem Paradosis, and no hard feelings.  I just don't want another flame war over Chalcedon to erupt in this particular folder.  Of course, we can debate it to our hearts content in the Free-For-All section.  FWIW, while we obviously disagree over Chalcedon, I certainly respect your point of view, and I admire the stand you are taking.
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2005, 10:55:06 AM »

They call this love; I call it ecumenism...whatever the case, giving it an official hierarchical approval is somewhat... unfortunate.

Yeah, I agree; it's kind of a pastoral vs. ecclesiological quagmire there in the Middle East; on the one hand, there's lots of crap being given from the Syrian muslim side towards the Christians, so the faithful pretty much think, "Hey!  You're Arab; I'm Arab!  You're Christian; I'm Christian!  Let's commune!"  Pastorally, there's the "strength in numbers" bit.  (This is all paraphrased from stuff my Lebanese godfather has told me).

Ecclesiologically, though...they ain't us.  Neither are the Melekites (sp?).  And that's a dangerous thing to open those doors, because precedents get set that perhaps shouldn't... Lips Sealed

As for sacramental validity...whew...which view you wanna take?  The "no grace WHATSOEVER ouside the Church" view, or the "grace by degrees" view?  That'd kinda answer your question...I say kinda, 'cause both views have existed side-by-side in "Byzantine Orthodoxy" since, like, the 300s....
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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2005, 11:43:59 AM »

So it seems, Ian Lazarus, that the answer to your question depends greatly upon the jurisdiction to which one belongs, and the pastoral decisions of individual priests and their bishops.

I hope that your question has been answered. If the thread degenrates into a discussion about whether or not the OO are inside or outside the Church, according to the views of some among the Byzantines, I will lock it. (Which would be a first! I've never used my moderator powers before! Smiley )

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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2005, 11:54:11 AM »

If the thread degenrates into a discussion about whether or not the OO are inside or outside the Church, according to the views of some among the Byzantines, I will lock it. (Which would be a first! I've never used my moderator powers before! Smiley )

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Nick,

Indeed, use your powers to lock this thread if it comes to that.

But, before you do that give us an example of good behavior and do what another moderator asked you to do. Stop using the term "uniate" which many find offensive. You did not edit it from your posts as asked and you used it again. Not a good example.

Further when you referred to imaginary EOs who are former OOs in India you used the term apostate.

What is to be made of all that?

TonyS

(not a Uniate for you by the way, nor an apostate from the OO to the EO)
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2005, 12:05:04 PM »

I would say the grace by degree theory has not existed since the 300's, but rather the theory that if someone has the form of a sacrament from a heretical church, it can be sanctified and filled in by chrismation.  I see no patristic writings that accept grace in non-Orthodox Churches, while seeing patristic canons which allow for reception by means other than baptism.  But some would say that I am following the "innovation" of St Nikodemos Wink (i.e. some people say the theory of economy that I just laid out is an innovation itself. But I don't agree with them).

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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2005, 12:42:48 PM »


But, before you do that give us an example of good behavior and do what another moderator asked you to do. Stop using the term "uniate" which many find offensive. You did not edit it from your posts as asked and you used it again. Not a good example.

Further when you referred to imaginary EOs who are former OOs in India you used the term apostate.



TonyS,

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone. I honestly didn't know that Uniate was an offensive term. I will edit it. What do you suggest I change it to? Eastern Catholic maybe?

In the future, however, please get your facts straight before you take it upon yourself to reprimand someone. I used the term Uniate once, with the qualifying statement that it was for the lack of a better term. Phil asked another poster (Paul, not me) to edit the term "uniate" from his posts. I only used the term ONCE because I did not know what the appropriate inoffensive term should be. No one ever asked me to change it until now.

As to the term apostate, I always thought that apostasy was defined as abandoning one's former communion or religious allegience. I used the term in this sense. To me, it does not have a pejorative tone. I would say that an EO who became OO could be called an apostate as well. Or a Catholic who became a Baptist. What is the problem with this term?  Am I using it incorrectly?
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2005, 01:20:19 PM »



TonyS,

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone. I honestly didn't know that Uniate was an offensive term. I will edit it. What do you suggest I change it to? Eastern Catholic maybe?

In the future, however, please get your facts straight before you take it upon yourself to reprimand someone. I used the term Uniate once, with the qualifying statement that it was for the lack of a better term. Phil asked another poster (Paul, not me) to edit the term "uniate" from his posts. I only used the term ONCE because I did not know what the appropriate inoffensive term should be. No one ever asked me to change it until now.

As to the term apostate, I always thought that apostasy was defined as abandoning one's former communion or religious allegience. I used the term in this sense. To me, it does not have a pejorative tone. I would say that an EO who became OO could be called an apostate as well. Or a Catholic who became a Baptist. What is the problem with this term? Am I using it incorrectly?

Nick,

I did confuse you with another poster, for that I apologize. I think what confused me is that you (IIRC) used "uniate" after Mor reprimanded another poster for using it.

Perhaps I will be labled an ecumenist, or something else, but generallly "Monophysite" and "Uniate" and other such terms are not used on this board and others similar to it.

Eastern Catholics like to be called that, Eastern Catholics, it may be vague but that is better than the usually derogatory "uniate." Oriental Orthodox like to be called that, not "Monophysites." Pre-Chalcedonian seems OK as it situates the groups historically, I have heard some of my acquaintances say they were called anti-Chalcedonians. No doubt they were, but that type of language is not useful.

I think others here have posted on the use of apostate. To call someone who leaves one Christain group for another, especially another group dating from apostolic times, an apostate is wrong. That was also pointed out. Even when EOs (of which I am one) used that term to refer to an EC (that would be Eastern Catholic) who was formerly EO, it was the wrong term. Even if it is not technically wrong, it is uncharitable.

I challenge you t re-consider "To me, it does not have a pejorative tone." My mom's family is from the Southern US, I was born there and grew up there. A certain level of vocabulary was used for decades, maybe centuries, until it came to represent something hateful and hurtful. Whatever the older, original intent was, even older people stopped using those words as people found them distressing.

T
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2005, 01:39:26 PM »

I think you all and apologize if i got into something sticky here.  But i suppose its been sticky fro the past 1500 years or so, so why would I think it would be less so now?  I'm not a "flowers and peace sign" kind of guy, thinking that the world can or could ever be changed by forming a sing along group and having people dance around the world (dont know of people out there actually like Prince, or can do the splits as well as he can Roll Eyes).  I know this is a big, unhealed wound that needs carefull attetion to heal.  It's good to see that steps are being made in that direction.  I think we all want that.  Bye and by, Lord...........Bye and bye..............  Thanks for your patience and your answers.


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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2005, 02:01:47 PM »


I did confuse you with another poster, for that I apologize. I think what confused me is that you (IIRC) used "uniate" after Mor reprimanded another poster for using it.


No harm done! Smiley


Eastern Catholics like to be called that, Eastern Catholics, it may be vague but that is better than the usually derogatory "uniate."
 

Then that is what I will call them from now on. I think the confusion arose from the fact that I was referring to the OO Armenians in Jerusalemm, and trying to articulate the fact that they were never under the Patriarch of Constantinople, so they couldn't be compared to Eastern Catholics who left the Orthodox Church and placed themselves under Rome.


I think others here have posted on the use of apostate.


I was not aware of these threads. If possible, could you tell me what forum they are in so I could search for them, or even provide a link for me?


I challenge you t re-consider "To me, it does not have a pejorative tone."


Okay, that is fair. I really didn't mean to offend anyone.
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2005, 04:05:06 PM »

I was not aware of these threads.  If possible, could you tell me what forum they are in so I could search for them, or even provide a link for me?
Nick,

I ran a search on this site for "apostate."  Here is one link that discusses some of the terminology as found in St. Basil:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,1614.0.html
To deny the divinity of Christ apparently makes on a heretic but not an apostate.  Recall Julian?  He is called apostate because he tried to re-establish paganism.  He renounced Christianity. 

" Julian seems to have given up actual Christian belief before his acclamation as emperor and was a practitioner of more traditional Greco-Roman religious beliefs, in particular, a follower of  certain late antique Platonist philosophers who were especially adept at theurgy as was noted earlier.   In fact Julian himself spoke of his conversion to Neo-Platonism in a letter to the Alexandrians written in 363.   He stated that he had abandoned Christianity when he was twenty years old and been an adherent of the traditional Greco-Roman deities for the twelve years prior to writing this letter."

from:
http://www.roman-emperors.org/julian.htm

To speak of an OO or EO moving to another's Church as an apostate means to equate him/her with Julian?  That seems a bit much. 

BTW, I don't think I have ever heard of OO being called "uniates." 

T
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2005, 04:31:37 PM »


Thanks for the links!  I will read up on it.  I do recall the situation of Emperor Julian, but I did not think that this was the only sense in which the term could be used.  Still, if it causes offense, then I will not use it.  Thanks.

As to OO "uniates", someone was comparing the new Eastern Catholic "Catholicos" in India with the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople.  I was saying that the comparison was invalid because the Armenians were never under Constantinople, while the Catholics in southern India were once part of the indigenous Orthodox Church.  It was in this context that the term "uniate" came up, as in the Armenians cannot be said to be such.  I know it is convoluted, but so is the situation we were discussing.
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2005, 05:56:17 PM »

Once again:

To eleviate any problems with communion with each other churches in the future of such hectic and irreneous dismay on both sides of the church that will not have re-uniification until 500 years. Why not have an OO parent have their newborn child baptised in an EO church with EO godparents as their witnesses. HEY why not everyone jump over the cliff? Angry

I feek like I aggravate Antonious with my comments each time I reply. But hey this one person's opinion
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2005, 06:19:22 PM »

Once again:

To eleviate any problems with communion with each other churches in the future of such hectic and irreneous dismay on both sides of the church that will not have re-uniification until 500 years. Why not have an OO parent have their newborn child baptised in an EO church with EO godparents as their witnesses. HEY why not everyone jump over the cliff? Angry

I feek like I aggravate Antonious with my comments each time I reply. But hey this one person's opinion


Well, you are aggravating me.  But, that is mostly because I can't read your posts.  You may wanna run them through a spell check before you post.  I presume that with "eleviate" you mean alleviate and with "irreneous" you mean erroneous.  Eleviate looks like elevate (to raise) and irreneous like irenic (peaceful) but that doesn't seem to work.   

Whom exactly are you mocking here?

And, we don't have witnesses in baptism (well perhaps in your church not in mine) we have sponsors.
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2005, 07:24:01 PM »

alexp4uni - Aggravating me?  Ummm...So far I have dialogued with TonyS, Ian Lazarus, and Paradosis in this thread.  To be honest, I was only vaguely aware of your presence.  I don't remember ever having a conversation with you.  Now that you've "made me look" by throwing my name out there, I can't make sense of your garbled posts.  What are you talking about, man?
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2005, 10:34:55 PM »

alexp4uni - Aggravating me? Ummm...So far I have dialogued with TonyS, Ian Lazarus, and Paradosis in this thread. To be honest, I was only vaguely aware of your presence. I don't remember ever having a conversation with you. Now that you've "made me look" by throwing my name out there, I can't make sense of your garbled posts. What are you talking about, man?

Antonious the only time we ever talked or you talked was when I made a comment of EO parishes in India in the post of Rome making a parallel Catholicose with the Syro- churches. you felt it was a cheap shot when I just told people to pray for the humanitarian crisis this includes their church because the West Bengalis dont know the situation of OO and EO.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5379.0.html

They live in isolation and with an Orthodox church they are free from burdens of their past life. They are happy with one another. That's all I wanted to say. But when I made my comment in THIS post that was quick and to ease the tensions from such hectic and complicated issue, it was just a joke. It apparently didn't sink in well, you and TonyS wanted to correct me when I made a quick reply. As for the spelling errors I should've checked and I'll keep that in mind. BTW while I was doing this post on my Word prograns my spell check had TonyS in error as well Nikolas' last names spelled wrong, it should be Nicolas, Nicholas, or just ignore. But realize I don't like going to OO parishes for many varied reason. I stopped going after high school

But for the most part both sides have no full communion as discussed. When prayers are in Eastern churches they say "Send your light with the llight of grace to all apostates from the Faith and those who in stay in heresies and draw them to Thyself and unite once again with the True, Apostolic Church" The prayers in monks in Mount athos say this is for people who have departed from the EO church. But it's kinda strange that when EO services on First Sunday of Lent they state anathemas on apostates and heretics. It is an unfortunate woe that people feel that they have commune EO and OO from the decision of one parish. That's why it should be re-discussed ny Theologains again for for further inquiry on what is proper procedure.
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2005, 11:31:21 PM »



Antonious the only time we ever talked or you talked was when I made a comment of EO parishes in India in the post of Rome making a parallel Catholicose with the Syro- churches. you felt it was a cheap shot when I just told people to pray for the humanitarian crisis this includes their church because the West Bengalis dont know the situation of OO and EO.

It had nothing to do with the topic.  If it wasn't a cheap shot, what was it? 

Quote
But realize I don't like going to OO parishes for many varied reason. I stopped going after high school

Why?  Because people here didn't get your "joke" and tried to correct you?  You'll have to deal with a lot worse than that, whatever Church you leave/join. 
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2005, 09:56:56 AM »


I don't want to get into an argument with you Alex, but you really should work on your reading comprehension skills as well. The only time I ever used the term "cheap shot" was when Mor told me about certain EO missionaries saying they were bringing Orthodoxy back to India for the first time in a thousand years, or something like that. Your posts never "aggravated" me, because I never payed that much attention to them. If anything, they confused me.  The first and only time I addressed you (until you called my name out of the blue) was when you mentioned the EP. I was curious as to whether or not you meant the Ecumenical Patriarch. Because of the way you articulate yourself in writing, I couldn't be sure.

And now you're telling me my name is spelled wrong? You do realize that it can be spelled that way, right? Or was that another attempt at humor?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 10:24:56 AM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

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