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Author Topic: The mass of Paul VI  (Read 6418 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2013, 01:29:21 AM »

No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
We are extremely good at expectorating at the Devil.

You mean you think happy thoughts of Paschas gone by, light and aim a candle (or trikiria if a Bishop) and shout "Expecto Patronum?"
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« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »

How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.

Have you checked this one? http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/
St. Martin of Tours - their website looks pretty good and they have Mass in the Extraordinary Form on a regular basis.
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« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2013, 11:31:36 AM »

Mass in the extraordinary form?HuhHuhHuh?? Is this code for something bizarre?
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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2013, 12:20:16 PM »

Mass in the extraordinary form?HuhHuhHuh?? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.
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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2013, 04:14:45 PM »

Mass in the extraordinary form?HuhHuhHuh?? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.

Why they just don't call them "old Mass" and "new Mass" I'll never know.
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2013, 04:49:04 PM »

How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.

Have you checked this one? http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/
St. Martin of Tours - their website looks pretty good and they have Mass in the Extraordinary Form on a regular basis.

That's actually the parish I was referring to. Looks like they removed the photo.

It's pretty nice. They have a few Byzantine style icons, no instruments other than an organ, the preaching was pretty good the few times I went.

If only I could forget Orthodoxy and go back to Rome.
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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »

If only I could forget Orthodoxy and go back to Rome.

That feeling might wither away over time. I went to a Tridentine mass few weeks back and was suprised how used I had got to some Byzantine elements over the years despite initial problems with getting used to the Byzantine services. It was weird to attend a church without iconostasis and with organs for starters.
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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2013, 07:25:50 PM »

Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2013, 07:29:55 PM »

Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 

Now they have no excuse.
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« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2013, 10:14:38 PM »

Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2013, 10:34:45 PM »

Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.

You are also posting on an internet board.
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« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2013, 10:37:17 PM »

Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.

You are also posting on an internet board.

Good point.
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« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2013, 10:41:32 PM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
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« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2013, 10:47:12 PM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.
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« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2013, 10:49:37 PM »

I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.
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« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2013, 10:58:15 PM »

I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.

I suppose it depends on how much of a difference there was, and how sharp of a contrast. If you go from, say Latin Mass, to giant walking Jesus puppets with dancing people in the sanctuary, running about sprinkling holy water like people are catching fire, and using Kool-Aid pitchers for cruets, they will notice a difference. Sadly, I'm seen exactly that kind of Mass.
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« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2013, 11:05:03 PM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.

I go back and forth on it.  On the one hand, I appreciate pregnant silence, but on the other hand it's fairly short-lived, frequently punctuated by bell-ringing, and, if at a sung Mass, is of even shorter duration.  I think it's an interesting development, considering no other Liturgy has an entirely silent anaphora, and how much importance the RC's placed on the words of institution.  The words which effect transubstantiation are said silently, but the actions are dramatised, which is almost the opposite of what the East does.  I also wonder how "safe" it is: at least with the ad libbing that often happens with the Mass texts nowadays, you can hear it and know it's wrong, but who's to say that a priest reciting a silent canon is actually reciting the canon?  And it was clearly meant to be recited audibly.  

What I really can't get used to is Low Mass.  At least where I go, the silent parts are silent, the audible parts are mumbled, and the Mass is drowned out by the blessed babbling of children and the congregants shifting in their creaking pews and kneelers.  The homily and the Leonine Prayers are the only thing you can hear.  I don't know why the priests can't read the audible parts louder?  The silent canon helps confirm the idea that the Liturgy ought to be mostly silent, if not in theory then in practice.  High Mass, on the other hand, is a sublime experience, at least equal to all the Eastern Liturgies and even better than one or two of them IMO (comparing an average RC parish Mass to an average EO/OO parish Liturgy).  I want to like Low Mass, but no matter how often I attend, I can't.        
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« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2013, 11:07:04 PM »

I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.

I suppose it depends on how much of a difference there was, and how sharp of a contrast. If you go from, say Latin Mass, to giant walking Jesus puppets with dancing people in the sanctuary, running about sprinkling holy water like people are catching fire, and using Kool-Aid pitchers for cruets, they will notice a difference. Sadly, I'm seen exactly that kind of Mass.
Nah, these were just genteel Catholics from Mobile who attended a quiet low Mass in an old church. They'd have possibly gotten violent if the creepy puppets walked in.
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« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2013, 11:13:05 PM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.

I go back and forth on it.  On the one hand, I appreciate pregnant silence, but on the other hand it's fairly short-lived, frequently punctuated by bell-ringing, and, if at a sung Mass, is of even shorter duration.  I think it's an interesting development, considering no other Liturgy has an entirely silent anaphora, and how much importance the RC's placed on the words of institution.  The words which effect transubstantiation are said silently, but the actions are dramatised, which is almost the opposite of what the East does.  I also wonder how "safe" it is: at least with the ad libbing that often happens with the Mass texts nowadays, you can hear it and know it's wrong, but who's to say that a priest reciting a silent canon is actually reciting the canon?  And it was clearly meant to be recited audibly.  

What I really can't get used to is Low Mass.  At least where I go, the silent parts are silent, the audible parts are mumbled, and the Mass is drowned out by the blessed babbling of children and the congregants shifting in their creaking pews and kneelers.  The homily and the Leonine Prayers are the only thing you can hear.  I don't know why the priests can't read the audible parts louder?  The silent canon helps confirm the idea that the Liturgy ought to be mostly silent, if not in theory then in practice.  High Mass, on the other hand, is a sublime experience, at least equal to all the Eastern Liturgies and even better than one or two of them IMO (comparing an average RC parish Mass to an average EO/OO parish Liturgy).  I want to like Low Mass, but no matter how often I attend, I can't.        

I haven't been to enough Low Masses to know- however, I've seen two ends of the NO spectrum- one the closest equivalent to a Tridentine High Mass ,with deacons in dalmatics, properly vested servers, incense, chant and occasionally chanted propers; and the closest thing to a Low Mass, which takes roughly 30 minutes, has one server at best, and the priest mumbles every last word or tries to ad lib and rush their way through. Sadly, I've seen a praise-and-worship laced mixture of the two conducted by even Bishops, most commonly at the LifeTeen events I go to due to being under 25 and in need to get out of my house, yet despise thoroughly.
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« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2013, 11:50:12 PM »

And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.

Not "okay," but at least not a RC problem is all.
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2013, 12:11:24 AM »

And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.

  Not "okay," but at least not a RC problem is all.

But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!
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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2013, 12:24:05 AM »

But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.
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« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2013, 12:28:30 AM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.
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« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2013, 01:08:49 AM »

But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.
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« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2013, 01:20:58 AM »

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.

Well, the daily Mass at my university that I just witnessed was a bit of a barebones/irreverent mess. Half of the people didn't even kneel during the consecration/etc. (I don't know what the parts are that are called that require kneeling). Apparently since it had folding chairs and no kneelers, people just don't kneel. There was a plainclothes eucharistic minister (and female FWIW) up around the altar and then handling the chalice, which still baffles me every time I see it. The priest did it in a rote manner and almost as if he were bored - being older may have something do with it, IDK. I regret going to these sorts of Masses every time the sign of peace stuff comes around, with people walking across the church to hug/shake hands, wave at people, etc. Breaks any reverence that was left, IMO.

OTOH, I have seen a nice, reverent OF Mass done at a wedding to stand in contrast. I really enjoyed it, and it felt a bit more like what I always had expected Catholicism to be. I plan to visit an EF Mass at a classmate's FSSP church soon, which should be good.
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« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2013, 08:35:51 AM »

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.

Well, the daily Mass at my university that I just witnessed was a bit of a barebones/irreverent mess. Half of the people didn't even kneel during the consecration/etc. (I don't know what the parts are that are called that require kneeling). Apparently since it had folding chairs and no kneelers, people just don't kneel. There was a plainclothes eucharistic minister (and female FWIW) up around the altar and then handling the chalice, which still baffles me every time I see it. The priest did it in a rote manner and almost as if he were bored - being older may have something do with it, IDK. I regret going to these sorts of Masses every time the sign of peace stuff comes around, with people walking across the church to hug/shake hands, wave at people, etc. Breaks any reverence that was left, IMO.

OTOH, I have seen a nice, reverent OF Mass done at a wedding to stand in contrast. I really enjoyed it, and it felt a bit more like what I always had expected Catholicism to be. I plan to visit an EF Mass at a classmate's FSSP church soon, which should be good.

FSSP? Oh, it should be good then. I do agree with you that older priest seem more bored- one of the most rote Masses I've seen was at the beautiful shrine of Blessed Father Seelos in New Orleans. Beautiful church, but the priest didn't seem to care much.
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« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2013, 10:09:58 AM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 
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« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2013, 10:40:07 AM »

Mass in the extraordinary form?HuhHuhHuh?? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.

Why they just don't call them "old Mass" and "new Mass" I'll never know.

EF and OF are "technical" terms.  Most people "in the pews" probably refer to them as the "old Mass" and the "new Mass" or just "Mass."

The Vatican uses EF and OF because they want us to believe they are the same liturgical experience just in different forms. 
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« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2013, 10:42:03 AM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 

Translating church services into the language we use everyday has the obvious benefit of accessibility. No quarrel with that, and it is not new. May I suggest that in our very politicised times translating services may then fall under influences which are secular, stem from a world view alien to the mind of Church, and have the objective or purpose of falling into line with values of this world and not that of the Church.

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« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2013, 10:56:42 AM »

The Vatican uses EF and OF because they want us to believe they are the same liturgical experience just in different forms

 Wink
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« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2013, 10:59:23 AM »

The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 

Translating church services into the language we use everyday has the obvious benefit of accessibility. No quarrel with that, and it is not new. May I suggest that in our very politicised times translating services may then fall under influences which are secular, stem from a world view alien to the mind of Church, and have the objective or purpose of falling into line with values of this world and not that of the Church.



You've lost me.  How does translation into the vernacular by church approved translators become alien to the mind of the church?   It is far more preferable than someone believing that Church Slavonic or Latin is somehow a more holy tongue, or indeed the language that God speaks.  If someone is not Orthodox, requiring them to learn a foreign language to participate intelligently and consistently or even to relegate the language of prayer to a dead language seems contrary to the spirit of the Gospel.  
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« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2013, 11:31:33 AM »

Sorry, no intention of losing you.

Translation is never a neutral activity. Examples of secular mores in Bible translation might include so-called inclusive language. Elsewhere there have been calls previously to edit language which some representing the Jewish community. In each case the subject text was not simply to be translated from one language to another, but the text itself 'massaged' to fit in with norms of this age.

I merely express a view. And note that in looking at RC liturgical language change the new text differed in important ways from that that preceded it. So my caution is not without basis.
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« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »

Sorry, no intention of losing you.

Translation is never a neutral activity. Examples of secular mores in Bible translation might include so-called inclusive language. Elsewhere there have been calls previously to edit language which some representing the Jewish community. In each case the subject text was not simply to be translated from one language to another, but the text itself 'massaged' to fit in with norms of this age.

I merely express a view. And note that in looking at RC liturgical language change the new text differed in important ways from that that preceded it. So my caution is not without basis.

Ok.  We are in agreement then that it must be done with caution and faithfulness to the original.  Not a so called dynamic translation as it were. 
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« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2013, 04:26:20 PM »

The division of liturgical services into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" by the modern Roman Church reminds me of the approach adopted by Episcopal Church in America during the 1970s with its "Rite 1" and Rite 2." It all seems very artificial to me.
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« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2013, 04:32:57 PM »

Maybe the same way that Orthodox saw a global shift in a return to traditional iconography in the last century, the Catholics might hope for some global shift to a more traditional liturgy.

I don't judge the situation anymore, it just utterly baffles me how a church could go from being so beautiful and reverent to so campy and inane, so very casual and profane. What the hell happened?
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« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2013, 04:40:20 PM »

Maybe the same way that Orthodox saw a global shift in a return to traditional iconography in the last century, the Catholics might hope for some global shift to a more traditional liturgy.

I don't judge the situation anymore, it just utterly baffles me how a church could go from being so beautiful and reverent to so campy and inane, so very casual and profane. What the hell happened?

Two words: Annibale Bugnini.
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« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2013, 04:41:02 PM »

I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.
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« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2013, 04:58:18 PM »

I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.

Cluttered it was.

The extensive readings for Mass and the Office were a great idea. Abandoning the one Psalter/week scheme and censuring what was deemed unpalatable for the politically correct - not so much.

If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
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« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2013, 05:01:05 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.
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« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2013, 05:01:20 PM »

I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.

Cluttered it was.

The extensive readings for Mass and the Office were a great idea. Abandoning of the one Psalter/week scheme and censuring what was deemed unpalatable for the politically correct - not so much.

If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

So have I. Well-pronounced Latin being the key word here, and not the mumbled sort that can be mistaken for Spanish, French, or some kind of Elvish that the server can't even hear well enough to respond to.
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« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2013, 05:19:23 PM »

What the hell happened?
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« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2013, 05:21:29 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »


The bolded word is what happened, my friends. Either that, or someone's summoning our resident mod.
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2013, 05:23:16 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

Well, if they use for the General intercessions a proper Ektenia...
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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2013, 05:23:38 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
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