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Author Topic: The mass of Paul VI  (Read 7580 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 14, 2013, 01:47:25 PM »

I was wondering, since there is so much variation, in how roman catholics celebrate their liturgies, I have actually never figured out what the "correct" way to celebrate the mass of Paul VI is.

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 02:01:31 PM »

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

Lay people distributing communion alongside with the priest?!


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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 02:04:15 PM »

Pews?!
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 02:25:08 PM »

Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 02:30:48 PM »

Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 02:37:50 PM »

I'm a bit confused about why the title of the video includes the words "Latinsk messe" when, as you say, it's not a Tridentine Mass.

Unfortunately, there isn't really consent about what the correct way to celebrate the Novus Ordo is, but if we were to go by the recommendations of the council which advised the revision (recommending the preservation of Latin and Gregorian chant, while only suggesting a simplification and use of the vernacular), then the answer would probably be "as much like the Tridentine as the rubrics will possibly allow," in other words, the Mass should be celebrated the way it has always been.

(The use of lay or "Extraordinary" ministers of Holy Communion is intended to be a provision for parishes large enough that only having one person distributing communion would lengthen the Mass to a ridiculous extent. However, it is widely taken as a means of getting through the distribution of communion as quickly as possible.)

We used to do basically a Tridentine dialogue Mass in the vernacular; it was a temporary revision of the Mass in 1967 after Vatican II. But apparently that wasn't good enough for some bishops, and Pope Paul VI spent the last years of his papacy trying to fix the mess he'd helped make.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »

Quote
I'm a bit confused about why the title of the video includes the words "Latinsk messe" when, as you say, it's not a Tridentine Mass.

If I understand it correctly, it simply means that it is a latin rite mass.
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 02:45:20 PM »

In what way pope Paul VI tried clear the mess?
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »

I believe his action mostly involved trying to revive the use of traditional chant during the Mass.
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 06:31:29 PM »

Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.

I've always wondered why this was never done.

This may be apocryphal, but supposedly Fr. Alexander Schmemann, when asked his thoughts after observing Vatican II, said, "I'm glad I'm Orthodox."
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 07:29:46 PM »

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

Lay people distributing communion alongside with the priest?!

Common practice at the RC masses I've been to. Good ol' "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion."

Seeing middle-aged women wearing t-shirts and jeans handing out communion was just strange for me. Frankly it still is, whenever I end up at a RC Mass.
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 07:31:42 PM »

Seeing middle-aged women wearing t-shirts and jeans handing out communion was just strange for me. Frankly it still is, whenever I end up at a RC Mass.

That's why I make sure to end up at the right type of RC Mass or none at all.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 10:28:44 PM »

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I don't know what the RC's here think, but this was hands down one of the nicest "Novus Ordo" Masses I've seen.  I haven't seen any "new" Mass done this well in person, even when it was all in Latin and with music, incense, and other rites, broadcasts from the Vatican being the exception. 
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 10:38:54 PM »

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I don't know what the RC's here think, but this was hands down one of the nicest "Novus Ordo" Masses I've seen.  I haven't seen any "new" Mass done this well in person, even when it was all in Latin and with music, incense, and other rites, broadcasts from the Vatican being the exception. 

I think this is another nicely done Novus Ordo/OF Mass. Ad Orientem, even.
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 11:10:19 PM »

I was wondering, since there is so much variation, in how roman catholics celebrate their liturgies, I have actually never figured out what the "correct" way to celebrate the mass of Paul VI is.

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/

If you get EWTN they do it right.
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 01:34:47 AM »

Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.
Sadly no one in the Roman Church is listening to you.

The Mass in the first post is better than many of the Masses in the SF East Bay area. I have actually been to Lutheran services that are very similar.
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 05:18:27 AM »

It's an abomination.  Angry
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2013, 10:18:34 AM »

If the priest would follow the rubrics in the Roman missal the "Mass of Paul VI" can be done reverently and beautifully, but most priest chose the shortest forms and also did whatever they thought looked cute.
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2013, 10:23:35 AM »

Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/
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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 06:58:48 PM »

My husband and I will be attending Mass here (http://www.stmichaelsabbey.com/abbey/) this Sunday. I suspect it won't be much like that video.  Cool
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 11:32:53 AM »

You never know...I've only heard good things about Norbertines, though I've never seen one in real life.  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2013, 11:41:26 AM »

It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2013, 01:04:40 PM »

Are all Danish RC masses like that? I'm fairly suprised how traditional that is. Finnish RC masses are a bit more of a low church.
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2013, 01:16:59 PM »

Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2013, 01:18:15 PM »

It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  Grin
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2013, 01:27:01 PM »

Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.

Didn't Pope Pius X ban baroque music in Mass?
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2013, 03:10:52 PM »

Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.

Didn't Pope Pius X ban baroque music in Mass?
wouldn't baroque music be a great improvement over what Roman churches have now?  Cheesy That being said, the ban may not be applicable to the new rite of the mass.
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 04:10:13 PM »

wouldn't baroque music be a great improvement over what Roman churches have now?  Cheesy

True that  Smiley

That being said, the ban may not be applicable to the new rite of the mass.

I suppose that's indeed the case. Pity, though. Nothing beats Gregorian chant.
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 09:11:49 PM »

It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  Grin
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2013, 09:15:32 PM »

It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  Grin
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.

I agree.  St. Michael's Abbey in Silverton, CA has an exceptional Liturgy and they are very, very orthodox in the Roman Catholic sense. 
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2013, 09:30:49 PM »

It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  Grin
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.
Well this is good news. Glad to hear it.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 08:41:00 PM »

A Benedictine priest says 1962 roman missal every sunday at 11am Twice a month it is sung by a great Schola. AItsits
This is 30min away from me.
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 08:50:20 PM »

For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2013, 09:21:42 PM »

For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

What is the dickens was the YouTube extract supposed to be. And are people supposed to be 'entertained', or worship or what at this dog's dinner? I had previously seen a RC Mass from California with dancing, bowls of incense carried aloft and wondered whether liturgical reform was a polite term for something unrepeatable.
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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2013, 09:24:45 PM »

For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

What is the dickens was the YouTube extract supposed to be. And are people supposed to be 'entertained', or worship or what at this dog's dinner? I had previously seen a RC Mass from California with dancing, bowls of incense carried aloft and wondered whether liturgical reform was a polite term for something unrepeatable.

That YouTube extract was supposed to be some form of Messa Disastrica, I believe. And I spell it "Messa" on purpose. I assume it's some form of pagan Kool-Aid ritual that will end up with the participants dead from either the dancers or their guts being destroyed from the sheer absurdity of this... thing.
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2013, 10:30:29 PM »


Isn't this from a vagante group at least?
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2013, 10:39:55 PM »

How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »

How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2013, 11:09:20 PM »

How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2013, 11:09:41 PM »

And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2013, 11:13:35 PM »

I actually stumbled at the title of the thread.  It seems to suggest that Paul VI was really really fat.  

mass, not capitalized =

mass  (ms)
n.
1. A unified body of matter with no specific shape: a mass of clay.
2. A grouping of individual parts or elements that compose a unified body of unspecified size or quantity: "Take mankind in mass, and for the most part, they seem a mob of unnecessary duplicates" (Herman Melville).
3. A large but nonspecific amount or number: a mass of bruises.
4. A lump or aggregate of coherent material: a cancerous mass.
5. The principal part; the majority: the mass of the continent.
6. The physical volume or bulk of a solid body.
7. Abbr. m Physics A property of matter equal to the measure of an object's resistance to changes in either the speed or direction of its motion. The mass of an object is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight.
8. An area of unified light, shade, or color in a painting.
9. Pharmacology A thick, pasty mixture containing drugs from which pills are formed.
10. masses The body of common people or people of low socioeconomic status: "Give me your tired, your poor,/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" (Emma Lazarus).
tr. & intr.v. massed, mass·ing, mass·es
To gather or be gathered into a mass.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, characteristic of, directed at, or attended by a large number of people: mass education; mass communication.
2. Done or carried out on a large scale: mass production.
3. Total; complete: The mass result is impressive.

Mass, capitalized =

Mass  (ms)
n.
1.
a. Public celebration of the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church and some Protestant churches.
b. The sacrament of the Eucharist.
2. A musical setting of certain parts of the Mass, especially the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.

Catholics don't hold mass.  They hold Mass.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong and the guy really was incredibly fat.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:15:37 PM by newtoorthodoxy » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2013, 01:00:06 AM »

I actually stumbled at the title of the thread.  It seems to suggest that Paul VI was really really fat.  

I think this thread has reached "critical liturgy".  Grin
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2013, 01:07:48 AM »

No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 
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« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2013, 01:11:25 AM »

No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
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« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2013, 01:27:04 AM »

No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy".  

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
We are really quite good at expectorating at the Devil.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 01:28:06 AM by Agabus » Logged

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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
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