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Author Topic: The mass of Paul VI  (Read 5992 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2013, 05:28:55 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.
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« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2013, 05:30:18 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.

The same at my grandmother's- I should know, I am part of the Christmas and Easter quintet. And yes, I mean quintet.
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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2013, 05:32:04 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This would be extraordinarily refreshing!
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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2013, 05:37:48 PM »

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

No lace cottas and rectangular chasubles is considerable improvement! 
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« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2013, 05:38:46 PM »

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

No lace cottas and rectangular chasubles is such an improvement! 

Agreed. Though the polyester roll-collar ponchos are not...
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« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2013, 03:00:26 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   
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« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2013, 03:33:42 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

"Wow" was not the first word in my mind .
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« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2013, 03:41:06 PM »

LOL.  The first word in my mind was actually a compound expletive rhyming with "other ducker", but I settled on "Wow".  Why? 

For the children.   
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« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2013, 03:56:02 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
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« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2013, 04:00:17 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.
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« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2013, 04:05:53 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2013, 04:11:03 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 Cry Cry Cry

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.
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« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2013, 04:15:10 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 Cry Cry Cry

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.
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« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2013, 04:17:16 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 Cry Cry Cry

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.

Oy. Vey.
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« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2013, 04:27:53 PM »

Wow.  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 Cry Cry Cry

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.

Oy. Vey.

That's Yiddish, but the feeling is mutual.
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« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2013, 04:29:17 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860
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« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2013, 04:44:57 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860

Ad orientem and/or a crucifix on the altar and a visible tabernacle, or it doesn't count.  Grin
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« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2013, 04:55:40 PM »

Nope, sorry, I still think the guy is fat. 
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« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2013, 05:09:12 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   Cheesy

Alpo, thanks for posting these videos.  I enjoyed the previous one as well. 
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« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2013, 05:19:40 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   Cheesy

What are you referring to? I've been EO for too many years. I don't recognize Western terms anymore.
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« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2013, 05:21:31 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860

Quite true. I think it depends on the country.

But no wonder the churches in parts of Germany are empty, a few oddities like that and people escape for the mountains...

When  you watch videos like Alpo posted you can envision those things which we share with the Romans, while the circus mass exentuates that which keeps us apart.

We Orthodox may have jurisdictional chaos, but we do not have liturgical or theological chaos. Seems there should be a happy medium out there somewhere to deal with both types of chaos, you'd think......
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« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2013, 05:22:20 PM »

The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  
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« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2013, 05:24:05 PM »

European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   Cheesy

What are you referring to? I've been EO for too many years. I don't recognize Western terms anymore.

It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.
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« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2013, 05:27:28 PM »

It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.

Is it really, though?  It comes after the reading, not before. 
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« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2013, 05:30:21 PM »

It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.

Is it really, though?  It comes after the reading, not before. 

But it comes before the Epistle.
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« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2013, 05:35:26 PM »

The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  

One k too much. It's "Habakuk" in here.

And apparently you were correct about the hymn after OT reading being Gradual. Is that somehow wrong?
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« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2013, 06:35:11 PM »

The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  

One k too much. It's "Habakuk" in here.

Habakkuk has three K's in the USA.  Tongue

Quote
And apparently you were correct about the hymn after OT reading being Gradual. Is that somehow wrong?

Not wrong at all, on the contrary it's ideal.  Would that it was done more. 
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« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2013, 06:39:04 PM »

But it comes before the Epistle.

This is only the case when the Mass has three readings.  When the Mass has two readings (Epistle and Gospel), which is always in the EF and on all feasts, memorials, and ferias in the OF, the Gradual occupies its traditional place: after the first reading. 

I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 
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« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2013, 06:42:01 PM »

But it comes before the Epistle.

This is only the case when the Mass has three readings.  When the Mass has two readings (Epistle and Gospel), which is always in the EF and on all feasts, memorials, and ferias in the OF, the Gradual occupies its traditional place: after the first reading. 

I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 

Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.
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« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2013, 06:44:36 PM »

LOL.  The first word in my mind was actually a compound expletive rhyming with "other ducker", but I settled on "Wow".  Why? 

For the children.   

I couldn't stand watching the whole thing, so I skipped around.  One part looked like a dinner theater.  Unbelievable.
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« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2013, 06:45:43 PM »

I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 

Until about the fifth century, it included singing a whole psalm. They were sung in the form of a psalmus responsorius, i.e. the whole text was chanted by a reader appointed for this purpose. For some time before Pope Gregory I, to sing these psalms was a privilege of deacons at Rome, a privilege he suppressed in 595. The people answered each clause or verse with an acclamation. This apparently dates back to the synagogue tradition, and can even be seen in the structure of some Psalms (such as 136|135). Originally, there was a psalm sung between each reading, of which in the fifth century there were three (Prophets, Epistle, and Gospel). When the Old Testament reading was later dropped, the other two psalms became the Gradual and Alleluia, ordinarily sung one after another, until the 1970 Missal restored the three readings on Sundays and Solemnities.

The fact that the chanters go to the centre of the church/ambo to sing it could serve to compare it to the katabasiai, but those are not Psalms and are sung at Matins.
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« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2013, 06:47:34 PM »

Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

Actually, I shouldn't have said the EF Mass always has two readings, there are certain occasions (e.g., Ember days) when there are more.  But never does a Gradual introduce a reading, it is always a response to the reading. 

What is SAP Vespers?  Vespers dubbed in Spanish? 
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« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2013, 06:47:52 PM »



If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.

The same at my grandmother's- I should know, I am part of the Christmas and Easter quintet. And yes, I mean quintet.

I've seen it done well at St. Catherine of Siena in Great Falls, VA, and the Brompton Oratory in London.
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« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2013, 06:49:56 PM »

Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

Actually, I shouldn't have said the EF Mass always has two readings, there are certain occasions (e.g., Ember days) when there are more.  But never does a Gradual introduce a reading, it is always a response to the reading. 

What is SAP Vespers?  Vespers dubbed in Spanish? 

Sundays after Pentecost.
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« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2013, 06:53:52 PM »

Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

No - only for Feasts of Our Lord, the Theotokos and the more important Saints.

They occur primarily during Lent, because they originally served for the instruction of catechumens.
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« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2013, 07:04:04 PM »

Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

No - only for Feasts of Our Lord, the Theotokos and the more important Saints.

They occur primarily during Lent, because they originally served for the instruction of catechumens.

Oh. That explains the number of readings in my abbreviated Triodion. Thanks.
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« Reply #126 on: November 08, 2013, 05:40:53 PM »

FWIW I just spent a week on retreat at St. Andrew's Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in Valyermo, CA (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/). Attended Mass every day in the "ordinary" form and it was quite simple and reverent.

Of course they also do the canonical Hours.

No clowns or circus animals in sight (just two big German shepherds and lots of ducks).

Not to mention having FANTASTIC food at every meal!  Grin
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« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2013, 04:47:07 PM »

FWIW I just spent a week on retreat at St. Andrew's Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in Valyermo, CA (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/). Attended Mass every day in the "ordinary" form and it was quite simple and reverent.

Of course they also do the canonical Hours.

No clowns or circus animals in sight (just two big German shepherds and lots of ducks).

Not to mention having FANTASTIC food at every meal!  Grin

And I just spent the weekend on retreat at St. Joseph's Abbey and Seminary, a Benedictine monastery in St. Bens, Louisiana. Attended OF Mass, Lauds, vespers and Compline each day, and it was done reverently as well. And all the seminarians and my fellow possible seminarians I met on retreat? Traditional and orthodox in doctrine, and in favour of Ad orientem and knowledgeable of both the Byzantine and Latin Rite.
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« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2013, 06:36:30 PM »

Yes - I think if you are disillusioned with how the Mass is done at your parish church, do some research and find a monastery. Chances are pretty good it will be pretty good.  Cool
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« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2013, 06:42:05 PM »

We Orthodox may have jurisdictional chaos, but we do not have liturgical or theological chaos.

Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
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« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2013, 06:51:14 PM »

Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services. 
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« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2013, 08:27:06 PM »

Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services. 

This, and I'd say yes - the Ethiopian Church is an Orthodox Church. Cool

BTW, do Ethiopians call their service Divine Liturgy or something else?
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« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2013, 02:43:58 AM »

Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services.  
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
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« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2013, 11:41:11 AM »

The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

Does anyone think this is a fair comparison?

On the one hand, the "lively elements" in the Ethiopian liturgy have been practiced for centuries and stem from their own culture, influenced in particular by Judaism as well as Christianity.  It may be "lively" compared to a more "sedate" tradition like Greek or Latin liturgy, but it is still traditional and of venerable pedigree. 

Regarding the Roman Catholic liturgy you referred to, can you or any Roman Catholic demonstrate that the liturgy was served according to the norms of currently issued liturgical books, and that the ebullient, exuberant rites and customs incorporated therein are traditional to the Roman rite? 

If not, you are comparing apples and koalas.   
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« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2013, 11:44:34 AM »

The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

If I'm not mistaken, the more "lively" parts of EOTC worship are concentrated during their version of the Hours. I don't think they use liturgical instruments and such during the Liturgy itself.
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